The Old Testement & The New Testement ?

[grams]

I wonder how many really do understand the difference that there is ?
From the old testament and the new testament ??

Becoming saved is so much different.

From the time before JESUS and

The time after the Cross........ ??

[Alan]

The law doesn't save, I don't think anyone disputes that. What people still dispute is the relevance of the law today. Was it abolished, accomplished, fulfilled, put aside, or still in effect? 


Could counter with many questions here but I'll leave it at that.

[notreligus]

The law doesn't save, I don't think anyone disputes that. What people still dispute is the relevance of the law today. Was it abolished, accomplished, fulfilled, put aside, or still in effect? 


Could counter with many questions here but I'll leave it at that.

Alan, Grams is Mid-Acts Dispensationalist.   Take some time to learn something about this doctrine. It is a system used to "rightly divide" the Bible.   This is also known as Hyper-Dispensationalism.  It's not the same as the Dispensationalism taught by Darby or Scofield.   

[faroukfarouk]

I wonder how many really do understand the difference that there is ?
From the old testament and the new testament ??

Becoming saved is so much different.

From the time before JESUS and

The time after the Cross........ ??

Ms. grams: John 1.17 sums it up:

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

[Choir Loft]

The law doesn't save, I don't think anyone disputes that. What people still dispute is the relevance of the law today. Was it abolished, accomplished, fulfilled, put aside, or still in effect? 


Could counter with many questions here but I'll leave it at that.

Ignorance of the Law is a primary reason for the dilution of the gospel today.  Licentiousness is taught, sin is embraced and the need of repentance is ignored.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

"I did not come to abolish the Law.  I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

The Law IS relevant, for without it one cannot be saved. 

What is the purpose of the Law?  Does the reader know? 

Acts 3:19 reiterates the absolute necessity of repentance.  No prayer of the sinner will be heard by God except the prayer of repentance.  How then may one know repentance is needed?   One knows by looking into the Law.   The Law displays our sin as God sees it.   Think of it like a bathroom mirror.  You cannot know if your face is dirty until you look into the mirror.   The mirror will show the need for cleansing, but the mirror alone cannot make clean.   We need soap for that.

The purpose of the Law is to convict of sin.

Salvation begins with the Law, but having begun it can only be completed (fulfilled) by the cleansing grace of the blood of the Lamb (Christ Jesus).  As He gave His life a sacrifice for many, so we must accept it to be made clean even as we must use soap to wash our faces.

In this way also immersion is required as an outward physical demonstration of our death to self and a rebirth to new life in Christ.

The purpose of the blood is to cleanse of unrighteousness, in fulfillment of the Law.

The Law reveals our need to repent,
the Law requires death as payment for sin,
the Law is fulfilled by Christ's death upon the cross for us,
the Law provides forgiveness by grace,
SO AS to live a life that is approved of by God - according to the Law.   

So we see the Law begins, applies, and sanctifies the process of salvation.  The Law is not abolished.  It is the very source expectation and application of salvation. 

John 8:1-11 chronicles the incident of a woman caught in adultery.   Jesus is present and forgives her, BUT Our Lord admonishes her to "go and sin no more".    Jesus does not give her permission to open a brothel or to continue adulterous affairs.   Jesus upholds the Law at all points; past, present and future.

The relevance of an appreciation of the Law and obedience to the Law has never been more urgent or obvious than today.   The modern age does not make the Law irrelevant.  The modern age makes it imperative, urgent and an absolute necessity!  Violence murder theft and lies and all manner of wickedness have come upon us like a tsunami of sin.   It is impossible to honor God, to expect answers to prayer and to hope for the miracle of salvation without it!

The only relevant answer to the tribulation of the modern age is a return to the Law - to an appreciation of its role in true religion and personal salvation.  The solution to lawLessNess is not licentiousness, but a sincere humble and fully dedicated act to obey the Law and to trust He who gave it to us.   

There is no other way.    Jesus did not abolish the Law.  He fulfilled it.   Therefore it falls to us to follow the example of the Son of God in all ways at all times.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Alan]

Ignorance of the Law is a primary reason for the dilution of the gospel today.  Licentiousness is taught, sin is embraced and the need of repentance is ignored.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

"I did not come to abolish the Law.  I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

The Law IS relevant, for without it one cannot be saved. 

What is the purpose of the Law?  Does the reader know? 

Acts 3:19 reiterates the absolute necessity of repentance.  No prayer of the sinner will be heard by God except the prayer of repentance.  How then may one know repentance is needed?   One knows by looking into the Law.   The Law displays our sin as God sees it.   Think of it like a bathroom mirror.  You cannot know if your face is dirty until you look into the mirror.   The mirror will show the need for cleansing, but the mirror alone cannot make clean.   We need soap for that.

The purpose of the Law is to convict of sin.

Salvation begins with the Law, but having begun it can only be completed (fulfilled) by the cleansing grace of the blood of the Lamb (Christ Jesus).  As He gave His life a sacrifice for many, so we must accept it to be made clean even as we must use soap to wash our faces.

In this way also immersion is required as an outward physical demonstration of our death to self and a rebirth to new life in Christ.

The purpose of the blood is to cleanse of unrighteousness, in fulfillment of the Law.

The Law reveals our need to repent,
the Law requires death as payment for sin,
the Law is fulfilled by Christ's death upon the cross for us,
the Law provides forgiveness by grace,
SO AS to live a life that is approved of by God - according to the Law.   

So we see the Law begins, applies, and sanctifies the process of salvation.  The Law is not abolished.  It is the very root and application of salvation. 

John 8:1-11 chronicles the incident of a woman caught in adultery.   Jesus is present and forgives her, BUT Our Lord admonishes her to "go and sin no more".    Jesus does not give her permission to open a brothel or to continue adulterous affairs.   Jesus upholds the Law at all points; past, present and future.

The relevance of an appreciation of the Law and obedience to the Law has never been more urgent or obvious than today.   The modern age does not make the Law irrelevant.  The modern age makes it imperative, urgent and an absolute necessity!  Violence murder theft and lies and all manner of wickedness have come upon us like a tsunami of sin.   The only relevant answer is an appeal to the Law once again.  The solution to lawLessNess is not licentiousness, but a sincere humble and fully dedicated act to obey the Law and to trust He who gave it to us.   

There is no other way.    Jesus did not abolish the Law.  He fulfilled it.   Therefore it falls to us to follow the example of the Son of God in all ways at all times.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I don't necessarily disagree with the necessity of the law but I also don't necessarily agree with how some seem to believe the law should be administered in this new covenant. Certainly the law is not be held to the letter.

[Choir Loft]

I don't necessarily disagree with the necessity of the law but I also don't necessarily agree with how some seem to believe the law should be administered in this new covenant. Certainly the law is not be held to the letter.

Certainly it is to be held to the letter. 

Which part of the Law is to be excused?  Are we now allowed to lie cheat and steal?  We are not. 
Is it appropriate to misrepresent our neighbor or to covet his goods or to have an adulterous affair with his wife? It is not.
Is it allowable to murder for personal advantage?  It is not, even when such advantages apply to a government or corporation.
Is it now permissible to pledge our allegiance to a government or is such allegiance reserved only for God?  It is for God alone (1st commandment).

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

It has never been allowable to sin and it never will be.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is doing you a disservice.

How is the Law to be administered?

The Law tells us it is to be administered by each person individually to their own benefit or shame. 

The Law declares each person must present themselves personally before God where they offer a sacrifice for their sin. 
According to the Law when the act of submission and sacrifice is consummated, God promises to forgive our sin.   
If a person refuses to submit to the Law they die according to the Law. (Ezekiel 18:20) 
A personal act must be performed personally and will result in personal salvation. 
It is a matter of the heart administered by the heart and obeyed by the heart - according to the Law.

The sacrifice for sin in the person of Jesus Christ is offered for all, but must be appropriated and administered individually.

Administration of laws of human society are similar.  Those that deny the law and disobey it are summarily judged and penalized for breaking it.  In the Kingdom of Heaven it is God's Law that requires obedience and our own disdain for it that condemns us.   

The glory of the gospel is that God has provided the penalty of sin, to forgive that which we have done and to help us live according to the Law.   The caveat is that we must ask for it and receive it.  In living our lives according to the Law, each of us must bear our own cross - in whatever form that make take.  (Matthew 16:24) 

In this too God is our help. (Matthew 27:32)  Jesus did not bear His cross alone and neither do we, though bear it we must. 

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[4WD]

deleted

[Ginger Rella]

Ignorance of the Law is a primary reason for the dilution of the gospel today.  Licentiousness is taught, sin is embraced and the need of repentance is ignored.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

"I did not come to abolish the Law.  I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17


There is no other way.    Jesus did not abolish the Law.  He fulfilled it.   Therefore it falls to us to follow the example of the Son of God in all ways at all times.

This could not have been said better. Thank you.

[Ginger Rella]

Law, not necessarily the Law of Moses, is still in effect for all who are not under grace. Law, in one form or another, exists uniformly within mankind. The Law of Moses was specifically and uniquely given to the Hebrews.

I believe we all agree that the Law of Moses was given to the Hebrews, originally.

Jesus did say, though,

Matthew 5:17-19  (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is pretty definitive to me.

"Law, in one form or another, exists uniformly within mankind." Well, mankind has not done very well with this at all.

[Choir Loft]

This could not have been said better. Thank you.

Matthew 16:17

[Choir Loft]

I believe we all agree that the Law of Moses was given to the Hebrews, originally.

Jesus did say, though,

Matthew 5:17-19  (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is pretty definitive to me.

"Law, in one form or another, exists uniformly within mankind." Well, mankind has not done very well with this at all.

Jesus read and wrote Hebrew.

The Hebrew language is composed of 22 letters none of which are vowels.   They're all consonants.   We see an example of an English translation of this in the word YHWH, which is both a traditional and literal statement of the name of God.   Gentiles interpret this as Jehovah or yahweh, while Jews often use the word Hashem - meaning The Name.  It's an indirect reference to the unpronounceable and holy name of G-d.

Vowels provide the link for pronunciation of a word regardless of what linguistic form it takes.   Hebrew uses odd forms and shapes that look like complicated forms of punctuation.   They are called jots and tittles.   These punctuation marks form the context and suggest the use of a Hebrew word.   One word of consonants can be made to suggest completely different meanings according to the application of these odd punctuation marks - jots and tittles. 

Therefore jots and tittles can decide the meaning or lack of meaning of a word in Hebrew.  Thus when Jesus is saying not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Law, He is saying that no meaning or nuance of the Law shall be removed or misapplied or changed.  This is much more than the addition or absence of a period at the end of an English sentence, which matters little.  In Hebrew, jots and tittles are the whole meaning - the context - of what is being written.

Hope this helps.

That's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS
Go out to the internet and look at some Hebrew writing.  You don't have to understand what it means, just have a peek at the letters with their accompanying jots and tittles.

[RB]

Ignorance of the Law is a primary reason for the dilution of the gospel today.

And you just proved that by your post, that you are ignorant of both the law and the gospel.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

"I did not come to abolish the Law.  I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

I agree with both statements.

The Law IS relevant, for without it one cannot be saved. 

You have no clue what you are saying. I'm coming back in the morning to break down your post. NOT to condemn you, but show you the error of your way and help you to be more perfectly converted to the truth.  RB

[faroukfarouk]

I don't necessarily disagree with the necessity of the law but I also don't necessarily agree with how some seem to believe the law should be administered in this new covenant. Certainly the law is not be held to the letter.

The point being that the New Testament believer is 'justified by faith through our Lord Jesus Christ' and has 'peace with God' (Romans 5), because God is entirely satisfied with the work of His Son at the Cross.

I just don't understand how ppl can insist that we must be taken back to the law.

[Ginger Rella]

The point being that the New Testament believer is 'justified by faith through our Lord Jesus Christ' and has 'peace with God' (Romans 5), because God is entirely satisfied with the work of His Son at the Cross.

I just don't understand how ppl can insist that we must be taken back to the law.

I do not see it as being taken back. I see it as continuing in.

As to Moses' law... no . It is over for us.

As is suggested in Galatians 3.

3:13   Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

3: 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Jesus being that seed and validates what He said when he said in

Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

But... we are not talking about Moses' law, or at least I am not... I am talking about God's law. The 10 commandments and these stand forever.

Psalm 111:7-9  (KJV) confirms

7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.

8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

Yes. it is our faith. But too many have that once saved, always saved. NO matter what. And the 10 commandments ...LAWS... are always to be abided by of us.

Here is a clear example of why it is needed..........

I had a boss who was a pathological liar . His dealings with his customers were an abomination. To cover his rump he would manufacture lies of why what the customer had ordered was not delivered yet and that was virtually always due to his not ordering things yet or that the companies would not ship due to past due notices.

But he needed their deposit money. And yet would lie when the truth would have served him better.

I will not get into the sexual harassment of this man.... It would raise your eyebrows and put that Ford woman's account under a rug.

He was an Elder in the church, and he had a distorted personal belief, though he said it was the church's, that in the end all would be saved. That non believers would be considered as pagans and be an automatic shoe in.
And all he needed was a bale of hay n a corner in heaven.

He truly believed that his belief in Jesus was all that was needed and if he didn't have that he was covered.

He died many years ago.

The law... as in the 10 commandments will never be discounted by God. No matter what. Or you would have a society just like he was

[Jaime]

Good post Rella.

[soterion]

I do not see it as being taken back. I see it as continuing in.

As to Moses' law... no . It is over for us.

As is suggested in Galatians 3.

3:13   Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

3: 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Jesus being that seed and validates what He said when he said in

Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

But... we are not talking about Moses' law, or at least I am not... I am talking about God's law. The 10 commandments and these stand forever.

Psalm 111:7-9  (KJV) confirms

7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.

8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

Yes. it is our faith. But too many have that once saved, always saved. NO matter what. And the 10 commandments ...LAWS... are always to be abided by of us.

Here is a clear example of why it is needed..........

I had a boss who was a pathological liar . His dealings with his customers were an abomination. To cover his rump he would manufacture lies of why what the customer had ordered was not delivered yet and that was virtually always due to his not ordering things yet or that the companies would not ship due to past due notices.

But he needed their deposit money. And yet would lie when the truth would have served him better.

I will not get into the sexual harassment of this man.... It would raise your eyebrows and put that Ford woman's account under a rug.

He was an Elder in the church, and he had a distorted personal belief, though he said it was the church's, that in the end all would be saved. That non believers would be considered as pagans and be an automatic shoe in.
And all he needed was a bale of hay n a corner in heaven.

He truly believed that his belief in Jesus was all that was needed and if he didn't have that he was covered.

He died many years ago.

The law... as in the 10 commandments will never be discounted by God. No matter what. Or you would have a society just like he was

Then I guess all of us who do not observe the Sabbath Day are breaking God's law.

The reality is that the T.C. are just a part of all of God's law that was given through Moses to the Israelites, all at the same time on Mt. Sinai, and to them only. It was all done away when Christ fulfilled it all in His life and death, burial, and resurrection. To appeal to the Ten Commandments is to appeal to the Law of Moses.

[Ginger Rella]

Then I guess all of us who do not observe the Sabbath Day are breaking God's law.

The reality is that the T.C. are just a part of all of God's law that was given through Moses to the Israelites, all at the same time on Mt. Sinai, and to them only. It was all done away when Christ fulfilled it all in His life and death, burial, and resurrection. To appeal to the Ten Commandments is to appeal to the Law of Moses.

Soterion, you are my new hero. I elevate you above Lindsey Graham........

" It was all done away when Christ fulfilled it all in His life and death, burial, and resurrection" Hmmm  thats exactly, EXACTLY what my old boss said.

Let's just do a mini review of which of these that are done away with. So I , and other readers are clear.

Then it is okay to ignore .......... 1 You shall have no other gods before Me. ?? I don't but there are those that do.
                                                 

Then it is okay to ignore............2 You shall not make idols, or graven images. I don't but that does leave a lot of
                                                  churches off the  hook. Good for them. 

Then it is okay to ignore ...........3.You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. Wonderful. Road rage
                                                  trucker mouthing
                                                  is not a problem now.... yippee 

Then it is okay to ignore ............4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Wonder what y'all are doing that
                                                   you are not keeping it  holy?? 

Then it is okay to ignore  ...........5. Honor your father and your mother.   I have not always. Now I won't worry   

Then it is okay to ignore.............6. You shall not murder. I have no desire to do this, though if the opportunity
                                                    presented itself I might  consider for a certain politician or two. 

Then it is okay to ignore ............7.You shall not commit adultery. This may be the best law taken off the table. For
                                                    though I am single  and chaste.. I will admit to a Jimmy Carter moment or two in my lifetime. 
                                                   ::blushing::But now....  Am I free to?   

Then it is okay to ignore ............8. You shall not steal. May not be a law any longer, but it does not interest me. Not
                                                    now.

Then it is okay to ignore ........... 9 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. And this , having been on
                                                  the receiving end of false accusations I would not want to hurt anyone... But my conscience can be
                                                  clear now when someone has an ugly outfit on and asks how they look. I can say you look beautiful. 
                                                   

Then it is okay to  ignore...........10.You shall not covet. And this one too. Especially when a friend gets a new car
                                                    and I am still  driving my 2001

Now... do you want to get real or do you truly say anything goes?Because without God's law, that is what happens... or are you living in a vacuum?

[Jaime]

I think where some get off track, they misconstrue the term fulfill. To me fulfill means to fill full that which was partially full or insufficiently complete. That is exactly what Christ did. Where the letter of the Law existed, he filled it full (fulfilled it) with the Spirit of the Law. "You have heard it said to not commit adultery, But I say to you do not even lust in your heart for another woman." Or " You have heard it said do not kill, but I say to you do not even harbor anger in your heart." In each of these cases and others in Mathew 5, the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus RAISED the bar, he did not remove or abolish the bar. He very much expanded it or filled full that which was not completely full. And yes, we are free from the punishment of the Law of Sin and Death.

[soterion]

Ginger, I was waiting for just that response. Almost everybody responds that way. It's as if without the T.C., then everything is now allowed and there are no crimes/sins according to God. 

Do you think that murder, adultery, stealing, lying, coveting, etc. was allowed by God as lawful until He gave the Ten Commandments? I know that you don't. The point being that none of that needs the stones of the covenant to tell us what God's law is regarding them. All, that is, except the Sabbath Day, but I'll get to that in a second.

Inasmuch as the Ten Commandments did not set in stone, so to speak, God's will regarding the worship of Him, various ways people trespass others, and such, then their removal by the New Covenant does not do away with what God says about them. We find them all in the writings of the New Covenant. All, that is, except the Sabbath Day, but I'll get to that in a second.

Just read how and when the stones were given to Moses and then to the people. The stones of the covenant that God made with the Israelites was just a part of the whole law given through Moses at that time. It was all one law, given at once and only to the Israelites, through Moses at Mt. Sinai. It is all what is referred to as the Law of Moses.

Just read what Paul says about the stones of the covenant in 2 Corinthians chapter 3. He is talking about the stones the Ten Commandments were written on. How about what Paul says about the law that says, "Do not covet"? He writes about that law in Romans 7:1-7ff. He uses an illustration that tells the members that once they were bound to the law, the one that says Do Not Covet, but now that law has died and they are now joined to Jesus Christ. That is actually what 2 Corinthians 3 concludes, as well. You can't be joined to both. To join yourself to one is to reject the other. To try to join yourself to both is adultery. To be joined to the law of letters engraven on stone is to be joined to the Old Covenant which is passed away in Christ.

In Ephesians 2:11-22, Paul writes regarding the Gentiles and tells them that once they were far from God, but in Christ the wall that separated them from what the Jews had with God was removed. That wall of separation was the law of commandments. That wall was removed in Christ's flesh. The Gentiles were brought near by His blood, so that the Jews and Gentiles are now one in Christ.

So, what about the Sabbath Day? It was given only to the Israelites, not to the church of the New Covenant. You can read in the Old Testament scriptures about the Sabbath Day and the animal sacrifices required on it. Are you observing the Sabbath Day as God actually gave it? It was commanded of the Israelites that the observance of the Sabbath was to remind them of their rescue from Egyptian bondage by the mighty hand of God, as well as to have that day of rest from labors. However, the priests didn't get to rest. They had to offer twice the normal daily sacrifices on each weekly Sabbath Day (Numbers 28:1-8, daily offering, 9-10, Sabbath Day offerings).

[NorrinRadd]

...
I just don't understand how ppl can insist that we must be taken back to the law.

Paul expressed the same sentiment in Galatians, and noted that such people are fallen from grace and severed from Christ, and that if they seek to impose their folly on others are to be anathematized.

[RB]

I will finish now what I started yesterday: Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 15:16:16 to Choir Loft.

How is the Law to be administered?

The Law tells us it is to be administered by each person individually to their own benefit or shame. 

The Law declares each person must present themselves personally before God where they offer a sacrifice for their sin. 
According to the Law when the act of submission and sacrifice is consummated, God promises to forgive our sin.   
If a person refuses to submit to the Law they die according to the Law. (Ezekiel 18:20) 
A personal act must be performed personally and will result in personal salvation. 
It is a matter of the heart administered by the heart and obeyed by the heart - according to the Law.

"How is the Law to be administered?" Alan said these words:

I don't necessarily disagree with the necessity of the law but I also don't necessarily agree with how some seem to believe the law should be administered in this new covenant. Certainly the law is not be held to the letter.

When you used the term "The Law" you use this term in a very large sense proven by you quoting such scriptures as Ezekiel and others scriptures.

The first covenant had ordinances of divine service, with an worldy sanctuary, and its Levitical priesthood (for under IT the people of Israel received the law,) since Christ that priesthood was forever changed~Christ is now the High priest UNDER a better covenant, and HIS SEED are the true priesthood under the new covenant. By the truth the priesthood is changed, there IS MADE a necessity a change also of the law (Therefore the "Law of Moses"....  which is the entire system of legislation, judicial and ceremonial, etc.). It is clear that the law Israel was under with all of it earthly ordinances made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope; by which hope we now can of ourselves draw nigh unto God, NOT once a year, but every day we live in this world through our High Priest, JESUS, the Son of the Living God~seeing that he ever liveth to make intercession for us.

The Law (in its widest sense) in which Israel was under was a FIGURE for the time then present in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could NOT make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; which stood ONLY in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances imposed on them UNTIL the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:11-15~"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

All under the first covenant with its handwriting of ORDINANCES that were against us are forever done away by the BODY OF JESUS CHRIST.

Now this being said~it is clear from Hebrews 7-9, and Colossians 2, Ephesians 2, etc. that the Law that was imposed on Israel after the flesh we are NOT under its in any way whatsoever as far as seeking LIFE and a conscience FREE from the curse of the law of God.

We will add this:

1st Timothy 1:8~But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

The law in which are contained the ten commandments is a PERFECT RULE of righteousness that every believer knows is GOOD, HOLY, AND SPIRITUAL, and because it is, they DELIGHT IN THIS LAW and seek to live by its spiritual laws! Romans 7:12-25, not to receive life, but because they have life already in their new man by the grace of God through the perfect obedience of Jesus Christ.

The sacrifice for sin in the person of Jesus Christ is offered for all,

Not is offered to all, but he offered TO GOD his perfect life of obedience, as a Lamb without spot or blemish for his people and God accepted that offering and put his righteousness TO THEIR ACCOUNT as though they had obeyed were perfectly obedience to his Law, that demanded perfection and cursed the least infraction of sin.

but must be appropriated and administered individually.

Now you want to put people BACK UNDER THE LAW~God forbid! It is appropriated and administered by two immutable acts of God...his OATH and his PROMISES OF GRACE on the behalf of Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews 6:17-19 Do you have something better that I'm not seeing? I think not.

Administration of laws of human society are similar.  Those that deny the law and disobey it are summarily judged and penalized for breaking it.  In the Kingdom of Heaven it is God's Law that requires obedience and our own disdain for it that condemns us.   

Okay, I agree but what does this have to do the OT and the NT?

The glory of the gospel is that God has provided the penalty of sin, to forgive that which we have done and to help us live according to the Law.   (Matthew 16:24) 

Not provided sir, but God secured eternal life for his elect through his Son's perfect obedience in our place that we could NOT DO because of the weakness of our sinful flesh!

Romans 8:4~For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

The Law of God (summed up in the Ten Commandments) could NOT offer or provide the way for SINFUL MAN to be saved from its curse, because of the weakness of our sinful flesh, which all from Adam have, none are exempt.

The caveat is that we must ask for it and receive it.

Proviso of specific stipulations, conditions? Then you are guilty of laboring to put us back under the law of works! Jesus Christ was the SURETY of his people that were given to him by God to redeem from the curse of the law of God.

In closing, I'll leave you with this.....The "Law of God" expresses the mind of the Creator, and is binding upon all rational creatures. It is God's unchanging moral standard for regulating the conduct of all men. In some places "the Law of God" may refer to the whole revealed will of God, but in the majority, it has reference to the Ten Commandments; and it is in this restricted sense we use the term. This Law was impressed on man's moral nature from the beginning, and though now fallen, he still shows the work of it written in his heart. This law has never been repealed, and in the very nature of things, cannot be. For God to abrogate the moral Law would be to plunge the whole universe into anarchy. Obedience to the Law of God is man's first duty. That is why the first complaint that Jehovah made against Israel after they left Egypt was, "How long refuse ye to keep My commandments and My laws" (Exodus 16:28). That is why the first statutes God gave to Israel were the Ten Commandments, i.e. the moral Law. That is why in the first discourse of Christ recorded in the New Testament He declared, "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17), and then proceeded to expound and enforce the moral Law. And that is why in the first of the Epistles, the Holy Spirit has taught us at length the relation of the Law to sinners and saints, in connection with salvation and the subsequent walk of the saved: the word "law" occurs in Romans no less than seventy-five times, though, of course, not every reference is to the Law of God.

The "Law of Moses" is the entire system of legislation, judicial and ceremonial, etc. which Jehovah gave to Israel during the time they were in the wilderness. The Law of Moses, as such, WAS (no longer) binding upon none but Israelites. That the Law of Moses is not binding on Gentiles is clear from Acts 15.

The "Law of Christ" is God's moral Law, but in the hands of the Mediator. It is the Law which Christ Himself was "made under" (Galatians 4:4). It is the Law which was "in His heart" (Psalms 40:8). It is the Law which He came to "fulfill" (Matthw 5:17). The "Law of God" is now termed "the Law of Christ" as it relates to Christians. As creatures we are under bonds to "serve the Law of God" (Romans 7:25). As redeemed sinners we are "the bondslaves of Christ", and as such we are under bonds to "serve the Lord Christ" (Colossians  3:24). The relation between these two appellations, "the law of God" and "the Law of Christ" is clearly intimated in 1st Cor. 9:21, where the apostle states, that he was not without Law to God," for he was "under the Law of Christ". The meaning of this is very simple. As a human creature, the apostle was still under obligation to obey the moral Law of God his Creator; but as a saved man he now belonged to Christ, the Mediator, by redemption. Christ had purchased him: he was His, therefore, he was "under the Law of Christ". The "Law of Christ", then, is just the moral Law of God now in the hands of the Mediator and Redeemer~his yoke is easy and his burden is light....praise is to God's oath and promises of grace, and mercy to us through Jesus Christ.

[4WD]

It is important to understand that there is the distinction between the COMMANDS of the law, and the PENALTIES prescribed by the law when its commands are not obeyed. It is crucial to understand this distinction, in order to properly understand the work of Jesus Christ. Any any law code contains both commands and penalties.  God is both LAWGIVER (giving commands) and JUDGE (enforcing obedience via penalties). God as lawgiver gives the commands he requires his creatures to obey. God as judge sits in judgment on his creatures and applies the penalty of hell to the disobedient. When the commands of his law are violated by human sin, God's holy nature demands that the law's PENALTY be satisfied.

So then what did Jesus accomplish by his sacrifice on the cross?  What did He fulfill?  When He cried out, "It is finished", what was finished?  He did not do away with the commands, at least not all of them.  The moral character of the law remains and in fact, as Jaime pointed out, the bar on those commands was raised not abandoned.  What Jesus fulfilled was the penalties required by disobedience to the law.

How did Jesus fulfill that requirement?  Was it by living a perfect life as some here have said?  No, in living the perfect life, Jesus did only what God required of every human being.  In living the perfect life, Jesus did no more than what God asked of every human being, but what every human being except Jesus has failed at.  Jesus perfect obedience did not fulfill the law for everyone else or for anyone else.  There was nothing left over for the rest of us.  But in being the Son of God and living the perfect life as a human being, Jesus became the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world.  He became the propitiation for the sins of the world (Rom 3:25; Heb 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 4:10).  And as John said in 1 John 2:2, " He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."   That is not a propitiation just for a few "elect", but for the whole world.  It is there, it is up to us to acknowledge and accept that propitiation on our behalf.  We do that by our faith --  "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith (Rom 3:23-25). "

The law was not abandoned, it was not done away with.  What was fulfilled was the punishment for disobedience if we accept it on our behalf.  We can either accept the payment of the penalty by Jesus or we can choose to pay it ourselves.  The choice is up to us.  How?  It is received by faith (Rom 3:25).

[Alan]

I think where some get off track, they misconstrue the term fulfill. To me fulfill means to fill full that which was partially full or individual complete. That is exactly what Christ did. Where the letter of the Law existed, he filled it full (fulfilled it) with the Spirit of the Law. "You have heard it said to not commit adultery, But I say to you do not even lust in your heart for another woman." Or " You have heard it said do not kill, but I say to you do not even harbor anger in your heart." In each of these cases and others in Mathew 5, the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus RAISED the bar, he did not remove or abolish the bar. He very much expanded it or filled full that which was not completely full. And yes, we are free from the punishment of the Law of Sin and Death.

Absolutely Jaime. I truly believe those that lack understanding in Christ's works and insist that the written law is the standard to which we live our lives are somewhat deceived. Listing each commandment and telling us that we are to adhere to each as it is written is never going to redeem us. I think the majority of us can easily go through life having never committed murder, but as Jesus said, anyone that becomes angry with his brother will be subject to judgement, and that folks is the example of how the law should be administered.

There was ample reason why Jesus did not write out an elevated and amended set of laws, you either accept the law in your heart or you don't, your choice. The days of blueprinting and mapping out man's destiny were put behind us at the cross.

[4WD]

I think where some get off track, they misconstrue the term fulfill. To me fulfill means to fill full that which was partially full or individual complete. That is exactly what Christ did. Where the letter of the Law existed, he filled it full (fulfilled it) with the Spirit of the Law. "You have heard it said to not commit adultery, But I say to you do not even lust in your heart for another woman." Or " You have heard it said do not kill, but I say to you do not even harbor anger in your heart." In each of these cases and others in Mathew 5, the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus RAISED the bar, he did not remove or abolish the bar. He very much expanded it or filled full that which was not completely full. And yes, we are free from the punishment of the Law of Sin and Death.

Absolutely Jaime. I truly believe those that lack understanding in Christ's works and insist that the written law is the standard to which we live our lives are somewhat deceived. Listing each commandment and telling us that we are to adhere to each as it is written is never going to redeem us. I think the majority of us can easily go through life having never committed murder, but as Jesus said, anyone that becomes angry with his brother will be subject to judgement, and that folks is the example of how the law should be administered.

There was ample reason why Jesus did not write out an elevated and amended set of laws, you either accept the law in your heart or you don't, your choice. The days of blueprinting and mapping out man's destiny were put behind us at the cross.

The cross did not relieve us from the responsibility of keeping God's laws.  The cross relieved us, at least those of us who believe in Jesus, from the requirement of ourselves paying the price for not keeping God's laws.   Make no mistake, God's laws are the standard by which we are to live our lives.

Mat 22:37  And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39  And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

Luk 10:26  He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?"
Luk 10:27  And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself."
Luk 10:28  And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."

There is not so much as a hint that this does not still hold true.

[Amo]

Ginger, I was waiting for just that response. Almost everybody responds that way. It's as if without the T.C., then everything is now allowed and there are no crimes/sins according to God. 

Do you think that murder, adultery, stealing, lying, coveting, etc. was allowed by God as lawful until He gave the Ten Commandments? I know that you don't. The point being that none of that needs the stones of the covenant to tell us what God's law is regarding them. All, that is, except the Sabbath Day, but I'll get to that in a second.

Inasmuch as the Ten Commandments did not set in stone, so to speak, God's will regarding the worship of Him, various ways people trespass others, and such, then their removal by the New Covenant does not do away with what God says about them. We find them all in the writings of the New Covenant. All, that is, except the Sabbath Day, but I'll get to that in a second.

Just read how and when the stones were given to Moses and then to the people. The stones of the covenant that God made with the Israelites was just a part of the whole law given through Moses at that time. It was all one law, given at once and only to the Israelites, through Moses at Mt. Sinai. It is all what is referred to as the Law of Moses.

Just read what Paul says about the stones of the covenant in 2 Corinthians chapter 3. He is talking about the stones the Ten Commandments were written on. How about what Paul says about the law that says, "Do not covet"? He writes about that law in Romans 7:1-7ff. He uses an illustration that tells the members that once they were bound to the law, the one that says Do Not Covet, but now that law has died and they are now joined to Jesus Christ. That is actually what 2 Corinthians 3 concludes, as well. You can't be joined to both. To join yourself to one is to reject the other. To try to join yourself to both is adultery. To be joined to the law of letters engraven on stone is to be joined to the Old Covenant which is passed away in Christ.

In Ephesians 2:11-22, Paul writes regarding the Gentiles and tells them that once they were far from God, but in Christ the wall that separated them from what the Jews had with God was removed. That wall of separation was the law of commandments. That wall was removed in Christ's flesh. The Gentiles were brought near by His blood, so that the Jews and Gentiles are now one in Christ.

So, what about the Sabbath Day? It was given only to the Israelites, not to the church of the New Covenant. You can read in the Old Testament scriptures about the Sabbath Day and the animal sacrifices required on it. Are you observing the Sabbath Day as God actually gave it? It was commanded of the Israelites that the observance of the Sabbath was to remind them of their rescue from Egyptian bondage by the mighty hand of God, as well as to have that day of rest from labors. However, the priests didn't get to rest. They had to offer twice the normal daily sacrifices on each weekly Sabbath Day (Numbers 28:1-8, daily offering, 9-10, Sabbath Day offerings).

It is hard to reach proper conclusions when information is either unknown, or purposely excluded in order to support a chosen belief or deception. The Sabbath was given to humanity at creation before there was sin, and 2000 years before there was a Jew, Moses, or the commandments written in tables of stone with God's own finger. The Sabbath is addressed several times over in the New Testament by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. He never spoke of abolishing it, but to the contrary always tried to convey its true purpose and manner of observance in contrast to the burden it had been made. God calls the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath His, many times over. Those claiming either came to us by Moses and are therefore his law, are peddling deception. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ plainly and conclusively stated, that He did not come to change the law, and that the law would not change until heaven and earth passed. They have not. He also plainly stated that anyone breaking any of the commandments and teaching others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

This is not rocket science. The truth is plain to see. It only becomes confusing or unclear when those who deny the plain truth must try to explain that denial. Which explanation of course, leaves out leaves or excludes scripture which does not fit said explanation.

[RB]

The Sabbath was given to humanity at creation 2000 years before there was sin, a Jew, Moses, or the commandments written in tables of stone with God's own finger.

Your timeline is way off~2000 years? not even close! The flood happened 6,500 years AFTER creation but that's another study for another day!

Let us consider that you said the Sabbath was given to humanity at creation.

God rested the seventh day after creating all things (Genesis 2:1-3), but He did not require the patriarchs to rest or keep this day for any special religious significance.  If so, where can I read that he did? Though there is much worship of God in Genesis, there is no mention of anyone observing the seventh day to the Lord.

God gave the seventh day as a special day of rest to Israel only. It was His special sign to them as His covenant nation (Exodus 31:12-18; Deuteronomy 5:15; Nehemiah 9:13-14; Ezekiel 20:12,20).

There is no mystery about the seventh day. God could have created in seven hours, seven minutes, seven seconds, or no time at all. Could he not? He chose seven days, resting the seventh, to give Israel a time for rest after their horrible bondage in the land of Egypt (Exodus 23:12; Deut 5:12-15; Mark 2:27). I would go as far as to say that he left us an example to rest one in seven days to refuel our strength, but NOT as a commandment that MUST be observed. Would you like for all hospitals to close their doors on Saturday, or Sunday, or any one day during the week? Of course, you would not. The man was NOT made for the Sabbath, (as your religion teaches by their doctrine) but the Sabbath FOR MAN. If your wife was dying on Saturday, would you rush her to the hospital? If you were a righteous husband and loved your wife YOU WOULD.

Moses wrote Genesis 2:1-3, therefore he referred to the seventh day as being blessed and sanctified from the perspective of God's law to Israel. There is no evidence the seventh day was a creation ordinance for all nations. Not one man prior to Israel under Moses ever saw or read Genesis 2:1-3. There was confusion in Israel about the seventh day and manna gathering in Exodus 16, which shows that the Israelites had not been observing the Sabbath prior to their departure from Egypt.

You may want to consider that the apostles only mentioned the seventh day three times in all the New Testament epistles, and not once did they recommend it. The Holy Ghost did say that the seventh day was a figurative picture of our salvation rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:3-5). Paul wrote that the seventh day, the Sabbath, was not binding on Christians, for it was only a figurative shadow of the reality of Christ, and true saints rejected such ordinances (Colossians 2:13-23) and NOT to allow other men to judge us in regards to the Sabbaths days.  Paul wrote that observance of Jewish days was a private matter of personal liberty (Romans 14:1-23). Paul considered keeping of Jewish days made the gospel of Jesus Christ of no value (Galatians 4:9-11). Paul thoroughly compared the Old and New Testaments, showing the inferiority and passing away of the Old, which included the Fourth Commandment written in stone (2nd Corinthians 3:6-18).  Paul did indeed observe the seventh day, the Sabbath, only to win ignorant Jews and Gentile proselytes that were still keeping the Law of Moses (Acts 9:20; 13:14,42; 15:21; 16:13; 17:1-3; 18:4; Ist Corinthians 9:20).

Jesus kept the seventh day, the Sabbath, for the same reasons He kept the rest of the Jewish laws, like circumcision. He was born a Jew under the laws of the Jews (Galatians 4:4-5; Matthew 5:17; Romans 15:8). Jesus appeared to His disciples on the first day of the week, not the seventh (Matthew 28:8-10; Mark 16:9-14; Luke 24:33-48; John 20:19-25). Jesus blessed His disciples on the first day of the week, not the seventh (John 20:19). Jesus gave His disciples the Holy Spirit on the first day of the week, not the seventh (John 20:23).

Many dead saints rose from the dead on the first day of the week, not the seventh (Matt 27:52-53).

The first day of the week, not the seventh, was a time of great joy and gladness at the resurrection of Christ the Lord (Luke 24:41; John 20:20).

Jesus Christ gave forth the promised Holy Spirit from the Father on the first day of the week, not the seventh, for Pentecost was the 50th day after the Sabbath following the wave offering (Leviticus 23:15-16 cp Acts 2:1 cp Acts 2:33). Pentecost was always on the first day of the week, Sunday.

The early church met on the first day of the week for religious worship and breaking bread in the Lord's Supper (Acts 20:6-7).

Paul commanded all the Gentile churches to observe the first day of the week for their religious worship of giving (Ist Corinthians 16:1-2)...NOT on the Sabbath

When all the apostles and elders met for the only inspired church council in history, the matter at hand was to identify what parts of Moses' law applied to converted Gentiles. With this perfect opportunity, the seventh day issue was totally ignored by the Holy Spirit and these men (Acts 15). Amo, Why is this so? Does this bother you? It should.

Jesus appeared to John on the Lord's Day, which would have to be Sunday, for Jesus Christ, as Lord of the Sabbath, had changed the day for God's worship to Sunday (Matthew 12:8; Revelation 1:10).

It is hard to reach proper conclusions when information is either unknown, or purposely excluded in order to support a chosen belief or deception.

You are correct, very sad that you think that this is true of others and cannot be true of you and your sect. 

[soterion]

Good post, RB. +1

[Ginger Rella]

Ginger, I was waiting for just that response. Almost everybody responds that way. It's as if without the T.C., then everything is now allowed and there are no crimes/sins according to God. 

Do you think that murder, adultery, stealing, lying, coveting, etc. was allowed by God as lawful until He gave the Ten Commandments? I know that you don't. The point being that none of that needs the stones of the covenant to tell us what God's law is regarding them. All, that is, except the Sabbath Day, but I'll get to that in a second.

Inasmuch as the Ten Commandments did not set in stone, so to speak, God's will regarding the worship of Him, various ways people trespass others, and such, then their removal by the New Covenant does not do away with what God says about them. We find them all in the writings of the New Covenant. All, that is, except the Sabbath Day, but I'll get to that in a second.

Just read how and when the stones were given to Moses and then to the people. The stones of the covenant that God made with the Israelites was just a part of the whole law given through Moses at that time. It was all one law, given at once and only to the Israelites, through Moses at Mt. Sinai. It is all what is referred to as the Law of Moses.

Just read what Paul says about the stones of the covenant in 2 Corinthians chapter 3. He is talking about the stones the Ten Commandments were written on. How about what Paul says about the law that says, "Do not covet"? He writes about that law in Romans 7:1-7ff. He uses an illustration that tells the members that once they were bound to the law, the one that says Do Not Covet, but now that law has died and they are now joined to Jesus Christ. That is actually what 2 Corinthians 3 concludes, as well. You can't be joined to both. To join yourself to one is to reject the other. To try to join yourself to both is adultery. To be joined to the law of letters engraven on stone is to be joined to the Old Covenant which is passed away in Christ.

In Ephesians 2:11-22, Paul writes regarding the Gentiles and tells them that once they were far from God, but in Christ the wall that separated them from what the Jews had with God was removed. That wall of separation was the law of commandments. That wall was removed in Christ's flesh. The Gentiles were brought near by His blood, so that the Jews and Gentiles are now one in Christ.

So, what about the Sabbath Day? It was given only to the Israelites, not to the church of the New Covenant. You can read in the Old Testament scriptures about the Sabbath Day and the animal sacrifices required on it. Are you observing the Sabbath Day as God actually gave it? It was commanded of the Israelites that the observance of the Sabbath was to remind them of their rescue from Egyptian bondage by the mighty hand of God, as well as to have that day of rest from labors. However, the priests didn't get to rest. They had to offer twice the normal daily sacrifices on each weekly Sabbath Day (Numbers 28:1-8, daily offering, 9-10, Sabbath Day offerings).

Ginger, I was waiting for just that response. Almost everybody responds that way. It's as if without the T.C., then everything is now allowed and there are no crimes/sins according to God. 

I am so happy to have obliged you.

But, can you not realize that when you make a statement that

"It was all done away when Christ fulfilled it all in His life and death, burial, and resurrection"  That the average person hearing that from someone that they regard as having the truth, or from the pulpit, or reading it in a forum without any extensive yearning to want to understand why something said just does not seem correct... will believe that there is now no Godly guidelines that they need be concerned with. They are saved, in their minds, and all else is of no matter. Repentence is not needed IF the laws of God were done away.

The TC were removed from schools, public buildings, and from the vocabulary of John Q Public... and just look at the decadence because they are Anti- God or have come to believe that "It was all done away when Christ fulfilled it all".

Poppycock.

That is just idiotic.

Jaime is correct....

"Jesus RAISED the bar, he did not remove or abolish the bar"

Though,  I disagree in " And yes, we are free from the punishment of the Law of Sin and Death"

If we live as the average person wants to live, with no regard for anyone but self, and carnal pleasures, just living for the "if it feels good, do it" mentality... I cannot believe we are free from punishment by ignoring what we know to be right.

Do you think that murder, adultery, stealing, lying, coveting, etc. was allowed by God as lawful until He gave the Ten Commandments? I know that you don't. The point being that none of that needs the stones of the covenant to tell us what God's law is regarding them. All, that is, except the Sabbath Day, but I'll get to that in a second.

DO I   You know that I do not. But I do know that people need something to guide them. People will not spend hours and days scouring God's word to discern if they can or cannot and if not why not and what it takes,,, and then end in debate with themselves or others, or even you and I... because none of us... even on here... are properly discerning that actual meaning ... and I am not starting on that. People need guidelines and written rules. If they are stupid enough to have to be shown to not walk by a traffic light when traffic would likely hit them, and they must wait for a walk sign.... How can they be trusted to understand why that touchy feel good is wrong and not do it if they have no reference point of why it would be wrong?...

Inasmuch as the Ten Commandments did not set in stone, so to speak, God's will regarding the worship of Him, various ways people trespass others, and such, then their removal by the New Covenant does not do away with what God says about them. We find them all in the writings of the New Covenant. All, that is, except the Sabbath Day, but I'll get to that in a second.

Okay, I will own I used the TC as the reference point for "God's Law".  It is my fault that I listed them to show commandment from Him.
I should have expanded that to include commands of Jesus also.

Jesus said....
Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

That fights your statement of "It was all done away when Christ fulfilled it all in His life and death, burial, and resurrection"


Just read how and when the stones were given to Moses and then to the people. The stones of the covenant that God made with the Israelites was just a part of the whole law given through Moses at that time. It was all one law, given at once and only to the Israelites, through Moses at Mt. Sinai. It is all what is referred to as the Law of Moses.

Just read what Paul says about the stones of the covenant in 2 Corinthians chapter 3. He is talking about the stones the Ten Commandments were written on. How about what Paul says about the law that says, "Do not covet"? He writes about that law in Romans 7:1-7ff. He uses an illustration that tells the members that once they were bound to the law, the one that says Do Not Covet, but now that law has died and they are now joined to Jesus Christ. That is actually what 2 Corinthians 3 concludes, as well. You can't be joined to both. To join yourself to one is to reject the other. To try to join yourself to both is adultery. To be joined to the law of letters engraven on stone is to be joined to the Old Covenant which is passed away in Christ.

In Ephesians 2:11-22, Paul writes regarding the Gentiles and tells them that once they were far from God, but in Christ the wall that separated them from what the Jews had with God was removed. That wall of separation was the law of commandments. That wall was removed in Christ's flesh. The Gentiles were brought near by His blood, so that the Jews and Gentiles are now one in Christ.

I just do not see it as you do.

The laws given after Jesus, are more severe in many ways then those of the 10 commandments.

Take fornication for instance.... a big, BIG  no no.... quite an expansion of mere adultery. Try that one on when you are single.

So, what about the Sabbath Day? It was given only to the Israelites, not to the church of the New Covenant. You can read in the Old Testament scriptures about the Sabbath Day and the animal sacrifices required on it. Are you observing the Sabbath Day as God actually gave it? It was commanded of the Israelites that the observance of the Sabbath was to remind them of their rescue from Egyptian bondage by the mighty hand of God, as well as to have that day of rest from labors. However, the priests didn't get to rest. They had to offer twice the normal daily sacrifices on each weekly Sabbath Day (Numbers 28:1-8, daily offering, 9-10, Sabbath Day offerings).

I observe the Sabbath as God originally stated. For Adam and mankind in general.

Genesis 2 (NIV)

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Genesis 2

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

(Not taking the tme to post the Hebrew interliner verse.)

And this was long before Moses/Israelites  and company .

[NorrinRadd]

Each of us finds certain Scriptures "clear," "definitive," "convincing," etc.

In my case, I find Eph. 2, Col. 2, and Gal. 3 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that the Law and every ordinance, decree, and Commandment was cancelled, abolished, nailed to the Cross, hung on the Tree, for those of us who are in Christ.

I find Gal. 4:10, Rom. 14, and Col. 2:16 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that we need not consider the Sabbath or any other day to be special.

I find Hebrews to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that the Law passed away along with the Obsolete and Outdated Covenant.

I find Gal 5:14, Rom. 13:8-10, and Jas. 2:8 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that the only Commandment universally applicable to believers is "Love your neighbor as yourself."

I find John 6 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that no good work, including obeying the "Love Commandment," is necessary to obtain eternal life; rather all that is necessary is to trust Jesus.

[Ginger Rella]

Each of us finds certain Scriptures "clear," "definitive," "convincing," etc.

In my case, I find Eph. 2, Col. 2, and Gal. 3 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that the Law and every ordinance, decree, and Commandment was cancelled, abolished, nailed to the Cross, hung on the Tree, for those of us who are in Christ.

I find Gal. 4:10, Rom. 14, and Col. 2:16 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that we need not consider the Sabbath or any other day to be special.

I find Hebrews to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that the Law passed away along with the Obsolete and Outdated Covenant.

I find Gal 5:14, Rom. 13:8-10, and Jas. 2:8 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that the only Commandment universally applicable to believers is "Love your neighbor as yourself."

I find John 6 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that no good work, including obeying the "Love Commandment," is necessary to obtain eternal life; rather all that is necessary is to trust Jesus.

I will say you are in the majority.

But then look at the consequences of everything around you because most believe  this.

Something is wrong... but you are right also when you say .......

Each of us finds certain Scriptures "clear," "definitive," "convincing," etc.

That, I suspect was by divine design.

[Michael2012]

The only relevant answer to the tribulation of the modern age is a return to the Law - to an appreciation of its role in true religion and personal salvation. 

Of course that is not true. If the law of Moses is the answer, there was no need for Christ.

Christ is the answer, if you still don't realize that.

The Law of Moses was not given and is not given, to Christians who have Christ, but to the Jews. It was given to them to bring them to Christ (Gal.3:24). That is what the Jews of today realize. If they love and follow the Law, they would be brought to Christ and receive redemption.

To the Jews then, who and been brought to Christ, received, believed, and trust in Christ, having now faith in Christ, you are under the Law no more, but under grace.

To the Jews then who keep themselves from being brought to Christ by the Law, you are still under the law and in need of Christ for salvation. (Read Gal. 3)

[RB]

The Law of Moses was not given and is not given, to Christians who have Christ, but to the Jews. It was given to them to bring them to Christ (Gal.3:24). That is what the Jews of today realize. If they love and follow the Law, they would be brought to Christ and receive redemption.

My dearest brother, and other dear brethren who have posted, I have a few things more to say.

TRULY this ONE SUBJECT is the difference between the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and another gospel, which even the great Apostle Peter had trouble discerning the truth, and even Barnabas, who heard Paul over and over again, was carried away with false brethren (who God along determines who they are) who were dissimulating from the truth of the gospel of Christ under the pretense of loving and defending God's truth.

The Law of Moses was not given and is not given, to Christians who have Christ, but to the Jews.

In what sense are you using the The Law of Moses?  The entire system of legislation, judicial and ceremonial, etc. and the Ten Commandments? Then we must disagree. The Ten Commandments is the SUM OF ALL of God's commandments summed up in ten of them~and ALL of God's commandments (both OT and NT are summed up into TWO of them....

Matthew 22:37-40~"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And I might add~Jesus' and the apostles! So, knowing this, the Ten Commandments which are the SUM of ALL of God's commandments are EVER blinding on us to obey~not in order to obtain mercy because we HAVE obtained mercy through our through Jesus Christ perfectly fulfilling those GOOD, HOLY and SPIRITUAL LAWS in our place FOR US that we may receive the righteousness of God through his body that was put to death in our stead, yet resurrected from the dead since death had NO CLAIMS on him and the elect members of his body.

As I said above:

The "Law of Christ" is God's moral Law (summed up in the Ten Commandments) , but in the hands of the Mediator. It is the Law which Christ Himself was "made under" (Galatians 4:4). It is the Law which was "in His heart" (Psalms 40:8). It is the Law which He came to "fulfill" (Matthw 5:17). The "Law of God" is now termed "the Law of Christ" as it relates to Christians. As creatures we are under bonds to "serve the Law of God" (Romans 7:25). As redeemed sinners we are "the bondslaves of Christ", and as such we are under bonds to "serve the Lord Christ" (Colossians  3:24). The relation between these two appellations, "the law of God" and "the Law of Christ" is clearly intimated in 1st Cor. 9:21, where the apostle states, that he was not without Law to God," for he was "under the Law of Christ". The meaning of this is very simple. As a human creature, the apostle was still under obligation to obey the moral Law of God his Creator; but as a saved man he now belonged to Christ, the Mediator, by redemption. Christ had purchased him: he was His, therefore, he was "under the Law of Christ". The "Law of Christ", then, is just the moral Law of God now in the hands of the Mediator and Redeemer~his yoke is easy and his burden is light....praise is to God's oath and promises of grace, and mercy to us through Jesus Christ.

Brother you said:

The Law of Moses was not given and is not given, to Christians who have Christ, but to the Jews. It was given to them to bring them to Christ (Gal.3:24).

Well the Law of Moses as such was not given to no one but Israel after the flesh~but the Law of God summed up in the Ten Commandments have always been in blinding on humanity from creation and was in their hearts BEFORE THE FALL of Adam~

Romans 2:12-15~"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

What LAW was written on ALL HEARTS? God's moral law contained in the Ten Commandments.

but to the Jews. It was given to them to bring them to Christ (Gal.3:24).

My brother, that is not correct. ONE of the purposes that the Law of God serves is to be a schoolmaster for BELIEVERS~allow me to explain myself.

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

If I understand these words correctly this is what they are saying to me~The Law of God contained in Ten Commandments is "OUR"~that is BELIEVERS Schoolmaster to bring US~that's BELIEVERS unto Christ...that's unto a KNOWLEDGE OF THE FAITH THAT LEGALLY SAVES US FROM OUR SINS, AND JUSTIFY US FREELY FROM ALL SINS. The Law of God has NO effect on dead sinners~they are at enmity against its holy laws and would NEVER listen to OUR schoolmaster...impossible.

The Law of God shows us that we are SINNERS and wretched ones at that and that our ONLY hope is through JESUS CHRIST and his life of perfect faith and obedience! "ONCE" that believer has learned this truth HE/SHE IS NO LONGER under the schoolmaster in this sense, yet will always be guided by the schoolmaster's good, holy and spiritual laws, for there is NONE higher and more righteous than the law of God. Romans 7:9-25 ties in perfectly with Galatians 3:22-25!

[Ginger Rella]

. The Ten Commandments is the SUM OF ALL of God's commandments summed up in ten of them~and ALL of God's commandments (both OT and NT are summed up into TWO of them....And I might add~Jesus' and the apostles! So, knowing this, the Ten Commandments which are the SUM of ALL of God's commandments are EVER blinding on us to obey~not in order to obtain mercy because we HAVE obtained mercy through our through Jesus Christ perfectly fulfilling those GOOD, HOLY and SPIRITUAL LAWS in our place FOR US that we may receive the righteousness of God through his body that was put to death in our stead, yet resurrected from the dead since death had NO CLAIMS on him and the elect members of his body.

ONE of the purposes that the Law of God serves is to be a schoolmaster for BELIEVERS~allow me to explain myself. If I understand these words correctly this is what they are saying to me~The Law of God contained in Ten Commandments is "OUR"~that is BELIEVERS Schoolmaster to bring US~that's BELIEVERS unto Christ...that's unto a KNOWLEDGE OF THE FAITH THAT LEGALLY SAVES US FROM OUR SINS, AND JUSTIFY US FREELY FROM ALL SINS. The Law of God has NO effect on dead sinners~they are at enmity against its holy laws and would NEVER listen to OUR schoolmaster...impossible.

The Law of God shows us that we are SINNERS and wretched ones at that and that our ONLY hope is through JESUS CHRIST and his life of perfect faith and obedience! "ONCE" that believer has learned this truth HE/SHE IS NO LONGER under the schoolmaster in this sense, yet will always be guided by the schoolmaster's good, holy and spiritual laws, for there is NONE higher and more righteous than the law of God. Romans 7:9-25 ties in perfectly with Galatians 3:22-25!

Perfectly said, perfectly understood.

"The Law of God shows us that we are SINNERS and wretched ones at that and that our ONLY hope is through JESUS CHRIST and his life of perfect faith and obedience! "ONCE" that believer has learned this truth HE/SHE IS NO LONGER under the schoolmaster in this sense, yet will always be guided by the schoolmaster's good, holy and spiritual laws, for there is NONE higher and more righteous than the law of God. Romans 7:9-25 ties in perfectly with Galatians 3:22-25!"

[Amo]

Your timeline is way off~2000 years? not even close! The flood happened 6,500 years AFTER creation but that's another study for another day!

I agree. That's another study for another day, with some one else.

Let us consider that you said the Sabbath was given to humanity at creation.

God rested the seventh day after creating all things (Genesis 2:1-3), but He did not require the patriarchs to rest or keep this day for any special religious significance.  If so, where can I read that he did? Though there is much worship of God in Genesis, there is no mention of anyone observing the seventh day to the Lord.

You can start in the most obvious place which you yourself quoted.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Where do you think God was when He blessed and sanctified the seventh day? Do you think He was with Adam and Eve on the world He just created? Or do you think he left the world to pronounce a blessed and sanctified day for that world? Do you think He established such in the presence of Adam and Eve and no doubt many other witnesses, and then intended they ignore that which He established? Or do you think Adam and Eve rested with God on the day He just blessed and sanctified? Why would you presume to separate from creation and the created, that which was most obviously established for and to be part of them and the world they were given? Is it not simply because you wish to deny the same in accordance with a belief which will not allow for it? Do you think Jesus Christ who is God and created the seventh day Sabbath, was wrong when He said the following?

Mk 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? 26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

We don't have to presume anything. The Lord of the Sabbath has told us that the Sabbath was made for man, and it was made at creation. It was made for man at creation before there ever was sin, or an Israel or any need at all for a specific and special people of God in this world. Yet here you are demanding that, that which was made for man by God as a blessing to us immediately after our creation, was not revealed to us or observed by us until thousands of years after it was established by God. Why would you presume such?

The Sabbath commandment begins with the word remember. Why would God ask humanity to remember to observe a special day they never knew about or observed before? Why would anyone presume He did, unless there intention was for it to be so in accordance with something other than God's word.

Apart from the Sabbath, none of the particulars of the other nine commandments are addressed at all in the book of Genesis. Yet we know from the book of Genesis, that Abraham kept the commandments of God.

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

What commandments, statutes, and laws of God do you think Abraham kept? Why would you presume that the only commandment specifically referenced or addressed in the book of Genesis, would specifically be one that was not kept or observed by God's chosen of the time covered in the book? One of whom the book states, obeyed God's voice, kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. Is it not because you do not wish it to be so? Perhaps not. Though we may judge what people do, ours is not to judge why.

God gave the seventh day as a special day of rest to Israel only. It was His special sign to them as His covenant nation (Exodus 31:12-18; Deuteronomy 5:15; Nehemiah 9:13-14; Ezekiel 20:12,20).

No, He did not give the seventh day Sabbath to Israel only. This is what RB says and demands, not what scripture says or demands. Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, and we know from scripture that it was established and given to humanity at creation. RB denies this for whatever reasons are guiding him. Nevertheless, the seventh day Sabbath was established by God at creation, and according to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ it was made for man. Those who insist the Sabbath was for the Jews alone deny this for it would seem, obvious reasons.

While God did give the seventh day Sabbath to Israel, it was not for them alone, they were simply the only one's who would observe it. They were  the only people in the world at the time, that were chosen by God to be His representatives in this world which had predominantly forsaken Him. Of course He gave His blessed and sanctified seventh day Sabbath to the people who claimed Him as their one and only God. Of course it was a sign that they were God's own. Just as He gave His blessed and sanctified seventh day Sabbath to all humanity and creation at the end of the same in the beginning. When all were and was His, He gave them His seventh day Sabbath. Later He gave it again to those whom He called out of this world to be His own within it. Thus the command says remember.

Exo 20:8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So also today, those who would be His, should observe the day He blessed and sanctified for all.

There is no mystery about the seventh day. God could have created in seven hours, seven minutes, seven seconds, or no time at all. Could he not? He chose seven days, resting the seventh, to give Israel a time for rest after their horrible bondage in the land of Egypt (Exodus 23:12; Deut 5:12-15; Mark 2:27). I would go as far as to say that he left us an example to rest one in seven days to refuel our strength, but NOT as a commandment that MUST be observed. Would you like for all hospitals to close their doors on Saturday, or Sunday, or any one day during the week? Of course, you would not. The man was NOT made for the Sabbath, (as your religion teaches by their doctrine) but the Sabbath FOR MAN. If your wife was dying on Saturday, would you rush her to the hospital? If you were a righteous husband and loved your wife YOU WOULD.

We all know God could have and can do whatever He wishes. This in no way shape or form detracts from what He did do, and does wish. He did create the world in six days, and He did rest on the seventh day, He did bless and sanctify the seventh day, and He did make the seventh day Sabbath for humanity. This is the testimony of scripture, regardless of what RB wishes to conjecture. Nor does my religion claim that man was made for the Sabbath as RB falsely claims. The Sabbath was made by God for man, those who reject it, reject what God made for their own good. Nor does the bible anywhere, or the SDA church, claim that necessary functions of society or private lives for that matter need to cease on the 
Sabbath. This is in RB's head, not scripture or reality. It is a faulty premise, built up and asserted in order to deny or counteract truth. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ addressed and settled these exact issues for us when here confronting the burdens placed upon the Sabbath by man in his own day.

Moses wrote Genesis 2:1-3, therefore he referred to the seventh day as being blessed and sanctified from the perspective of God's law to Israel. There is no evidence the seventh day was a creation ordinance for all nations. Not one man prior to Israel under Moses ever saw or read Genesis 2:1-3. There was confusion in Israel about the seventh day and manna gathering in Exodus 16, which shows that the Israelites had not been observing the Sabbath prior to their departure from Egypt.

Ah yes, now it comes down to us having to accept RB's explanations of why Moses said or wrote what he really didn't mean. He was just preconditioned to write what he did, not as truth from God, but his own speculations of how it must have been after Hearing and seeing God's commandments for Israel. You are now on dangerous ground my friend. You are denying the validity of the testimony of scripture according to your own supposed superior insight and or understanding. You are now practicing the same maneuvers as "Christian evolutionists", who redefine the book of Genesis to suite their own chosen beliefs over and above the plain testimony of scripture. What of the fourth commandment itself, do you now deny that God Himself spoke them to Israel, and wrote them with His finger on tables of stone as scripture testifies? Did Moses make them up as well? If not, why did God say He blessed and sanctified the day at creation in His fourth commandment? I guess your really saying that Moses made it all up, are you not?

There were no nations to observe God's Sabbath at creation, just Adam and Eve. The fall occurred before they had children or the development of any nations. The Sabbath and God were forgotten and abandoned by almost all of humanity before the flood. The same occurred again after the flood. The children of Israel themselves forgot the Sabbath and much else during their over 400 years in Egypt. Thus the commandment says remember the Sabbath, which all of humanity is obviously prone to forget. 

You may want to consider that the apostles only mentioned the seventh day three times in all the New Testament epistles, and not once did they recommend it. Paul did write that the seventh day was a figurative picture of our salvation rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:3-5). Paul wrote that the seventh day, the Sabbath, was not binding on Christians, for it was only a figurative shadow of the reality of Christ, and true saints rejected such ordinances (Colossians 2:13-23) and NOT to allow other men to judge us in regards to the Sabbaths days.  Paul wrote that observance of Jewish days was a private matter of personal liberty (Romans 14:1-23). Paul considered keeping of Jewish days made the gospel of Jesus Christ of no value (Galatians 4:9-11). Paul thoroughly compared the Old and New Testaments, showing the inferiority and passing away of the Old, which included the Fourth Commandment written in stone (2nd Corinthians 3:6-18).  Paul did indeed observe the seventh day, the Sabbath, only to win ignorant Jews and Gentile proselytes that were still keeping the Law of Moses (Acts 9:20; 13:14,42; 15:21; 16:13; 17:1-3; 18:4; Ist Corinthians 9:20).

Why would the Apostles who were all Jews and kept the seventh day Sabbath, have to tell those who were already keeping it, to do so? To the contrary, their Jewish brethren were already giving the Sabbath to much emphasis and even burdening it with many man made rules and regulations added to it. This is why Jesus addressed the Sabbath issue several times, and taught its proper observance.

Paul did not do any of the things you accuse him of. He did not contradict his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by preaching and teaching that the commandments of God have been changed, and he certainly will not be called least in the kingdom of heaven for doing what you falsely claim. The sabbath days he referred to in the verses you listed were sabbaths connected to the ceremonial laws, not the fourth commandment of the ten commandments. Others were not sabbath days at all. Paul himself said we should keep the commandments of God, that they were spiritual and good. They don't need to change, we do. You are simply guilty of doing with Paul's writings, that which was being done already during the days of the apostles, which the apostle Peter warned us about.

2 Pet 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to [h]become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God.(AMP)

If you wish to obey and worship Paul over and above Jesus Christ in that which you have construed in his teachings to contradict Jesus', go to. I will not raise any Apostle or prophet of scripture above Jesus Christ by subjecting His words and teachings to theirs, but will always subject their words and teachings to the words spoken by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, King of kings, and Lord of lords. You might want to take some of your Saviors own advice in the following scriptures and worship Christ above him.

1 Cor 1:10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.[size]

Paul is not your or anyone else's Savior. Nor is he "the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus Christ is all of the same. Paul's words and teachings are subject to Christ's, not the other way around. The Apostle Paul taught nothing which contradicts the following words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What a disappointment it will be for the Apostle Paul, to find that so many twisted his testimony to contradict the words of his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jesus kept the seventh day, the Sabbath, for the same reasons He kept the rest of the Jewish laws, like circumcision. He was born a Jew under the laws of the Jews (Galatians 4:4-5; Matthew 5:17; Romans 15:8).

Repeating a phrase over and over, never makes it true. The Sabbath was established at creation by God long before there ever was a Jew. God spoke the Sabbath commandment along with the other ten, personally to the entire nation of Israel. He also wrote it in stone along with the other ten, with His own finger. God calls the Sabbath His many times over, when addressing the Jews. During the old covenant the prophet Isaiah pronounced a blessing upon all who would keep God's Sabbath, and prophesied that all would keep it in the new heaven and new earth as well.

Isa 56:1Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Isa 66:22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Both of the above prophecies directly refer to non Jews keeping God's Sabbath, and being blessed for it. It is God's Sabbath, not the Jewish Sabbath. Isaiah admonished all to keep it, prophesied that the gentiles would keep it, and that all the saved would keep it in the new heaven and new earth. All of this is denied by RB and those who reject God's Sabbath, and preach just the opposite. They contradict God's prophets and the testimony of Jesus Christ the WORD OF GOD, by claiming the Apostle Paul himself did as well, and they are his followers. So be it.

Jesus appeared to His disciples on the first day of the week, not the seventh (Matthew 28:8-10; Mark 16:9-14; Luke 24:33-48; John 20:19-25). Jesus blessed His disciples on the first day of the week, not the seventh (John 20:19). Jesus gave His disciples the Holy Spirit on the first day of the week, not the seventh (John 20:23).

Yes, He rose on the first day of the week after resting in the tomb during the Sabbath. He did all of the above on that day. None of which means, or was ever said to mean by any of the Apostles or any scripture anywhere, that the fourth commandment is no longer, and the first day of the week is now holy. This is what RB, others, and more specifically the Roman Catholic Church contend, not what scripture teaches anywhere. To the contrary, what they claim directly contradicts what Jesus Christ Himself and the scriptures already shared do say. These have taken it upon themselves to end one of God's commandments, and create a new one, which has been forced upon countless people throughout history by human laws. This making themselves guilty of the very thing Jesus Christ accused the legalistic Jews of doing.

Mark 7:6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Our Lord and Savior quoted from Isaiah, the very prophet who prophesied that all God's own should and would observe God's seventh day Sabbath. Today countless "Christians" are doing exactly what Jesus reprimanded the Jews of His day for doing. Laying aside and rejecting a commandment of God, that they may keep their own tradition. This, though there is no scripture to support such at all, only warnings and rebukes against doing any such thing. So be it.

Many dead saints rose from the dead on the first day of the week, not the seventh (Matt 27:52-53).

The first day of the week, not the seventh, was a time of great joy and gladness at the resurrection of Christ the Lord (Luke 24:41; John 20:20).

Jesus Christ gave forth the promised Holy Spirit from the Father on the first day of the week, not the seventh, for Pentecost was the 50th day after the Sabbath following the wave offering (Leviticus 23:15-16 cp Acts 2:1 cp Acts 2:33). Pentecost was always on the first day of the week, Sunday.

None of which means the testimony of Jesus Christ and scripture concerning the ten commandments should be contradicted by the doing away of one of God's commandments. Choosing to do so, is choosing to make Christ's life, death, and resurrection do exactly what he specifically said He did not come to do. It is antichrist. It is the work of the man of sin, who set himself up in the temple of God, telling himself that he is God. As do all, who contradict the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and seek to make His salvation for us the means of changing the law of God which itself demands our salvation because it cannot be changed. In saying that the sacrifice of Christ for humanity was the means of changing the law of God, one denies the gospel of Jesus Christ and verily then Christ Himself. Why do you think He told us specifically, that He did not come to do, what RB and so many other demand He did?

Rom 7:11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

You should listen to all of Paul's testimony, not just that which you have twisted to your own ends. The commandments are spiritual, holy, just, and good. We are not. It does not need to be changed or done away with, we do. In Christ we can be done away with and become new creatures in Christ Jesus. this for the purpose of walking in the Spirit as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did. This that the law of God can be fulfilled within us as it was within Him. Which is why He kept the seventh day Sabbath of God according to the commandment of God, not to keep laws of the Jews.

It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law of God, nor can be. All who reject the fourth commandment of God, and refuse to keep it, choose to be carnally minded. They claim that Jesus came to do exactly what he said He did not come to do, and claim the Apostle Paul taught exactly the opposite of his own words quoted above teach. They have chosen deception. So be it.

The early church met on the first day of the week for religious worship and breaking bread in the Lord's Supper (Acts 20:6-7).

Paul commanded all the Gentile churches to observe the first day of the week for their religious worship of giving (Ist Corinthians 16:1-2)...NOT on the Sabbath

More verses twisted to your own ends of deception.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Breaking bread was not a reference to the Lord's supper, it simply meant eating. They did it every day, not just on Sundays. Those peddling deception twist the verses and meaning to their own ends. People preach to each other all the time at any gatherings even today, not just on Sundays. The verses quoted are not referring to a Sunday service but in the minds of those demanding it to be so to back up their deceptions.

1 Cor 16:Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

Why will you continue to twist scripture to your own ends? This is not healthy. There was no religious gathering as you suggest. Each was to lay some aside, they were not taking up a collection at a religious gathering. Christians kept the seventh day Sabbath for centuries after Christ, and many always have. This is the testimony of history. Why will you deny this, and try to peddle the deception that the Apostles established Sunday sacredness and worship, while abandoning the fourth commandment?

When all the apostles and elders met for the only inspired church council in history, the matter at hand was to identify what parts of Moses' law applied to converted Gentiles. With this perfect opportunity, the seventh day issue was totally ignored by the Holy Spirit and these men (Acts 15). Amo, Why is this so? Does this bother you? It should.

Why should this bother me. It was certainly right that the early church should determine what laws written by the hand of Moses, many of which were meant to end or be changed after Christ, should be kept by converts, if any. The new testament addresses many of these changes. There is no problem here at all. The problem lies within your false assertion that the ten commandments including the fourth spoken and written to and for Israel by God Himself, is the law of Moses. The Sabbath itself again being established by God at creation long before Moses or a Jew ever existed. I am not the one ignoring the testimony of scripture from one end to the other concerning the keeping of the commandments of God. You are.

Jesus appeared to John on the Lord's Day, which would have to be Sunday, for Jesus Christ, as Lord of the Sabbath, had changed the day for God's worship to Sunday (Matthew 12:8; Revelation 1:10).You are correct, very sad that you think that this is true of others and cannot be true of you and your sect.

A totally false statement. There are only two days ever referred to in scripture as the Lord's day or the day of the Lord, the day of Christ's second coming, and the seventh day Sabbath of God. Your carnal mind declares that Jesus Christ changed God's chosen day of worship and fourth commandment from the seventh day to the first day of the week. The Holy Spirit filled Son of God, who is God testifies against you. So be it.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.