Proclaiming the Sabbath more fully at the End Time

[Shubee]

beam:
If all SDAs believe the law has been fulfilled...

Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh-day Millerites agree: The law has been fulfilled in the sense that Christ has filled it full. This is further clarified in Article 7 of The Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Millerites, Circa 2019.

[beam]

Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh-day Millerites agree: The law has been fulfilled in the sense that Christ has filled it full. This is further clarified in Article 7 of The Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Millerites, Circa 2019.

But that is not what is written in the Holy Writ.  Who gave you the authority to change the meaning of God's Word?

[Shubee]

beam:
But that is not what is written in the Holy Writ.  Who gave you the authority to change the meaning of God's Word?

Consider God's word quoted in Reply #168 and your dismissal of it. Indisputably, your refusal to face God's Word is proof that you have some other meaning in mind to replace the actual text. In effect, you have changed the meaning of God's Word.

[Amo]

Whole threads of endless paragraphs of verbal rubbish JUST BECAUSE people like Beam (like all of us and every man) stand condemned under the single specific Fourth of the Ten Commandments and WILL NOT submit. Once a man submitted to the Law and admits the Law of GOD is right and he is wrong, there is hope for his predicament and a cure for his sickness. Otherwise he shall have to suffer under the condemnation of the Law of God for as long as he lives PLUS FOREVER AFTER. Because then he has not received the grace of Christ. Or do you think it's just the other way round? Even if you're right, that's how it is mate; no one of us is crossing the lake of fire in another boat.

True that. I've been debating pretty much the same arguments with slight variations for at least 30 years now. None of them really believe the law is done away with. They refuse to acknowledge the authority of just one of them, the rest is just the tangled web weaved to support this first or primary deception. They claim Christ came to do away with the law, we claim He came to establish it. So be it, God will judge between us.

[beam]

True that. I've been debating pretty much the same arguments with slight variations for at least 30 years now. None of them really believe the law is done away with. They refuse to acknowledge the authority of just one of them, the rest is just the tangled web weaved to support this first or primary deception. They claim Christ came to do away with the law, we claim He came to establish it. So be it, God will judge between us.

Amo, if the old covenant laws are still part of how man is supposed to live then please tell me and all who believe as I do why you do not do all that the old covenant laws demand.  Remember Jesus said: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.   Tell us how you get around Jesus words.  Are you able to see the word "all"?   Before you can delete any part of the law before all is fulfilled is certainly a sin if you believe as you do.   You are not allowed to pick and choose.

Jesus didn't come to take away the law, He came to save Jews who were condemned by the law.   Jesus proved to the World that the law could be kept.  He fulfilled the law and fulfilled means to bring to an end.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Beam:
if the old covenant laws are still part of how man is supposed to live then please tell me and all who believe as I do why you do not do all that the old covenant laws demand.

Boasting boasting blurting burping bragging LIAR. What do YOU do any better than anyone else this  side of his grave, he? BSer!

[beam]

Boasting boasting blurting burping bragging LIAR. What do YOU do any better than anyone else this  side of his grave, he? BSer!

I rest my case.  Personal attacks when nothing logical can be found for an answer.  I sure am getting a lot of personal attacks from you supposedly remnant Christian SDAs.   Really nice people you are??? 

[Amo]

Amo, if the old covenant laws are still part of how man is supposed to live then please tell me and all who believe as I do why you do not do all that the old covenant laws demand.  Remember Jesus said: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.   Tell us how you get around Jesus words.  Are you able to see the word "all"?   Before you can delete any part of the law before all is fulfilled is certainly a sin if you believe as you do.   You are not allowed to pick and choose.

Jesus didn't come to take away the law, He came to save Jews who were condemned by the law.   Jesus proved to the World that the law could be kept.  He fulfilled the law and fulfilled means to bring to an end.

Yes, I understand that those who have rejected the truth cannot see it right in front of their faces.Their minds immediately twist all to their own deceived perceptions.

Mat 5:Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

First, the law being spoken of is the ten commandments, not all the laws given to Israel as has already been pointed out to you. You simply immediately deny and reject such because you have chosen a lie over the truth and must do so in support of the same. Jesus revealed this by immediately expounding upon or should I say exalting the law by giving example of the greater depth of two of the ten commandments of God right after stating the above. Again, you simply reject this according to your chosen false gospel.

Second, Jesus was not just talking about fulfilling the law in the above, but also the prophets or prophecy as verse five clearly points out. The first coming of Jesus Christ did not in any way shape or form completely fulfill the prophecies of the old testament. Anyone therefore who "shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." That would be you beam.

The statement quoted itself is a prophecy given by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to be fulfilled one way or the other by all from that time forward. If you had not already chosen to believe a lie, you would plainly see that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did not establish such truth as He did in the scriptures under observation, just to nullify them a couple of years later by His death. Even the favorite apostle of the false gospel proponents, Paul, testifies that Jesus came to establish the law, not do away with it. He did away with its condemnation upon the saved, not its authority. If the authority of the law is no more, then all are already saved and there is no need of a savior any longer.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Faith does not do away with the law, it establishes the law. The whole reason we need salvation in Christ Jesus is because the authority of God's law still stands. Go to, preach salvation, but salvation from what? Certainly not sin, apparently. Your false gospel does not allow for it.

1 Joh 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Beam:
I rest my case.  Personal attacks when nothing logical can be found for an answer.  I sure am getting a lot of personal attacks from you supposedly remnant Christian SDAs.   Really nice people you are??? 

I am no "'remnant Christian SDA'" or one of the "'nice people'" we both come from. Only difference is you're still one. I'm the baddy, the really bad one. Because unlike you, I use the Sword of God's Word to kill arrogance and arrogant people. And every time I see another head rolls, I say, Good riddance. Victory to Truth!

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Amo

For what my opinion might be worth to anyone; to you, most probably, sultsch. As I prefer it. Agreement with me almost always shows I'm not understood; applause always shows I'm misunderstood. Insult shows I'm understood but not the implication; being ignored proves the implication is understood as well.

Being a SDA, you by now understand the implication Christ's Resurrection has for The Lord's Day, "SABBATH - REST-DAY - OF THE LORD YOUR GOD".

Three things together are going to torment your conscience for the rest of your life,
That you know and understand the relationship between the Sabbath and the Law;
That you know and understand the relationship between the Sabbath and Redemption;
And that you know and understand the relationship between Redemption and Christ's Resurrection...
but refuses to know or understand the relationship between his Resurrection and The Lord's Day "SABBATH - REST-DAY - OF THE LORD GOD" and "THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION"!

I hope and wish and pray the Truth will haunt you and grant you no rest until you yielded.

[beam]

Yes, I understand that those who have rejected the truth cannot see it right in front of their faces.Their minds immediately twist all to their own deceived perceptions.

Thanks Amo for your reply.  I can see that you  have believed a lie and I will explain that in my response below.

Mat 5:Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

First, the law being spoken of is the ten commandments,

You gave no proof that Jesus was referring to just the 10 commandments.  The law that Jesus lived under were 613 rules and included the 10 commandments.  They lived under all of the old covenant not just part of it.  To try to prove He was just referring to the 10 is ludicrous and would be laughed at if you presented that to scholars of scripture.   

not all the laws given to Israel as has already been pointed out to you.

Sorry, I must have missed your point or maybe you really didn't ever point it out because I would have jumped on answering that false claim.

You simply immediately deny and reject such because you have chosen a lie over the truth and must do so in support of the same.

You bet I do because it bears no truth, if it did you would have used scripture to prove your point.

Jesus revealed this by immediately expounding upon or should I say exalting the law by giving example of the greater depth of two of the ten commandments of God right after stating the above. Again, you simply reject this according to your chosen false gospel.

Nope, that doesn't prove one thing.  In fact it proves just the opposite which you should have caught before making that claim.  Where did divorce, vows, revenge and love your enemies come from Amo?  Please don't try to woof me with untruths.  I was not born yesterday my friend.  Those four things came from the book of the law, not the 10 commandments.  So, if you think that paragraph is proof of anything said in the paragraph we are debating it would be one for me, not you.

Second, Jesus was not just talking about fulfilling the law in the above, but also the prophets or prophecy as verse five clearly points out.

Quite true Amo.  The prophets prophesied about the coming of Jesus as Messiah and Jesus fulfilled that prophesy.

The first coming of Jesus Christ did not in any way shape or form completely fulfill the prophecies of the old testament.

Quite true, but as I wrote He did fulfil the ones about Him

Anyone therefore who "shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." That would be you beam.

Notice that He is only referring to commandments and He didn't specify only 10 of them.  Remember there were 613 commandments.

The statement quoted itself is a prophecy given by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to be fulfilled one way or the other by all from that time forward.

What do you mean "by all"?   Did not Jesus fulfil everything He came to do?  What did He leave out?  He came to save lost man.  He came to be Messiah for all mankind.  He did what prophecy said He would.

If you had not already chosen to believe a lie, you would plainly see that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did not establish such truth as He did in the scriptures under observation, just to nullify them a couple of years later by His death.

Jesus lived under the old covenant law.  It was not His purpose to change the old covenant laws while living on Earth.  His purpose was to die for the sins of all of His children on Earth, past, present, and future.   The old covenant was not one of salvation.  Jesus introduced the new covenant, the one that says if we believe in Him was will have everlasting life.  His ministry was all about love and He even introduced the New Commandment, the one that tells us to love others as He loves us.  There is nothing greater than to give our lives for others.

Even the favorite apostle of the false gospel proponents, Paul, testifies that Jesus came to establish the law, not do away with it. He did away with its condemnation upon the saved, not its authority. If the authority of the law is no more, then all are already saved and there is no need of a savior any longer.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

HMMM! Will finish this when I get back from worshipping Jesus and fellowshipping with my fellow believing Christians. 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Beam:
You gave no proof that Jesus was referring to just the 10 commandments.  The law that Jesus lived under were 613 rules and included the 10 commandments.  They lived under all of the old covenant not just part of it.  To try to prove He was just referring to the 10 is ludicrous and would be laughed at if you presented that to scholars of scripture.

Like Beam, THE BIG scholar of scripture ... what a farce.
Present the names of the "'scholars of scripture'", Christian, who 'refer' to "'613 rules (of) the law Jesus lived under'", you ludicrous joke -- no, you proud know-nothing useless swollen head!

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Nope, that doesn't prove one thing.  In fact it proves just the opposite which you should have caught before making that claim.  Where did divorce, vows, revenge and love your enemies come from Amo?  Please don't try to woof me with untruths.  I was not born yesterday my friend.  Those four things came from the book of the law, not the 10 commandments.  So, if you think that paragraph is proof of anything said in the paragraph we are debating it would be one for me, not you.

In South Africa, my country, people pronounce the word 'people', like 'poo-pol' for the winners.

[beam]

Remainder of Amo's post.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Faith does not do away with the law, it establishes the law. The whole reason we need salvation in Christ Jesus is because the authority of God's law still stands. Go to, preach salvation, but salvation from what? Certainly not sin, apparently. Your false gospel does not allow for it.

Every commandment in the covenant was good.  God had a reason for each command and there is certainly much to be gleaned from the law.  The law condemned the Israelites because did not observe it by faith.  Please do not blame me for what Paul wrote.  Gal 3:19  2Cor3:7-11  Eph 2:14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us.[/size] [/size]15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations.

1 Joh 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Just to let you know that John explains what law we are under in the closing verses of the chapter.  1jn3:10-24                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

But that is not what is written in the Holy Writ.  Who gave you the authority to change the meaning of God's Word?

The perfect exemplar of Beam authority and authenticity: VOID NOTHING OF VOID NOTHING. Pathetic! Are you not ashamed by posting such crap for anyone to see as your very bombastic best?!

[Amo]

beam -

You gave no proof that Jesus was referring to just the 10 commandments.  The law that Jesus lived under were 613 rules and included the 10 commandments.  They lived under all of the old covenant not just part of it.  To try to prove He was just referring to the 10 is ludicrous and would be laughed at if you presented that to scholars of scripture.

Jesus did not come to fulfill the civil laws of the literal nation of Israel, many of which have no salvific or spiritual implications. Apart from this, He and the apostles plainly taught that there would be and were major changes concerning the ceremonial laws being fulfilled in our Lord and Savior. They were not simply done away with, but rather established in Christ Jesus, just as the ten commandments are. If you want to insist that Jesus was talking about 613 laws, including those specifically pointed out by Jesus and the apostles as having changed, then you should be keeping all of them. That is your claim not mine.

I can an do accept that Jesus Christ came to fulfill all the law and the prophets just as He testified, that fulfillment did bring about changes, properly understanding what those changes were includes properly dividing the word of God in regards to the same. This is a large part of what the NT is all about. The facts remain, He conclusively stated that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. That fulfillment included changes to the ceremonial laws clearly explained by Christ and the apostles. The commandments of God however, are held up as the continuous standard up to the last book ad chapter of the bible.

Perhaps the following quotes form various commentaries can help you with this issue. Several of them contradict your above statement that all would laugh at the idea that Jesus was referring mainly to the moral law or ten commandments in the verses under examination. Even those addressing the entire law, do not share your perspective. All emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/matthew/5.htm

Barns' Notes

...............................................................


MT 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

........................................................

The laws of the Jews are commonly divided into moral, ceremonial, and judicial. The moral laws are such as grow out of the nature of things, and which cannot, therefore, be changed - such as the duty of loving God and his creatures. These cannot be abolished, as it can never be made right to hate God, or to hate our fellow-men. Of this kind are the ten commandments, and these our Saviour has neither abolished nor superseded. The ceremonial laws are such as are appointed to meet certain states of society, or to regulate the religious rites and ceremonies of a people. These can be changed when circumstances are changed, and yet the moral law be untouched. A general in an army may command his soldiers to appear sometimes in a red coat and sometimes in blue or in yellow. This would be a ceremonial law, and might be changed as he pleased. The duty of obeying him, and of being faithful to his country, could not be changed.

This is a moral law. A parent might permit his children to have 50 different dresses at different times, and love them equally in all. The dress is a mere matter of ceremony, and may be changed. The child, in all these garments, is bound to love and obey his father. This is a moral law, and cannot be changed. So the laws of the Jews. Those designed to regulate mere matters of ceremony and rites of worship might be changed. Those requiring love and obedience to God and love to people could not be changed, and Christ did not attempt it, Matthew 19:19; Matthew 22:37-39; Luke 10:27; Romans 13:9. A third species of law was the judicial, or those laws regulating courts of justice which are contained in the Old Testament. These were of the nature of the ceremonial law, and might also be changed at pleasure. The judicial law of the Hebrews was adapted to their own civil society. When the form of their polity was changed this was of course no longer binding. The ceremonial law was fulfilled by the coming of Christ: the shadow was lost in the substance, and ceased to be binding. The moral law was confirmed and unchanged.



https://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/matthew/5.htm

Benson Commentary

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

......................................................

Shall in no wise pass from, the law — Or, from the prophets, till all be fulfilled — Till all things which the law requires, or the prophets foretel, shall be effected. This seems to be the literal translation of the original words, εως αν παντα γενηται: for the law has its effect when its sanctions are executed, as well as when its precepts are obeyed. And the predictions of the prophets have their proper effect and confirmation, when they are accomplished. Some, however, understand the words as meaning, till the end, or, consummation of all things shall come, or, till the heavens and the earth shall pass away, or be destroyed. The meaning of our Lord's words, according to this interpretation, is, that there is nothing in the universe so stable as the truths contained in the moral law, and nothing so certain as the fulfilment of the predictions of the prophets: the heavens may fall, and the whole frame of nature be unhinged, nay, every part of it may be dissolved; but the rules of righteousness, and the declarations of the divine word, with their sanctions, shall remain immutable and eternal: for the word of the Lord endureth for ever, 1 Peter 1:25. Our Lord therefore proceeds, in the two next verses, to command his disciples, on the severest penalties, to enforce, both by their doctrine and example, the strict observation of all the moral precepts contained in the sacred writings, and that in their utmost extent.


https://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/matthew/5.htm

Calvin's Commentaries

Mt 5:17-19

17.............................................................

By these words he is so far from departing from the former covenant, that, on the contrary, he declares, that it will be confirmed and ratified, when it shall be succeeded by the new. This is also the meaning of Christ's words, when he says, that he came to fulfill the law: for he actually fulfilled it, by quickening, with his Spirit, the dead letter, and then exhibiting, in reality, what had hitherto appeared only in figures.

With respect to doctrine, we must not imagine that the coming of Christ has freed us from the authority of the law: for it is the eternal rule of a devout and holy life, and must, therefore, be as unchangeable, as the justice of God, which it embraced, is constant and uniform. With respect to ceremonies, there is some appearance of a change having taken place; but it was only the use of them that was abolished, for their meaning was more fully confirmed. The coming of Christ has taken nothing away even from ceremonies, but, on the contrary, confirms them by exhibiting the truth of shadows: for, when we see their full effect, we acknowledge that they are not vain or useless. Let us therefore learn to maintain inviolable this sacred tie between the law and the Gospel, which many improperly attempt to break. For it contributes not a little to confirm the authority of the Gospel, when we learn, that it is nothing else than a fulfillment of the law; so that both, with one consent, declare God to be their Author.

19. Whoever then shall break Christ here speaks expressly of the commandments of life, or the ten words, which all the children of God ought to take as the rule of their life. He therefore declares, that they are false and deceitful teachers, who do not restrain their disciples within obedience to the law, and that they are unworthy to occupy a place in the Church, who weaken, in the slightest degree, the authority of the law; and, on the other hand, that they are honest and faithful ministers of God, who recommend, both by word and by example, the keeping of the law. The least commandments is an expression used in accommodation to the judgment of men: for though they have not all the same weight, (but, when they are compared together, some are less than others,) yet we are not at liberty to think any thing small, on which the heavenly Legislator has been pleased to issue a command. For what sacrilege is it to treat contemptuously any thing which has proceeded from his sacred mouth? This is to sink his majesty to the rank of creatures. Accordingly, when our Lord calls them little commandments, it is a sort of concession. He shall be called the least This is an allusion to what he had just said about the commandments: but the meaning is obvious. Those who shall pour contempt on the doctrine of the law, or on a single syllable of it, will be rejected as the lowest of men. [384]

The kingdom of heaven means the renovation of the Church, or the prosperous condition of the Church, such as was then beginning to appear by the preaching of the Gospel. In this sense, Christ tells us, that "he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than John," (Luke 7:28.) The meaning of that phrase is, that God, restoring the world by the hand of his Son, has completely established his kingdom. Christ declares that, when his Church shall have been renewed, no teachers must be admitted to it, but those who are faithful expounders of the law, and who labor to maintain its doctrine entire. But it is asked, were not ceremonies among the commandments of God, the least of which we are now required to observe? I answer, We must look to the design and object of the Legislator. God enjoined ceremonies, that their outward use might be temporal, and their meaning eternal. That man does not break ceremonies, who omits what is shadowy, but retains their effect. But if Christ banishes from his kingdom all who accustom men to any contempt of the law how monstrous must be their stupidity, who are not ashamed to remit, by a sacrilegious indulgence, what God strictly demands, and, under the pretense of venial sin, to overthrow the righteousness of the law. [385] Again, we must observe the description he gives of good and holy teachers: that not only by words, but chiefly by the example of life, they exhort [386] men to keep the law.



https://biblehub.com/commentaries/ellicott/matthew/5.htm

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(19) Shall break one of these least commandments.—The words seem at first to imply that even the ceremonial law was to be binding in its full extent upon Christ's disciples. The usage of the time, however, confined the word to the moral laws of God (as in Ecclesiasticus 32:23-24), and throughout the New Testament it is never used in any other sense, with the possible exception of Hebrews 7:5; Hebrews 7:16 (comp. especially Romans 13:9; 1Corinthians 7:19). And the context, which proceeds at once to deal with moral laws and does not touch on ceremonial, is in accordance with this meaning. The "least commandments," then, are those which seemed trivial, yet were really great—the control of thoughts, desires, words, as compared with the apparently greater commands that dealt with acts. The reference to "teaching" shows that our Lord was speaking to His disciples, as the future instructors of mankind, and the obvious import of His words is that they were to raise, not lower, the standard of righteousness which had been recognised previously.



https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gsb/matthew/5.htm

Geneva Study Bible

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

{3} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but {g} to fulfil.

(3) Christ did not come to bring any new way of righteousness and salvation into the world, but indeed to fulfil that which was shadowed by the figures of the Law, by delivering men through grace from the curse of the Law: and moreover to teach the true use of obedience which the Law appointed, and to engrave in our hearts the power for obedience.

(g) That the prophecies may be accomplished.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

{4} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the {h} least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

(4) He begins with the true expounding of the Law, and sets it against the old (but yet false) teachings of the scribes: He is in no way abolishing the least commandment of his Father.

(h) He shall have no place in the Church.



https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/matthew/5.htm

Gill's Exposition

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets,.... From verse 3 to the 10th inclusive, our Lord seems chiefly to respect the whole body of his true disciples and followers; from thence, to the 16th inclusive, he addresses the disciples, whom he had called to be ministers of the word; and in this "verse", to the end of his discourse, he applies himself to the whole multitude in general; many of whom might be ready to imagine, that by the light of the Gospel, he was giving his disciples instructions to spread in the world, he was going to set aside, as useless, the law of Moses, or the prophets, the interpreters of it, and commentators upon it. Christ knew the thoughts of their hearts, that they had taken up such prejudices in their minds against him; wherefore he says, "think not"; he was sensible what objections they were forming, and what an improvement they would make of them against his being the Messiah, and therefore prevents them, saying,

I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. By "the law" is meant the moral law, as appears from the whole discourse following: this he came not to "destroy", or loose men's obligations to, as a rule of walk and conversation, but "to fulfil" it; which he did doctrinally, by setting it forth fully, and giving the true sense and meaning of it; and practically, by yielding perfect obedience to all its commands, whereby he became "the end", the fulfilling end of it. By "the prophets" are meant the writings of the prophets, in which they illustrated and explained the law of Moses; urged the duties of it; encouraged men thereunto by promises; and directed the people to the Messiah, and to an expectation of the blessings of grace by him: all which explanations, promises, and prophecies, were so far from being made void by Christ, that they receive their full accomplishment in him. The Jews (t) pretend that these words of Christ are contrary to the religion and faith of his followers, who assert, that the law of Moses is abolished; which is easily refuted, by observing the exact agreement between Christ and the Apostle Paul, Romans 3:31 and whenever he, or any other of the apostles, speaks of the abrogation of the law, it is to be understood of the ceremonial law, which in course ceased by being fulfilled; or if of the moral law, not of the matter, but of the ministry of it. This passage of Christ is cited in the Talmud (u), after this manner:



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Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mt 5:17-48. Identity of These Principles with Those of the Ancient Economy; in Contrast with the Reigning Traditional Teaching.
Exposition of Principles (Mt 5:17-20).

17. Think not that I am come—that I came.

to destroy the law, or the prophets—that is, "the authority and principles of the Old Testament." (On the phrase, see Mt 7:12; 22:40; Lu 16:16; Ac 13:15). This general way of taking the phrase is much better than understanding "the law" and "the prophets" separately, and inquiring, as many good critics do, in what sense our Lord could be supposed to meditate the subversion of each. To the various classes of His hearers, who might view such supposed abrogation of the law and the prophets with very different feelings, our Lord's announcement would, in effect, be such as this—"Ye who tremble at the word of the Lord, fear not that I am going to sweep the foundation from under your feet: Ye restless and revolutionary spirits, hope not that I am going to head any revolutionary movement: And ye who hypocritically affect great reverence for the law and the prophets, pretend not to find anything in My teaching derogatory to God's living oracles."

I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil—Not to subvert, abrogate, or annul, but to establish the law and the prophets—to unfold them, to embody them in living form, and to enshrine them in the reverence, affection, and character of men, am I come.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

18. For verily I say unto you—Here, for the first time, does that august expression occur in our Lord's recorded teaching, with which we have grown so familiar as hardly to reflect on its full import. It is the expression manifestly, of supreme legislative authority; and as the subject in connection with which it is uttered is the Moral Law, no higher claim to an authority strictly divine could be advanced. For when we observe how jealously Jehovah asserts it as His exclusive prerogative to give law to men (Le 18:1-5; 19:37; 26:1-4, 13-16, &c.), such language as this of our Lord will appear totally unsuitable, and indeed abhorrent, from any creature lips. When the Baptist's words—"I say unto you" (Mt 3:9)—are compared with those of his Master here, the difference of the two cases will be at once apparent.

Till heaven and earth pass—Though even the Old Testament announces the ultimate "perdition of the heavens and the earth," in contrast with the immutability of Jehovah (Ps 102:24-27), the prevalent representation of the heavens and the earth in Scripture, when employed as a popular figure, is that of their stability (Ps 119:89-91; Ec 1:4; Jer 33:25, 26). It is the enduring stability, then, of the great truths and principles, moral and spiritual, of the Old Testament revelation which our Lord thus expresses.

one jot—the smallest of the Hebrew letters.

one tittle—one of those little strokes by which alone some of the Hebrew letters are distinguished from others like them.

shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled—The meaning is that "not so much as the smallest loss of authority or vitality shall ever come over the law." The expression, "till all be fulfilled," is much the same in meaning as "it shall be had in undiminished and enduring honor, from its greatest to its least requirements." Again, this general way of viewing our Lord's words here seems far preferable to that doctrinal understanding of them which would require us to determine the different kinds of "fulfilment" which the moral and the ceremonial parts of it were to have.


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William Kelly Major Works Commentary

In the portion that follows we enter upon a most important subject. If there was this new kind of blessedness, so foreign to the thoughts of Israel after the flesh, what was the relation of the law to Christ's doctrine and the new state of things about to be introduced? Did not the law come from God through Moses? If Christ brought in that which was so unexpected, even by the disciples, what would be the bearing of this truth upon that which they had previously received through God's inspired servants, and for which they had His own authority? Weaken the authority of the law, and it is clear that you destroy the foundation on which the gospel rests; for the law was of God as certainly as the gospel. Hence came in a most weighty question, especially for an Israelite: what was the bearing of the doctrine of Christ, respecting the kingdom of heaven, upon the precepts of the law? The Lord opens this subject (vers. 17-48) with these words: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets." They might have thought so from the fact of His having introduced something not mentioned in either; but "Think not," He says, "that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." I take this word "fulfil" in its largest sense. In His own person the Lord fulfilled the law and the prophets, in His own ways, in righteous subjection and obedience. His life here below exhibited its beauty for the first time without flaw. His death was the most solemn sanction which the law ever could receive, because the curse that it pronounced upon the guilty, the Saviour took upon Himself. There was nothing the Saviour would not undergo, rather than God should have dishonour. But our Lord's words warrant, I think, a further application. There is an expansion of the law, or δικαίωμα (righteous requirement), giving to its moral element the largest scope, so that all which was honouring to God in it should be brought out in its fullest power and extent. The light of heaven was now let fall upon the law, and the law interpreted, not by weak, failing men, but by One who had no reason to evade one jot of its requirements; whose heart, full of love, thought only of the honour and the will of God; whose zeal for His Father's house consumed Him, and who restored that which He took not away. Who but He could expound the law thus - not as the scribes, but in the heavenly light? For the commandment of God is exceeding broad, whether we look at its making an end of all perfection in man, or the sum of it in Christ.

Far from annulling the law, the Lord, on the contrary, illustrated it more brightly than ever, and gave it a spiritual application that man was entirely unprepared for before He came. And this is what the Lord proceeds to do in the wonderful discourse that follows. After having said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled," He adds, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (vers. 18-20). Our Lord is going to expand the great moral principles of the law into commandments that flow from Himself, and not merely from Moses, and shows that this would be the great thing whereby persons would be tested. It would no longer be a question of the ten words spoken on Sinai merely; but, while recognizing their full value, He was about to open out the mind of God in a way so much deeper than had ever been thought of before that this would henceforth be the great test.

Hence He says, when referring to the practical use of these commandments of His, "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" - an expression that has not the smallest reference to justification, but to the practical appreciation of and walking in the right relations of the believer toward God and toward men. The righteousness spoken of here is entirely of a practical kind. This may strike many persons sharply, perhaps. They may be somewhat perplexed to understand how practical righteousness is made to be the means of entering into the kingdom of heaven. But, let me repeat, the sermon on the mount never shows us how a sinner is to be saved. If there were the smallest allusion to practical righteousness where a sinner's justification is concerned, there would be ground to be startled; but there can be none whatever for the saint who understands and is subject to God's will. God insists upon godliness in His people. ,Without holiness no man shall seethe Lord." There can be no question that the Lord shows in John 15 that the unfruitful branches must be cut off, and that, just as the withered branches of the natural vine are cast into the fire to be burned, so fruitless professors of the name of Christ can look for no better portion.


https://biblehub.com/commentaries/lange/matthew/5.htm

Lange Commentary on the Holy Scriptures

....................................................

But to fulfil, ἀλλὰ πληρῶσαι.—The expression is differently interpreted, as meaning: 1. actually to fulfil (Elsner, Wolf, Bleek, and others); 2. to complete doctrinally, = τελειῶσαι, to interpret more fully, to perfect, i.e., to bring out its spiritual meaning (Lightfoot, Hammond, etc.); 3. combining the two views: to make perfect as doctrine, and to exhibit perfectly in the life. In adopting the latter interpretation, we must keep in mind that this πλήρωσις is not to be understood as implying that an imperfect revelation was to be completed, but that a preliminary and typical revelation was to be presented in all its fulness, and completely realized by word and deed. [Dr. Wordsworth: "Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets by obedience, by accomplishment of types, ceremonies, rites, and prophecies, and by explaining, spiritualizing, elevating, enlarging, and perfecting the moral law, by writing it on the heart, and by giving grace to obey it, as well as an example of obedience, by taking away its curse; and by the doctrine of free justification by faith in Himself, which the law prefigured and anticipated, but could not give." Augustine: "Ante Christi adventum lex jubebat, non juvabat; post, et jubet et juvat." Maldonatus: "Abolet non dissolvendo sed absolvendo, non delendo sed perficiendo."—P. S.]


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Matthew Henry's Commentary

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:17-20 Let none suppose that Christ allows his people to trifle with any commands of God's holy law. No sinner partakes of Christ's justifying righteousness, till he repents of his evil deeds. The mercy revealed in the gospel leads the believer to still deeper self-abhorrence. The law is the Christian's rule of duty, and he delights therein. If a man, pretending to be Christ's disciple, encourages himself in any allowed disobedience to the holy law of God, or teaches others to do the same, whatever his station or reputation among men may be, he can be no true disciple. Christ's righteousness, imputed to us by faith alone, is needed by every one that enters the kingdom of grace or of glory; but the new creation of the heart to holiness, produces a thorough change in a man's temper and conduct.



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Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Verses 17-20

Those to whom Christ preached, and for whose use he gave these instructions to his disciples, were such as in their religion had an eye, 1. To the scriptures of the Old Testament as their rule, and therein Christ here shows them they were in the right: 2. To the scribes and the Pharisees as their example, and therein Christ here shows them they were in the wrong; for,

I. The rule which Christ came to establish exactly agreed with the scriptures of the Old Testament, here called the law and the prophets. The prophets were commentators upon the law, and both together made up that rule of faith and practice which Christ found upon the throne in the Jewish church, and here he keeps it on the throne.

He protests against the thought of cancelling and weakening the Old Testament; Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets. (1.) "Let not the pious Jews, who have an affection for the law and the prophets, fear that I come to destroy them." Let them be not prejudiced against Christ and his doctrine, from a jealousy that this kingdom he came to set up, would derogate from the honour of the scriptures, which they had embraced as coming from God, and of which they had experienced the power and purity; no, let them be satisfied that Christ has no ill design upon the law and the prophets. "Let not the profane Jews, who have a disaffection to the law and the prophets, and are weary of that yoke, hope that I am come to destroy them." Let not carnal libertines imagine that the Messiah is come to discharge them from the obligation of divine precepts and yet to secure to them divine promises, to make the happy and yet to give them leave to live as they list. Christ commands nothing now which was forbidden either by the law of nature or the moral law, nor forbids any thing which those laws had enjoined; it is a great mistake to think he does, and he here takes care to rectify the mistake; I am not come to destroy. The Saviour of souls is the destroyer of nothing but the works of the devil, of nothing that comes from God, much less of those excellent dictates which we have from Moses and the prophets. No, he came to fulfil them. That is, [1.] To obey the commands of the law, for he was made under the law, Gal. 4:4. He in all respects yielded obedience to the law, honoured his parents, sanctified the sabbath, prayed, gave alms, and did that which never any one else did, obeyed perfectly, and never broke the law in any thing. [2.] To make good the promises of the law, and the predictions of the prophets, which did all bear witness to him. The covenant of grace is, for substance, the same now that it was then, and Christ the Mediator of it. [3.] To answer the types of the law; thus (as bishop Tillotson expresses it), he did not make void, but make good, the ceremonial law, and manifested himself to be the Substance of all those shadows. [4.] To fill up the defects of it, and so to complete and perfect it. Thus the word pleµroµsai properly signifies. If we consider the law as a vessel that had some water in it before, he did not come to pour out the water, but to fill the vessel up to the brim; or, as a picture that is first rough-drawn, displays some outlines only of the piece intended, which are afterwards filled up; so Christ made an improvement of the law and the prophets by his additions and explications. [5.] To carry on the same design; the Christian institutes are so far from thwarting and contradicting that which was the main design of the Jewish religion, that they promote it to the highest degree. The gospel is the time of reformation (Heb. 9:10), not the repeal of the law, but the amendment of it, and, consequently, its establishment.

2. He asserts the perpetuity of it; that not only he designed not the abrogation of it, but that it never should be abrogated (v. 18); "Verily I say unto you, I, the Amen, the faithful Witness, solemnly declare it, that till heaven and earth pass, when time shall be no more, and the unchangeable state of recompences shall supersede all laws, one jot, or one tittle, the least and most minute circumstance, shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled;" for what is it that God is doing in all the operations both of providence and grace, but fulfilling the scripture? Heaven and earth shall come together, and all the fulness thereof be wrapped up in ruin and confusion, rather than any word of God shall fall to the ground, or be in vain. The word of the Lord endures for ever, both that of the law, and that of the gospel. Observe, The care of God concerning his law extends itself even to those things that seem to be of least account in it, the iotas and the tittles; for whatever belongs to God, and bears his stamp, be it ever so little, shall be preserved. The laws of men are conscious to themselves of so much imperfection, that they allow it for a maxim, Apices juris non sunt jura—The extreme points of the law are not the law, but God will stand by and maintain every iota and every tittle of his law.

3. He gives it in charge to his disciples, carefully to preserve the law, and shows them the danger of the neglect and contempt of it (v. 19); Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least commandments of the law of Moses, much more any of the greater, as the Pharisees did, who neglected the weightier matters of the law, and shall teach men so as they did, who made void the commandment of God with their traditions (ch. 15:3), he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Though the Pharisees be cried up for such teachers as should be, they shall not be employed as teachers in Christ's kingdom; but whosoever shall do and teach them, as Christ's disciples would, and thereby prove themselves better friends to the Old Testament than the Pharisees were, they, though despised by men, shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Note, (1.) Among the commands of God there are some less than others; none absolutely little, but comparatively so. The Jews reckon the least of the commandments of the law to be that of the bird's nest (Deu. 22:6, 7); yet even that had a significance and an intention very great and considerable. (2.) It is a dangerous thing, in doctrine or practice, to disannul the least of God's commands; to break them, that is, to go about either to contract the extent, or weaken the obligation of them; whoever does so, will find it is at his peril. Thus to vacate any of the ten commandments, is too bold a stroke for the jealous God to pass by. it is something more than transgressing the law, it is making void the law, Ps. 119:126. (3.) That the further such corruptions as they spread, the worse they are. It is impudence enough to break the command, but is a greater degree of it to teach men so. This plainly refers to those who at this time sat in Moses' seat, and by their comments corrupted and perverted the text. Opinions that tend to the destruction of serious godliness and the vitals of religion, by corrupt glosses on the scripture, are bad when they are held, but worse when they are propagated and taught, as the word of God. He that does so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, in the kingdom of glory; he shall never come thither, but be eternally excluded; or, rather, in the kingdom of the gospel-church. He is so far from deserving the dignity of a teacher in it, that he shall not so much as be accounted a member of it. The prophet that teaches these lies shall be the tail in that kingdom (Isa. 9:15); when truth shall appear in its own evidence, such corrupt teachers, though cried up as the Pharisees, shall be of no account with the wise and good. Nothing makes ministers more contemptible and base than corrupting the law, Mal. 2:8, 11. Those who extenuate and encourage sin, and discountenance and put contempt upon strictness in religion and serious devotion, are the dregs of the church. But, on the other hand, Those are truly honourable, and of great account in the church of Christ, who lay out themselves by their life and doctrine to promote the purity and strictness of practical religion; who both do and teach that which is good; for those who do not as they teach, pull down with one hand what they build up with the other, and give themselves the lie, and tempt men to think that all religion is a delusion; but those who speak from experience, who live up to what they preach, are truly great; they honour God, and God will honour them (1 Sa. 2:30), and hereafter they shall shine as the stars in the kingdom of our Father.

II. The righteousness which Christ came to establish by this rule, must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, v. 20. This was strange doctrine to those who looked upon the scribes and Pharisees as having arrived at the highest pitch of religion. The scribes were the most noted teachers of the law, and the Pharisees the most celebrated professors of it, and they both sat in Moses' chair (ch. 23:2), and had such a reputation among the people, that they were looked upon as super-conformable to the law, and people did not think themselves obliged to be as good as they; it was therefore a great surprise to them, to hear that they must be better than they, or they should not go to heaven; and therefore Christ here avers it with solemnity; I say unto you, It is so. The scribes and Pharisees were enemies to Christ and his doctrine, and were great oppressors; and yet it must be owned, that there was something commendable in them. They were much in fasting and prayer, and giving of alms; they were punctual in observing the ceremonial appointments, and made it their business to teach others; they had such an interest in the people that they ought, if but two men went to heaven, one would be a Pharisee; and yet our Lord Jesus here tells his disciples, that the religion he came to establish, did not only exclude the badness, but excel the goodness, of the scribes and Pharisees. We must do more than they, and better than they, or we shall come short of heaven. They were partial in the law, and laid most stress upon the ritual part of it; but we must be universal, and not think it enough to give the priest his tithe, but must give God our hearts. They minded only the outside, but we must make conscience of inside godliness. They aimed at the praise and applause of men, but we must aim at acceptance with God: they were proud of what they did in religion, and trusted to it as a righteousness; but we, when we have done all, must deny ourselves, and say, We are unprofitable servants, and trust only to the righteousness of Christ; and thus we may go beyond the scribes and Pharisees.


https://biblehub.com/commentaries/poole/matthew/5.htm

Matthew Poole's Commentary

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

...............................................................

to fulfil it. It is manifest, by his following discourse, that he principally spake of the moral law, though he also fulfilled the ceremonial law, he being the Antitype in whom all the types of that had their complement, and real fulfilling and accomplishment. Saith he, I am not come to destroy and put an end to the moral law. I am come to fulfil it: not to fill it up, as papists and Socinians contend, adding any new precept to it; but by yielding myself a personal obedience to it, by giving a fuller and stricter interpretation of it than you have formerly had, and by taking the curse of it (so far as concerneth my disciples) upon myself, and giving a just satisfaction to Divine justice for it. The greatest objection urged against Christ destroying part of the law, and adding new precepts to the moral law, is that about the change of the sabbath; but this is none, if we consider that the moral law required no more than one day of seven to be kept as a day of holy rest, not this or that particular day; for the particular day, the Jews learned it from the ceremonial law, as Christians learn theirs from Christ's and the apostles' practice. Nor is it any objection against this, that the seventh day from the creation is mentioned in the law, to those who know how to distinguish between the precept and the argument; the seventh from the creation is not in the precept, but in the argument, For in six days, & c. Now there is nothing more ordinary than to have arguments of a particular temporary concernment used to enforce precepts of an eternal obligation, where the precepts were first given to that particular people, as to whom those arguments were of force, an instance of which is in the first commandment, as well as in this: as, on the other side, arguments of universal force are oft annexed to precepts, which had but a particular obligation upon a particular people for a time. Thus in the ceremonial law, we often find it is an argument to enforce many ceremonial precepts, For I am the Lord thy God.

The above commentary does not even support the seventh day Sabbath, but still understands the verses under examination to be primarily about the moral law.


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Wesley's Notes on the Bible

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:17 Think not - Do not imagine, fear, hope, that I am come - Like your teachers, to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy - The moral law, but to fulfil - To establish, illustrate, and explain its highest meaning, both by my life and doctrine.
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:18 Till all things shall be effected - Which it either requires or foretells. For the law has its effect, when the rewards are given, and the punishments annexed to it inflicted, as well as when its precepts are obeyed. Luke 16:17; 21:33.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
5:19 One of the least - So accounted by men; and shall teach - Either by word or example; shall be the least - That is, shall have no part therein.

Apparently your claim that all would laugh at my views does not apply to the authors of the above commentaries, and a great many more I presume.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Beam:
if the old covenant laws are still part of how man is supposed to live then please tell me and all who believe as I do why you do not do all that the old covenant laws demand.  Remember Jesus said: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.   Tell us how you get around Jesus words.  Are you able to see the word "all"?   Before you can delete any part of the law before all is fulfilled is certainly a sin if you believe as you do.   You are not allowed to pick and choose.

Jesus didn't come to take away the law, He came to save Jews who were condemned by the law.   Jesus proved to the World that the law could be kept.  He fulfilled the law and fulfilled means to bring to an end.

"From my very soul, I detest everything that in the least savors of the Antinomianism which leads people to prate about being secure in Christ while they are living in sin. [[GE: and "sin is the transgression of the Law" whichever of God]] We cannot be saved by or for our good works, neither can we be saved without good works. Christ never will save any of His people in their sins; He saves His people from their sins. If a man is not desiring to live a holy life in the sight of God, with the help of the Holy Spirit, he is still " in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity." - C.H.Spurgeon

[[GE: "The Law...whichever...was introduced because of sin" whatever sin.]]

[current occupant2]

And I thought that the Bible tells us to PROCLAIM CHRIST MORE FULLY. 

Proclaim the reality - the shadow is nothing!!!!

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

CO2:
And I thought that the Bible tells us to PROCLAIM CHRIST MORE FULLY. 

Proclaim the reality - the shadow is nothing!!!!

Not the shadow of Christ. Until He returns all we can see of Him is the shadow of Christ who is the Substance and Light beaming down so his followers can follow Him not blind but seeing; and can rest assured He lives, because they can observe his heavenly movement, the shadow of the Almighty shielding while leading them on earth through time towards The Lord's Day and of His Coming Again to in it triumph, victorious!

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

'New Covenant Christianity' that demands 'accepting Jesus as one's saviour' means 'the Spirit-led' rejects and abhors "a Sabbath Day of rest remaining valid for the People of God", is nothing but satanic deception and delusion.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

The one thing worse than the antinomian is the anticharisian. "Because of sin the Law was added so that sin should be sin even more; but where sin increased because of the Law, grace over-abundantly abounded."

[current occupant2]

'New Covenant Christianity' that demands 'accepting Jesus as one's saviour' means 'the Spirit-led' rejects and abhors "a Sabbath Day of rest remaining valid for the People of God", is nothing but satanic deception and delusion.

There you go—-  Gerhart —- diving for the bottom of the class again. 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

CO2:
There you go—-  Gerhart —- diving for the bottom of the class again.

De-ja vu...

Thank you for your post although I already have all the many invariably the same content posts from you to me, and dived as I might for content other than the mug, I dived in vain. You did not know I am a professional crap, mug and mire diver?

[current occupant2]

De-ja vu...

Thank you for your post although I already have all the many invariably the same content posts from you to me, and dived as I might for content other than the mug, I dived without success. You did not know I am a professional crap and mug diver?

Puny words from the partially proficient such as yourself, Shubee, Amo and Hobie do not change the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

None of you are any different from the other three.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Beam:
Continue in your orgy of pseudo-spirituality with the other 3 partially proficient apprentice prophets in training. 

You can continue to slap each other on the back in congratulations or in consolement - hard to say which it is...

Answer my questions, phoney.

[current occupant2]

Answer my questions, phoney.

What is composed by the partially proficient such as yourself is not a real question - so it is not necessary to reply to it.

[Hobie]

Amo, if the old covenant laws are still part of how man is supposed to live then please tell me and all who believe as I do why you do not do all that the old covenant laws demand.  Remember Jesus said: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.   Tell us how you get around Jesus words.  Are you able to see the word "all"?   Before you can delete any part of the law before all is fulfilled is certainly a sin if you believe as you do.   You are not allowed to pick and choose.

Jesus didn't come to take away the law, He came to save Jews who were condemned by the law.   Jesus proved to the World that the law could be kept.  He fulfilled the law and fulfilled means to bring to an end.

So now we can kill and steal and commit adultery with abandon, I see a slight problem....

[current occupant2]

So now we can kill and steal and commit adultery with abandon, I see a slight problem....

There in lies your problem - as one of the partially proficient.... 

when you become proficient in reading your Bible then you will have no problem with killing and stealing and committing adultery with abandon - as you do now.  All that desire YOU have for those things now will be gone and you won't need the Law to tell you that you are doing wrong. 

[beam]

beam -
Jesus did not come to fulfill the civil laws of the literal nation of Israel, many of which have no salvific or spiritual implications. Apart from this, He and the apostles plainly taught that there would be and were major changes concerning the ceremonial laws being fulfilled in our Lord and Savior. They were not simply done away with, but rather established in Christ Jesus, just as the ten commandments are. If you want to insist that Jesus was talking about 613 laws, including those specifically pointed out by Jesus and the apostles as having changed, then you should be keeping all of them. That is your claim not mine.

I can an do accept that Jesus Christ came to fulfill all the law and the prophets just as He testified, that fulfillment did bring about changes, properly understanding what those changes were includes properly dividing the word of God in regards to the same. This is a large part of what the NT is all about. The facts remain, He conclusively stated that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. That fulfillment included changes to the ceremonial laws clearly explained by Christ and the apostles. The commandments of God however, are held up as the continuous standard up to the last book ad chapter of the bible.

Perhaps the following quotes form various commentaries can help you with this issue. Several of them contradict your above statement that all would laugh at the idea that Jesus was referring mainly to the moral law or ten commandments in the verses under examination. Even those addressing the entire law, do not share your perspective. All emphasis in the following quotes is mine.


Apparently your claim that all would laugh at my views does not apply to the authors of the above commentaries, and a great many more I presume.

Hi Amo,  I did not read word for word all the commentaries on verses 17 and 18, but I do know that probably not one of the authors observed the Sabbath command of the decalogue.  I agree with them as far as commandments dealing with morality have been and will be enforced and never ceased until Jesus comes again.  I have stated laws concerning morality are forever.   The nine moral laws of the 10 commandments are just the iceberg of moral issues facing man today.  There are many more sins equally as important as some of the nine.  The most important two are not even mentioned in the 10 commandments.  One is to LOVE God with all your heart and the next one is to LOVE your neighbor as yourself.

Every issue concerning our sinning against ourselves, our fellow man and God are part of Jesus new covenant, the covenant Christians are under.  The old covenant was broken and is no longer enforced, I don't care how many commentaries you present we are not under the laws of that covenant because it does not exist.  The only reason you try to make it exist is to reconcile your belief that man must observe the Sabbath ritual.  In 2Cor3:7-11 Paul writes that the 10 commandments were the ministry of death and have been done away. 1Cor 3:7-11  Argue your case and ignore Paul all you want, but that argument does not ring true.   Jesus kept the book of the law which contained 613 rules, some for the woman, some for men, and some for all the governing.  There is no indication in Matt 5:17-18 that He was referring to just parts of the 613 laws.  The writers of the commentaries certainly never hinted there was, they assumed He was referring to the 10 commandments I suppose.  If one would read further in those verses we will find out He was referring to some not found in the 10.

Jeremiah prophesied that the day would come that God would give Israel a new and better covenant and that had to happen while Jesus lived because it had to be ratified by His blood.  I proudly submit to you and all who read this post that Jesus fulfilled Jeremiah's prophecy and now all me are living under the new and better covenant.   And I submit to you that the old covenant with all its rituals like the Sabbaths have passed away.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

There in lies your problem - as one of the partially proficient.... 

when you become proficient in reading your Bible then you will have no problem with killing and stealing and committing adultery with abandon - as you do now.  All that desire YOU have for those things now will be gone and you won't need the Law to tell you that you are doing wrong.

No Scripture blah blah blah

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Hi Amo,  I did not read word for word all the commentaries on verses 17 and 18, but I do know that probably not one of the authors observed the Sabbath command of the decalogue.  I agree with them as far as commandments dealing with morality have been and will be enforced and never ceased until Jesus comes again.  I have stated laws concerning morality are forever.   The nine moral laws of the 10 commandments are just the iceberg of moral issues facing man today.  There are many more sins equally as important as some of the nine.  The most important two are not even mentioned in the 10 commandments.  One is to LOVE God with all your heart and the next one is to LOVE your neighbor as yourself.

Every issue concerning our sinning against ourselves, our fellow man and God are part of Jesus new covenant, the covenant Christians are under.  The old covenant was broken and is no longer enforced, I don't care how many commentaries you present we are not under the laws of that covenant because it does not exist.  The only reason you try to make it exist is to reconcile your belief that man must observe the Sabbath ritual.  In 2Cor3:7-11 Paul writes that the 10 commandments were the ministry of death and have been done away. 1Cor 3:7-11  Argue your case and ignore Paul all you want, but that argument does not ring true.   Jesus kept the book of the law which contained 613 rules, some for the woman, some for men, and some for all the governing.  There is no indication in Matt 5:17-18 that He was referring to just parts of the 613 laws.  The writers of the commentaries certainly never hinted there was, they assumed He was referring to the 10 commandments I suppose.  If one would read further in those verses we will find out He was referring to some not found in the 10.

Jeremiah prophesied that the day would come that God would give Israel a new and better covenant and that had to happen while Jesus lived because it had to be ratified by His blood.  I proudly submit to you and all who read this post that Jesus fulfilled Jeremiah's prophecy and now all me are living under the new and better covenant.   And I submit to you that the old covenant with all its rituals like the Sabbaths have passed away.

Aai aai I proudly Beam the witbors kraai hiervandaan na Mosselbaai

[beam]

So now we can kill and steal and commit adultery with abandon, I see a slight problem....

You have the Book?  You should read it sometime.  It is full of profound writings and wisdom.  It will make your statement seem foolish.

[Amo]

Hi Amo,  I did not read word for word all the commentaries on verses 17 and 18, but I do know that probably not one of the authors observed the Sabbath command of the decalogue.  I agree with them as far as commandments dealing with morality have been and will be enforced and never ceased until Jesus comes again.  I have stated laws concerning morality are forever.   The nine moral laws of the 10 commandments are just the iceberg of moral issues facing man today.  There are many more sins equally as important as some of the nine.  The most important two are not even mentioned in the 10 commandments.  One is to LOVE God with all your heart and the next one is to LOVE your neighbor as yourself.

Every issue concerning our sinning against ourselves, our fellow man and God are part of Jesus new covenant, the covenant Christians are under.  The old covenant was broken and is no longer enforced, I don't care how many commentaries you present we are not under the laws of that covenant because it does not exist.  The only reason you try to make it exist is to reconcile your belief that man must observe the Sabbath ritual.  In 2Cor3:7-11 Paul writes that the 10 commandments were the ministry of death and have been done away. 1Cor 3:7-11  Argue your case and ignore Paul all you want, but that argument does not ring true.   Jesus kept the book of the law which contained 613 rules, some for the woman, some for men, and some for all the governing.  There is no indication in Matt 5:17-18 that He was referring to just parts of the 613 laws.  The writers of the commentaries certainly never hinted there was, they assumed He was referring to the 10 commandments I suppose.  If one would read further in those verses we will find out He was referring to some not found in the 10.

Jeremiah prophesied that the day would come that God would give Israel a new and better covenant and that had to happen while Jesus lived because it had to be ratified by His blood.  I proudly submit to you and all who read this post that Jesus fulfilled Jeremiah's prophecy and now all me are living under the new and better covenant.   And I submit to you that the old covenant with all its rituals like the Sabbaths have passed away.

You said -

To try to prove He was just referring to the 10 is ludicrous and would be laughed at if you presented that to scholars of scripture.

You were wrong, get over it.

If you insist that Jesus was talking about 613 laws, then so be it, obey all those laws or reject His testimony. Do as you wish.

The two laws you say aren't there are a summary of the ten, and were given during the old covenant to Israel as well. Shall I quote scripture and many a commentary for you concerning the same?

They are the ten commandments, not the nine commandments. Fallen humanity rejecting one of the ten commandments will never make them nine commandments but in their own twisted minds. Try as they may, they will not, and cannot change God's word. To the contrary, all will be judged by those words.

I'm pretty sure none of the commentators I quoted supported still keeping God's Sabbath. I know Calvin did not. Like you he chose to pluck the fourth right out of the middle of the rest and claim it was ceremonial, not moral. This changes nothing. I do not worship Calvin or place him above scripture. The testimony of scripture is clear enough.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

[beam]

You said - To try to prove He was just referring to the 10 is ludicrous and would be laughed at if you presented that to scholars of scripture.

You were wrong, get over it.

Refresh my mind, Amo.  Did you present an argument that proves there should be a 10 before commandments in any of the passages where it just written "commandments"?

If you insist that Jesus was talking about 613 laws, then so be it, obey all those laws or reject His testimony. Do as you wish.

Have you presented any facts to the contrary?   I believe Jesus, He fulfilled the old covenant and gave us a new and better covenant.  Fulfill means to bring to an end, Amo.  Jesus ended the old when He brought on the new.  Simple isn't it.

The two laws you say aren't there are a summary of the ten,

That is a thoughtless statement, Amo, one a parrot would udder.   The 10 commandments had nothing to do with love, they were all about duty.  You have been reading too much Ellen stuff.

and were given during the old covenant to Israel as well. Shall I quote scripture and many a commentary for you concerning the same?

Oh, you mean the ones that your prophet said were eliminated when questioned about Col 2.  I know right where the commands are and your quotes from commentaries mean nothing to me.

They are the ten commandments, not the nine commandments. Fallen humanity rejecting one of the ten commandments will never make them nine commandments but in their own twisted minds. Try as they may, they will not, and cannot change God's word. To the contrary, all will be judged by those words.

I'm pretty sure none of the commentators I quoted supported still keeping God's Sabbath.

Or ever did

I know Calvin did not. Like you he chose to pluck the fourth right out of the middle of the rest and claim it was ceremonial, not moral.

Well, he was completely correct. Moral laws deal with how we treat God, our fellow men and ourselves.  Morality laws are also how we treat animals.  They are people and animal laws.  Sabbath does not fit the description, does it?  The weekly Sabbath was like all the other Sabbaths, ceremonial or ritual.

This changes nothing. I do not worship Calvin or place him above scripture. The testimony of scripture is clear enough.

Well, not quite enough for SDAs right?  Ellen fits in there someplace right?

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

So, are you seriously keeping all of the old covenant Jesus was referring?   You just quoted the 10 below, but may I remind you that there were 613 laws that Israel had to deal with and according to what you wrote are part of what Christians have to live by.  Seems like you engaged fingers before brain.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Yes, those are the ones in toto that Paul wrote about in 2Cor3:7-11.  What did he say about them?  Oh yes, he said they were done away.  KJV  Read it for yourself there in verse 11.  Why could Paul tell us they are done away?   He could tell us that because Jesus fulfilled the old covenant.

So you see, Amo that is why there is no 10 before commandments in all of the New Testament.  1Jn3:19-24 testifies to all the other facts.  Are you going to continue putting your trust in Ellen's books or trust in the Holy Writ?

[Amo]

Refresh my mind, Amo.  Did you present an argument that proves there should be a 10 before commandments in any of the passages where it just written "commandments"?

Stop trying to dodge and evade. You said anyone would laugh at the idea that Jesus was talking mainly about the ten commandments known as the moral law in Mt 5:17-19 and you were wrong.

Have you presented any facts to the contrary?   I believe Jesus, He fulfilled the old covenant and gave us a new and better covenant.  Fulfill means to bring to an end, Amo.  Jesus ended the old when He brought on the new.  Simple isn't it.

Yes typing a few sentences as you did above is fairly simple. Making Mt 5:17-19 mean what you said above is not simple or correct. He said a lot more than you are addressing or allowing for. Observe -

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You left all of the above out. You did so because it does not suggest what you have above. It specifically states tat the law will not change till all be fulfilled which will not happen until heaven and earth pass. It then specifically states that anyone who breaks or teaches the breaking of any of the commandments will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. You may choose to ignore certain parts of our Lord and Saviors testimonies in order to support your own personal views you wish, and call it simple, but I and many others think this very unwise. Even extremely unhealthy.

That is a thoughtless statement, Amo, one a parrot would udder.   The 10 commandments had nothing to do with love, they were all about duty.  You have been reading too much Ellen stuff.

I guess when one chooses deception, they do not realize the blindness they have imposed upon themselves. Do you really think EGW came up with that?

Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

How could the ten commandments hang upon something they have nothing to do with?

1 Joh 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 Joh 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Perhaps you calling my statement thoughtless, was a thoughtless statement.

Oh, you mean the ones that your prophet said were eliminated when questioned about Col 2.  I know right where the commands are and your quotes from commentaries mean nothing to me.

Yes I know, some scripture means nothing to you, and EGW invented everything many others said before her id she said it as well.

Well, he was completely correct. Moral laws deal with how we treat God, our fellow men and ourselves.  Morality laws are also how we treat animals.  They are people and animal laws.  Sabbath does not fit the description, does it?  The weekly Sabbath was like all the other Sabbaths, ceremonial or ritual.

The Sabbath predates both moral and ceremonial law. It was established before sin existed when there was no need for any ceremonial law, and scripture states that it will be kept after sin is no more. Would you please explain how the ten commandments are ceremonial laws, and if not, then how just the fourth commandment is? That you.

Well, not quite enough for SDAs right?  Ellen fits in there someplace right?

Negative. Perhaps you are projecting your own worship of EGW upon me because this is what you did when an SDA, but I do not. I don't worship any but God.

So, are you seriously keeping all of the old covenant Jesus was referring?   You just quoted the 10 below, but may I remind you that there were 613 laws that Israel had to deal with and according to what you wrote are part of what Christians have to live by.  Seems like you engaged fingers before brain.

I have never said Christians have to keep 613 laws given to Israel, this is what you say. I've never said it, and scripture says it nowhere. Jesus and the Apostles made it abundantly clear that much of the law has been fulfilled and or therefore changed as well. You insist that if the ten should still be kept, then all the others must be as well, not I or scripture. It is your creation not mine, you own it. You try to impose it upon me, but I will continue to refuse it. So be it.

Yes, those are the ones in toto that Paul wrote about in 2Cor3:7-11.  What did he say about them?  Oh yes, he said they were done away.  KJV  Read it for yourself there in verse 11.  Why could Paul tell us they are done away?   He could tell us that because Jesus fulfilled the old covenant.

2 For 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

The scriptures themsleves tell you what was abolished, you simply choose to believe it was the ten commandments, and by so doing make the Apostle Paul blatantly contradict his own testimony. The death penalty of the law is abolished in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for the saved, not the authority of God's commandments. this is the truth which you refuse, which makes you blind.

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1 For 7:18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to [a]become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was [when he was] called.(AMP)

So you see, Amo that is why there is no 10 before commandments in all of the New Testament.  1Jn3:19-24 testifies to all the other facts.  Are you going to continue putting your trust in Ellen's books or trust in the Holy Writ?

I do trust in the Holy Writ, so did EGW. We both trust and trusted more in our understanding of Holy Writ, than your twisted views regarding the same. I also trust her views far more than yours, being that they are far more grounded in the entirety of scripture than your own very scripturally selective brand. 1 Joh 3:19-24 is truth. The spin you place upon it, is not.