Perfection, when will we achieve it?

[Hobie]

Perfection is back to the state that Adam was created, without sin yet with free will choice, the perfection which Jesus as flesh has shown us......

Many have argued against perfection, but yet everyone knows that mans carnal imperfection or sin will not be let into heaven. So how is this 'Gordian Knot' to be resolved?

[Shubee]

Perfection, when will we achieve it?

Sanctimonious enablers of genocide will never achieve perfection.

Many have argued against perfection, but yet everyone knows that mans carnal imperfection or sin will not be let into heaven. So how is this 'Gordian Knot' to be resolved?

Sinners must believe the gospel.

[RB]

Perfection is back to the state that Adam was created,

Believers have something so much better than what Adam had~we have the very righteousness of the Son of God, the second Adam. He have a new man that cannot sin!

1st John 3:9~"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Perfection, when will we achieve it?

Of ourselves we cannot, Jesus Christ achieved this for his elect~in his life of perfect obedience. SDA do not teach this acording to the scriptures~They have embraced another gospel from their false prophetess that bewitch them in her days and still doing so by her writings. 

[Hobie]

Believers have something so much better than what Adam had~we have the very righteousness of the Son of God, the second Adam. He have a new man that cannot sin! Of ourselves we cannot, Jesus Christ achieved this for his elect~in his life of perfect obedience. SDA do not teach this acording to the scriptures~They have embraced another gospel from their false prophetess that bewitch them in her days and still doing so by her writings.

You still have to overcome iniquity with Christ help, no sinners will get to heaven that is clear.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21.

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."Revelation 21:7.

[soterion]

You still have to overcome iniquity with Christ help, no sinners will get to heaven that is clear.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21.

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."Revelation 21:7.

Both Rev 3:21 and 21:7 describe the here and now for those in Christ.

Ephesians 2:6 tells us that when we were saved we were made to sit with Christ in the heavenlies. Since He is now on the throne (Acts 2:29-36) and since He hands the kingdom over to the Father upon His return (1 Cor 15:23-28), any sitting on the throne with Christ takes place in this life, before He returns. In addition, we are presently His children and He is our God, and so we are recipients of all blessings He has to offer.

I would also suggest that Edenic innocence and glory has been restored in Christ (Hebrews 2:5-10). In Christ is restored fellowship with God and the crown of glory and honor that was lost due to sin.

Thus, if this is your definition of perfection, then it is now a reality for those in Christ. If you are referring to perfection of behavior...sinlessness in all thought, word, and action, then not in this life. If you are referring to perfection of status with God, then yes, but only in Christ.

[AVZ]

Perfection is back to the state that Adam was created, without sin yet with free will choice, the perfection which Jesus as flesh has shown us......

Many have argued against perfection, but yet everyone knows that mans carnal imperfection or sin will not be let into heaven. So how is this 'Gordian Knot' to be resolved?

Scripture never says that Adam was created perfect

[Shubee]

Scripture never says that Adam was created perfect

So you don't believe that there's a fall of man narrative in Scripture?

[AVZ]

So you don't believe that there's a fall of man narrative in Scripture?

Sure there is, but scripture never claims that man fell from a perfect state.
The term perfect as ascribed to man is relative. God is perfect and man is less than God, hence man cannot be perfect.

Perfection can also not mean "going back to Adam's state".
We know that in heaven there will be no sin, and we are unable to sin.
If that is the standard of being perfect, than Adam's state and environment could not have been perfect.

[beam]

Sure there is, but scripture never claims that man fell from a perfect state.
The term perfect as ascribed to man is relative. God is perfect and man is less than God, hence man cannot be perfect.

Perfection can also not mean "going back to Adam's state".
We know that in heaven there will be no sin, and we are unable to sin.
If that is the standard of being perfect, than Adam's state and environment could not have been perfect.

I agree with you.  Man has always depended on God for life.  God sustains us.  If man were truly perfect even before sin Adam wouldn't have depended on anything for his existence.  If that were not true we would be as God because perfection would not allow Satan to tempt us into submission and we wouldn't be dependant on God for even the air we breathe.   Had God made everything perfect Adam and Eve wouldn't have submitted to Satan.   The tree of good and evil certainly was not perfect.  Perfection is relative.

[Shubee]

Scripture never claims that man fell from a perfect state.

Which godless assembly do you represent? I'm sure that I and many others would like to avoid worshiping with you and your ilk at all costs.

[Shubee]

Scripture never claims that man fell from a perfect state.

Christians have a right to know the name of your extraordinarily depraved denomination.

[beam]

Which godless assembly do you represent? I'm sure that I and many others would like to avoid worshiping with you and your ilk at all costs.

I see you follow the theory that when all else fails go into attack mode.   Need I elaborate further?

[RB]

You still have to overcome iniquity with Christ help, no sinners will get to heaven that is clear.

Hobie, Christ overcame the powers of darkness FOR US BY HIMSELF~he destroy the works of the devil BY HIMSELF. Read 1st John 3.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21.

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."Revelation 21:7.

Hobie, these are NOT scriptures stating a CONDITIONS that WE must meet, but a declaration of a biblical truth, that those that overcome shall inherit all things~and WHO are they?

1st John 5:4,5~"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

Those born of God overcome the world, and they are known by their faith~not perfect, but a life of faith when overall considered.

[Hobie]

I see you follow the theory that when all else fails go into attack mode.   Need I elaborate further?

That's all Shubee does whether you agree or disagree with him, no matter which forum or blog.

[Hobie]

Hobie, Christ overcame the powers of darkness FOR US BY HIMSELF~he destroy the works of the devil BY HIMSELF. Read 1st John 3. Hobie, these are NOT scriptures stating a CONDITIONS that WE must meet, but a declaration of a biblical truth, that those that overcome shall inherit all things~and WHO are they? Those born of God overcome the world, and they are known by their faith~not perfect, but a life of faith when overall considered.

Not by Himself, but relying on the Father, Jesus depended on the Father is repeated many times, scripture is clear:

"30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." John 5:30

Jesus drew His strength and wisdom from the Father. He was able to accomplish as much as He did because of this.

"27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:27-28.

The extent of Jesus' dependence on the Father can be seen, as He says that He would not speak words unless they were words He heard His Father speak. The perfect example of this dependent relationship was when they saw Him lifted up on the cross as He followed the Fathers will.

"42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."Luke 22:42.

[Shubee]

That's all Shubee does whether you agree or disagree with him, no matter which forum or blog.

I'm not ashamed of openly declaring true revelation. Consequently, I say openly that I am proud of being a Seventh-day Millerite and that I deplore The Sanctimonious Enablers of Genocide.

To be ashamed of confessing one's complete faith and denominational affiliation is tantamount to being ashamed of Jesus Christ and His teachings. And what did Jesus say about that?

Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

[Hobie]

Like I said..........

[AVZ]

Which godless assembly do you represent? I'm sure that I and many others would like to avoid worshiping with you and your ilk at all costs.

What a weird response. Did I in any way mistreat you or something I don't know about?

[Hobie]

Both Rev 3:21 and 21:7 describe the here and now for those in Christ.

Ephesians 2:6 tells us that when we were saved we were made to sit with Christ in the heavenlies. Since He is now on the throne (Acts 2:29-36) and since He hands the kingdom over to the Father upon His return (1 Cor 15:23-28), any sitting on the throne with Christ takes place in this life, before He returns. In addition, we are presently His children and He is our God, and so we are recipients of all blessings He has to offer.

I would also suggest that Edenic innocence and glory has been restored in Christ (Hebrews 2:5-10). In Christ is restored fellowship with God and the crown of glory and honor that was lost due to sin.

Thus, if this is your definition of perfection, then it is now a reality for those in Christ. If you are referring to perfection of behavior...sinlessness in all thought, word, and action, then not in this life. If you are referring to perfection of status with God, then yes, but only in Christ.

Yes, but many who appear to be converted or following Christ, still have much sin even if they are in denial even to themselves, and can fool many with their outward appearance.

"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."Matthew 23:28

[Hobie]

What a weird response. Did I in any way mistreat you or something I don't know about?

It is the norm for everywhere he posts...

[Shubee]

What a weird response.

Are you acknowledging being ashamed of Jesus Christ by refusing to direct me to the presumed Christ exalting website of the church that you're affiliated with?

[Shubee]

It is the norm for everywhere he posts...

It's obvious that your affiliation is with Those Sanctimonious Enablers of Genocide. Yet, at the same time, you're pretending that Christ forgives your indisputable complicity and willful blindness?

[soterion]

Yes, but many who appear to be converted or following Christ, still have much sin even if they are in denial even to themselves, and can fool many with their outward appearance.

"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."Matthew 23:28

Okay, but none of that changes a single thing I posted. Those in Christ have been restored to pre-sin Edenic status with God. If you are asking about perfection in performance, then nobody will achieve it in this life. Only Jesus has done that.

[Hobie]

Okay, but none of that changes a single thing I posted. Those in Christ have been restored to pre-sin Edenic status with God. If you are asking about perfection in performance, then nobody will achieve it in this life. Only Jesus has done that.

But Jesus is our example, and this includes in overcoming, and scripture clearly lays this out.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Revelation 2:17
 
"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" Revelation 2:26

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."Revelation 3:12

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."Revelation 3:21

[RB]

Not by Himself, but relying on the Father, Jesus depended on the Father is repeated many times, scripture is clear:

Hobie, that's a given~yet the righteousness of God that's revealed in the gospel imputeth to his elect, was wrought by the obedience of ONE person, Jesus Christ, so in this sense as a man "HE" obtained eternal redemption for his people.

Romans 5:19~For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So my statement is very biblical:

Christ overcame the powers of darkness FOR US BY HIMSELF~he destroy the works of the devil BY HIMSELF. Read 1st John 3.

Yes,  by his faith in his God as the MAN Christ Jesus he did the will of God and totally rely on him.

[beam]

Ellen Wihite on "perfection"  "As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, ( not true) the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment." {EW 280.2}

"The beasts of the field and the birds of the air had entered the place of refuge. Noah and his household were within the ark, "and the Lord shut him in." The massive door, impossible for those within to close, was slowly swung to its place by unseen hands. Noah was shut in and the rejecters of God's mercy were shut out. So when Christ shall cease His intercession for guilty men before His coming in the clouds of heaven, the door of mercy will be shut. Then divine grace will no longer restrain the wicked, and Satan will have full control of those who have rejected mercy. They will endeavor to destroy God's people; but as Noah was shut into the ark, so the righteous will be shielded by divine power." {EP 55.4}

I guess Ellen never read or believed the following:  Matthew 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

[soterion]

But Jesus is our example, and this includes in overcoming, and scripture clearly lays this out.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Revelation 2:17
 
"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" Revelation 2:26

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."Revelation 3:12

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."Revelation 3:21

Instead of saying, "...scripture clearly lays this out.", you should have said, "...Revelation clearly lays this out."

The point being, you will not find in the more literal, doctrinal and applicational scriptures (i.e., letters of Paul), anything that says man can walk sinlessly or perform God's will perfectly. It seems clear to me that the word "overcome" does not mean "perfect performance of sinlessness" in those Rev passages.

Here is something else to consider: if "overcome" does mean "reach a state of sinless behavior," then everybody who does not achieve this will be left out of all the blessings listed in those Rev passages. Here are those blessings John wrote down about the overcomers:

1. I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

2. To him will I give power over the nations.

3. The same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

4. Him...will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

5. To him...will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

You see, those passages say that those blessings will be granted to those who do overcome. Those who do not achieve this sinlessness, as you seem to want to interpret it, will not receive them. Note especially number 3; those who do not overcome will have their names blotted out of the book of life. Do you want to interpret "overcome" as "perfection in performance"?

Rather, I have to believe "overcome" means "walk in faithfulness," and a faithful walk is not a sinless walk. In 1 John 5:4-5 we read:

For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Overcoming is a matter of having faith in Christ, not in self or in the world. In addition, we read in 1 John 1:7:

but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

In this passage the Greek tenses tell us that as we continue to walk in the light, the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse us of all sin. This is an ongoing walk in the faith with the result that our sins are being cleansed during that walk. This necessarily means that we are still committing sin even though we are walking in the light. Walking in the light does not mean a sinless walk, but a faithful walk.

Given that John wrote those passages in his letter and that he wrote Revelation, I have to believe that his use of "overcome" means "not give up faithfulness to Christ," rather than "achieve perfection of performance."

[Hobie]

Hobie, that's a given~yet the righteousness of God that's revealed in the gospel imputeth to his elect, was wrought by the obedience of ONE person, Jesus Christ, so in this sense as a man "HE" obtained eternal redemption for his people. So my statement is very biblical: Yes,  by his faith in his God as the MAN Christ Jesus he did the will of God and totally rely on him.

By faith, we can reach the same as Christ did, through His power in us, that is the whole point.

[Shubee]

By faith, we can reach the same as Christ did, through His power in us, that is the whole point.

That's utter blasphemy when coming from Those Sanctimonious Enablers of Genocide.

[Hobie]

Believers have something so much better than what Adam had~we have the very righteousness of the Son of God, the second Adam. He have a new man that cannot sin! Of ourselves we cannot, Jesus Christ achieved this for his elect~in his life of perfect obedience. SDA do not teach this acording to the scriptures~They have embraced another gospel from their false prophetess that bewitch them in her days and still doing so by her writings.

So we go to heaven full of sin and iniquity, somehow I don't think that is what Christ is saying when He says "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. "

[piecrust]

Perfection is back to the state that Adam was created, without sin yet with free will choice, the perfection which Jesus as flesh has shown us......

Many have argued against perfection, but yet everyone knows that mans carnal imperfection or sin will not be let into heaven. So how is this 'Gordian Knot' to be resolved?

I think you've missed the whole point of salvation.

[Hobie]

Both Rev 3:21 and 21:7 describe the here and now for those in Christ.

Ephesians 2:6 tells us that when we were saved we were made to sit with Christ in the heavenlies. Since He is now on the throne (Acts 2:29-36) and since He hands the kingdom over to the Father upon His return (1 Cor 15:23-28), any sitting on the throne with Christ takes place in this life, before He returns. In addition, we are presently His children and He is our God, and so we are recipients of all blessings He has to offer.

I would also suggest that Edenic innocence and glory has been restored in Christ (Hebrews 2:5-10). In Christ is restored fellowship with God and the crown of glory and honor that was lost due to sin.

Thus, if this is your definition of perfection, then it is now a reality for those in Christ. If you are referring to perfection of behavior...sinlessness in all thought, word, and action, then not in this life. If you are referring to perfection of status with God, then yes, but only in Christ.

So one can continue in sinful behavior and iniquity and say its all covered so we are all good.. That is not what Christ does for us.

[Amo]

That perfection is the goal there can be no doubt, as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was in fact perfect. He also wishes for us to pick up our crosses and follow Him. On the other hand, anyone who might actually think that they have arrived at perfection, most certainly has not. Humility, which is a major part of perfection, simply does not allow for such boasting even if it were the truth. Such is the conundrum of perfection. While there is certain danger in making the target too low, there is equal danger in assuming you have nailed it.

[Hobie]

Ellen Wihite on "perfection"  "As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, ( not true) the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment." {EW 280.2}

"The beasts of the field and the birds of the air had entered the place of refuge. Noah and his household were within the ark, "and the Lord shut him in." The massive door, impossible for those within to close, was slowly swung to its place by unseen hands. Noah was shut in and the rejecters of God's mercy were shut out. So when Christ shall cease His intercession for guilty men before His coming in the clouds of heaven, the door of mercy will be shut. Then divine grace will no longer restrain the wicked, and Satan will have full control of those who have rejected mercy. They will endeavor to destroy God's people; but as Noah was shut into the ark, so the righteous will be shielded by divine power." {EP 55.4}

I guess Ellen never read or believed the following:  Matthew 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

And when does the end come, at the return of Christ...