WILL GOD WILL BURN UP THE EARTH AND HEAVEN?

[JWSISTHETRUTH]

KJV

2 PET 3  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


WHAT WAS DESTROYED IN THE FLOOD? THE EARTH AND HEAVEN?    NO ,JUST THE WICKED PEOPLE , BUT IT SAID :

that by the word of God the
[heavens} were of old, {OLD HEAVENS} WERE DESTROYED
But the heavens which are now reserved unto fire
                                     

THIS IS ANOTHER FALSE TEACHING OF CHRISTENDOM

QUESTION, WHAT OLD HEAVENS WERE DESTROYED IN THE FLOOD? AND WHAT OLD EARTH ALSO? REMEMBER IT SAID:

    {But the heavens and the earth, which are now}

WHICH MEANS THE heavens and the earth WHICH WERE THEN

                          WERE DESTROYED

 CHRISTENDOMS ANSWER IS GOD DESTROYED THE EARTH BY WATER THE \"THEN\" PART AND THE \"NOW PART IT WILL BE DESTROYED BY FIRE THE EARTH AND HEAVENS

AGAIN THE QUESTION IS WHAT WAS DESTROYED IN THE FLOOD OF NOAHs DAY? WHAT HEAVENS WERE DESTROYED?

that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth

                     OLD HEAVENS OLD EARTH
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

             But the heavens and the earth, which are now

                           TO BE DESTROYED


The Flood of Noah's day did not destroy the literal heavens and earth, but only the ungodly persons, so also the revelation of Jesus Christ with his powerful angels in a flaming fire will result in permanent destruction only for the ungodly and the wicked system of things of which they are a part.
In the Bible, \"earth\" does not always refer to our globe. For instance, Psalm 96:1 says literally: 'Sing to Jehovah, all the earth.' We know that our planet-the terra firma and the vast oceans-cannot sing. People sing. , Psalm 96:1 is referring to the people on the earth.  

AFTER THE FLOOD NOAH WALKED ON A NEW EARTH

2Pe 3 verse 7, Peter mentions that \"the heavens and the earth that are now,\" both the rulerships and the masses of people, are reserved for \"the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.\" This confirms that the phrase \"the heavens and the earth that are now\" refers, not to the material universe, but to humans and their rulerships.

SO THE EARTH MEANS THE WICKED PEOPLE WILL PASS AWAY
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE \"HEAVENS\" WHICH ARE NOW

the \"earth\" can refer to a society of people
so, too, \"heavens\" can symbolize the superior ruling power or government over such \"earth.\" OR PEOPLE

In the Christian Greek Scriptures, earthly governments and their peoples are shown to be subject to Satanic rule. (Mt 4:8, 9; Joh 12:31; 2Co 4:3, 4; Re 12:9; 16:13, 14) The apostle Paul referred to \"the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,\" with their governments, authorities, and world rulers. (Eph 6:12) So the passing away of \"the former heaven\" indicates the end of political governments along with Satan and his demons. This identification of \"the former heaven\" harmonizes with the fact that shortly before the statement concerning the 'former heaven having passed away,' John had seen a vision of the complete defeat of Satan's forces and the casting of Satan into \"the abyss.\" (Re 19:19-20:3) The earthly subjects of Satan's rule are destroyed prior to his abyssing, as shown at Revelation 19:17, 18.

THESE wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,\"

ITS INTERESTING THAT KJV SAYS :

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

USES \"HIGH PLACES\"  INSTEAD OF \"HEAVENLY PLACES\"
ARE WHAT WILL BE DESTROYED THESE ARE THE

                   
(English Standard Version  Ephesians 6

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.


Contemporary English Version
We are not fighting against humans. We are fighting against forces and authorities and against rulers of darkness and powers in the spiritual world


New King James Version
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[c] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

American Standard Version
against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places

Young's Literal Translation
with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;


Darby Translation
against spiritual [power] of wickedness in the heavenlies.

Wycliffe New Testament
against spiritual things of wickedness, in heavenly things.

New Living Translation
against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms.

Amplified Bible
against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.


WITH THESE \"HEAVENS REMOVED THIS WILL BE A \"NEW HEAVENS\"

Revelation 20

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

, the \"new heavens and a new earth\" must relate to God's Messianic Kingdom and its rule over obedient subjects. By his resurrection and ascension to God's right hand, Christ Jesus became \"higher than the heavens\" (Heb 7:26) in that he was thereby placed \"far above every government and authority and power and lordship . . . not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.\"-Eph 1:19-21; Mt 28:18.

, M'Clintock and Strong's Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: \"In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.\"


At Luke 21:33, Jesus says that \"heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.\" The sense of this expression seems to be like that of Matthew 5:18: \"Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away [or, \"it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away\"; Lu 16:17] than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place.\"

Psalm 148

verse 6 states that God \"keeps them standing forever, to time indefinite. A regulation he has given, and it will not pass away.\"

Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.

  Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

  Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

  Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

  Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

  He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.


the heavens can refer to Jehovah God in his sovereign position. Thus, when Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that the experience the Babylonian emperor was due to have would make him \"know that the heavens are ruling,\" it meant the same as knowing \"that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind.\"-Da 4:25, 26.
The connection of the \"heavens\" with ruling power aids in understanding the meaning of the expression \"new heavens and a new earth

The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M'Clintock and Strong, states: \"Wherever the scene of a prophetic vision is laid, heaven signifies . . . the whole assembly of the ruling powers . . . being over and ruling the subjects, as the natural heaven stands over and rules the earth.\" As to the combination phrase \"heaven and earth,\" the Cyclopædia explains that 'in prophetic language the phrase signifies the political condition of persons of different ranks. The heaven is the sovereignty; the earth is the peasantry, men who are ruled by superiors.'

Peter wrote that \"the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire.\" From the context and in the light of other scriptures, it is evident that this is not a literal fire but signifies everlasting destruction. As the Flood of Noah's day did not destroy the literal heavens and earth, but only the ungodly persons

Does 2 Peter 3:7, 10 (KJ) support that view? \"The heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition [\"destruction,\" RS] of ungodly men. . . . The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up [\"burned (burnt) up,\" RS, JB; \"will vanish,\" TEV; \"will be made manifest,\" NAB; \"will be laid bare,\" NE; \"will be discovered,\" NW].\" (Note: The Codex Sinaiticus and Vatican MS 1209, both of the 4th century C.E., read \"be discovered.\" Later manuscripts, the 5th-century Codex Alexandrinus and the 16th-century Clementine recension of the Vulgate, read \"be burned up.\")

To be correct, the explanation of these verses must agree with the context and with the rest of the Bible

If these texts (2 Peter 3:7, 10 and Revelation 21:1) mean that the literal planet Earth is to be consumed by fire, then the literal heavens (the stars and other heavenly bodies) are also to be destroyed by fire. Such a literal view, however, conflicts with the assurance contained in such texts as Matthew 6:10, Psalm 37:29 and 104:5, also Proverbs 2:21, 22. Furthermore, what effect would fire have on the already intensely hot sun and stars? So the term \"earth\" in the above-quoted texts must be understood in a different sense.

At Genesis 11:1, First Kings 2:1, 2, First Chronicles 16:31, Psalm 96:1, etc., the term \"earth\" is used in a figurative sense, referring to mankind, to human society. Might that be the case at 2 Peter 3:7, 10 and Revelation 21:1?

Note that, in the context, at 2 Peter 3:5, 6 (also 2:5, 9), a parallel is drawn with the Flood of Noah's day, in which wicked human society was destroyed, but Noah and his household, as well as the globe itself, were preserved. Likewise, at 2 Peter 3:7 it says that the ones to be destroyed are \"ungodly men.\" The view that \"the earth\" here refers to wicked human society fully agrees with the rest of the Bible, as is illustrated by the texts cited above. It is that symbolic \"earth,\" or wicked human society, that is \"discovered\"; that is, Jehovah will sear away as by fire all disguise, exposing the wickedness of ungodly human society and showing it to be worthy of complete destruction. That wicked society of humans is also \"the first earth,\" referred to at Revelation 21:1 (KJ).

         JEHOVAHS WITNESSES ARE THE TRUTH

[memmy]

Will you kindly state your point?

If it's that you believe JW\"s are the truth, and you are one, you are wrong.

Jesus Christ is the Truth, my friend, and until you realize that you have no earth to stand your legs up on anyways. He is the rock and the foundation of the church as we know it.

He is the living God that walked on this earth, seeking and saving the lost, still is, if you let Him.

You best be aware of false teachers where you dwell sir. They have been predicting far too many things that have not come true, which qualifies them for false teachers being warned about in the Bible.

Also you need to look outside your box you live in, you are not \"allowed\" as a witness to read or discuss any other material other than what is authorized by their authority, ever wonder why?

Be cautious JW one, and join in the other threads here to discuss real things that are happening and not some flaky predictions of the end of the world as we know it. Only God knows when, your \"authority\" has predicted too many false statements, when will you all learn?

Blessings,

Memmy :)

[JWSISTHETRUTH]

You best be aware of false teachers where you dwell sir. They have been predicting far too many things that have not come true, which qualifies them for false teachers being warned about in the Bible


WHAT PREDICTION HAS THE WATCHTOWER MADE,
PROVIDE DATES,AND PAGE NUMBERS

[david johnson]

it'll all burn, jw!  a fearsome, dooming, searing destruction of all things physical....and after that an eternal, firey torment for those the Master counts as standing against Him, but bliss for the saved.
may He have mercy on our weak souls!

i hope you repent soon.

dj

[memmy]

JW,

Are you saying that the WATCHTOWER is your authority? That is very sad.

Jesus Christ is mine.

Please get to know Him better, on your own. Pray and ask that the Holy Spirit show you the Truth.

It will set you free.

Memmy  :D

[johntwayne]

The Bible indeed teaches there will be a new heavens and a new earth, but like our new bodies it will not be based on the temporal laws this universe is based on--it will be eternal.  Hence, it will be a more radical change than the change that took place in the physical realm after the flood.

Witness teaching is seriously flawed and physical in focus.

[l.a.providence]

Some physicists believe in a 'cosmic crunch'..that our universe which is expanding will one day collapse due to they gravitational pull of all the bodies... our world would be burned up in the process.

i wonder if that is how it will all end


i've read the watchtower...and enjoyed it...

i can agree to be a fellow believer with you as long as you believe in Christ's dbr..

i would refrain from exclaiming that 'i have the truth'
that may be so, but most of us are COC.. and our movement failied because people were proclaiming that.

of course if you do have the only truth then time will tell,' fire will test the quality of each man's work, if what he built survives then fine, if otherwise then it could be burned up' with only you escaping through the flames... *paraphrased big time,,, it says something like that..

anyway here's one, \"if it is from God, then you will not be able to stop it'.


http://www.calltodiscipleship.blogspot.com
http://www.abadrap.blogspot.com
http://www.myspace.com/stanpeck

[Lee Freeman]

You best be aware of false teachers where you dwell sir. They have been predicting far too many things that have not come true, which qualifies them for false teachers being warned about in the Bible


WHAT PREDICTION HAS THE WATCHTOWER MADE,
PROVIDE DATES,AND PAGE NUMBERS

How about the prophecies below?

But first, what does scripture say regarding false prophets?

But the prophet that shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak. . . that same prophet shall die. And if thou say in thy heart, \"How shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken?\" When a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:20-22)

And now, actual quotations from official Watchtower publications. I've given you the references so you can check them for yourself. I pray that you'll consider them prayerfully and objectively:


There is a real need today for someone to speak as a representative of God. . . .

WHAT IS REQUIRED OF GOD'S MESSENGERS?

Who was willing to undertake this monumental role as Jehovah's \"servant\"? Was there anyone to whom Jehovah's heavenly \"chariot could roll up and whom it could confront? More accurately, was there any group on whom Jehovah would be willing to bestow the commission to speak as a \"prophet\" in His name, as was done toward Ezekiel back there in 613 B.C.E. ? . . .

In identifying the group that is truly commissioned as God's messenger, these are points to consider seriously. God does not deal with persons who ignore his Word and go according to their own ideas. . . .

It is of importance to every individual on earth to identify the group that Jehovah has commissioned as his \"servant\" messenger. We must recognize and understand the warning that he brings. We need to take action on the warning to safe-guard our lives, for they are in a danger as grave as that of the lives of Jerusalem's citizens as that city neared destruction. For this reason forthcoming issues of
The Watchtower will further discuss the identity and work of Jehovah's commissioned messenger as revealed in His vision by Ezekiel. (The Watchtower, March 15, 1972, pp. 186-190)

A third way of coming to know Jehovah is through his representatives. In ancient times he sent prophets as his special messengers. While these men foretold things to come, they also served the people by telling them of God's will for them at that time, often also warning them of dangers and calamities. . . .

So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? . . .

He had a \"prophet\" to warn them. This \"prophet\" was not one man, but a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listended to their message with belief.

Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a \"prophet\" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show? . . . .

The scroll was doubtless delivered to Ezekiel by the hand of one of the cherubs in the vision. This would indicate that Jehovah's Witnesses today make their declaration of the good news of the Kingdom under angelic direction and support (Rev. 14:6, 7: Matt. 25:31, 32). And since no word or work of Jehovah can fail, for he is God Almighty, the nations will see the fulfillment of what these witnesses say as directed from heaven.

Yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a \"prophet\"of Jehovah was among them. (The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, pp. 197-200 Emphasis added)

Too many and too rapid now are those unfoldings of  Bible prophecy and truths, so much so that books cannot be written and published fast enough by the Watch Tower Society to present them all. . . .

THIS MAGAZINE stands only for Jehovah God and his Government by Christ Jesus. Its pages gleam with Scriptural and prophetic truths now due to be published for the education, comfort and guidance of all who now desire to take their stand (and hold it) on the side of God and his Son, Earth's Rightful Ruler. (Riches, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, N. Y., 1936, Emphasis added).

The outlook at the opening of the New Year has some very encouraging features. The outward evidences are that the marshalling of the hosts for the battle of the Great day of God Almighty is in progress, while the skirmishing is commencing.

. . . because the time is come for Messiah to take the dominion of earth and to overthrow the oppressors and corrupters of the earth, (Rev. 19:15 and 11:17, 18.) preparatory to the establishment of everlasting peace upon the only firm foundation of righteousness and truth. . . .

We see and feel this daily also, another evidence that the time for the glorifying of the Church the body of Christ is nigh at hand, after which they will shortly be manifested for the joy and blessing of the groaning creation. Rom. 8:19-23.


What of this you ask? A fulfilling of prophecy we reply. In the battle already beginning we are told that there will be a general division of the world into two contending parties. The kings, chief men, and mighty or influential men, the wealthy and the wordly great are one side [of] the battle, and with them the symbolic beast (Papacy) and Protestantism. . . . On the other side is now the present Lord, who having taken his great power, begins the work of blessing the world by smiting down the oppressors-oppressive errors, and those influenced by the spirit of those errors. . . .

Communists, Infidels, Socialists, Anarchists, Nihilists; all these fight in the battle of the great day though ignorant of him whose kingdom they help to establish. These are the vultures of Rev. 19:17, 18, 21, who battle for plunder and get their fill in the overturning. . . [The issue of Jan. 15, 1892, said the \"battle\" began in 1874, and in 1897 said it had begun in 1878. Which is it?] (Zion's Watchtower, Pittsburgh, Pa., Jan., 1886, Vol. VII, No. 5, P. 817.)

The date of the close of that \"battle\" is definitely marked in Scripture as October, 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874. . . .

The Scriptures also show that the battle of the great day will begin with the church of God, and that the overthrow of the great nominal church systems will precede the overthrow of the present civil powers; for the Lord is about to shake not only the earth (the civil organization of society), but heaven (the ecclesiastical powers) also (Heb. 12:26), to the end that great \"Babylon,\" falsely called Christendom-Christ's kingdom-may be completely destroyed. (Zion's Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1892, pp. 21-23)


Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we  present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A. D. 1878, and that the \"battle of the great day of God almighty\" (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A. D. 1915, with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word. [I thought the Zion's Watchtower of Jan., 1886, said the time was \"nigh at hand\"? But in Jan. 15, 1892 it prophesided the beginning of this \"battle\" as October 1874 and the end as October 1914? Which is it?]

If our vision be unobstructed by predjudice, when we get the telescope of God's Word rightly adjusted we may see with clearness the character of many of the events due to take place iin the \"Day of the Lord\"-that we are in the very midst of those events, and that \"the Great Day of His Wrath is come.\" . . .

The internal conflict is already fomenting: it will ere long break forth as a consuming fire, and human systems, and errors, which for centuries have fettered truth and oppressed the groaning creation, must melt before it. (The Time is at Hand, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Allegheny, Pa., 1897, pp. 620-621)

But now we are in the end of this Gospel age, and the Kingdom is being established or set up. Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874, A. D., according to the testimony of the prophets, to those who have ears to hear it: and the inauguration of his kingly office dates from April 1878, A. D.: and the first work of the Kingdom, as shown by our Lord, in his parables and prophecy (the gathering of \"his elect\"), is now in progress. [Does it begin in 1874 or 1878?] (The Day of Veneance, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Allegheny, Pa., 1897, pp.620-621)

According to our expectations the stress of the great time of trouble will be on us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912-culminating with the end of the \"Times of the Gentiles,\" October, 1914. [Was it 1874, 1878, 1886, 1910 or 1912?] (The New Creation, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, N. Y., 1904, PP. 578-579)

In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i. e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A. D. 1914; and that that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures it will prove:-

Firstly, That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying 'Thy Kingdom Come,\" will obtain full, universal control, and that it will then be \"set up,\" or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of the present institutions.

Secondly, It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the dominion will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date; because the overthrow of these Gentile governments is directly caused by his dashing them to pieces as a potter's vessel (Psa. 2:9; Rev. 2:27), and establishing in their stead his own righteous government.

Thirdly, It will prove that some time before the end of A. D. 1914 the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the \"royal priesthood,\" \"the body of Christ,\" will be glorified with the Head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully \"set up\" without every member.

Fourthly, It will prove that from that time forward Jerusalem shall no longer be trodden down of the Gentiles, but shall arise from the dust of divine disfavor, to honor; because the \"Time of the Gentiles\" will be fulfilled or completed.

Fifthly, It will prove that by that date, or sooner, Israel's blindness will begin to be turned away; because their \"blindness in part\" was to continue only \"until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in' (Rom. 11:25), or, in other words, until the full number from among the Gentiles, who are members of the body or bride of Christ, would be fully selected. (The Time is at Hand, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, N. Y., 1912, pp. 76-78.

ARMAGEDDON STILL FUTURE

While it is possible that Armageddon may begin next Spring, yet it is purely speculation to say just when. We see, however, that there are parallels between the close of the Jewish age and this Gospel age. These parallels seem to point to the year just before us-particularly the early months. [The Watchtower didn't have any problems before this time predicting the exact date of both the beginning and end of the Battle of Armageddon, giving the beginning variously as 1874, 1878, 1886, 1910, or 1912; and the end as 1914 or 1915. Now they're saying they're not sure! That to even predict a date is pure speculation!] (The Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1914, pp.261-263.)

For 2,500 years God, through the Bible Prophets, has been telling his people about the great war and concerning the more terrible Armageddon which will follow it. . .

The war will proceed and will eventuate in no glorious victory for any nation, but in the horrible mutilation and impoverishment of all. Next will follow the Armageddon or anarchy. . . . [So they prophesided that there would be no winner of WWI, but the \"horrible mutilation and impoverishment of all,\" huh? And now they're asserting the date for Armageddon with certainty again. Interesting.]

Certain Scriptures indicate that the period during which God's Kingdom would be removed would be seven prophetic Times, each 300 years long. Seven Times would therefore equal 2, 520 years reckoned from the time of King Zedekiah; that period ends this year. . . If so, with the close of the present year Messiah should take to himself His great power and begin the glorious reign of a thousand years, the beginning of which, according to the Bible, will be a very dark hour. . . (\"Distress of Nations with Perplexity: Pastor Russelll Says He Cannot Pray the Almighty to Change His Program,\" New York Times, Mon., Oct. 5, 1914, p. 8)

Incidentally we remark that some historians put the end of the Jewish Time of Trouble as April A. D. 73, which would correspond to April 1918. (The Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1916, pp. 265-266)

Until 1878 the nominal church had been in a sense God's sanctuary or Temple; but he was from then on, culminating in 1918, to remove it with a stroke or plague or erroneous doctrines and deeds Divinely permitted. . . . [I thought the date for the culmination of things was 1914? No-1912! No, wait! 1915! And I thought it all began in 1874! At any rate they said it was all supposed to be over before 1917!]

Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity. [So now its 1918 and God will totally destroy all the churches of apostate Christendom and the survivors will all read Charles Taze Russell's books?] (The Finished Mystery, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, N. Y., 1917, PP. 484-485)

That period of time beginning 1575 before A. D. 1 of necessity would end in the fall of the year 1925, at which time the type ends and the great antitype must begin. What then, should we expect to take place? . . .

The chief thing to be restored is the human race to life; and since the Scriptures definitely fix the the fact that there will be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful ones of old, and that these will have the first favor, we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected and fully restored to perfect humanity and made the visible, legal representatives of the new order of things on earth.

EARTHLY RULERS

As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilleee cycle is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly phase of the kingdom shall be recognized. The Apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord and before the beginning of the selection of the church. These can never be a part of the heavenly class; they had no heavenly hopes; but God has in store something good for them. They are to be resurrected as perfect men and constitute the princes or rulers in the earth, according to his promise. (Psalm 45:16; Isaiah 32:1; Matthew 8:11) Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of human perfection. [Alfozo, this one is really too much!!! Not only was Jesus cruficied rather than \"impaled\" as JW's now teach, but Abraham, Isaac,  Jacob and the other \"heroes of faith\" from Hebrews 11 (which they also erroneously say was written by Paul) were slated to be resurrected!!! I mean, c'mon!!!] (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, N. Y., 1920, pp. 89-91) [This whole book seems like it was a waste of money to print as  \"millions still living\" did die-natural deaths.)

The physical facts show beyond question of a doubt that 1914 ended the Gentile times; and as the Lord foretold, the old order is being destroyed by war, famine, pestilence, and revolution.  The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures because it is fixed by the law God gave to Israel. Viewing the present situation in Europe, one wonders how it will be possible to hold back the explosion much longer; and that even before 1925 the great crisis will be reached and probably passed.[/i]  [So now it's 1925 rather than 1914 or 1918 for the end of the \"Time of the Gentiles?\"] (The Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922)

QUESTION AND ANSWER

Question: Did the order go forth eight months ago to the Pilgrims to cease talking about 1925? Have we more reason, or as much, to believe the kingdom will be established in 1925 than Noah had to believe that there would be a flood?

Answer: It is surprising how reports get abroad. There was never at any time intimation to the Pilgrims that they should cease talking about 1925. . . .

Our thought is that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures, marking the end of the typical jubilee. Just exactly what will happen at that time no one can tell to a certainty; but we expect such a climax in the affairs of the world that the people will begin to realize the presence of the Lord and his kingdom power. . . .

As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge.[/b] [No one knows just exactly what will happen but Christians have more reason to expect the end of the world in 1925 than Noah did the deluge! Amazing!] (The Watchtower, May 2, 1922, p. 100)

The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. THIS MAY BE ACCOMPLISHED. IT MAY NOT BE. In his own time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his own people. CHRISTIANS SHOULD NOT BE SO DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT MAY TRANSPIRE DURING THIS YEAR THAT THEY WOULD FAIL TO JOYFULLY DO what the Lord would have them to do. [1925-the year \"definitely settled by the Scriptures\" may unfold as the Watchtower prophesied-and it may not. And ayway, Christians shouldn't worry about stuff like that. Incredible!] (The Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, Vol. XLVI, No. 1, p. 3)

The scriptural proof is that the period of his presence and the day of God's preparation is a period from 1874 A. D. forward. The second coming of the Lord, therefore, began in 1874; and that date and the years 1914 to 1918 are specially marked dates with reference to his coming. . . . [It's like de ja vu all over again!]

The time must come when Satan's world must end, and when he is ousted from heaven; and the Scriptural proof is that the beginning of such ousting took place in 1914. . . .

Applying the same rule then, of a day for a year, brings us to 1874 A. D., at which time, according to Biblical chronology, the Lord's second presence was due. . . .

There are two important dates here that we must not confuse, but clearly differentiate; namely, the beginning of \"the time of the end\" and the beginning of the presence of the Lord. \"The time of the end\" embraces a period from 1799 A. D. to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's emtire and the establishment of the kingdom of Messiah. The time of the Lord's second presence dates from 1874 and is during the latter part of the period known as \"the time of the end.\" . . . [1799 the beginning of the \"time of the end,\" and 1874 the time of the Lord's second presence.] (Creation, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, N. Y., pp. 289; 294-295; 298-299)

BETH-SARIM

At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean \"House of Princes\"; and the purpose of aquiring that property was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus in His kingdom; and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth.  The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society in trust,  to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants at present, and thereafter to be for ever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on earth.  To be sure, everything then on the earth will belong to the Lord, and neither the Lord nor the princes need others to build houses for them; but it was thought well-pleasing to God that the aforementioned house be built as a testimony to the name of Jehovah and showing faith in his announced purposes. The house has served as a testimony to many persons throughout the earth, and while the unbelievers have mocked concerning it and spoken contemptuously of it, yet it stands there as testmony to Jehovah's name; and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a  confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim. [ A house actually built in 1929 for the returning \"princes\" who pulled a no-show in 1925!!!!!] (Salvation, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, N. Y., 1929- pp. 311-312)


There was a measure of disappoinment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1914, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time. Later the faithful learned that these dates were definitely fixed in the Scriptures; and they learned to quit fixing dates for the future and predicting what would come to pass on a certain date, but to rely upon (and they do rely) upon the Word of God as to the events that must come to pass. So the self-styled \"prophet of Jehovah\" admitted it had been wrong and had made several false predictions. Based upon what the Bible says regarding false prophets, why would anyone trust the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to speak on behalf of God?] (Vindication, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, N. Y., 1931, pp. 338-339)

Well, apparently they didn't stop \"fixing dates\" for long:

According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seveth period of a thousand years of human history will begin in rthe fall of 1975. . . .

It would not be by mere chance or accident, but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ the \"Lord of the Sabbarh\" to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man's existence. (Life Everlasting-In Freedom of the Sons of God, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, N. Y., 1966, PP. 29-30)

So there you have it Alfonzo. For the whole of the Watchtower's history it has made failed prophecies. In fact, the Watchtower's whole history is one great-big failed prophecy after another, with the leaders back-peddling and revising their calculations. In 1931 they actually even admitted the fallacy of attempting to make such predictions but then went right back to making them-all the while still claiming to be God's prophet, blatantly ignoring Moses' instructions regarding false prophets in Deuteronomy!


I hope you will prayerfully consider what this means and recognize that the Watchtower has decieved you and millions of others since it was founded by Charles T. Russell in the 1870s.

Pax vobiscum.[/color]

[memmy]

Well, gee whiz, I knew this info had to be out there floating around somewhere in cyberspace.

Thanks Lee for reeling it in!  :D

Memmy

[Lee Freeman]

Well, gee whiz, I knew this info had to be out there floating around somewhere in cyberspace.

Thanks Lee for reeling it in!  :D

Memmy

I actually have a book by Robert A. Morey on the Watchtower's failed prophecies which is great because it contains reproductions of actual articles from their publications, beginning in 1886 and going through 1975.

Pax.

[memmy]

Wow Lee, and to think how many more they have had since then!

I started talking to a lady when my kids were small (about 20 years ago or more) that was a JW. The prediction at that time was some spring date, I think, of the next year after that, looks like they missed that one too.

Thanks Lee for sharing.

Memmy :D

[ollie]

You best be aware of false teachers where you dwell sir. They have been predicting far too many things that have not come true, which qualifies them for false teachers being warned about in the Bible


WHAT PREDICTION HAS THE WATCHTOWER MADE,
PROVIDE DATES,AND PAGE NUMBERS

In the group's early period, during the late 1800s, Jehovah's Witnesses (then called Bible Students) believed that the return of Jesus Christ would be a visible, dramatic and world shattering event, a position also commonly held among many other Christian groups. They believed that the \"time of the end\" (also called the \"last days\") had started in 1799, and that the culmination of Armageddon would occur in 1914, and for nearly fifty years believed and taught that the date for Christ's enthronement as heavenly King had occurred in 1874. Many years later in 1930, the Witnesses' organization moved the dates forward, and believed the beginning of the biblical \"last days\" and the enthronement of Jesus Christ as King, had now occurred in 1914, not 1799 and 1874, and that his return in 1914 was invisible to all but those with \"eyes of understanding.\" The Bible passage urging believers to watch for Jesus' return, which would come \"in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven\" (Acts 1:11, KJV) is understood by Jehovah's Witnesses to be visible only with the \"eyes of understanding.\"

Other dates proclaimed to be time of God's judgement on humankind and the culmination of Armageddon, were 1915, 1918, 1920 and 1925. The return of Old Testament men including Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was an event anticipated by many Jehovah's Witnesses in the year 1925 based on writings in their Journal, The Watchtower, the book Millions Now Living Will Never Die, and various other Watch Tower Society publications. When these events did not occur, there was a period of discouragement and some left the organization at that time, but the majority saw it only as a temporary disappointment. In 1929 the second president of the Watch Tower Society, Joseph F. Rutherford, also called \"Judge Rutherford\", built a luxury villa in California called Beth Sarim for the claimed purpose of housing the prophets and godly men of old, who were expected to be physically resurrected after Armageddon to help with Christ's Millennial reign over the earth, even though they had failed to materialize as predicted in 1925. A local paper published a humorous interview with Rutherford about the villa in March 1930. Rutherford used the villa himself for many years until his death in 1942, and in 1948 the luxury villa was sold.

During the 1960s and early 1970s, many Witnesses, stimulated by suggestive articles in their literature and further encouraged by overzealous speakers at their assemblies prior to 1975, believed and hoped that Armageddon and Christ's thousand-year millennial reign would begin by 1975. While Witnesses were reminded by the Watch Tower Society in the Watchtower magazine of 15 August 1968, p. 501 that they had \"not dedicated their lives to serve Jehovah only until 1975,\" many concluded to serve God with a date in mind. Although the view of Armageddon and Christ's millennium beginning in 1975 was never fully, or explicitly supported by the Watch Tower Society, many in the organisations' writing department, as well as several leading Witnesses, Elders, and presiding overseers in the organisation, heavily suggested that Christ's millennial reign over earth would begin by 1975. Because of considerable speculation created by members of Watchtower Society and Witnesses in general, in 1974 just prior to the failure of the 1975 date suggested as the beginning of Christ reign on earth and Armageddon, the Watchtower magazine 15 October 1974 p. 635 quoted a prepared assembly talk, \"Why we have not been told the Day or Hour\" of when God will bring the end (Armageddon). This attempt to draw the Witnesses away from the \"day or hour\" had little impact on members already convinced.***

***http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovahs_Witnesses

A few mistaken dates made by people that today are known as Jehovah's witnesses.[/color]

[James Rondon]

         JEHOVAHS WITNESSES ARE THE TRUTH

\"Jesus saith... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.\" (John 14:6, KJV).

[JWSISTHETRUTH]

I dont think you guys understand just was a \"prophet\" is

One through whom divine will and purpose are made known. (Lu 1:70; Ac 3:18-21) The Greek pro·phe´tes literally means \"a speaker out [Gr., pro, \"before\" or \"in front of,\" and phe·mi´, \"say\"]\" and thus describes a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source,
Though this includes the thought of a predictor of the future, the fundamental meaning of the word is not that of prediction. (Compare Jg 6:7-10.) Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus, God's prophets performed miraculous works that attested to the genuineness of their message and office. Not all, however, are recorded as performing such powerful works. The three essentials for establishing the credentials of a true prophet, as given through Moses, were: The true prophet would speak in Jehovah's name; the things foretold would come to pass (De 18:20-22); and his prophesying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God's revealed word and commandments (De 13:1-4). The last requirement was probably the most vital and decisive, for an individual might hypocritically use God's name, and by coincidence, his prediction might see fulfillment. But the true prophet was not solely or even primarily a prognosticator,

. Rather, he was an advocate of righteousness, and his message dealt primarily with moral standards and their application. He expressed God's mind on matters. (Isa 1:10-20; Mic 6:1-12) Hence, it was not necessary to wait perhaps for years or generations to determine whether the prophet was true or false by fulfillment of a prediction. If his message contradicted God's revealed will and standards, he was false. Thus, a prophet who foretold peace for Israel or Judah, at a time when the people were engaging in disobedience to God's Word and Law, of necessity was false.-Jer 6:13, 14; 14:11-16.

When we say :

ARROWS OF FAMINE AND PESTILENCE TO HIT CHRISTENDOM

its in the context of  a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source,
not a predictor of the future,

CHRISTENDOM of which you guys are a part of will be destroyed as surely as was Jerusalem back in 607 B.C.E. Any associates of Christendom who survive her destruction in the \"great tribulation\" will not come through to any improved, long-lived future, any more than did those hypocritical survivors of ancient Jerusalem's destruction. They face only further hardship and eventual destruction in the further and concluding part of the \"great tribulation.\" Jehovah's symbolic \"sword\" of judicial execution will be brandished against them in the \"war of the great day of God the Almighty\" at the world situation called Har-Magedon. (Revelation 16:14-16; 19:11-21) In this way he will bring his righteous rage against religious hypocrisy and ungodliness to a finish upon them.

Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics?\"-MATTHEW 24:45.
Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.\" (Matthew 24:45-47)

, there would be a \"slave\" who had been assigned to provide spiritual food, a \"slave\" who would be both faithful and discreet. Was that slave a particular individual, a succession of individuals or Christendom

\"The faithful and discreet slave\" cannot be one person. Why not? Because the slave began serving spiritual food back in the first century, and according to Jesus, the slave would still be doing so when the Master arrived

might the term \"faithful and discreet slave\" apply in a general sense to each individual Christian? It is true that all Christians must be faithful and discreet; however, Jesus clearly had something more in mind when he spoke of \"the faithful and discreet slave.\" How do we know that? Because he said that the \"master on arriving\" would appoint the slave \"over all his belongings.\"

Jehovah referred to the entire nation of Israel as \"my witnesses\" and \"my servant whom I have chosen.\" (Isaiah 43:10) Every member of the nation of Israel from 1513 B.C.E., when the Mosaic Law was given, down to Pentecost 33 C.E. was part of this servant class. Most Israelites did not have a direct share in administering the nation's affairs or in coordinating its spiritual feeding program. Jehovah used the kings, judges, prophets, priests, and Levites to carry out those tasks. Still, as a nation, Israel was to represent Jehovah's sovereignty and tell his praises among the nations. Each Israelite was to be a witness of Jehovah.-Deuteronomy 26:19; Isaiah 43:21; Malachi 2:7; Romans 3:1, 2.



When Jesus' presence ,NOT COMING ,began in 1914, did he find a group of anointed Christians who were faithfully dispensing food at the proper time? He certainly did. This group could be clearly identified because of the fine fruitage that it was producing. (Matthew 7:20) History since then has proved this identification to be correct



At the time of Jesus' arrival, some 5,000 domestics were busy spreading Bible truth. The workers were few, but the slave used a number of ingenious methods to spread the good news. (Matthew 9:38) For example, arrangements were made for sermons on Bible topics to be published in up to 2,000 newspapers. In this way, the truth of God's Word reached tens of thousands of readers at once. In addition, an eight-hour program combining color slides and motion pictures was prepared. Thanks to this innovative presentation, the Bible's message, from the beginning of Creation to the end of the Thousand Year Reign of Christ, was conveyed to audiences totaling over nine million on three continents. Printed literature was another avenue that was used. In 1914, for example, some 50,000 copies of this journal were published.the Master arrived, he found his faithful slave conscientiously feeding the domestics as well as preaching the good news. Greater responsibilities now awaited that slave. Jesus said: \"Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.\" (Matthew 24:47) Jesus did this in 1919, after the slave had passed through a period of testing. Why, though, did \"the faithful and discreet slave\" receive greater responsibilities? Because the Master had received an increase in his belongings. Jesus was given the kingship in 1914.What are the belongings over which the newly crowned Master appointed his faithful slave? All the spiritual things that belong to Him here on earth. For example, two decades after Christ's enthronement in 1914, \"a great crowd\" of \"other sheep\" was identified. (Revelation 7:9; John 10:16), when we view the \"faithful and discreet slave\" as being the whole body of disciples (including spiritual overseers), it eliminates such a thing as \"episcopal succession\" that history shows has worked such harm and oppression in Christendom,At the Festival of Pentecost of the year 33 C.E., fifty days from the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, the circumcised nation of natural Israel was cast off by Jehovah God. But about the years 50-52 the Christian apostle Paul wrote to his Christian brothers in the Roman province of Galatia and said: \"Neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.\" (Galatians 6:15, 16) The true Christian congregation was the organization that walked orderly by that rule regarding a \"new creation,\" and now, since natural Israel's being rejected, the congregation of Christ's followers was \"the Israel of God.\" It was a spiritual Israel. As a united congregation it was the \"servant\" of Jehovah God and his Christ. To it in a spiritual way Isaiah 43:10 could be directed: \"'You are my witnesses,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'even my servant.'\"Although raising the question about the \"faithful and discreet slave,\" Jesus was in no doubt about who this \"slave\" was. Jesus doubtless had in mind that \"servant\" of Jehovah God, that \"Israel of God.\" There would be no mistake in fixing upon that composite \"servant.\" With the price of his own blood he had bought that Israel of God as his slave, and in the illustration given in his prophecy he could refer to it as a composite \"slave,\" one that would prove \"faithful and discreet.\" Since Jesus spoke of this \"slave\" in his prophecy concerning the \"sign of [his] presence and of the conclusion of the system of things,\" did that composite \"faithful and discreet slave\" first come into existence during his \"presence\" or parousia from 1914 onward?No; for Jesus' illustration portrays the lord of the \"slave\" as going away, as a \"man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the authority to his slaves.\" (Mark 13:34) So the \"faithful and discreet slave\" is one \"whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time.\" (Matthew 24:45) It was more than nineteen hundred years ago, at his ascension to heaven, that the \"master\" of the composite \"slave\" went away, leaving the \"slave\" with instructions to feed the \"domestics.\" (Matthew 28:16-20) The \"domestics\" were not the family of the master but were his \"domestic servants\" (H. A. W. Meyer) or his \"household staff.\" (New English Bible) They were slaves, just the same as the \"faithful and discreet slave\" charged with feeding them. Thus they were all a body of slaves, and were all subject to the same \"master.\" All were obligated to be \"faithful and discreet.\"Jesus' illustration began fulfillment at his departure in the year 33 C.E., and the composite \"slave\" has been existing since then, namely, \"the Israel of God,\" the spirit-begotten, anointed congregation of Christ the membership of which will finally reach 144,000. (Revelation 7:4-8; 14:1-3) The historical records show that at the beginning of the invisible parousia of the \"master\" at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 there was still a remnant of this \"slave\" class on earth. Consequently, the composite \"slave\" has lived to see the \"sign\" of the Master's parousia or \"presenceOn inspecting the remnant of his anointed disciples in the year 1919 C.E., the reigning King Jesus Christ did find the appointed \"slave\" faithful and discreet in the feeding of his \"domestics.\" Accordingly, he appointed this \"slave\" class over all his belongings. Their enlarged responsible position now was that of serving in fulfillment of the now due Kingdom prophecies.Jesus, before his departure nineteen centuries ago, took care not to appoint a bad, evil, worthless \"slave\" over his \"domestics.\" The record in the Christian Greek Scriptures proves that the appointed \"slave\" class did not turn out bad, and the prophecies thereof show that the \"slave\" class was not expected to turn out bad and would not do so. In his tried and proved apostles he laid the foundation for the building up of a body of faithful slaves. Revelation 7:3-8 foretells that a full 144,000 spiritual Israelites would be sealed as \"the slaves of our God.\" Revelation 12:17 foretells that, after the dragon Satan the Devil is ousted from heaven, he would war upon the remnant of the \"seed\" of God's \"woman,\" who \"observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.\" And Revelation 14:1-4 foretells that the entire number of 144,000 \"that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes\" stand with him upon the Mount Zion. They \"have been bought from the earth.\" \"These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.\"One might ask, Were any world watchmen awake to sound out the warning before 1914 of this pending time of global trouble? If there were, then such alert watchmen must now know more about these times since 1914 than any others on earth. Such watchmen should be sought out for guidance and counsel in these increasingly perilous times. They may be able to show inquiring persons where the course of safety lies.Would one have found such awake watchmen among the Catholic clergy? Not likely! History shows they were too busy before 1914 and since with their church rituals and engaging in world politics to have been alert to the signs of these times. Perhaps the many Protestant groups were tipped off and kept awake. No! Their clergy were too engrossed before 1914 with their higher criticism of the Bible and with what they call modernism. But how about the Jewish sages and rabbis? Again no! Before 1914 they were fully occupied with materialism and busy advocating Zionism for a re-established dream state in Palestine. How about the farsighted world politicians and financiers? Maybe they knew what was coming. Very definitely no! They were up to their necks in preparing for war and raking in its profits. All these proved to be sleepy \"watchmen\" in Christian name only. Isaiah describes them well: \"His watchmen are blind. None of them have taken note. All of them are speechless dogs; they are not able to bark, panting, lying down, loving to slumber.\"-Isa. 56:10.was the world left without advance warning by alert watchmen? Not at all! There still is one more group to check on, that of the Watch Tower Society of Jehovah's witnesses. History records a resounding \"yes\" as to their being awake. True to their name as witnesses they were world-wide watchmen up on their figurative \"watchtower,\" sounding forth the warning to the peoples of Christendom. But Christendom's multitudes for the most part paid little attention. Jeremiah accurately foretold this with these words of God: \"'I raised up over you people watchmen: \"Pay attention to the sound of the trumpet!'\" But they kept saying: 'We are not going to pay attention.'\"-Jer. 6:17.as far back as the year 1877, two years before their significantly named magazine, the Watch Tower, appeared, these modern witnesses of Jehovah heralded the truth that the Gentile times would end in 1914. During the thirty-seven years that followed, these witnesses energetically pressed forward with a world campaign to notify the nations that their lease of power without divine interruption would run out A.D. 1914.

A leading New York newspaper, The World, in its Sunday magazine section, August 30, 1914, in a feature article, historically adds to the much documentation available for world history as to the record of these Bible witnesses of Jehovah. At that time they were also known by their British corporation name, the International Bible Students Association. In part the article reports:



The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the 'International Bible Students,' best known as 'Millennial Dawners,' have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914. 'Look out for 1914!' has been the cry of the hundreds of traveling evangelists who, representing this strange creed, have gone up and down the country enunciating the doctrine that \"the Kingdom of God is at hand.'\"-Ibidem, p. 54.Since history confirms that Jehovah's witnesses were the only Christian group found awake as to 1914 and the ensuing \"last days,\" On the Mount of Olives shortly before his impalement four of Jesus' disciples, namely, Peter, James, John and Andrew, privately asked him for precise evidence about the last days, when he would be returning invisibly to direct the affairs of his servants on earth. Jesus' remarkably detailed reply is preserved for us in the Bible accounts written by Matthew, Mark and Luke, chapters 24, 13 and 21, respectively.-Mark 13:3.


Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

                        WORLD WAR 1  1914

Under the direction of this religious corporation the great world-wide campaign to announce the 1914 end of the \"times of the nations\" was undertaken, as mentioned earlier. The Watch Tower witnesses of Jehovah proved to be awake spiritual watchmen. But the Scriptures describe them as having unclean garments because of their long association with Christian apostasy. (Zech. 3:3, 4) They had many practices, characteristics and beliefs similar to the weedlike sects of Christendom. So from 1914 to 1918 a period of fiery testing came upon them, not unlike the ancient period of Babylonish captivity of the Jews back in 607-537 B.C.Of all the so-called Christian groups following World War I, only the awake witnesses of Jehovah were prepared to undertake the heavy global commission to preach the final witness. Fittingly Jesus said: \"He that has endured to the finish is the one that will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for the purpose of a witness to all the nations, and then the accomplished end will come.\"-Matt. 24:13, 14.

[Lee Freeman]

Alfonzo, on the contrary, I believe it is you who do not understand how the Watchtower interprets the word \"prophet.\" But read their own definition:

Prophet: One through whom Divine will and purpose are made known. (Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 1347)

The \"prophecy\" given by the prophet is defined as \"an inspired message: a revelation of divine will and purpose\" (p. 1334)

Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 1348 states:

The three essentials for establishing the credentials of the true prophet, as given through Moses were: the true prophet would speak in Jehovah's name; the things foretold would come to pass (Deut. 18:21-22); and his prophecies must promote true worship, being in harmony with God's revealed Word and his commandments. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Did you catch that, Alfonzo ( hopefully, because you quoted it above!)-one of the three essentials for establishing the credentials of a self-proclaimed \"prophet\" is that \"the things foretold must come to pass.\" Now, as I understand the word \"essential\" it means \"non-negotiable.\" Something that is indispensible.

The October 8, 1968 AWAKE!, included an article entitled, \"A Time to 'Lift Up Your Head' in Confident Hope.\" On p. 23 it stated:

True, there have been those in times past who predicted an \"end to the world\" [such as the Wtachtower itself], even annoucing a specific date [again the Watchtower]. Some have gathered groups of people with them and fled to the hills or withdrawn into their homes waiting for the end. Yet, nothing happened. The \"end\" did not come. THEY WERE GUILTY OF FALSE PROPHESYING. Why? What was missing?

Missing was the full measure of evidence required in fiulfillment of Bible prophecy. Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them.

But what about today? Today we have the evidence required, all of it. And the many, many parts of the great sign of the 'last days\" are here, together with verifying Bible chronology.

Alfonzo, this last quote is hypocritical; the Watchtower is self-righteously condeming others for doing the very things it was guilty of itself!

The Watchtower can try to backpeddle and redefine \"prophet\" but the quotations I posted earlier and the above quotations make it plain that the Watchtower interpreted \"prophet\" as one who predicted the future. And as one who predicted the future the Watchtower was WRONG every time. The Watchtower's main definition of \"prophet\" as evidenced by their own literature is \"one who foretells the future.\" And as \"one who foretells the future,\" from DAY ONE they have a 100% FAILURE RATE! Regardless of whether the last of the three essentials was the most important, Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 22 said: \"When a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, IF THE THING FOLLOW NOT, NOR COME TO PASS, THAT IS THE THING WHICH JEHOVAH HATH NOT SPOKEN.\"

But read the Watchtower's own definition of a prophet again:

A third way of coming to know Jehovah God is through his representatives. In ancient times he sent prophets as his special messengers. While these men foretold things to come. .  .

He had a \"prophet\" to warn them. This \"prophet\" was not one man, but a group of men and women. . . . Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses.

So Jehovah's ancient prophets \"foretold things to come\" and nowadays he also has such prophets-Jehovah's Christian Witnesses.

Alfonzo, don't keep drinking the Watchtower's poison kool-aid!

I will pray for God to open your eyes to the deception of the Watchtower.

Pax vobiscm.

[James Rondon]

Alfonzo, don't keep drinking the Watchtower's poison kool-aid!

I will pray for God to open your eyes to the deception of the Watchtower.

Amen.

[ollie]

I dont think you guys understand just was a \"prophet\" is

One through whom divine will and purpose are made known. (Lu 1:70; Ac 3:18-21) The Greek pro·phe´tes literally means \"a speaker out [Gr., pro, \"before\" or \"in front of,\" and phe·mi´, \"say\"]\" and thus describes a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source,
Though this includes the thought of a predictor of the future, the fundamental meaning of the word is not that of prediction. (Compare Jg 6:7-10.) Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus, God's prophets performed miraculous works that attested to the genuineness of their message and office. Not all, however, are recorded as performing such powerful works. The three essentials for establishing the credentials of a true prophet, as given through Moses, were: The true prophet would speak in Jehovah's name; the things foretold would come to pass (De 18:20-22); and his prophesying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God's revealed word and commandments (De 13:1-4). The last requirement was probably the most vital and decisive, for an individual might hypocritically use God's name, and by coincidence, his prediction might see fulfillment. But the true prophet was not solely or even primarily a prognosticator,

. Rather, he was an advocate of righteousness, and his message dealt primarily with moral standards and their application. He expressed God's mind on matters. (Isa 1:10-20; Mic 6:1-12) Hence, it was not necessary to wait perhaps for years or generations to determine whether the prophet was true or false by fulfillment of a prediction. If his message contradicted God's revealed will and standards, he was false. Thus, a prophet who foretold peace for Israel or Judah, at a time when the people were engaging in disobedience to God's Word and Law, of necessity was false.-Jer 6:13, 14; 14:11-16.

When we say :

ARROWS OF FAMINE AND PESTILENCE TO HIT CHRISTENDOM

its in the context of  a proclaimer, one who makes known messages attributed to a divine source,
not a predictor of the future,

CHRISTENDOM of which you guys are a part of will be destroyed as surely as was Jerusalem back in 607 B.C.E. Any associates of Christendom who survive her destruction in the \"great tribulation\" will not come through to any improved, long-lived future, any more than did those hypocritical survivors of ancient Jerusalem's destruction. They face only further hardship and eventual destruction in the further and concluding part of the \"great tribulation.\" Jehovah's symbolic \"sword\" of judicial execution will be brandished against them in the \"war of the great day of God the Almighty\" at the world situation called Har-Magedon. (Revelation 16:14-16; 19:11-21) In this way he will bring his righteous rage against religious hypocrisy and ungodliness to a finish upon them.

Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics?\"-MATTHEW 24:45.
Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.\" (Matthew 24:45-47)

, there would be a \"slave\" who had been assigned to provide spiritual food, a \"slave\" who would be both faithful and discreet. Was that slave a particular individual, a succession of individuals or Christendom

\"The faithful and discreet slave\" cannot be one person. Why not? Because the slave began serving spiritual food back in the first century, and according to Jesus, the slave would still be doing so when the Master arrived

might the term \"faithful and discreet slave\" apply in a general sense to each individual Christian? It is true that all Christians must be faithful and discreet; however, Jesus clearly had something more in mind when he spoke of \"the faithful and discreet slave.\" How do we know that? Because he said that the \"master on arriving\" would appoint the slave \"over all his belongings.\"

Jehovah referred to the entire nation of Israel as \"my witnesses\" and \"my servant whom I have chosen.\" (Isaiah 43:10) Every member of the nation of Israel from 1513 B.C.E., when the Mosaic Law was given, down to Pentecost 33 C.E. was part of this servant class. Most Israelites did not have a direct share in administering the nation's affairs or in coordinating its spiritual feeding program. Jehovah used the kings, judges, prophets, priests, and Levites to carry out those tasks. Still, as a nation, Israel was to represent Jehovah's sovereignty and tell his praises among the nations. Each Israelite was to be a witness of Jehovah.-Deuteronomy 26:19; Isaiah 43:21; Malachi 2:7; Romans 3:1, 2.



When Jesus' presence ,NOT COMING ,began in 1914, did he find a group of anointed Christians who were faithfully dispensing food at the proper time? He certainly did. This group could be clearly identified because of the fine fruitage that it was producing. (Matthew 7:20) History since then has proved this identification to be correct



At the time of Jesus' arrival, some 5,000 domestics were busy spreading Bible truth. The workers were few, but the slave used a number of ingenious methods to spread the good news. (Matthew 9:38) For example, arrangements were made for sermons on Bible topics to be published in up to 2,000 newspapers. In this way, the truth of God's Word reached tens of thousands of readers at once. In addition, an eight-hour program combining color slides and motion pictures was prepared. Thanks to this innovative presentation, the Bible's message, from the beginning of Creation to the end of the Thousand Year Reign of Christ, was conveyed to audiences totaling over nine million on three continents. Printed literature was another avenue that was used. In 1914, for example, some 50,000 copies of this journal were published.the Master arrived, he found his faithful slave conscientiously feeding the domestics as well as preaching the good news. Greater responsibilities now awaited that slave. Jesus said: \"Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.\" (Matthew 24:47) Jesus did this in 1919, after the slave had passed through a period of testing. Why, though, did \"the faithful and discreet slave\" receive greater responsibilities? Because the Master had received an increase in his belongings. Jesus was given the kingship in 1914.What are the belongings over which the newly crowned Master appointed his faithful slave? All the spiritual things that belong to Him here on earth. For example, two decades after Christ's enthronement in 1914, \"a great crowd\" of \"other sheep\" was identified. (Revelation 7:9; John 10:16), when we view the \"faithful and discreet slave\" as being the whole body of disciples (including spiritual overseers), it eliminates such a thing as \"episcopal succession\" that history shows has worked such harm and oppression in Christendom,At the Festival of Pentecost of the year 33 C.E., fifty days from the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, the circumcised nation of natural Israel was cast off by Jehovah God. But about the years 50-52 the Christian apostle Paul wrote to his Christian brothers in the Roman province of Galatia and said: \"Neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.\" (Galatians 6:15, 16) The true Christian congregation was the organization that walked orderly by that rule regarding a \"new creation,\" and now, since natural Israel's being rejected, the congregation of Christ's followers was \"the Israel of God.\" It was a spiritual Israel. As a united congregation it was the \"servant\" of Jehovah God and his Christ. To it in a spiritual way Isaiah 43:10 could be directed: \"'You are my witnesses,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'even my servant.'\"Although raising the question about the \"faithful and discreet slave,\" Jesus was in no doubt about who this \"slave\" was. Jesus doubtless had in mind that \"servant\" of Jehovah God, that \"Israel of God.\" There would be no mistake in fixing upon that composite \"servant.\" With the price of his own blood he had bought that Israel of God as his slave, and in the illustration given in his prophecy he could refer to it as a composite \"slave,\" one that would prove \"faithful and discreet.\" Since Jesus spoke of this \"slave\" in his prophecy concerning the \"sign of [his] presence and of the conclusion of the system of things,\" did that composite \"faithful and discreet slave\" first come into existence during his \"presence\" or parousia from 1914 onward?No; for Jesus' illustration portrays the lord of the \"slave\" as going away, as a \"man traveling abroad that left his house and gave the authority to his slaves.\" (Mark 13:34) So the \"faithful and discreet slave\" is one \"whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time.\" (Matthew 24:45) It was more than nineteen hundred years ago, at his ascension to heaven, that the \"master\" of the composite \"slave\" went away, leaving the \"slave\" with instructions to feed the \"domestics.\" (Matthew 28:16-20) The \"domestics\" were not the family of the master but were his \"domestic servants\" (H. A. W. Meyer) or his \"household staff.\" (New English Bible) They were slaves, just the same as the \"faithful and discreet slave\" charged with feeding them. Thus they were all a body of slaves, and were all subject to the same \"master.\" All were obligated to be \"faithful and discreet.\"Jesus' illustration began fulfillment at his departure in the year 33 C.E., and the composite \"slave\" has been existing since then, namely, \"the Israel of God,\" the spirit-begotten, anointed congregation of Christ the membership of which will finally reach 144,000. (Revelation 7:4-8; 14:1-3) The historical records show that at the beginning of the invisible parousia of the \"master\" at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 there was still a remnant of this \"slave\" class on earth. Consequently, the composite \"slave\" has lived to see the \"sign\" of the Master's parousia or \"presenceOn inspecting the remnant of his anointed disciples in the year 1919 C.E., the reigning King Jesus Christ did find the appointed \"slave\" faithful and discreet in the feeding of his \"domestics.\" Accordingly, he appointed this \"slave\" class over all his belongings. Their enlarged responsible position now was that of serving in fulfillment of the now due Kingdom prophecies.Jesus, before his departure nineteen centuries ago, took care not to appoint a bad, evil, worthless \"slave\" over his \"domestics.\" The record in the Christian Greek Scriptures proves that the appointed \"slave\" class did not turn out bad, and the prophecies thereof show that the \"slave\" class was not expected to turn out bad and would not do so. In his tried and proved apostles he laid the foundation for the building up of a body of faithful slaves. Revelation 7:3-8 foretells that a full 144,000 spiritual Israelites would be sealed as \"the slaves of our God.\" Revelation 12:17 foretells that, after the dragon Satan the Devil is ousted from heaven, he would war upon the remnant of the \"seed\" of God's \"woman,\" who \"observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.\" And Revelation 14:1-4 foretells that the entire number of 144,000 \"that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes\" stand with him upon the Mount Zion. They \"have been bought from the earth.\" \"These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.\"One might ask, Were any world watchmen awake to sound out the warning before 1914 of this pending time of global trouble? If there were, then such alert watchmen must now know more about these times since 1914 than any others on earth. Such watchmen should be sought out for guidance and counsel in these increasingly perilous times. They may be able to show inquiring persons where the course of safety lies.Would one have found such awake watchmen among the Catholic clergy? Not likely! History shows they were too busy before 1914 and since with their church rituals and engaging in world politics to have been alert to the signs of these times. Perhaps the many Protestant groups were tipped off and kept awake. No! Their clergy were too engrossed before 1914 with their higher criticism of the Bible and with what they call modernism. But how about the Jewish sages and rabbis? Again no! Before 1914 they were fully occupied with materialism and busy advocating Zionism for a re-established dream state in Palestine. How about the farsighted world politicians and financiers? Maybe they knew what was coming. Very definitely no! They were up to their necks in preparing for war and raking in its profits. All these proved to be sleepy \"watchmen\" in Christian name only. Isaiah describes them well: \"His watchmen are blind. None of them have taken note. All of them are speechless dogs; they are not able to bark, panting, lying down, loving to slumber.\"-Isa. 56:10.was the world left without advance warning by alert watchmen? Not at all! There still is one more group to check on, that of the Watch Tower Society of Jehovah's witnesses. History records a resounding \"yes\" as to their being awake. True to their name as witnesses they were world-wide watchmen up on their figurative \"watchtower,\" sounding forth the warning to the peoples of Christendom. But Christendom's multitudes for the most part paid little attention. Jeremiah accurately foretold this with these words of God: \"'I raised up over you people watchmen: \"Pay attention to the sound of the trumpet!'\" But they kept saying: 'We are not going to pay attention.'\"-Jer. 6:17.as far back as the year 1877, two years before their significantly named magazine, the Watch Tower, appeared, these modern witnesses of Jehovah heralded the truth that the Gentile times would end in 1914. During the thirty-seven years that followed, these witnesses energetically pressed forward with a world campaign to notify the nations that their lease of power without divine interruption would run out A.D. 1914.

A leading New York newspaper, The World, in its Sunday magazine section, August 30, 1914, in a feature article, historically adds to the much documentation available for world history as to the record of these Bible witnesses of Jehovah. At that time they were also known by their British corporation name, the International Bible Students Association. In part the article reports:



The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the 'International Bible Students,' best known as 'Millennial Dawners,' have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914. 'Look out for 1914!' has been the cry of the hundreds of traveling evangelists who, representing this strange creed, have gone up and down the country enunciating the doctrine that \"the Kingdom of God is at hand.'\"-Ibidem, p. 54.Since history confirms that Jehovah's witnesses were the only Christian group found awake as to 1914 and the ensuing \"last days,\" On the Mount of Olives shortly before his impalement four of Jesus' disciples, namely, Peter, James, John and Andrew, privately asked him for precise evidence about the last days, when he would be returning invisibly to direct the affairs of his servants on earth. Jesus' remarkably detailed reply is preserved for us in the Bible accounts written by Matthew, Mark and Luke, chapters 24, 13 and 21, respectively.-Mark 13:3.


Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

                        WORLD WAR 1  1914

Under the direction of this religious corporation the great world-wide campaign to announce the 1914 end of the \"times of the nations\" was undertaken, as mentioned earlier. The Watch Tower witnesses of Jehovah proved to be awake spiritual watchmen. But the Scriptures describe them as having unclean garments because of their long association with Christian apostasy. (Zech. 3:3, 4) They had many practices, characteristics and beliefs similar to the weedlike sects of Christendom. So from 1914 to 1918 a period of fiery testing came upon them, not unlike the ancient period of Babylonish captivity of the Jews back in 607-537 B.C.Of all the so-called Christian groups following World War I, only the awake witnesses of Jehovah were prepared to undertake the heavy global commission to preach the final witness. Fittingly Jesus said: \"He that has endured to the finish is the one that will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for the purpose of a witness to all the nations, and then the accomplished end will come.\"-Matt. 24:13, 14.

\"CHRISTENDOM of which you guys are a part of will be destroyed as surely as was Jerusalem back in 607 B.C.E\"

What is \"CHRISTENDOM\"?  I cannot find such in scripture. I can find a falling away that is to come out of Christ's church. However Christ's church is built on a rock, (Jesus Christ), that will prevail against the gates of death and hell, even said falling away.

If you are refering to the ekklesia that Christ purchased with His blood, then you are a false prophet. Jesus Christ is the Saviour of His ekklesia not the destroyer of such.

Are Jehovah's witnesses the purchased possession, the  ekklesia that Christ died for, shed His blood for, paid the price for? Does scripture proclaim such?

Why are you denominated as Jehovah's witnesses? Who decided on that name for your group and when? Was it Judge Rutherford and the Bible students/followers of Russell, Rutherford in the 1930s? Where is the scripture for such happennings in the 1930s?

Where in scripture are we told that Christ died for an organization identified as Jehovah's witnesses?

Where in scripture is it told that a publishing organization known as \"The Watchtower Society\" would have the last say as to what God is revealing to the world?

Concerning the word of God. Psalms 12:6-7

1 John 4:1.  \"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2.  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3.  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.\"KJV

1 John 4:1 \"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

2 YOU gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, 3 but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist's [inspired expression] which YOU have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.\"NWT

Interesting that it is said that the antiChrist\"s expression is inspired in the NWT translation.

Come out of this devil's work and in to Jesus Christ! He is the way, the truth, and the life!

ollie[/color]

[memmy]

I have also asked God to break the chains that bind Alfonzo's heart.

Let's everyone.

Memmy

[kizzie]

JWISN'TTHETRUTH did not bother to reply to my post on their record of making predictions on the last thread, so I'm going to assume that he isn't interested (like so many other \"witnesses\") in honest and open study of the word with a view to learning the truth.  He is just hear to spout his Watchtower propaganda, hoping that someone will be mislead to their false doctrine.

As I said in the other thread, I have studied with and about them, and for the most part, they are a dishonest group (and a thoroughly brainwashed one), pretending to study with you but according to the Watchtower agenda, instead of according to God's Word.

They have no interest in the truth in the Bible, only in the truth according to the Watchtower Society.  This is why they have no problem using a translation that is so obviously biased. I guess they do not have any fear of God, since they can add to and take away from his holy word without any thought to the warning God gave.

I am challenging JWISN'TTHETRUTH to engage in honest, scripture based study with us, rather than typing large posts that are nothing but Watchtower propaganda, typed word for word from their publications.

God gave us minds that are able to discern right from wrong if we will only use them.  We do this by studying the scriptures dilligently, training our minds to compare what we are being told to what God's word tells us.

I've spent way too many years trying to get thru to some of them (even one would make me happy), but their fear of the unknown keeps them held captive to the obviously (to us anyway) false doctrines of this society.  I feel very sorry for them, because there are so many really nice people in this deluded group.

Prove me wrong JWISN'TTHETRUTH.  Show me that you can study with others honestly from the scriptures, asking and answering questions without falling back on the false teachings of the WT.

[Lee Freeman]

I'm with you Kizzie. I wish Alfonzo would agree to study without an appeal to the Watchtower, but likely he cannot do this, because he has been taught that all spiritual Truth resides in the Watchtower-he can't draw a disctinction between Scripture and the Watchtower's interpretation of Scripture-a common problem among people in such sects.

I showed him nearly two dozen false prophecies made by the Watchtower-from the Watchtower's own official literature, yet he still cannot or will not admit it. In typical JW fashion he merely claims that there's more than one defibnition of \"prophecy\" and that foretelling the future isn't the main definition, yet its clear to me from historic Watchtower literature that, while claiming all three definitions of \"prophecy\" the Society has used the third interpretation of \"prophecy\" throughout its existence, stating categorically that it was God's modern day prophet, among whose mission was to foretell the future. From what I can tell, historically the Watchtower never made a disctinction saying that one definition of \"prophet\" was more important than the other two-they staked their reputation upon all three of them. And yet every time they made a categoric, dogmatic, precise prediction of the end of the world they were wrong. But instead of admitting their whole approach and theology were/are wrong, what they did was to spiritualize it. While before they had said Christ would literally, physically return, overthrow the nations and set up his kingdom, now they said that Jesus did return, only not in a physical, visible way, but in a secretive, spiritual way, visible only to members of the Society. Because the Society knew/knows that to admit that they were dead wrong would be to invalidate their self-apponited designation as a rophet, 'cause prophets don't make such mistakes. The closest they got to such an admission was in 1931 in which they admitted:

There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1914, 1918 and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time. Later the faithful learned that these dates were definitely fixed in the Scriptures; and they also learned to quit fixing dates for the future and predicting what would come to pass on a certain date, but to rely (and they do rely) upon the Word of God as to the events that must come to pass.

That should've been a red-flag to members that the Society was not a real prophet. But the Society apparently shortly after this time began to \"spiritualize\" its end-time theology, saying it had already begun, but on a \"spiritual\" plane, invisible to all but elect members of the Society. That way, when asked for conclusive proof that what they taught was true, they could say, \"We're sorry if you can't see it, apparently you're not one of Jehovah's chosen ones.\" Convenient.

I also feel sorry for the millions of good people like Alfonzo who've been decieved by the Watchtower.

I for one, will listen to Moses, who wrote that if a prophet speaks for God what he foretells will come to pass. The Watchtower fails the venerable patriarch's test.

Pax vobiscum.

[Cliftyman]

I haven't really responded to anything on these various threads but one thing I find amusing.... Alfonzo (I believe that is your name), you keep grouping every one who is a follower of Christ under the very broad term of \"Christiandom\".  

I am a follower of Christ who personally thinks Christiandom is a bad term, something that we should keep from being identified with...  I also don't believe the world is going to be blown out of the universe... I believe after its purified a new heaven and a new Earth will come into existence through the power of God.

My friend your leaders have told you many things about Christians that is just not true.  We are not purely homogenous in our beliefs.  Take a little time to talk and communicate with some of us and ask us what we actually believe... you may be pleasantly surprised that everything is not as your elders tell you it is.

[Lee Freeman]

I haven't really responded to anything on these various threads but one thing I find amusing.... Alfonzo (I believe that is your name), you keep grouping every one who is a follower of Christ under the very broad term of \"Christiandom\".  

I am a follower of Christ who personally thinks Christiandom is a bad term, something that we should keep from being identified with...  I also don't believe the world is going to be blown out of the universe... I believe after its purified a new heaven and a new Earth will come into existence through the power of God.

My friend your leaders have told you many things about Christians that is just not true.  We are not purely homogenous in our beliefs.  Take a little time to talk and communicate with some of us and ask us what we actually believe... you may be pleasantly surprised that everything is not as your elders tell you it is.

The Watchtower does not recognize any non-Witness as a true Christian. That is why they will not even pray with a non-Witness and it's the reason they lump all of us together as apostate \"Christendom.\"

To the Watchtower you follow a false Christ since you believe that Christ was divine, as the Nicene Creed says, \"true God from true God,\" which the Watchtower rejects.

Pax.