Apostolic succession?

[KiwiChristian]

Catholics claim that the present day bishops and priests in the Catholic Church are successors to the apostles, being inheritors of their power and authority. This CANNOT be true. The Catholic bishops and priests were NOT promised the power from on high nor commanded to wait in Jerusalem to receive it (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4,8). They have NO authority because they are not inspired of the Holy Spirit NOR are they eyewitnesses of Jesus (John 20:22-23; Acts 1:8, 21-26).They CANNOT  prove their authority by speaking in tongues, prophesying and working miracles (2 Cor. 12:12). They are NOT the chosen ambassadors who were selected to deliver God's message or "the faith" to mankind (Eph. 3:3-4; Jude 3). Moreover, they CANNOT be successors to the apostles and prophets because the ONLY infallible succession to them are the inspired writings (2 Pet. 1:15; 3:1; 2 Tim. 3:14-17).

[winsome]

  Your claim is a jumble of concepts and irrelevant scripture passages. It seems you do not understand the concept of authority and apostolic succession

What is authority and how do we get it?

Authority is the power and legitimacy to require others to do something.

Legitimacy is the right to require others to do something.
Power is the ability make others do something.

A person can have legitimacy without power (e.g. a king in exile)
A person might have power but no legitimacy (e.g. the usurper who exiled the king)

If someone has authority, then when they give someone a task, a mission, an office under their authority, then they give them the authority that goes with it. 
This consists of the power to act and to speak in their name (within the scope of the authority they give them).

We can see this in Jesus. His authority comes from the Father. In Mt 28:18 he says:
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

But earlier than that he said
Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. (Jn 5:19)
and
When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me. (Jn 8:28)
Jesus acts and speaks in his Father's name.

(to be continued - I'm breaking this up as long posts keep crashing out)

[winsome]

One of the features of authority is that it is exercised by persons, and it is passed from some to has it to someone who does not have it, normally under them in a hierarchy.
You can see this most visibly in, for example, the Army as in this example from the Bible in Mt 8:5-10

A Centurion with a sick servant approaches Jesus and asks him to cure his servant.

Verse 9 is a key verse For I am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes, and to another, 'Come,' and he comes

The Centurion has authority because of his rank, given him by those above him. I don't know the exact structure of the Roman Army but ultimately his authority comes from Caesar himself. When he gives an order to a soldier it was as if Caesar himself was standing there giving the order. The Centurion acts and speaks in the name of Caesar. To disobey the Centurion was to disobey Caesar.

Or we could put it another way - for a soldier to listen to the centurion was to listen to Caesar; to reject the centurion was to reject Caesar.

When the centurion said to Jesus "For I too am a person under authority" he was acknowledging that Jesus too had authority from above and that his word was sufficient to cure his servant Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be healed..(verse 8) This is why Jesus was astonished at the faith of the centurion.

When Jesus heard him, he marvelled, and said to those who followed him, "Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith." (verse 10).

(to be continued)

[winsome]

Now move on to Luke 9:1-6 and Luke 10:1-6 Jesus enunciates these two principles with the disciples he send out on mission.
And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal. (Lk 9:1-2)

He gives them authority to act and authority to speak in his name. And he sums this up in verse 16 - Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

That is a universal principle when Jesus gives someone a task, a mission, an office under his authority, they act and speak in Jesus' name.

Thus when Jesus sends the apostles out on the great mission with the great commission in Mt 28:19-20
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." He gives the apostles the authority to act and to speak in his name, and the "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." applies to them.

The NT gives us an example of people trying to usurp authority:
Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to pronounce the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches." Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this. But the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?" And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, mastered all of them, and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.. (Acts 19:13-16).

They had no authority to act or speak in Jesus' name and the evil spirits knew that.

(to be continued)

[winsome]

Now go back to the Old Testament.
In Ex 3&4 God gives Moses a mission and gives him authority to act and speak for God. Moses is reluctant because of his poor speech so God put Aaron under Moses' authority to speak on Moses behalf. (4:14-15). But note what God says to Moses in verse 16 He shall speak for you to the people; and he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God.
We see this in the plagues where God told Moses and Moses told Aaron who acted.

Now move on to Numbers 12 where we see a warning about trying to claim authority you do not have. Aaron and Miriam grumble about Moses and thinking they are just as good as him.

and they said, "Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?" (vs 2).

God was angry and called all three of them to the meeting tent and said to them (vs 6-8)
And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision, I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in dark speech; and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
He then turned Miriam into a leper.

(to be continued)

[winsome]

Just before giving the apostles the great commission in Mt 28:19-20, Jesus says:
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Jesus has all authority. He gave authority to the apostles to go out making disciples and preaching the word.

Some Christians will claim they get authority from the Bible. But they cannot. Authority is given by a person. It does not reside in a book. Authority must come from Jesus. We must not usurp authority by claiming what we have not been given.

(to be continued)

[winsome]

So who speaks and acts for Jesus now? Who has his authority?

Perhaps we can answer this by asking - whom did Jesus leave to act and speak for him?
Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (Jn 20:21-22)

Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Mt 18:18)

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age. (Mt 28-19-20)

But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Jn 14:26)

But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. (Jn 16:13)

In all these quotations Jesus was speaking to the apostles (the leaders of the Church). It was the apostles that Jesus left to act and speak for him, guided by the Holy Spirit.

(to be continued)

[winsome]

John writes We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit. (1Jn 4:6)

And whom did the apostles leave to speak for Jesus in their turn?

Paul passed on to Timothy what he himself received:
Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us. (2 Tim 1:13-14)

And instructs him to proclaim what he has received
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. (2 Tim 4:1-2)

Paul instructs Timothy to pass the sound teaching and good treasure to faithful people in his turn
So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.  And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. (2Tim 2:1-2)

In first place among these faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching are the bishops:
For a bishop as God's steward must be blameless, ......holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents. (Ti 1:7,9)

The apostles left those whom they appointed to their offices - the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the same Holy Spirit.

(to be continued)

[winsome]

This is witnessed by the early church as these examples from the first two centuries demonstrate:
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier.... Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry." (Pope Clement, fourth Bishop of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians 42:4-5, 44:1-3 [A.D. 80]).

In the same way all should respect the deacons as they would Jesus Christ, just as they respect the bishop as representing the Father and the priests as the council of God and the college of the Apostles. Apart from these there is nothing that can be called a Church. (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Trallians, AD 107)

"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord" (Hegesippus, Memoirs 4:22:1 [ca. A.D. 180]).

"For all these [heretics] are of much later date than are the bishops to whom the apostles handed over the churches, and this fact I pointed out most carefully in the third book. It is of necessity, then, that these aforementioned heretics, because they are blind to the truth, walk in devious paths, and on this account the vestiges of their doctrines are scattered about without agreement or connection. The path of those, however, who belong to the Church goes around the whole world, for it has the firm tradition of the apostles, enabling us to see that the faith of all is one and the same" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies. 5:20:1 AD 180-199).

"Polycarp was instructed not only by the apostles and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna by the apostles in Asia. I saw him in my early youth, for he tarried a long time and when quite old departed this life in a glorious and most noble martyrdom. He always taught those things which he learned from the apostles and which the Church had handed down and which are true. To these things the churches in Asia bear witness, as do also the successors of Polycarp even to the present time" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:3:4 AD 180-199)

"After the death of the tyrant, [the apostle John] came back again to Ephesus from the Island of Patmos; and, upon being invited, he went even to the neighboring cities of the pagans, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole churches, and there to ordain to the clerical state such as were designated by the Spirit" ( Clement of Alexandria, Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 42:2 [A.D. 190]).

(End! Sorry about all the posts but it seems to be the only way to make a long post)

[Open Heart]

Catholics claim that the present day bishops and priests in the Catholic Church are successors to the apostles, being inheritors of their power and authority. This CANNOT be true. The Catholic bishops and priests were NOT promised the power from on high nor commanded to wait in Jerusalem to receive it (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4,8). They have NO authority because they are not inspired of the Holy Spirit NOR are they eyewitnesses of Jesus (John 20:22-23; Acts 1:8, 21-26).They CANNOT  prove their authority by speaking in tongues, prophesying and working miracles (2 Cor. 12:12). They are NOT the chosen ambassadors who were selected to deliver God's message or "the faith" to mankind (Eph. 3:3-4; Jude 3). Moreover, they CANNOT be successors to the apostles and prophets because the ONLY infallible succession to them are the inspired writings (2 Pet. 1:15; 3:1; 2 Tim. 3:14-17).

All of this is just your personal opinion, your verses do not support your points.

Additionally, much of it is directly proven wrong by real life.

• Bishops are inspired by the Holy Spirit when they all come together a group (ecumenical councils). 
  Bishops have gifts of the spirit like anyone else, including sometimes miraculous gifts such as healing (Several of our last popes have had the gift of miraculous healing). There are instances where they speak infallibly (meaning they are guided by the Holy Spirit to utter prophecy to edify the church), such as ecumenical council or when the Pope speaks ex cathedra.

[Isaias]

Your claim is a jumble of concepts and irrelevant scripture passages. It seems you do not understand the concept of authority and apostolic succession

What is authority and how do we get it?

Authority is the power and legitimacy to require others to do something.

Legitimacy is the right to require others to do something.
Power is the ability make others do something.

A person can have legitimacy without power (e.g. a king in exile)
A person might have power but no legitimacy (e.g. the usurper who exiled the king)

If someone has authority, then when they give someone a task, a mission, an office under their authority, then they give them the authority that goes with it. 
This consists of the power to act and to speak in their name (within the scope of the authority they give them).

We can see this in Jesus. His authority comes from the Father. In Mt 28:18 he says:
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

But earlier than that he said
Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. (Jn 5:19)
and
When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me. (Jn 8:28)
Jesus acts and speaks in his Father's name.

(to be continued - I'm breaking this up as long posts keep crashing out)

Winsome, 'protesters' residing in the church of man, will always pervert the Catholic bible to their own liking.  The fact of the matter is that the Catholic church is a government, with a hierarchy.

Isaias 9:6-7 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace. [7] His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom;

Luke 1:31-32 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father;

The Throne of David, Solomon's Temple, is a foreshadow of the Catholic church in the new testament.  By the way, infallibility was specifically introduced with the sanctification of Solomon's Temple.

3 kings 9:3, 5  And the Lord said to him: I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, which thou hast made before me: I have sanctified this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever, and my eyes and my heart shall be there always. ... I will establish the throne of thy kingdom over Israel for ever, as I promised David thy father, saying: There shall not fail a man of thy race upon the throne of Israel.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

Protesters always say that there is no other foundation, other than Jesus Christ, and this is true.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus.

But Jesus gives His authority to His ambassador and His hierarchy on Earth i.e. St. Peter and his successors and the bishops of the Catholic church.

Apocalypse 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them, the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Succession is introduced with Abram.  God establishes a contract with Abram.  God signifies this contract by changing the name of Abram, to Abraham, signifying a new role, a new character, as leader and father of God's people.  God said that Kings shall come out of thee.  God also calls Abraham a rock.

Genesis 17:1-7  And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him: I am the Almighty God: walk before me, and be perfect.  And I will make my covenant between me and thee: and I will multiply thee exceedingly.  Abram fell flat on his face.  And God said to him: I AM, and my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.  Neither shall thy name be called any more Abram: but thou shalt be called Abraham: because I have made thee a father of many nations.  And I will make thee increase, exceedingly, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and between thy seed after thee in their generations, by a perpetual covenant:

Isaias 51:1-2 Give ear to me, you that follow that which is just, and you that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence you are hewn, and to the hole of the pit from which you are dug out.  Look unto Abraham your father, and to Sara that bore you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and multiplied him.

God is consistent and is not a liar and so He does it again with Jacob.  God changes the name of Jacob, to Israel and say the same things, as Abraham.  God calls Jacob a rock i.e stone and a pastor.

Genesis 35:9-12 And God appeared again to Jacob, after he returned from Mesopotamia of Syria, and he blessed him,  Saying: Thou shalt not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name. And he called him Israel.  And said to him: I am God Almighty, increase thou and be multiplied. Nations and peoples of nations shall be from thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins.  And the land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac, I will give to thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis 49:24 His bow rested upon the strong, and the bands of his arms and his hands were loosed, by the hands of the mighty one of Jacob: thence he came forth a pastor, the stone of Israel.

See the consistency, the changing of the name of God's chosen leader, God calling His leader a rock.  Articulating succession, "I will give to thee and to thy seed after thee".

This consistent language continues and is found in the book of Isaias, concerning the keys and the power to bind and loose.
By the way, I took these verses below from the KJV.  The KJV proves the Papacy!

Isaias 22:20-22 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah: And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.  And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

All the language in totality, that is provided above, points right to Matthew 16:16-19.  God the Father calls [selects] Peter, just like Eliacim.  Jesus changes the name of Simon Bar-Jona to Peter [Kepha] and calls Peter [Kepha] a rock, just like Abraham and Israel.  Jesus gives the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter and gives Peter the power to bind and loose, just like Eliacim. 

Matthew 16-16-19  Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.  And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.  And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Malachias 3:6 For I am the Lord, and I change not:

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor as the son of man, that he should be changed. Hath he said then, and will he not do? hath he spoken, and will he not fulfill?

The Bible Proves The Papacy!


<links removed as per forum rules-please read them>

[winsome]

Winsome, 'protesters' residing in the church of man, will always pervert the Catholic bible to their own liking. 

You mean like your "Most Holy Family Monastery" bunch of heretics.

[4WD]

Winsome, 'protesters' residing in the church of man, will always pervert the Catholic bible to their own liking.  The fact of the matter is that the Catholic church is a government, with a hierarchy.

And that is the fundamental problem.  It was never so in the NT churches.  That is precisely how the Catholic Church has bastardized the church of the New Testament.  There were no popes, cardinals or even bishops [as presented by the CC] in the NT congregations.  There was never any suggestion in the NT to establish such a government with the hierarchy the CC has created.

But Jesus gives His authority to His ambassador and His hierarchy on Earth i.e. St. Peter and his successors and the bishops of the Catholic church.

No such succession was ever presented in the NT.  That is a fabrication of the CC.

Succession is introduced with Abram.  God establishes a contract with Abram.  God signifies this contract by changing the name of Abram, to Abraham, signifying a new role, a new character, as leader and father of God's people.  God said that Kings shall come out of thee.  God also calls Abraham a rock.

Another mistake by the CC.  But then you are not alone in that mistake.  Israel, under the Law, was a theocracy with God specifically at the head.  But even here Israel got it wrong and insisted upon some earthly sovereigns to be like the nations around them.  But in the NT no such theocratic institute or installation was established.  The congregations [the churches] were strictly made up of individuals who believed and obeyed the gospel.  Admittedly there were elders [shepherds, bishops] given leadership over the individual congregations, and they are always mentioned in the plural  --  elders not an elder [shepherd, bishop].  And there is never any indication that a single leader was ever in charge of a congregation, let alone several congregations.  Any pretense to apply the theocracy of the nation Israel under the Law to the NT church is a tragic mistake.

The Bible Proves The Papacy!

Complete Bovine Scat.

[Isaias]

I just gave it to you.  But you being a protester, you cannot be helped because you choose to be the king over your own life instead of submitting to God's established office of the Papacy.  Core did the same thing and the ground opened up on him and his fellow cohorts.  I feel sorry for you. 

2 Corinthians 4:3 And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost,

[4WD]

SICK

[Isaias]

SICK

Yes, you are spiritually sick!

1 Corinthians 11:30  Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

[4WD]

Yes, you are spiritually sick!

But certainly not as sick as your Marxist pope.

[4WD]

Isaias, I really do not think that you want to begin Protestant Bashing in this Forum.  That is a loser.

[Isaias]

Isaias, I really do not think that you want to begin Protestant Bashing in this Forum.  That is a loser.

Should I say hypocrisy, you call Catholic scripture sick, and I respond that you are infirm.  Really, bashing?  Wow.

[Isaias]

You mean like your "Most Holy Family Monastery" bunch of heretics.

You make statements without citing anything that they have said that is heretical and which would mean that you have the correct information to proffer to prove that they are heretical.  But you can't.  This is very common, with liars.

[AVZ]

You mean like your "Most Holy Family Monastery" bunch of heretics.

Its a good thing the Catholic Church doesn't have this self-proclaimed possession of the keys of heaven.
With all these Catholic groups declaring the others heretic, not a single Catholic would ever make it there.

[4WD]

Should I say hypocrisy, you call Catholic scripture sick, and I respond that you are infirm.  Really, bashing?  Wow.

I said nothing about you.  I made no mention of your condition, your intellect, or anything about you. But you, not so much.  Yours was an ad hominem attack.

And that wasn't Catholic scripture that I referred to.  It was the really, really bad interpretation of Scripture; inserting popes, papcy, etc. into the Word of God when no such thing is there.

[Isaias]

I said nothing about you.  I made no mention of your condition, your intellect, or anything about you. But you, not so much.  Yours was an ad hominem attack.

And that wasn't Catholic scripture that I referred to.  It was the really, really bad interpretation of Scripture; inserting popes, papcy, etc. into the Word of God when no such thing is there.

The only attempt [failed] that a protestant can make to refute the Catholic position is misinterpretation, misquote etc.  Human history must correspond with scripture. 

Pope Pius X - 1910 THE OATH AGAINST MODERNISM
"... I also reject the error of those who say that the faith held by the Church can contradict history, and that Catholic dogmas, in the sense in which they are now understood, are irreconcilable with a more realistic view of the origins of the Christian religion. I also condemn and reject the opinion of those who say that a well-educated Christian assumes a dual personality-that of a believer and at the same time of a historian, as if it were permissible for a historian to hold things that contradict the faith of the believer,...

Protestants never go head to head with verses and history because their mutilated understanding of scripture will be exposed.  And I don't say this with contempt, truly, but it is almost always received with malice.

[4WD]

The only attempt [failed] that a protestant can make to refute the Catholic position is misinterpretation, misquote etc.  Human history must correspond with scripture. 

Pope Pius X - 1910 THE OATH AGAINST MODERNISM
"... I also reject the error of those who say that the faith held by the Church can contradict history, and that Catholic dogmas, in the sense in which they are now understood, are irreconcilable with a more realistic view of the origins of the Christian religion. I also condemn and reject the opinion of those who say that a well-educated Christian assumes a dual personality-that of a believer and at the same time of a historian, as if it were permissible for a historian to hold things that contradict the faith of the believer,...

Protestants never go head to head with verses and history because their mutilated understanding of scripture will be exposed.  And I don't say this with contempt, truly, but it is almost always received with malice.

I repeat, it was the really, really bad interpretation of Scripture; inserting popes, papacy, cardinals. archbishops, priests, etc. into the Word of God when no such reference to any of that is there.  Talk about mutilated understanding of Scripture.  There is not much worse than that trying to insert the earthly governance and hierarchy of the Catholic Church into the Scriptures. There is almost nothing in the NT that speaks to that governance and hierarchy and that is for very good reason.  Such was never intended in the body of Christ.

[Isaias]

I repeat, it was the really, really bad interpretation of Scripture; inserting popes, papacy, cardinals. archbishops, priests, etc. into the Word of God when no such reference to any of that is there.  Talk about mutilated understanding of Scripture.  There is not much worse than that trying to insert the earthly governance and hierarchy of the Catholic Church into the Scriptures. There is almost nothing in the NT that speaks to that governance and hierarchy and that is for very good reason.  Such was never intended in the body of Christ.

I would like to separate what you said.
"There is almost nothing in the NT that speaks to that governance and hierarchy and that is for very good reason.  Such was never intended in the body of Christ."


You say there is ALMOST nothing that speaks to governance and hierarchy, which means that there is.  But in reality, according to scripture, governance and hierarchy is all over the new testament.  The word "Apostle" is interchangeable with "Bishop".  And there is the word "deacon" which proves a hierarchy.  A deacon is lower in rank.  St. Paul even declares that he and all his brethren share in the heavenly vocation of the priesthood i.e. Jesus Christ!  He says that Jesus Christ is an Apostle.

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly vocation, consider the apostle and high priest of our confession, Jesus:"
   
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of the elect of God and the acknowledging of the truth, which is according to godliness:"
   
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers dispersed through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect,"

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Acts 1:16-17,   Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus:  Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. ... And his bishopric let another take.

Titus 1:7  For a bishop must be without crime, as the steward of God: not proud, not subject to anger, not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre:"

1 Peter 2:25 For you were as sheep going astray; but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls."

Phillippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ; to all the saints in Christ Jesus, who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons.

1 Timothy 3:1-2,8,12  A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.  It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, ... Deacons in like manner chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre: ... Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses.

[4WD]

Isaias,

First there were only 12 apostles of Jesus Christ plus Paul. So, none of that speaks to your succession nonsense.  Second, elder, bishop and shepherd all speak to the same person or office, not three separate ones.  And again, with reference to the elders [bishops shepherds] they are all spoken of in the plural for any given congregation. Third, nothing in any of that speaks of popes, cardinals, archbishops, etc.

[Isaias]

It seems unless you are hand fed, with the most rudimentary words, and in such a direct manner, so that your are not required to use any effort in thinking and contemplation, or research as to how God speaks and works, you will not believe.  This is why Jesus spoke in parables.  He knew that many, did not have a real interest in Him.