The Old Testement & The New Testement ?

[4WD]

One more time....Now, my freind, do you understand what I was saying?

The real question here is do you understand what you were saying.  And I think the answer to that is no. For you do not understand that you are wrong.

[RB]

The real question here is do you understand what you were saying.  And I think the answer to that is no. For you do not understand that you are wrong.

I like how you evaded my question! That's cunning on your part. You know 4WD, NO ONE knows when they are wrong....that's called deception, which WE ALL are subject to while living in this body of sin and death.

[Choir Loft]

I wonder how many really do understand the difference that there is ?
From the old testament and the new testament ??

Becoming saved is so much different.

From the time before JESUS and

The time after the Cross........ ??

You are apparently referring to Dispensationalism, which is an aberrant perversion of the gospel as presented in scripture.

"I did not come to abolish the law, I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

Many of the post modern church mistakenly believe the Law has been destroyed or neutralized somehow by the cross.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

According to the Law, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  (Romans 3:23)

According to the Law, the penalty for sin is death.  (Ezekiel 18:20a & Romans 6:23)

According to the Law, (Leviticus 3 & 4) God allowed a substitute to pay the penalty of death for sin.  An animal could be sacrificed on behalf of a sinner.  Blood is required because the life of an animal is in its blood.  All its blood is required in payment for sin because death is the penalty for sin.  (Leviticus 17:14)

According to the Law, (Leviticus 4:27-29) the sinner must come personally before the altar of grace, bring the sacrifice with him or her and slaughter it before God.  The sinner must do this personally.  No one else can do it for them - according to the Law.

According to the Law, the person thus forgiven of sin by the blood of sacrifice is required to live thereafter according to the Law (Psalm 119:1)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:18

The Law still stands, but if the Law is not abolished in the New Covenant how has Christ fulfilled it?

According to the Law, God Himself died upon the cross to provide the sacrifice for sin.  (1 Peter 2:24)

Animal sacrifices were temporary because they had to be performed continually.  Christ's death fulfills the Law and makes it perfect because He died once for all.

But the Law still stands.

In order to be forgiven our sin, we must approach the altar of grace personally - according to the Law.
Also, according to the Law, we must bring our sacrifice with us - our sacrifice being Christ Jesus.

If my plumbing leaks I can consult a Do It Yourself book on plumbing.   The book will tell me what tools and materials I need to fix the leak and the book will tell me what steps to take to repair the leak.  The book will also tell me how to keep the leak from happening again.  The book doesn't fix the leak.  I must do that myself.  I can wave the book at the leak all day long and it will do nothing.  Likewise the Law tells us what God expects of us and how to live.

The Law convinces us of sin.
The Law tells us that we need to repent of our sin.
The Law tells us that we need to personally go to God and ask for forgiveness.
The Law tells us that we cannot be forgiven without a blood sacrifice. 
According to the Law, the only sacrifice God will accept in payment for sin is Christ's death upon the cross.
According to the Law, we must thereafter live lives without sin before God.

When Jesus came upon a woman caught in adultery He forgave her and said, "Go now and leave your life of sin." (John 8:11b)  Jesus did NOT tell her to go out and open a brothel. 

The Law still stands.   

The major difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is the perfect sacrifice of Christ Jesus upon the cross.  It's perfect because it is done once for all time, not a temporary animal sacrifice as in the Old Covenant.   Otherwise the Law still stands.

If the Law is abolished, as some say today, then there would be no provision for forgiveness of sin and all of us would die in our sins.   May it never be.  The Law still stands.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

[Choir Loft]

The point being that the New Testament believer is 'justified by faith through our Lord Jesus Christ' and has 'peace with God' (Romans 5), because God is entirely satisfied with the work of His Son at the Cross.

I just don't understand how ppl can insist that we must be taken back to the law.

We are saved by faith according to the Law.  The Law does not subvert grace, it upholds it.  Neither does grace replace the Law.  Both work together unto redemption. 

Law alone cannot save because the purpose of the Law is to direct us to Christ.   Grace is null and void if we use it to break the Law. 
"If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. - Ezekiel 33:18

Fake grace is taught and preached in today's post modern churches.   Happy talk and prosperity are promised for the sole purpose of increasing attendance and inspiring donations.  The need for repentance and Law are never mentioned because these are hard words to swallow.  Broken grace is taught to keep everyone comfortable with political correctness, but there is NO grace if appeals to it are used to justify sin.  When the grace of God is abandoned or perverted that which remains is a terrible fear of judgment - according to the Law.  (Proverbs 21:15)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Grace blesses us with faith, which is a seal or guarantee of redemption.  It is based upon that which the Law demands.

If there is no Law as basis for salvation, then Jesus died for nothing.   May it never be - because Jesus died according to the Law and by the Law so that we may be saved and sanctified according to the Law and live in eternal blessings according to the Law.   

Upon what then is faith based if not upon the Law?   

It is based upon Christ's sacrifice for us according to the Law.   Those who are saved by faith are justified according to the Law and called to live by the Law.   

The opposite of Lawfulness is Lawlessness.   One either lives lawfully before God or one lives in lawless sin before God.  There is no middle ground and no sitting upon the fence.

Christianity is not a spectator sport.

According to the Law, every man and woman is judged for their sin. 
Those who come to God in humble repentance and ask forgiveness must appeal to the cross for their sacrifice for sin - according to the Law.
Those who are forgiven their sin according to the Law are said to be justified.  According to the Law they are no longer guilty of sin.
God provides the substitutionary death of Christ on our behalf AS AN ACT OF GRACE we do not deserve.  <-- THIS is the good news of the gospel.

Grace is NOT a get-out-of-jail-free card.   The entire process of redemption is based upon the Law, which requires each of us to participate personally.

Those who do NOT come to God in humble repentance and who do NOT appeal to the cross for their sacrifice for sin will NOT be forgiven - according to the Law.

Those who do not live by the Law will die by the Law.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[NorrinRadd]

Choir Loft, do you or any of the others advocating so strongly for keeping the Law have specific -- and hopefully concise and understandable -- responses to what I posted in Reply 29?  As I said in Reply 36, it would not take much effort to come with about as many additional ones.

Is there any good reason why the sentiments I express in Reply 20 should not apply to you?

If (as I believe likely) we each produce a selection of Scriptures "clearly" and "definitively" supporting our own views, what authoritative and objective source of guidance determines which to prioritize?

[Elioenai]

What they call the The Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures and The New Testament/Greek Scriptures is a Unified Book. This Unified Truth has been lost to all except about 10 in 1 billion people, due to the monopoly of false doctrine dispersed all over the world by Freemasons/Dirty Fake White Jews/Sabbatean Frankists.

Yahweh/Jehovah/Yehovah Elohim is using the Filthy Fake White Jews as an instrument to punish those that reject his Law and to try his Elect. Unknown to his enemies, Yahweh/Jehovah/Yehovah Elohim has Power and Dominion over them.



Malachi 3:6 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

6 For I [am] Jehovah, I have not changed, And ye, the sons of Jacob, Ye have not been consumed.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi+3%3A6&version=YLT

[RB]

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

That's about all you are doing, not much more than that, even though you think otherwise.

The Law convinces us of sin.
The Law tells us that we need to repent of our sin.
The Law tells us that we need to personally go to God and ask for forgiveness.
The Law tells us that we cannot be forgiven without a blood sacrifice. 
According to the Law, the only sacrifice God will accept in payment for sin is Christ's death upon the cross.
According to the Law, we must thereafter live lives without sin before God.

Most every point that you mention are wrong in the manner in which you said what you said~especially so the last one. No one can live without sin, even though it should be our desire NOT TO SIN, but sin according to the law of God IS mixed in our very best efforts to serve God, to believe otherwise is only showing one's deep deception.

I'm going to post a verse by verse exposition of Galatians three within two days or so that will reveal the TRUE differences between the Law and the gospel. I'll wait and address your points then.

[Amo]

Your post is nothing more than ranting and raging and as Paul would say~vain jangling.

I will only say two things since you used no scriptures, there is not anything to have a reasonable dialogue over~I DO know some SDA, they have worked for me for years~So, I know their INCONSISTENCIES, as it relates to the laws given to Moses, and the seventh day Sabbath in particularly. It just does not stop with this doctrine of keeping the seventh day Sabbath, they are laden with WORKS in the doctrine of soteriology. I KNOW because I have met with them personally and talk with them, and I have had hundreds of conversation with the ones that worked for me. I never asked them to work on Saturday, even though my men did many times over, and still do~I respected their consciences in serving God according to the light they had, even though I did not agree with their understanding. So, yes I do know them somewhat, enough to say what I said above.

Secondly, I agree that Genesis 2:2, 3~was given FOR MAN's good, to serve him in refreshing his body and allowing him to set a day aside to elevate his thoughts off of the world unto God, yet Genesis 2:2, 3 and the Sabbath law that given by Moses to Israel is different, much different, and I also will say, that the burden is on YOUR SECT to prove where ANYONE practiced the sabbath as it was given by Moses to Israel, and as THEY observed it.....and while you are at that task, prove ALSO, where in the NT that believers are COMMANDED to remember the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH as it was given to Israel, JUST ONE VERSE would be sufficient~now, do not waste much time, for IT IS NOT THERE...you know that, and so do others outside of the sect of the SDA.

Sir, what does the "first day" of the week in the NT mean to you and your sect?

Same denial and nonsense. It is not Moses Sabbath, and the Ten Commandments are not Moses law. You deny a whole lot of scripture in demanding either. God spoke the Sabbath into existence at creation just as He spoke all else into existence at creation. Until He says otherwise, it is a sure as the rest of creation. It will certainly exist as long as the present world. Jesus Christ conclusively stated that He did not come to change the Sabbath or any other commandment of God, so we know He who is God did not change it when here as one of us. Scripture says nothing at all about another day being instituted in its place, or ever conveys the idea of the first day of the week being made holy in any way shape or form. The scriptures do say that the Sabbath will be kept in the new heaven and new earth, and do encourage all to keep the commandments of God which will of course include the fourth, right up to the last book and chapter of the bible.

You completely ignore all of this, and then demand that scripture be shown where Jesus or the apostles re-commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath during a time when over strenuous and burdensome observation of the Sabbath was being pushed upon all. Which situation brought about the need for Jesus to address the Sabbath issue more than once to straighten out and teach its proper observance in contrast to the legalistic burden of the same being pushed upon all by the scribes and pharisees. During which time Jesus not only never indicated any change in or of the same, but decisively declared He did not come to change any of God's law. Somehow all of this equates to the Sabbath being changed for RB and many others. Go figure.

Obviously the first day of the week does not mean to me and my sect, what it does to you and your sect. We choose to observe God's Sabbath as established in scripture. You choose to observe a Sabbath established by the tradition of man. Which said men or more specifically man claims to be the first day of the week. We think this man is the man of sin, you think concerning this particular point in any case, that this man is the expositor of truth. He says -

The following is from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Sunday- fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:[107] 
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.[108]

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."[109] Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

A day of grace and rest from work
2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"[121] human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.[122]

2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.[123] Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health. 
The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.[124]

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]

IN BRIEF
2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).

2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).

2192 "Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 # 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

2193 "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound . . . to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247).

2194 The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their amilial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 # 3).

2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day.

We stick to the scriptures, and believe that God would have told us if He intended to change His Sabbath from one day to another.


Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Exod 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exod 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Deut 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Ezek 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my Sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Ezek 22: 8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 22: 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Ezek 23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 44:24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Neh 9:13-14 13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: 14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

None but God could possibly change God's Sabbath. When God came to us in the flesh, He specifically stated that He did not come to change any of His commandments. The Sabbath and Ten Commandments are His as stating in scripture many times. No man can change or reject them but at their own peril. Doing so is placing ones self above God, which is exactly what sin is, which is exactly why we need to be saved from it.

Exod 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Exod 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Lev 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; 4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

Num 15:40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. 41 I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

Deut 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deut 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deut 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandmentswhich I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, 14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. 15 And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.

My sect observes God's Sabbath the seventh day, your sect observes man's Sabbath the first day. We observe ours by faith in the word of God. You observe yours by faith in the word of man, or by the force of man's laws many times over to date, and as my sect believes ever increasingly in the future. Each day being chosen as a representation by all of where their true allegiance lies as the final decision before the two separate harvests of this world are reaped.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

[Michael2012]

Amo,

You said "Jesus Christ conclusively stated that He did not come to change the Sabbath or any other commandment of God, so we know He who is God did not change it when here as one of us."

What can you say of the commandment regarding the Sabbath, included in the ten commandments?
How was it observed or fulfilled during the OT?
How do you FULFILL it today, or how does the Christian FULFILL it today, in the NT?

[Jaime]

Another question is how did Jesus Fill Full the Sabbath? I would suggest he added the spirit of the law to the aleady existing letter of the law. He FILLED what was not full. Hey, in other words He fulfilled it.

[RB]

Same denial and nonsense. It is not Moses Sabbath, and the Ten Commandments are not Moses law. You deny a whole lot of scripture in demanding either. God spoke the Sabbath into existence at creation just as He spoke all else into existence at creation.

Just as I said to Choir Loft, so say I to you:

I'm going to post a verse by verse exposition of Galatians three within two days or so that will reveal the TRUE differences between the Law and the gospel. I'll wait and address your points then.

I'm posting on another forum on another subject, so I need time and should have more this week, maybe.

[RB]

Galatians chapter three is one of the most powerful sections of God's word to refute the improper use of the law of God, to the intent that it presents another gospel, which departs from the true doctrine of grace, and in truth denies the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; even though the one affected by the bewitching spirit would never confess that he's under the spell of false prophets, but will vehemently fight against such ministers as Paul, when they hear the truth presented according to the word of God~that's called in the scriptures as living under a strong delusion.

Galatians 3:1~"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?"

Without spending a lot of time of each verse, let us briefly consider this most important section of God's word.

There are two spirits in this world that oppose each other~the Spirit of the Living God, which is the Spirit of TRUTH, and the spirit of the wicked one, which is the spirit of lies. One exalts Jesus Christ and him crucified as the only means of FREE justification by his faith and obedience as the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God that He provided for the remission of our sins, and the sinners only hope of eternal life.

There are evil men under the spell of Satan, that are using that same bewitching spirit to deceive others.

There is only one gospel to preach, which is Paul's gospel (Ist Corinthians 2:1-5; Galatians 1:8-9; 6:14). Paul had preached Christ crucified with plain speech and powerful evidences, which was his chosen manner and method as true food for the sheep, for Paul was not after goats~for he was seeking them that had life~ ( 2nd Timothy 2:10 Acts 9:20; 17:2-3; 2nd Corinthians 2:14-17). They had fully seen and understood Christ's death and its purpose to save through Paul's preaching, which made their crime so great in turning to the vain works of the Law. True children of God can never compromise on this gospel to attract the unregenerate.

Galatians 3:2~"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Here is the first of five consecutive rhetorical arguments rebuking the Galatians for apostasy. This is a sharp rebuke of these foolish churches and saints for leaving the gospel Paul taught. He is confronting them with the source of the great spiritual blessings they had enjoyed. Why in the world would they return to the works of the Law, which never provided such! This only would I learn of you is not Paul's last question! But he stressed the important issue! We say, "I want to know just one thing," but we are stressing one of many questions.  Note how Paul goes on to ask many questions (3:3,4,5,19,21; 4:9,15,16,21,30; 5:7,11). Asking questions and then answering them is a great method of teaching others.  This is the promised gift of the Spirit from God through Christ (John 7:39; Acts 2:33-38; 5:32). The gift of the Holy Spirit was visible in the early church (Acts 8:14-19; 10:44-48; 19:1-7).  We must understand "faith" here for the object of faith, Jesus Christ or the gospel of Christ. You cannot literally hear faith, and faith cannot literally hear, for hearing is the use of your audio nerves to pick up audible sound, and faith is confident trust in some things. A metonym substitutes a related aspect of a thing for the thing itself~here the means of receiving the good news of Jesus Christ and salvation by Him alone is described as faith. Metonyms add force to language by focusing on a particular relationship to the thing described, which in this case is stressing faith against the works of the Law of Moses.

Galatians 3:3~"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

Here is the second of five consecutive rhetorical arguments rebuking Galatia for apostasy. Returning to the charge of foolishness (3:1), Paul rebuked them for leaving their first faith. They began with spiritual blessings in the gospel, and now they pursued fleshly rituals! Since you got started in great blessings through the Spirit, will you turn now to the flesh? Since you got started in great blessings through the Spirit, will the flesh lift you higher and make you more acceptable? How could the glorious and superior gospel of Christ be improved by the inferior Law? Their conversion had resulted in great blessings by the Spirit, but now they were in the flesh. The gift of the Spirit was based on spiritual faith to believe in Jesus Christ (John 7:39). The Galatians had believed and obeyed the spiritual religion of Jesus Christ, but now they had added works of the flesh apart from the Spirit of Christ, in order to improve further? The works of the Law did not involve the Spirit; they were flesh actions done outwardly. They thought to improve on Jesus Christ by circumcision and avoiding pepperoni pizza! Paul called the Law of Moses and its commandments weak and unprofitable (Heb 7:18), carnal ordinances (Hebrews 9:10), rudiments of the world (Colossians 2:8,20), and beggarly elements in this very epistle (Galatians 4:9).

[4WD]

A metonym substitutes a related aspect of a thing for the thing itself~here the means of receiving the good news of Jesus Christ and salvation by Him alone is described as faith. Metonyms add force to language by focusing on a particular relationship to the thing described, which in this case is stressing faith against the works of the Law of Moses.

I think you have correctly noted that Paul is using metonymy here; however, I think you have missed the critical point he is making with his use of metonymy.  Your version here stands in direct opposition to what he said in Romans 10:17.  Here you say that faith is the means of receiving the good news; but in Romans 10:17 Paul clearly says that receiving the good news, i.e., hearing the word about Christ, is the means whereby we come to faith. Clearly you have misinterpreted and misunderstood Paul's metonym here.  Faith, the metonymy here in Galatians 3, can only be seen as referring to the religion, the system, the gospel; namely, it is the whole process whereby God has provided for the redemption of the believer  --  God's plan of salvation.  It is as Paul declares in Romans 1:16; "....it [the gospel] is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes..."

[RB]

I think you have correctly noted that Paul is using metonymy here; however, I think you have missed the critical point he is making with his use of metonymy.  Your version here stands in direct opposition to what he said in Romans 10:17.  Here you say that faith is the means of receiving the good news; but in Romans 10:17 Paul clearly says that receiving the good news, i.e., hearing the word about Christ, is the means whereby we come to faith.

4WD, I agree with you~ I believe and teach that both are true, yet faith is not the means of one being born again, but the fruit of the INDWELLING Spirit of one that that has been quickened to life by the Spirit of God. We will see this in just a few verses if you will allow me to first prove it with the scriptures of truth.

Enjoy the Lord's Day~according to the spirit and faith of Isaiah 56.

[4WD]

4WD, I agree with you~ I believe and teach that both are true, yet faith is not the means of one being born again, but the fruit of the INDWELLING Spirit of one that that has been quickened to life by the Spirit of God. We will see this in just a few verses if you will allow me to first prove it with the scriptures of truth.

Enjoy the Lord's Day~according to the spirit and faith of Isaiah 56.

I think you are wrong about faith not being the means, the condition, for one to be born again, but I will stand by for your "proof" with the Scriptures.

[4WD]

We stick to the scriptures, and believe that God would have told us if He intended to change His Sabbath from one day to another.

You stick to the Scriptures as you want to read the Scriptures.  The question here, it seems to me, is what is the seventh day.  Clearly, the seventh day is simply the day following six days of work.

Exo 20:8  "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9  "Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Exo 20:10  but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

Everyone, at least most, grab onto the day of rest, but fail to give any heed to the commandment that "Six days you shall labor and do all your work" .  What constitutes the seventh day depends entirely on what is counted as the first day of work.  Clearly today, we begin the work week with Monday, not Sunday.  In that regard, then Sunday is obviously the seventh day.  You do not hold to the Hebrew practice of the day beginning at 6:00 PM; why is it necessary to hold to the Hebrew practice of the work week beginning Sunday?  Answer  --  it isn't.  The command is not Saturday.  The command is rest on the seventh day.  Sabbath, against what so many think, does not mean seventh.  It means rest.  And that day of rest is, according to the ten commandments, following the six days of work.  And that for nearly the entire modern world is Sunday.

[RB]

You stick to the Scriptures as you want to read the Scriptures.  The question here, it seems to me, is what is the seventh day.  Clearly, the seventh day is simply the day following six days of work.

Exo 20:8  "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9  "Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Exo 20:10  but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

Everyone, at least most, grab onto the day of rest, but fail to give any heed to the commandment that "Six days you shall labor and do all your work" .  What constitutes the seventh day depends entirely on what is counted as the first day of work.  Clearly today, we begin the work week with Monday, not Sunday.  In that regard, then Sunday is obviously the seventh day.  You do not hold to the Hebrew practice of the day beginning at 6:00 PM; why is it necessary to hold to the Hebrew practice of the work week beginning Sunday?  Answer  --  it isn't.  The command is not Saturday.  The command is rest on the seventh day.  Sabbath, against what so many think, does not mean seventh.  It means rest.  And that day of rest is, according to the ten commandments, following the six days of work.  And that for nearly the entire modern world is Sunday.

+1 Amen...... Amo, I'm not saying this to shout back into your face, but to support the truth, which 4WD summed up in a few short words.

[Amo]

Amo,

You said "Jesus Christ conclusively stated that He did not come to change the Sabbath or any other commandment of God, so we know He who is God did not change it when here as one of us."

What can you say of the commandment regarding the Sabbath, included in the ten commandments?
How was it observed or fulfilled during the OT?
How do you FULFILL it today, or how does the Christian FULFILL it today, in the NT?

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It is pretty self explanatory. It is a day of rest from work to spend more quality time with God and realign or adjust our lives according to the fact that He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Savior. The exactness of how it should be observed can vary somewhat according to various circumstance. It is not meant to be a burdensome list of rules and regs concerning what is and what is not work to be rigidly enforced. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ demonstrated the fallacy of this mind set when here on earth, seeking to liberate His true followers from the burden the religious leaders of the day had made it, that they might once again be rested and refreshed by the day, not weighed down and burdened by endless rules regarding the same.

On the other hand, the Lord was very specific and serious with the nation of Israel when trying to reestablish the observance of the seventh day Sabbath among those He chose as His people. He intended that the Sabbath be taken very seriously, no doubt since humanity was obviously so very prone to forget and or ignore this institution established by God for our own good. The world may forget God's Sabbath, but His people absolutely were not to do so. It was and is a sign that they believe God is who and what He says He is. Which truth the fourth commandment clearly points out. Sabbath observance during the formation and establishment of the nation of Israel had a nature of its own for that particular time and place, as it often may under varying circumstance. It was being reestablished by God among a people who professed His name, during a time of special and miraculous deliverance, establishment, and sustenance. He could and did instruct them very specifically regarding certain issues of Sabbath observance not only as a matter of establishing that which humanity was so prone to ignore, but also pertaining to the unusual circumstance of the times. It is one thing for God Himself to do this when He is directly and miraculously leading a people. It is another for human beings to begin making up strenuous lists of what they deem acceptable or not on Sabbath days for everyone else. These are the problems Jesus addressed during His time with us here regarding the keeping of God's Sabbath.

It is as it ever was concerning all things. Keep it simple stupid. The more rules, regs, and penalties you apply to anything, the more complicated and confusing all issues pertaining to the same become. Then you need people to enforce all of the same, successfully creating another beast of its own for all to contend with. Part of the sin problem is the non stop desire to control and manipulate all around us according to our own desires or habit. In this way we all pollute the temple of God. May God cleanse us all from such petty and selfish motivations. May we each learn to submit to His will alone, by faith in His word. I do not desire to control or manipulate any of you regarding Sabbath worship or not. Please do make up your own minds. I am simply sharing what I believe with you, and my concerns regarding this issue at hand. While I will certainly argue or debate many issues, I have no desire whatsoever, in any way shape or form, to infringe upon the freedom of choice we all have at the infinite price of the life of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I would never consider forcing God's Sabbath upon anyone anywhere. It is the beasts of biblical prophecy that force worship upon humanity, not God. He has shown us through the death of His own Son, just how far He would rather go, than force anyone to worship Him. Praise His holy, pure, and undefiled name.

[Amo]

You stick to the Scriptures as you want to read the Scriptures.  The question here, it seems to me, is what is the seventh day.  Clearly, the seventh day is simply the day following six days of work.

Exo 20:8  "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9  "Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Exo 20:10  but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

Everyone, at least most, grab onto the day of rest, but fail to give any heed to the commandment that "Six days you shall labor and do all your work" .  What constitutes the seventh day depends entirely on what is counted as the first day of work.  Clearly today, we begin the work week with Monday, not Sunday.  In that regard, then Sunday is obviously the seventh day.  You do not hold to the Hebrew practice of the day beginning at 6:00 PM; why is it necessary to hold to the Hebrew practice of the work week beginning Sunday?  Answer  --  it isn't.  The command is not Saturday.  The command is rest on the seventh day.  Sabbath, against what so many think, does not mean seventh.  It means rest.  And that day of rest is, according to the ten commandments, following the six days of work.  And that for nearly the entire modern world is Sunday.

I do not hold to Hebrew practices, I hold to biblical practices. A day does not begin at 6:00, it begins at sundown. For the most part, people don't work on Sundays today, because a half pagan half "Christian" emperor instituted Sunday rest laws that have been continued ever since in most "Christian" based nations. The Jews have kept God's seventh day Sabbath for thousands of years now. They have not forgotten which day it is, nor would God allow His people to do so. I understand as an evolutionist who does not believe the creation account of Genesis to be literal, your problems with a seven day week being established at creation. Such obviously has little foundation or meaning to you.

Your are correct about one thing though, Sunday is mans Sabbath. Thus it has been and will continue to be supported by mans laws even upon those who do not agree with it. Such is the nature of sin and sinners.

[Michael2012]

We are saved by faith according to the Law.  The Law does not subvert grace, it upholds it.  Neither does grace replace the Law.  Both work together unto redemption. 

Law alone cannot save because the purpose of the Law is to direct us to Christ.   Grace is null and void if we use it to break the Law. 
"If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. - Ezekiel 33:18

Fake grace is taught and preached in today's post modern churches.   Happy talk and prosperity are promised for the sole purpose of increasing attendance and inspiring donations.  The need for repentance and Law are never mentioned because these are hard words to swallow.  Broken grace is taught to keep everyone comfortable with political correctness, but there is NO grace if appeals to it are used to justify sin.  When the grace of God is abandoned or perverted that which remains is a terrible fear of judgment - according to the Law.  (Proverbs 21:15)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Grace blesses us with faith, which is a seal or guarantee of redemption.  It is based upon that which the Law demands.

If there is no Law as basis for salvation, then Jesus died for nothing.   May it never be - because Jesus died according to the Law and by the Law so that we may be saved and sanctified according to the Law and live in eternal blessings according to the Law.   

Upon what then is faith based if not upon the Law?   

It is based upon Christ's sacrifice for us according to the Law.   Those who are saved by faith are justified according to the Law and called to live by the Law.   

The opposite of Lawfulness is Lawlessness.   One either lives lawfully before God or one lives in lawless sin before God.  There is no middle ground and no sitting upon the fence.

Christianity is not a spectator sport.

According to the Law, every man and woman is judged for their sin. 
Those who come to God in humble repentance and ask forgiveness must appeal to the cross for their sacrifice for sin - according to the Law.
Those who are forgiven their sin according to the Law are said to be justified.  According to the Law they are no longer guilty of sin.
God provides the substitutionary death of Christ on our behalf AS AN ACT OF GRACE we do not deserve.  <-- THIS is the good news of the gospel.

Grace is NOT a get-out-of-jail-free card.   The entire process of redemption is based upon the Law, which requires each of us to participate personally.

Those who do NOT come to God in humble repentance and who do NOT appeal to the cross for their sacrifice for sin will NOT be forgiven - according to the Law.

Those who do not live by the Law will die by the Law.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You said "We are saved by faith according to the Law."

Scriptures say "by grace you have been saved through faith" 

You said "If there is no Law as basis for salvation, then Jesus died for nothing"

Scriptures say "if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." and;
Scriptures say "no one is justified by the law in the sight of God" and;

You said "who are saved by faith are justified according to the Law"

Scriptures say " there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith." and;
Scriptures say "no one is justified by the law in the sight of God"

[Amo]

+1 Amen...... Amo, I'm not saying this to shout back into your face, but to support the truth, which 4WD summed up in a few short words.

Yes, clearly you both think that the will of man determines God's law. To the contrary though, you both need God's salvation because His law cannot be changed by mere men, regardless of how many they are.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 14:47:51
Amo,

You said "Jesus Christ conclusively stated that He did not come to change the Sabbath or any other commandment of God, so we know He who is God did not change it when here as one of us."

What can you say of the commandment regarding the Sabbath, included in the ten commandments?
How was it observed or fulfilled during the OT?
How do you FULFILL it today, or how does the Christian FULFILL it today, in the NT?

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It is pretty self explanatory. It is a day of rest from work to spend more quality time with God and realign or adjust our lives according to the fact that He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Savior. The exactness of how it should be observed can vary somewhat according to various circumstance. It is not meant to be a burdensome list of rules and regs concerning what is and what is not work to be rigidly enforced. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ demonstrated the fallacy of this mind set when here on earth, seeking to liberate His true followers from the burden the religious leaders of the day had made it, that they might once again be rested and refreshed by the day, not weighed down and burdened by endless rules regarding the same.

On the other hand, the Lord was very specific and serious with the nation of Israel when trying to reestablish the observance of the seventh day Sabbath among those He chose as His people. He intended that the Sabbath be taken very seriously, no doubt since humanity was obviously so very prone to forget and or ignore this institution established by God for our own good. The world may forget God's Sabbath, but His people absolutely were not to do so. It was and is a sign that they believe God is who and what He says He is. Which truth the fourth commandment clearly points out. Sabbath observance during the formation and establishment of the nation of Israel had a nature of its own for that particular time and place, as it often may under varying circumstance. It was being reestablished by God among a people who professed His name, during a time of special and miraculous deliverance, establishment, and sustenance. He could and did instruct them very specifically regarding certain issues of Sabbath observance not only as a matter of establishing that which humanity was so prone to ignore, but also pertaining to the unusual circumstance of the times. It is one thing for God Himself to do this when He is directly and miraculously leading a people. It is another for human beings to begin making up strenuous lists of what they deem acceptable or not on Sabbath days for everyone else. These are the problems Jesus addressed during His time with us here regarding the keeping of God's Sabbath.

It is as it ever was concerning all things. Keep it simple stupid. The more rules, regs, and penalties you apply to anything, the more complicated and confusing all issues pertaining to the same become. Then you need people to enforce all of the same, successfully creating another beast of its own for all to contend with. Part of the sin problem is the non stop desire to control and manipulate all around us according to our own desires or habit. In this way we all pollute the temple of God. May God cleanse us all from such petty and selfish motivations. May we each learn to submit to His will alone, by faith in His word. I do not desire to control or manipulate any of you regarding Sabbath worship or not. Please do make up your own minds. I am simply sharing what I believe with you, and my concerns regarding this issue at hand. While I will certainly argue or debate many issues, I have no desire whatsoever, in any way shape or form, to infringe upon the freedom of choice we all have at the infinite price of the life of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I would never consider forcing God's Sabbath upon anyone anywhere. It is the beasts of biblical prophecy that force worship upon humanity, not God. He has shown us through the death of His own Son, just how far He would rather go, than force anyone to worship Him. Praise His holy, pure, and undefiled name.

What you said there, as I gather, pertains to the observance mainly with regards the OT.

In the NT, and so for the Christians, here's what scriptures say:

Romans 13:9-10
9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

[4WD]

Such is the nature of sin and sinners.

And such is your nature also.  So your argument fails.

[RB]

Yes, clearly you both think that the will of man determines God's law. To the contrary though, you both need God's salvation because His law cannot be changed by mere men, regardless of how many they are.

In what sense are you saying that we both need God's salvation? Are you saying that we both need to be born again, or that we need a clearer understanding of the truth? Please answer these questions. One is judging a person's heart and not his doctrine~one (or both, but ONLY God knows of one, we do not) may be correct, but I'm convinced more on your side of the fence. Waiting for your answer.

[NorrinRadd]

Amo, CL has taken a break from his "shouting" for the past few days.  Perhaps you would care to address Reply #74.

[RB]

Galatians 3:4~"Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain."

Here is the third of five consecutive rhetorical arguments rebuking Galatia for apostasy. Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, is glorious in marshaling rhetorical arguments! Here he turns to the persecution they endured for following Jesus Christ without the Law! The Jews had persecuted them, but they had not cared earlier, so their change was severe. In other words, After all you gave up to obey Christ, will you now follow men for peace? In other words, Did you pay a price to follow Christ, and now will you compromise Him? In other words, Was all your suffering for Jesus Christ just a stupid and empty decision? In other words, Only if you return to Christ will past suffering have been worthwhile. In other words, You counted and paid the cost of discipleship, but you want a refund?

Galatians 3:5~"He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

Here is the fourth of five consecutive rhetorical arguments rebuking Galatia for apostasy. The next one will take more than one or two posts to consider, so we will be short on the first four. Returning to a similar line of reasoning as 3:2, Paul refers to God's blessing on His ministers.

What is the hearing of faith? It is believing the preaching of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The apostles had authority to dispense the Holy Spirit as a gift to men (Acts 8:14-17; 19:6; etc) under the system of hearing of faith~Romans 10:13. The test here is the power and sign of miracles: the gospel had many; the Law had none.

[RB]

Galatians 3:6~ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

This is the most important scripture in the WHOLE of the scriptures for one to understand how our faith plays a part in the salvation plan that God ordained to remove the man from glorying, and placing all glory on Jesus Christ and the grace of God given freely through him to to us. Again this IS most important phrase we will ever seek to correctly understand proven by it being mentioned several times over. Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23. Miss understanding the sense in which Paul meant~"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." will lead one into believing in another gospel, and embracing that false gospel.

Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham's worship. The adverbial phrase, "even as", means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen. So many, if not most, believe that OT saints did not live under the same system that we do as NT saints as far as their justification, both legal and practical, but they are so wrong~Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6). This is precious and sweet, if we can grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles! The Judaizer false teachers could only offer some connection to Moses by circumcision~ours is greater, we connect to Abraham by the SAME SYSTEM~ faith ONLY as his TRUE CHILDREN.

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers that is still here with us today!

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matthew 3:9; John 8:33; Exodus3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Romans 4:9-12). For those trusting the Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Romans 4:13-16; Galatians 3:17).

A few more post coming on this one scripture to prove our point when finished. RB

[RB]

What did Abraham believe? Two to three things stand out worthy of our attention.

Hebrews 11:8-13~"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

Abraham looked for the same promises that we ourselves are looking for~A new earth and heavens, that is NOT of this earth. He had faith in God's promises, of giving him a spiritual seed, (Christ) through whom he should receive the promises with Issac being the type the spiritual children whom he was going to be a father of.

Genesis 15:4-6~"And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time? Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions.

Arminians hold conditional justification~ faith is the human condition for righteousness.

Calvinists hold instrumental justification~faith is the instrument receiving righteousness. We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham's faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Please consider:  Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham's justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! This is impossible and goes against ALL of the word of God. We ask: Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Genesis 14:18-20)? Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Genesis 15:1)! If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham's justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalms 106:30-31)!  Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what? Pray to tell me.

Later....RB 

[4WD]

The text says God accepted Abraham's faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

RB, you are doing it again. You are changing God's word to make it fit your false ideas.  Paul didn't say anything about faith being counted as evidence.  Abraham's faith wasn't counted as evidence.  It was counted, reckoned, as righteousness. 

(ASV)  Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

(ESV)  just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"

(NASB)  Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

(NIV)  So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

(NKJV)  just as Abraham "BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

(RV)  Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

All of these say basically the same thing. Nothing there about evidence of righteousness.  Abraham believed and righteousness was imputed to him.  Credited, accounted, reckoned, imputed all say the same thing.  Abraham was justified because he believed God.

Faith is not, as you contend, the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.  Faith is the basis upon which God imputes righteousness, i.e., God justifies, i.e, God saves.  God does not first save someone and then that saved one believes. God saves the one who believes. 

You said,

This is the most important scripture in the WHOLE of the scriptures for one to understand......

and yet you do not understand.

[RB]

RB, you are doing it again. You are changing God's word to make it fit your false ideas.  Paul didn't say anything about faith being counted as evidence.  Abraham's faith wasn't counted as evidence.  It was counted, reckoned, as righteousness.

That's the only sense that will flow with ALL scriptures and the many doctrines that are connected with those scriptures. I said:

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham's justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! This is impossible and goes against ALL of the word of God. We ask: Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Genesis 14:18-20)? Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Genesis 15:1)! If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham's justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalms 106:30-31)!  Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what? Pray to tell me.

WHY do you not disprove by examples here given instead of quoting false versions of scriptures, OR EVEN quoting the word of God, WITHOUT given them their God-ordained sense, where the hearers can understand the reading. That's the duty of the teacher of the word of God, something you have yet to do.

Gensis 15:6~"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

This is the FIRST time that Moses said these words concerning Abraham, YET, Abraham had been walking with God for several years by the time THIS WAS SAID of him. You refuse to acknowledge this truth.

I ask you again: Did the Phinehas' shish-ka-bob javelin act give EVIDENCE that he was righteous, or was his act the means of making him righteous? The very same language is used for him that Moses used in reference to Abraham's righteous acts of faith.

Psalms 106:28-31~"They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead. Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them. Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore."

Answer the question~Didi Phinehas' righteous acts of faith make him righteous, OR, did it PROVE that he was?

that was counted unto him for righteousness

Which is STILL true today~our ACTS of faith proves that we ARE righteous, they are NOT the means of becoming righteous.  It is you, sir, who is without understanding.

Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage? Abel, Enoch, and Noah were ignored, because they were not the "father" of Israel, though they proved their righteous character by their faith long before Abraham (Hebrews 11:4-7). God wrote Genesis 15:6 for the future use of Paul in showing the important role of faith to Jews trusting the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all!

[RB]

Galatians 3:8~"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."

What glorious comfort! Gentiles show they are Abraham's children in God's sight by faith! Paul has ended his sharp rebuke, as he preaches the gospel of peace to Gentiles. True identification with Abraham, the great friend of God, is by faith in Jesus Christ. Instead of being Jewish proselytes of Moses' Law, faith which worketh by love, takes Gentiles back to Abraham! God's promises to Abraham were made 430 years before He gave Moses the Law (3:17)! Delight in the plural children here, though the promises were to a singular seed (3:16), for Paul introduced the glorious fact that OT and NT saints are the promised seed!

Does an act of believing or a life of believing make you Abraham's child or only prove it? It only proves we are a child, just as loving enemies proves us His children (Matthew 5:48).

No man would believe on Christ without life first (John 3:3; 5:24,40; 6:44,65; 8:43,47; 10:26; Ist Cor 1:18,24; 2:14; 2nd Cor 2:14-17; 4:1-4; 2nd Thess 2:9-14; Eph 2:1; Ist John 5:1)! Scriptures we have looked at several times over.

James taught very clearly that faith by itself proves nothing of salvation (James 2:14-26). Peter taught very clearly that faith by itself proves nothing of salvation (2nd Peter 1:5-10). What faith is under consideration here? Just any old faith? In Moses? Or in Christ alone?

This must be faith used in a specific way to describe those in the religion of Jesus Christ. For this is the way Paul will describe the children of Abraham momentarily (3:26-29). Paul had not been using "faith" for bare believing or decisional salvation, but rather as a metonym against the confidence of some in justification by the works of the Law (3:2). The contrast is between a doctrine of salvation by the finished work of Christ evidenced by faith versus a doctrine of salvation by earning acceptance with God by Moses' Law. The faith that proves justification and acceptance with God is faith that believes God justifies the ungodly through Jesus Christ without human cooperation at all (Romans 4:5).

Paul is not describing the children of Abraham as those who made a mere decision for Jesus. The issue is plainly stated in many places, including 3:11, that the just shall live by faith. The Lord Jesus Christ condemned Jews that believed on Him momentarily (John 8:30-31). Faith is not decisional regeneration, but a strong commitment to believe and obey the gospel of Christ, bearing fruit of good works (Ist Thessalonians  1:2-4; James 2:14-26; 2nd Peter 1:5-11). The heresy of decisional regeneration is damnable. Paul means the life of faith, not an emotional moment in some "evangelistic" crusade with an organ and the will of man creating your response.

[4WD]

That's the only sense that will flow with ALL scriptures and the many doctrines that are connected with those scriptures.

What you really mean is that is the only sense that will flow with ALL your false doctrines.

WHY do you not disprove by examples here given instead of quoting false versions of scriptures, OR EVEN quoting the word of God, WITHOUT given them their God-ordained sense, where the hearers can understand the reading. That's the duty of the teacher of the word of God, something you have yet to do.

What else is there to do but to read what God said?  You, on the other hand have to change what God said. The duty of the teacher is to be faithful to what is written by God, not faithful to what was written by some wayward miscreant some hundreds of years after Paul.  Paul wrote, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" (Gal 3:6 ). He was quoting from the OT account in Genesis where Moses wrote, " And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Gen 15:6 ). Both what Paul wrote and what Moses wrote are without question and without any modification or additional words quite clear to anyone who would read them.

The sense is eminently clear.  Paul, in speaking to the Gentiles of Galatia, contends that a person's justification is by faith and not by works of the law and that this principle is not really new to the people of God.  Paul is highlighting two ideas; (1) acceptance of a person by God solely on the basis of that person's faith is as old as Abraham (Gen 15:6), and (2) Gentiles being accepted by God on the same basis as Jews is also as old as Abraham (Gal 3:8-9):. For this second point Paul said, "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham" (Gal 3:8-9). Here he quotes Genesis 12:3; 18:18 and 22:18.

The message of Paul here is clear.  It is not through doing the works of the law that a person is justified; but rather it is through believing in God, through the person's faith in God, that God imputes righteousness to him. He says,   'Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith" '(Gal 3:11).

Judaizing teachers had gone among the Galatians, claiming that the Jewish law was binding upon Christians, admitting that Jesus was the Messiah, but claiming that salvation must, nevertheless, be obtained by the works of the law. They especially urged that all Gentiles be circumcised.  Paul's quoting of the OT concerning Abraham is in direct opposition to the Judaizers since Abraham was before the Law was given to Moses and even before God selected out the Hebrew people as a special people and signified their identity by circumcision.   

[4WD]

No man would believe on Christ without life first (John 3:3; 5:24,40; 6:44,65; 8:43,47; 10:26; Ist Cor 1:18,24; 2:14; 2nd Cor 2:14-17; 4:1-4; 2nd Thess 2:9-14; Eph 2:1; Ist John 5:1)! Scriptures we have looked at several times over.

Yes we have looked at these several times over.  And not one of them says the one must be born again before one can believe.  It is only in your bastardization of God's word, by changing what is written or by inserting words into what God says, that one could think that God said it wrong with Abraham. 

(KJV)  Gen 15:6  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 

The "it" here is Abraham believed in God.  And God counted "it" to him for righteousness.  He didn't count it to him for evidence.  God counted Abraham's belief, his faith, in Him for righteousness.  Abraham was counted as righteous, i.e., justified; and that because Abraham believed in God.

[grams]

  Still, so many do not know  that JESUS  went to the cross for our sins!
  of course  we are still trying to not sin...... But we are human and at time
we cant help our self.....
That's why GOD  helped  us....... with HIS BELOVED SON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eph.2:


       
8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Jaime]

I don't see anyone disputing that passage Grams. Of course all of us realize Jesus took care of our sin problem on the cross.

What are you seeing that you feel counters that passage?