YOU CAN’T BE A CONSISTENT PRETERIST UNLESS YOU’RE ALSO A CONDITIONALIST

[Larry H]

Greeting

This is my first post so here it goes.

am in the process of reading an article by Chris Date who states on his website "Rethinking hall" " You can't be a consistent preterist unless you're also a conditionalist" Has anyone considered the idea be it PP or FP.   

<link removed as per forum rules>

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Larry H,

First of all, welcome to the forum.  I presume you are of the Preterist persuasion if you are posting here?  May our tribe increase, as they say. 

With a 7-year history to date of believing scripture as a Preterist, I too had to re-think my understanding of the topic of Hell and the traditional teaching of eternal torment.  I found that both OT and NT scriptures show us that the "Lake of Fire" or the "Furnace of Fire" was an experience localized in the city of Jerusalem in the AD 70 era only; an event that was used by God to "BURN UP the chaff" - not to extend the life and torment of the wicked or the Devil and his angels perpetually. 

To "perish" actually does mean to be obliterated after judgment; not to be preserved to suffer an eternal life of torture.  To me, this perishing of the wicked explains how we can still see the skeletal remains today of those who died prior to the AD70 PHYSICAL, biological resurrection of the dead at Christ's PHYSICAL second coming back then. 

Anyone dying prior to AD70's resurrection either perished from existence if they were the "chaff" - both body and soul - or if they were in Christ, they were given glorified, incorruptible bodies fitted to live in God's presence in heaven.  So any current human remains dating prior to AD70 belong to those who were not given eternal life in that AD 70 resurrection at the Lord's return.

I remember when I first became interested in seriously investigating this issue of Hell.  I asked our pastor if he could loan me a book on Hell if he had one in his collection.  He laughed; a rather odd response for a topic that is of such sober consequences in the traditional view.  That was enough to discourage me from asking him for assistance in my studies. 

Someone else gave me a pitiful, flimsy paperback on Hell, about 1/4" thick, with the traditional mindset presented - but no attempt to address any other perspective or opposing questions on the topic.  I finally gave up on asking those Christians of my acquaintance, and dug into the Bible itself. 

When one asks God for wisdom about something, He does not disappoint.  Conditional immortality is the inevitable conclusion, and perpetual torment of the wicked dead is debunked for the doctrinal error that it is. 

Larry H, if you're interested in some of my rambling thoughts on the subject, I commented extensively in the post someone started called simply "Hell" at this link, starting at comment #23, I believe.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/hell-97842/

And I started the post in this Preterist forum called "Defining...the Second Death / Lake of Fire", which is far from the typical opinion of what the Second Death / Lake of Fire is, but sticks closely to the history of the scripture regarding the First and Second Deaths of Jerusalem.

I also checked into your "Rethinking Hell" website with Chris Date's posts.  He wrote one called "A Primer on Rev. 14:9-11".  I wanted to see how he covered that text with its reference to fire and brimstone torment.  I agree with his take on it, but he didn't expand on it as thoroughly as I did on another website (a Preterist one) where I have posted for about four years.  If you're interested, send me a pm, and I'll give you a link to that set of comments. Someone must have thought they had some merit, since that post stayed in the top ten for about a year and a half, I noticed.

Anyway, hope you hang around and keep posting - I'll check into whatever material you have time to present. 

[3 Resurrections]

Hi again Larry H,

Oops, looks as if the link took you to another post with the word "hell" in a lower case  letter instead.  Two different posts- similar theme.  Sorry about that, so I changed the link above to the one I intended in the first place:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/hell-97842/

[notreligus]

For those who want to know more about Conditionalism or Annihilationism  (as was covered at this forum before via a discussion of the doctrine of Edward Fudge, a former Church of Christ preacher)...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism

[Larry H]

Hi 3 Res Thanks for the Welcome.

Your rambling is a breath of fresh air

I'm beginning  to consider the Hell concept is nothing more than a myth or fable, actually I'm 90 percent convinced. Since it's paradigm is hard to let go of .

If Hell is real why is it not mentioned in the sermons recorded by the Apostles, but is penned in the letters of  James and Peter. Or by some of the best know scholars like "William Barclay, John A.T. Robinson, Lightfoot, Westcott, F.W. Farrar, Marvin Vincent, etc". Are we not told by Paul's letter to Timothy to avoid Myth and fables.

Since the word Hell was not added in the NKJV and left out of newer translation of bible one cannot point  to the word Hell concept in the KJV  O.T  to prove it exists.

In your estimations you said it must be a first century Phenomenon, but what did Jesus mean or intended via the word Hell.
I took your advice and checked out the second intended link and seem to fly of the hand. So I would like to start a fresh one if it gets off the ground.

The word hell in the New Testament

Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29 Matthew 5:30 Matthew 10:28 Matthew 18:9 Matthew 23:15 Matthew 23:33 Mark 9:43 Mark 9:45 Mark 9:47 Luke 12:5 James 3:6 2 Peter 2:4

I will PM you as soon as I figure out how to do it.

[Larry H]

Hi 3 res


Did you receive my PM 

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Larry H  - 

Yes, thank you for letting me know that message went through.  Will send you a response by pm, because I can type a response there faster than the texting I have to use to post online here...

Hmmm,  looks as if your inbox is full - I can't send a pm.  Maybe clear out a message or two, and it will go through.

[Larry H]

Hi Larry H  - 

Yes, thank you for letting me know that message went through.  Will send you a response by pm, because I can type a response there faster than the texting I have to use to post online here...

Hmmm,  looks as if your inbox is full - I can't send a pm.  Maybe clear out a message or two, and it will go through.

How do I get into the inbox or outbox to clear it, since I don't believer they are full.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Larry,

Since you're a member who just recently joined, it hardly seems likely that your message box is already full.  If I was of a suspicious sort of mind, I would say that the Preterist forum has gremlins lurking on here, instigating mischief.

I've never emptied my inbox, but I suppose you can selectively delete items one at a time?

[Larry H]

Hi 3 Res

I guess I will have to go with the punch's  for a while 3 Res.  I don't see an inbox or out box to delete from, so now what do I do    O-Well thanks for the tip. 

[Rexenm]

I just thought of the scene in Harry Potter, where Dumbledore says, "Love, Harry..." It's like a secret society, within a secret society - but where does it end? I've heard it said, Jesus created love, by my proselytarian grandmother. I agree, but I don't totally agree..

[Larry H]

 Acts 1 what do you think

The real meaning of "in like manner," as that which qualifies His arrival, is missed in my opinion, WHEN IT IS INTERPRETED AS A REFERENCE TO THE OUTWARD PHYSICAL CIRCUMSTANCES OF HIS ASCENSION. Rather, the FOCUS IS ON THE PERSON – THIS SAME JESUS. HE IS THE RESURRECTED JESUS WHO NO LONGER IS OF THE AEON OF FLESH BUT WHO IS THE LORD AND CHRIST OF THE NEW AEON OF LIFE. He ascends totally ENVELOPED IN THE GLORY AND POWER OF GOD. Hence, this same Jesus will come; i.e., He will arrive "apart from sin" (Heb. 9:28), according to the very manner that "ye have seen him go into heaven." (The Cross and the Parousia (Warren, OH: Parkman Road Church of Christ, 1987), 495, n.92.)

When, therefore, the cross and Christ's parousia are retained [held back] within the same eschaton, [final event of God's plan] they have a complementary [oposite ]rather than a counteractive [corrective] age-changing function that brings to completion GOD'S ETERNAL PURPOSE AS SET FORTH WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF "THE TWO COVENANTS" (Gal. 4:21-31). From this perspective, Christ's parousia (which means PRESENCE OR ARRIVAL) IS TIED, NOT TO AN OUTWARD, PHYSICAL, EARTHLY APPEARANCE OF SOME SORT, BUT TO THE CONSUMMATED COMING OR ARRIVAL OF THE NEW COVENANT AEON IN THE END OF THE OLD AEON. His presence, therefore, is a COVENANTAL PRESENCE IN TERMS OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT, which is explanatory of Paul's solitary AIM TO "WIN CHRIST, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil. 3:8,9).

Galatians 4:21 Two Covenants (Genesis 21:8-21; Isaiah 54:1) Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

23 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.


23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,

24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar — 

25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children —

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Hell is a place in Norse mythology.  The Bible teaches about Hades and Gehenna; not Hell.

Gehenna was a literal place in Israel - it was the place outside Jerusalem where the trash was burned.  If annihilation is what you're studying, this is likely the starting point.

Hades is something else entirely.  It was not a place of torment in most ancient culture, but a place of waiting for re-birth.

[robycop3]

Gehenna was the term JESUS  used to describe the lake of fire, which is eternal.

  hades is the place where the souls of the dead temporarily go. It's divided into "paradise" for the saved & "torments" for the lost, according to one of Jesus' parables.

[Larry H]

If hell is the final resting place for the dead then why did Jesus use the word destroy, everlasting destruction etc. I thought only the saved get immortality. Those who believe that God created an oven for the unbelieving dead should  Rethink Hell. The word Hell is leaving the bible, and  systematic Christianity is having a hard time with it. 

There is a book out called "The fire that consumes" by Ed Fudge. and many are taking note of it. Take the challenge, you may be surprised.


Matthew 10:28-Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
   
James 4:12-There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.

Philippians 3:19-Whose end is destruction.
   
2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: destruction)

Those who preached the word Hell to the atheist has given them ammunition to shoot back at them. 

[robycop3]

  Remember, Scripture says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire where the "beast & the false prophet ARE", not "were".

[Larry H]

I found this article, you may be interested in who believe God created a lake of fire somewhere in the universe for the unbelievers who do not love Him, for those Who will received immortality so they can burn forever.

We are programmed by systematic Christianity that it is hard to let go of the idea of a burning Hell. 


Do the homework call me back

What Is the Lake of Fire? Is It the Same as Hell or Gehenna?

The Bible's answer

The lake of fire is a symbol of eternal destruction. It is the same as Gehenna, but it is different from hell, which is the common grave of mankind.

Not a literal lake

The five Bible verses that mention "the lake of fire" show it to be a symbol rather than a literal lake. (Revelation 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8) The following are cast into the lake of fire:

The Devil. (Revelation 20:10) As a spirit creature, the Devil cannot be harmed by literal fire.—Exodus 3:2; Judges 13:20.
Death. (Revelation 20:14) This is not a literal entity but represents a state of inactivity, the absence of life. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) Death cannot literally be burned.

"The wild beast" and "the false prophet." (Revelation 19:20) Since these are symbols, doesn't it seem reasonable to conclude that the lake they are thrown into is also a symbol?—Revelation 13:11, 12;16:13.

A symbol of eternal destruction

The Bible says that the lake of fire "means the second death." (Revelation 20:14; 21:8) The first kind of death mentioned in the Bible resulted from Adam's sin. This death can be reversed by resurrection and will eventually be eliminated by God.—1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 26.

There is no release from the symbolic lake of fire

The lake of fire represents a different, or second, kind of death. Although it too represents a state of total inactivity, it is different in that the Bible says nothing about a resurrection from the second death. For example, the Bible says that Jesus has "the keys of hell and of death," showing that he has the authority to release people from the death brought by Adam's sin. (Revelation 1:18; 20:13, King James Version) However, neither Jesus nor anyone else has a key to the lake of fire. That symbolic lake represents eternal punishment in the form of permanent destruction.—2 Thessalonians 1:9.

Identical to Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom

Gehenna (Greek geʹen•na) is mentioned 12 times in the Bible. Like the lake of fire, it is a symbol of eternal destruction. Although some translations render this word as "hell," Gehenna is different from hell (Hebrew sheʼohlʹ, Greek haiʹdes).

The Valley of Hinnom

The word "Gehenna" literally means "Valley of Hinnom," referring to a valley just outside Jerusalem. In Bible times, the city residents used this valley as a garbage dump. They kept a fire constantly burning there to destroy refuse; maggots consumed anything that the fire did not reach.

Jesus used Gehenna as a symbol of everlasting destruction. (Matthew 23:33) He said that in Gehenna "the maggot does not die and the fire is not put out." (Mark 9:47, 48) He thus alluded to the conditions in the Valley of Hinnom and also to the prophecy at Isaiah 66:24, which says: "They will go out and look on the carcasses of the men who rebelled against me; for the worms on them will not die, and their fire will not be extinguished." Jesus' illustration describes, not torture, but complete annihilation. The worms and fire consume carcasses, or dead bodies, not living people.

The Bible gives no indication of any return from Gehenna. "The lake of fire" and "the fiery Gehenna" both represent permanent, everlasting destruction.—Revelation 20:14, 15; 21:8; Matthew 18:9.

How "tormented day and night forever and ever"?

If the lake of fire is a symbol of destruction, why does the Bible say that in it the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet "will be tormented day and night forever and ever"? (Revelation 20:10) Consider four reasons why this torment does not refer to literal torture:


For the Devil to be tortured eternally, he would have to be kept alive forever. However, the Bible says that he will be brought to nothing, or put out of existence.—Hebrews 2:14.

Everlasting life is a gift from God, not a punishment.—Romans 6:23.

The wild beast and the false prophet are symbols and cannot experience literal torture.

The context of the Bible indicates that the torment of the Devil is everlasting restraint or destruction.

The word used for "torment" in the Bible can also mean "a condition of restraint." For example, the Greek word for "tormentors" used at Matthew 18:34 is rendered as "jailers" in many translations, showing the connection between the words "torment" and "restraint." Likewise, the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:30, 31 equate "torment" with "the abyss," a figurative place of complete inactivity or death. (Romans 10:7; Revelation 20:1, 3) In fact, several times the book of Revelation uses the word "torment" in a symbolic sense.—Revelation 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.

[Rexenm]

All this is making sense to me now, but I get what you mean about the word of God being elusive. What else can you say about Gehenna?

[Larry H]

Hi Rex

The word Gehenna is mentioned some 10 times in the NT by Jesus, it is important to understand how His Jewish audience understood the word Gehenna. It may be good to start from the beginning or your journey, and be amazed how we presented the charter of God. So I suggest take the ride and study the information presented and see that all these years we were preaching a false Gospel concerning Hell/Gehenna. 

https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwue3nBRACEiwAkpZhmWAMMXRHSQv6D9lZoVOwFDKzjzeb9IW9MLfDpf-cdwoW8DxqOq4ZTRoC-XUQAvD_BwE

Hope to see you soon

Larry

[robycop3]

  Jesus also called it straight-out, the "lake of fire". It cannot be a pleasant place. He used "gehenna" because the earthly gehenna, the garbage dump outside Jerusalem, burned constantly til the Romans sacked Jerusalem & no more trash was dumped there.

  And Revelation says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, where the "beast" & false prophet ARE, having been cast there 1K years earlier.

  The "beast" & the false prophet will be MEN, the most-evil men of all time. They'll be so bad they'll be cast directly into the LOF without passing "Go!" or collecting $200. They won't go into the Great White Throne judgment, having been already judged & condemned. Nowhere does Scripture say they, nor Satan, will simply be blotted outta existence.

  Now, I don't wanna find out how bad the LOF will be, so I TRUST JESUS to keep me from going there. I hope each of you will do the same !

 

[Larry H]

First go here

Jesus used Gehenna as a symbol of everlasting destruction. (Matthew 23:33) He said that in Gehenna "the maggot does not die and the fire is not put out." (Mark 9:47, 48) He thus alluded to the conditions in the Valley of Hinnom and also to the prophecy at Isaiah 66:24, which says: "They will go out and look on the carcasses of the men who rebelled against me; for the worms on them will not die, and their fire will not be extinguished." Jesus' illustration describes, not torture, but complete annihilation. The worms and fire consume carcasses, or dead bodies, not living people.

The Bible gives no indication of any return from Gehenna. "The lake of fire" and "the fiery Gehenna" both represent permanent, everlasting destruction.—Revelation 20:14, 15; 21:8; Matthew 18:9.

[robycop3]

  Guess you missed "where the beast & the false prophet ARE."

    Preterists make the error of reducing much Scripture to "figurative/symbolic" status when in reality, it's mostly LITERAL. Otherwise, history & Scripture together prove preterism false, as history is shaped by Scripture, & the eschatological events Scripture predicts have simply not yet occurred.

 

[Larry H]

"Presumably, a literal lake of burning sulfur couldn't affect a spiritual being like the devil. Furthermore, how literal can we really expect this lake to be when the abstract entity of death is thrown in, as is the clearly symbolic beast?"

http://rethinkinghell.com/2015/12/30/a-primer-on-revelation-2010/

Just when you thought you had a good objection, now you must read the link and add some correction. Then post something to prove your point.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Larry H,

The apostle Paul tells us that there are several kinds of flesh, and he lists them in I Cor. 15:39-40.  Besides our human kind of "terrestrial flesh", there is "celestial flesh", which is what the angelic hosts were given at their creation.  Angelic flesh is absolutely capable of being destroyed down to ashes by the fire of God, as Ezekiel 28:18-19 predicted for the "anointed cherub" that was once in Eden. In other words, God was going to bring fire out of the celestial flesh of this anointed cherub (Satan) and turn him into ashes upon the earth, "...and NEVER SHALL THOU EXIST ANY MORE".  Sounds like Satan was scheduled for annihilation by the fire of God.  From other references in Revelation and Isaiah, we know this was prophesied to take place at the time when Jerusalem was under siege in AD 70.

I agree with robycop3 that much of eschatological scripture is LITERAL events, although they are portrayed in word pictures which signify what would happen.  These events absolutely did indeed take place in the AD 70 era, and the majority of them have historical documentation and archaeological proof that they have already happened.  That even applies to Christ's physical return on the Mount of Olives, as Zechariah 14 promised would take place at the same time period when Jerusalem and its tribes were under siege in AD 70.  Dates and actual events of the first century can be supplied for virtually every one of Revelation's written prophesies.

The Scarlet Beast and the False Prophet Beast had already been occupying Jerusalem (the living human individuals who were part of both of those entities) prior to the time when every unclean spirit was finally imprisoned in the city, according to Rev. 18:2.  Just how is it possible to "imprison" an unclean spirit?  By imprisoning the person that the unclean spirit is possessing.  Just how does an unclean spirit being get destroyed?  By God's annihilation of the human spirit, body and soul that the unclean spirit being has merged with by possessing them.

Christ prophesied that the wicked generation of Jews He was speaking to would end up being tormented 7 times more by demonic evil than when He was among them casting out devils.  This came to pass in the AD 70 era, when Satan and the unclean spirits were cast into the "furnace of Jerusalem" with its Lake of Fire conditions.  The city's "Second Death" by fire was a reflection of its first death by fire at the hands of the Babylonians in 586 BC.

This fire can be considered as both literal hot flames that incinerated the buildings of the city of Jerusalem, as well as a consuming fire from God that destroyed any kind of spiritual entity doomed to destruction.

[Larry H]

Hi 3 res,

Good to see ya again, are you saying and approving with Robo that somewhere in the universe there is a literal Lake of Fire. Or agreeing that all that stuff in Revelation are signification of literal events taken from the OT. Where the first century Jews could relate to them.

Especially when Jesus uses the word Gehenna representing a horrific history by the kings offering children into the fire. A thought that never entered the mind of God. And to show the fate of the wicked apostate first century Jews..

As for the fate of the angel's literally on fire to end their existence.

Fire didn't seem to trouble this angel Ex. 3:2 Acts 7:30

And yes indeed these things were fulfilled in the first century

You said ..... This fire can be considered as both literal hot flames that incinerated the buildings of the city of Jerusalem, as well as a consuming fire from God that destroyed any kind of spiritual entity doomed to destruction.

I like it,  What else can you offer...... you got my attention. 

[3 Resurrections]

Hi again Larry H,

Just a few more thoughts related to the fire of God mentioned in scripture...

You're right to bring up the example of the "angel of the LORD" not being affected by the supernaturally burning bush of Exodus 3:2 that didn't consume the bush either.  It seems that the "angel of the LORD" is also not affected either by the natural hot flames of a burning sacrifice, such as Manoah's angel who "did wondrously" by ascending to heaven in the flames of that man's sacrifice in Judges 13:19-20.  Another example would be the 4th man in the flames of Nebuchadnezzar's furnace - the one who appeared to be like the son of god, according to the king.  All these examples were said to be the presence of God appearing as the "angel of the LORD". 

God is actually the source for a stream of consuming fire coming out from before the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7's vision.  As the originating source of that consuming fire, God and the angel of the Lord are alternately the cause of either purification of the righteous (as in I Cor. 3: 13-15), or of the destruction of the wicked (as in II Thess. 1:8-9).   

In Ezekiel 28:14 & 16, the "anointed cherub"  (Satan) was also said to be able to "walk up and down in the midst of the stones of fire" in his originally-created righteous condition.  Yet in his fallen condition, the same fire originating from God was going to destroy him to ashes upon the earth.  Apparently, according to the scripture pattern, anything in a fallen unrighteous condition is liable to destruction coming from the consuming fire that represents God's absolute holiness.  Only a covering shield supplied by God can protect any created being from the intense effect of fire coming from His holy presence.  Moses experienced this first-hand when he was shielded by God's hand, and then permitted to view God's back parts, but not His face in Ex. 33:18-23.  Today, Christ the Lord is our shield of righteousness that protects us, and will allow us a face-to-face encounter with God and His consuming fire in a final bodily-resurrected state of glorified holiness. 

In Rev. 14:18, it was an angel from the temple in heaven who "had power over fire" that was charged to judge the people in Jerusalem.  He used his sickle to harvest "the vine of the earth" (ethnic Israel of the first century) and throw them into the "wine press" of the city of Jerusalem.  This resulted in the bloodbath of AD 70's Great Tribulation for the Jews.   That "power over fire" was used to burn up the harvested tares in Jerusalem at that time.  The wailing and gnashing of teeth at that point were done by those who had eaten and drunk in Christ's presence, and who had heard Him teach in their streets - clearly a reference to the very generation Christ had ministered to (Luke 13:25-29).  God called it "the furnace of fire" in Matt. 13:42 & 50, where God would gather together all those who did iniquity, along with the Devil and his angels, for whom it had been prepared (Matt. 25:41). 

Even in the Old Testament, God designated Jerusalem as the city where His "furnace of fire" was located (Isaiah 31:9 - "...the Lord, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem).  The temple housed the fire on the altar, originally kindled by God Himself (Lev. 9:24), which was never supposed to be quenched (Lev. 6:13).  The literal flames of unquenched fire that the priests kept burning on the altar were an earthly pattern portraying the continual stream of fire coming from before God's throne in heaven that Daniel 7:9-10 envisioned. 

Significantly, in Rev. 14:10-11, those individuals with the Beast's mark being tormented without rest day and night with fire and brimstone were alive and suffering those torments "IN THE PRESENCE of the holy angels and IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb".  The word in Greek is "enopion", which means before the very face of the holy angels and of the Lamb.  That means that the holy angels and Christ were in the same flaming environment, but were unaffected by the fire and brimstone themselves; a bit different take on most people's understanding of this text. 

Also, since "day and night" are also mentioned here, this cannot be referring to an after-life experience of eternal torment, because God promised all the way back in Genesis 8:22 that while the earth remained, day and night would not cease.  This means the AD 70 " Lake of Fire / Second Death had to be a temporal experience of judgment on earth; it is not relegated to our future and an eternal after-life to come for the wicked dead.

Just as a side note to robycop3, the one word emphasized in the verse brought up about the devil being cast into the Lake of Fire where the Beast and the False Prophet ARE  - the word "ARE" is in italics as an insertion by the translators, so it might not be a good idea to lean the entire weight of the argument on that single inserted word.  And it says nothing at all about those two Beasts being in the Lake of Fire for a thousand years before the Devil joins them.  That's misinterpreting the time the literal 1,000 year millennium expired in AD 33.

[Larry H]

Hi 3 Res

On the surface of Revelation 20:10 it seems kind of simple to understand until one digs deeper into the verse.

Ezekiel 28:14-19" We read a description of Satan's ultimate and eternal destruction" "and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth"

Compare

Revelation 20:10 "The devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever"

How can the Devil be in eternal conscience tormented forever, if His ashes will be upon the earth..Ezekiel 28:14-19

A short verse by verse run through

In Revelation 19:20 The beast and the false prophet are captured and cast alive into the lake of fire, burning with brimstone.
Subsequently in Revelation 20:1 Satan is bound by chain and key by Christ the Messenger/angel of the Covenant Malachi 3:1:for a number of symbolic years

Revelation 20:10 Consequently following, the devil is cast into the same lake of fire where the beast and false profits are, ARE in italics, questionable. Those three entities are obviously singled out.  It should be noted also this verse should not stand alone, but be a part of a greater picture. Since John see's a vision, how literal should we take it?

Revelation 20 14-15 Then death, and anyone not found in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire.

The question is what does all of this represent literally, and did it all take place in the first century.

Something to ponder

Bible scholar, theologian, and an attorney-at-law, Edward Fudge makes these comments:

"In these closing chapters of Revelation, even the word torment itself is sometimes a symbol for total destruction and death. The wicked city Babylon is pictured as a woman whose judgment in chapter 18 is "torment and grief," which turns out to be "death, mourning, and famine," and she is "consumed by fire." It is not unthinkable, therefore, to understand torment of the devil, beast, and false prophet as death and consumption by fire which are never reversed" ("No Need to Waver" by Edward Fudge quoted from the Internet site Rethinking Hell www.rethinkinghell.com/ ).

[robycop3]

  No, the eschatological events did NOT occur in 66-70 AD. The events then were the "days of vengeance" Jesus pronounced against the Jews of that time. These were NOT worldwide events.
  Had Jesus then returned, the present world would be vastly-different. However, it's still the same as it was in 65 AD & 71 AD, the only changes being the technological inventions God has allowed man to discover.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Larry H,

Your point is that you don't see how Satan could be reduced to a pile of ashes (according to Ezekiel 28:18-19) if his torment was supposedly to last perpetually according to Rev. 20:10.  Well, the KJV translates it as "forever and ever", but that word "forever" doesn't necessarily mean  "un-ending".  One example of "forever" having a termination point is in Isaiah 32:14-15. "...the forts and towers shall be for dens FOR EVER, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks UNTIL the spirit be poured upon us from on high...".  By this we can see that the word "forever" can simply mean "of long duration" in some contexts.

The Greek for Rev. 20:10 is actually rendered "and they shall be tormented day and night FOR THE AGES OF THE AGES."  Now, we know that Paul said in I Cor. 10:11 that "...these things all as types happened to them and were written for our admonition, on whom THE ENDS OF THE AGES ARE ARRIVED." 

That means that a certain group of AGES was ending at the very time Paul was writing.  For 4 millennial ages since creation, Satan had been allowed to operate in the world at various levels of intensity.  However, his "short time" and "little season" of being loosed from his restricting chain to once again freely deceive the nations of the world after the "First Resurrection" in AD 33 would soon be coming to an end, once he was imprisoned in Jerusalem's Lake of Fire conditions of torment from AD 66-70. 

The devils were well aware of this season of approaching imprisoned torment, which is why they asked Christ if he had "come to torment them BEFORE THE TIME" when they would be judged and eliminated from this world.  The devils knew the scripture in Isaiah 24:21-23 that predicted when they would be gone, and it would be at the same time that the "kings of the earth", (the high priesthood of Israel), would also be imprisoned with them and eliminated in Jerusalem.  (The high priesthood was part of the Scarlet Beast entity - along with the False Prophet Beast from the land, whose members were all cast alive into Jerusalem's Lake of Fire as the city and the nation died for the second time by fire since the Babylonians torched it in 586 BC.)

The Devil and his angels were tormented in the city of Jerusalem until the "ends of the ages" came in AD 70 (the meaning behind Rev. 20:10).  It was the end of the ages of a world plagued by the presence of Satanic evil.  After that time when the Devil was reduced to ashes upon the earth (Ezekiel 28:18-19), and all the "unclean spirits passed out of the land" (Zech. 13:2), the exclusive blame for any evil in the world is now being laid squarely at the feet of fallen humanity alone.  That's why the world's reality is now called a "New Heaven and a New Earth" existence, "wherein dwelleth righteousness", because God now permanently in-dwells His people by the ever-present Holy Spirit.  He "will never leave us or forsake us". 

Those "days of vengeance" events from AD 66-70 happened primarily in Jerusalem and Judea, as robocop3 has said, but that was not the only locality that suffered in those first-century days.  There were indeed "divers places" that suffered from earthquakes, plagues and famine, and "wars and rumors of wars" all over the Roman Empire, as Paul warned those on Mars Hill in Athens (Acts17:30).  God was then commanding "ALL MEN *EVERYWHERE* TO REPENT" because He had set a day when He was "ABOUT TO JUDGE THE WORLD in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained..."

Besides, since the Jews were scattered all over the known world at that time, the "days of vengeance" which would bring judgment on that generation of Jews who had crucified Christ would necessarily have to encompass more than just the land of Israel alone.

[Larry H]

Hi 3 Res

It's not so cut and dry when considering the destruction of Satan being destroyed by literal fire, like the Lake of Fire. The bible sometimes moves along with expression. I believe this is the case in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 28:18 "By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought FIRE FROM THE MIDST of you; It has CONSUMED you, And I have turned you to ASHES on the earth In the eyes of ALL WHO SEE YOU.

19 "All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'" NASU

The word CONSUMED in Strong is DEVOUR, or simple NOTHING LEFT. 

I provided scripture where an angel lives through fire, so that idea of fire destroying an angel is up for grabs.

Perhaps this is why the author used the word ashes

REMEMBRANCES ARE LIKE UNTO ASHES, your bodies to bodies of clay Job 13:12

The Vulgate renders it, Memoria vestra comparabitur cineri. The Septuagint, Apobeesetai de humoon to [gauriama] isa spodoo - "your boasting shall pass away like ashes."

Or fire can be used figuratively ...Maybe this is Satan's annihilation/destruction

OT:784 'esh (aysh); a primitive word; FIRE (literally or FIGURATIVELY

Fire is used in many different ways in scripture.

"The Hebrew term translated "destroyed" is abad (Strong's #6). Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words states, "Basically, abad REPRESENTS THE DISAPPEARANCE OF SOMEONE OR SOMETHING. IN ITS STRONGEST SENSE THE WORD MEANS 'TO DIE OR TO CEASE TO EXIST.'" In Ezekiel 28:18, God prophesies that He will turn the cherub Satan "to ashes upon the earth," which certainly IMPLIES COMPLETE DESTRUCTION."

Ezekiel 28:11-19

Or it may be taken more generally for the fire of God's judgments, which shall devour both prince and people, and bring all the glory of both to ashes upon the earth; Ezekiel 28:11-19

All God's judgments upon sinners take rise from themselves; they are devoured by a fire of their own kindling. Matthew Henry's Commentary

So when looking at a scripture and taking it simply literally all the time to prove God only destroyed Satan by fire and left ashes behind for all to see can have a greater representative  meaning. I believe this is the case in the destruction of Satan. And it seems this is the way most commentator I compared notes with view the picture. With a little help from my friend Strong. And this same kind of depiction can be found in Revelation 20:10 a book loaded with signs.

Capitalization mine for clarity

your up

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Larry H,

We can't use the example of Exodus 3:2 with that "angel of the Lord" living through the fire of the burning bush, because that "angel" (or messenger) actually was God Himself that called to Moses out of the middle of the burning bush (Exodus 3:4).  God cannot be harmed by fire of any description, since He is the very source of a constant stream of it coming forth from the throne of God. 

But other than that, it appears we are in agreement that God actually did dispose of Satan so that he no longer exists because he was completely destroyed - whether that "fire" was natural flames or a supernatural, symbolic "fire" from God as a means used to get rid of him at the ends of the ages in AD 70.

I like this passage in Isaiah 33:14 that describes those who walk in righteousness being able to "dwell on high", as well as being able to "dwell with the devouring fire" and to "dwell with everlasting burnings".  A curious way to describe the blessed state of the righteous, unless you remember that stream of consuming fire that rushes forth from the throne of God's holy presence in Daniel 7:9-10.  If we are covered by Christ's righteousness on our behalf, we are able as priests to view God's face without being consumed by that fiery stream of holy consuming fire coming from before His throne in heaven.

[Larry H]

Hi again 3 Res

"And when forty years had passed, AN ANGEL OF THE LORD APPEARED TO HIM IN A FLAME OF FIRE in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. Acts 7:30

The mighty Angel of the Lord speaks as God, as a special representative of God, In like that  as Moses shall be as God to Aaron and Pharaoh. Ex.4:16 Ex 7:1 There are many other instance in the Old Testament where we can see this sort of thing.

Cut and pasted some thoughts to ponder

"The (or an) angel of the LORD (Hebrew: מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה‎ malakh YHWH "messenger of Yahweh") is an entity appearing repeatedly in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) ON BEHALF OF GOD (Yahweh)"

"Another interpretation builds on the usage by which ancient spokesmen, after an introductory phrase, used the grammatically first person in proclaiming the point of view of the one they represent"

[Larry H]

Hi Robycop3

No, the eschatological events did NOT occur in 66-70 AD. The events then were the "days of vengeance" Jesus pronounced against the Jews of that time. These were NOT worldwide events.

Had Jesus then returned, the present world would be vastly-different. However, it's still the same as it was in 65 AD & 71 AD, the only changes being the technological inventions God has allowed man to discover

  Had Jesus then returned, the present world would be vastly-different. However, it's still the same as it was in 65 AD & 71 AD, the only changes being the technological inventions God has allowed man to discover.

As I understand it the most important changed in AD 70 was concerning the children of God. It was the passing of the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. Not  inventions, discoveries, or the latest New Paper articles. It reminds me of something the Pharisees asked Jesus.

Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "THE KINGDOM OF GOD DOES NOT COME WITH OBSERVATION

21 NOR WILL THEY SAY,' SEE HERE!' OR 'SEE THERE!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Colossians 3:2 Set your mind on things above , NOT ON THINGS ON THE EARTH

[robycop3]

  Jesus ushered in the New Covenant during His ministry, and placed the stamp on it at the "Last Supper" & sealed it with His death & resurrection. Nothing to do with His yet-future return.