Creation scientists

[Rella]

author=Amo link=topic=104473.msg1055204540#msg1055204540 date=1661020820]
Yea, just scripture says, God created the basic physical operation of the universe. Not.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17  nd he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Ignorance is, as ignorance speaks I suppose.

Amo,

What are you talking about?

It is you who are proving what 4WD said.... It WAS GOD... and no one else who "  created the basic physical operation of the universe

There is not one thing in what you biblically quoted in blue that would say otherwise.

John 1: 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17  nd he is before all things, and by him all things consist .

If the 4 corners of the Holy Words says God did it... then He did. Inclusive of  His creation of the basic physical operation of the universe.  And He did so with the same ease he created the means and mechanism of all living to reproduce. ( A feat that man has not achieved unless you count cloning, which requires an initial being of God's to achieve.[/size]

[Amo]

Amo,

What are you talking about?

It is you who are proving what 4WD said.... It WAS GOD... and no one else who "  created the basic physical operation of the universe

There is not one thing in what you biblically quoted in blue that would say otherwise.

If the 4 corners of the Holy Words says God did it... then He did. Inclusive of  His creation of the basic physical operation of the universe.  And He did so with the same ease he created the means and mechanism of all living to reproduce. ( A feat that man has not achieved unless you count cloning, which requires an initial being of God's to achieve.

OK. Obviously I did not convey my point in my last post very well. My point was to show the difference between 4WD's understanding of what scripture says about creation, and what scripture actually says. Scripture suggests nowhere that God created the basic physical operation of the universe, as 4WD did -

His creation of the basic physical operation of the universe.

.

To the contrary, scripture says the following, with emphasis upon the highlighted sections.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

[4WD]

Scripture suggests nowhere that God created the basic physical operation of the universe, as 4WD did -

Seriously Amo, who, if not God, do you think created the basic physical operation of the universe?

[Rella]

OK. Obviously I did not convey my point in my last post very well. My point was to show the difference between 4WD's understanding of what scripture says about creation, and what scripture actually says. Scripture suggests nowhere that God created the basic physical operation of the universe, as 4WD did - .

To the contrary, scripture says the following, with emphasis upon the highlighted sections.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

]

You are still unclear.............

My point was to show the difference between 4WD's understanding of what scripture says about creation, and what scripture actually says. Scripture suggests nowhere that God created the basic physical operation of the universe, as 4WD did

All things were made by him[/size]; and without him was not any thing made that was made

As 4WD asked... if it was not God then who did this? It did not just happen.

Someone originally  created the basic physical operation of the universe,

In other words... if there was no basic physical operation of the universe things would not operated as originally designed.

So who did this? It did not evolve.. and if it did someone created that ability.

You quoted

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So the bible says God did it.

You disagree... so again who did? For everything there was/is a start and that came from an original creator.

Why do you not see that?

[Amo]

Seriously Amo, who, if not God, do you think created the basic physical operation of the universe?

Of course He created the basic physical operation of the universe, and everything else. It is the everything else part you have a problem with, isn't it? Evolution is evolution, creation is creation. They are not the same. What sense does a statement to the effect that God created the basic physical operation of the universe, or what point is made by such, when God created everything?

4WD -

I do have faith in God of creation and in His creating the basic facts of the physical operation of the universe; something about which you have willingly chosen to be ignorant.

Perhaps I missed your point. What exactly was the point if your above statement? Why did you zero in on God creating the facts of the physical operation of the universe? Do you believe the scriptures that I quoted? Or do you believe God basically started things with the basics, and evolution took over from there? Or do you believe God created the basics and then helped evolution along? Just exactly how do you think the ratio happened? Do you believe in the big bang?

Here is an article concerning some problems now being faced by all those proponents of the big bang theory. Do you think maybe they were wrong?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/the-big-bang-theory-has-been-debunked/ar-AA10SJTD

The Big Bang Theory Has Been Debunked?

Science appreciators around the world have been pleased with the new images being produced by the James Webb Space Telescope. This new highly advanced telescope has showcased images of the stairways that no one has ever seen before. While the public has been transfixed by how many new galaxies, stars, and more have been shown, it has caused a panic among astronomers and cosmologist communities. One of the growing concerns for these new images is that it has begun to produce papers that might be indirectly stating that the Big Bang Theory has been debunked, which would be massively heartbreaking for many people.

Many scientists have been studying these new images and determining evidence that has stood for many years. The big bang theory essentially states that the universe began some 14 billion years ago in an incredibly hot and dense state that has been expanding ever since. However, the characteristics of the galaxies that are furthest away should be huge and contain a "red shirt" to their light. What the James Webb Telescope has discovered is that those galaxies are the complete opposite. An astronomer at the University of Kansas in Lawrence, Alison Patrick, spoke about this new evidence with great panic. According to Patrick, "Right now I find myself lying awake at three in the morning and wondering if everything I've done is wrong."

The new evidence would debunk the Big Bang Theory in a big way, as the initial idea is the universe exploded into existence and began to expand. In fact, it should be ever-expanding. But the new galaxies found are said to be older than when the Big Bang was said to have initially occurred. The young stars in those far galaxies should be hot and blue in color, as most young stars are. However, the stars being discovered are all cooler and reddish in color, indicating they are older than when the Big Bang would have occurred. Naturally, these new findings would have a massive impact on the scientific community. The Big Bang Theory being debunked would result in years of research being useless, in a sense. More importantly, the religious community that has believed that a singular god created the universe and accompanying stars would have some much better ground to stand on.

The Big Bang Theory was initially devised in 1931. Should it be debunked, it would cause scientists to rethink their entire careers. The astronomer that voiced her panic is just one of the many people that would likely lose sleep over such a massive discovery. The scientific community might continue to be in an uproar when more galaxies are discovered by the James Webb Space Telescope.

Science uses hypotheses and theories to determine and test anything in the known universe. However, years of research and data might be deemed wrong should the Big Bang Theory truly be debunked. If it is debunked, it might cause an existential crisis for astronomers, cosmologists, and regular people. Those who have rejected the idea of God, but adopted the Big Bang, would then have to ask themselves: "where did all these galaxies come from?"

[Amo]

You are still unclear.............

My point was to show the difference between 4WD's understanding of what scripture says about creation, and what scripture actually says. Scripture suggests nowhere that God created the basic physical operation of the universe, as 4WD did

All things were made by him[/size]; and without him was not any thing made that was made

As 4WD asked... if it was not God then who did this? It did not just happen.

Someone originally  created the basic physical operation of the universe,

In other words... if there was no basic physical operation of the universe things would not operated as originally designed.

So who did this? It did not evolve.. and if it did someone created that ability.

You quoted

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

So the bible says God did it.

You disagree... so again who did? For everything there was/is a start and that came from an original creator.

Why do you not see that?

4WD said -

I do have faith in God of creation and in His creating the basic facts of the physical operation of the universe; something about which you have willingly chosen to be ignorant.

Creating the basic physical operation of the universe is a far cry from creating all things, as scripture states. What was the purpose of the statement, if not to limit the extent of what God actually created? That is my question. As a deep time evolutionist, it is not clear exactly 4WD thinks about creation. Maybe he does believe that God just created the basic operation of the universe and undirected natural processes and biological evolution took it form there. I don't know. I do know however, that one suggesting they believe God created the basic facts of the physical operation of the universe, leaves quite a lot unsaid. Possibly suggestive of a different view than that of the verses I quoted. Which I quoted to point out as stated, the difference between the very limited statement 4WD made, as compared to all that scriptures addresses about God's direct involvement in creating, and sustaining everything.

[4WD]

4WD said -
Creating the basic physical operation of the universe is a far cry from creating all things, as scripture states. What was the purpose of the statement, if not to limit the extent of what God actually created? That is my question. As a deep time evolutionist, it is not clear exactly 4WD thinks about creation. Maybe he does believe that God just created the basic operation of the universe and undirected natural processes and biological evolution took it form there. I don't know. I do know however, that one suggesting they believe God created the basic facts of the physical operation of the universe, leaves quite a lot unsaid. Possibly suggestive of a different view than that of the verses I quoted. Which I quoted to point out as stated, the difference between the very limited statement 4WD made, as compared to all that scriptures addresses about God's direct involvement in creating, and sustaining everything.

I think you are as confused about what I said as you are about what God said.  My point about God creating the basic physical operation of the universe was not to limit the extent of what God actually created; rather, my point that God not only created the physical objects such as the sun, the moon, the stars, the living beings, etc,, He also created all the natural laws pertaining to the physical operation of the physical objects of creation.

The reason I said that is because the YEC does not really accept that fact.  The YEC interpretation of Romans 8:18-23 is that while God created the universe perfectly in the beginning, when Adam sinned the entire created universe was rendered imperfect; it became degraded and corrupted, and the basic physical operation of the universe was changed. If that was true, who changed it?  God?  Satan? Who?  The truth is that the basic physical operation of the universe is today the same as it was in the very beginning.  Gravity is and was gravity.  Electromagnetism is and was electromagnetism. Radioactive decay is and was radioactive decay. Chemistry is and was Chemistry.  Physics is and was physics. The only thing in the whole of God's word that would indicate otherwise is a terribly bad and ridiculous translation/interpretation of the Greek word κτίσις [ktisis] in Romans 8.

There is a lot more to be said about how the YEC interpretation of creation leads to really terrible conclusions about God's character, but I won't bother with that now.

[Amo]

I think you are as confused about what I said as you are about what God said.  My point about God creating the basic physical operation of the universe was not to limit the extent of what God actually created; rather, my point that God not only created the physical objects such as the sun, the moon, the stars, the living beings, etc,, He also created all the natural laws pertaining to the physical operation of the physical objects of creation.

The reason I said that is because the YEC does not really accept that fact.  The YEC interpretation of Romans 8:18-23 is that while God created the universe perfectly in the beginning, when Adam sinned the entire created universe was rendered imperfect; it became degraded and corrupted, and the basic physical operation of the universe was changed. If that was true, who changed it?  God?  Satan? Who?  The truth is that the basic physical operation of the universe is today the same as it was in the very beginning.  Gravity is and was gravity.  Electromagnetism is and was electromagnetism. Radioactive decay is and was radioactive decay. Chemistry is and was Chemistry.  Physics is and was physics. The only thing in the whole of God's word that would indicate otherwise is a terribly bad and ridiculous translation/interpretation of the Greek word κτίσις [ktisis] in Romans 8.

There is a lot more to be said about how the YEC interpretation of creation leads to really terrible conclusions about God's character, but I won't bother with that now.

You would have to show me where some YEC's may claim the entire universe changed because of sin, and not just this planet, before I would agree or not with your above statement. YEC's definitely believe the world was fundamentally changed after the fall, as scripture conclusively testifies, even warning against those who maintain that all things remain the same from the beginning. Then we could discuss the particulars of the universal changes you are speaking of.

Please do show us where YEC's claim gravity is no longer gravity, or that Electromagnetism is no longer Electromagnetism, or radio active decay is no longer radio active decay, or chemistry is no longer chemistry, or Physics is no longer physics, and so on and so on. To my knowledge, no such claim is made by any. At the same time, every YEC understands that God Himself is not and never has been limited in any way shape or form by such. They are not controlling factors to Him as they are to us. He put these realities into place for and in relation to us, He is not limited by them at all.

Do you really want me to enumerate the changes to this world the bible states have taken place since the fall? Your above argument seems more like a change of subject than an argument. Unless of course you can more accurately specify your claims above that YEC's claim the entire universe changed, and that they no longer accept the basic realities you listed. Here we are.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[4WD]

You would have to show me where some YEC's may claim the entire universe changed because of sin, and not just this planet,

Are you saying that you think the "creation" in Romans 8 is just the earth and its inhabitants and not the universe as a whole?  If so, how do you come to that conclusion? And to add to that, what specifically is the corruption and the bondage to that corruption of any but the human race of people in Romans 8:18-22.

Also, it might help if you were to define the meaning of the word "world" as you see it in 2 Peter 3:6 that you posted.

Do you really want me to enumerate the changes to this world the bible states have taken place since the fall?

Yes; but only those changes to this world that the bible states have taken place as a result of the fall.

[Amo]

Are you saying that you think the "creation" in Romans 8 is just the earth and its inhabitants and not the universe as a whole?  If so, how do you come to that conclusion? And to add to that, what specifically is the corruption and the bondage to that corruption of any but the human race of people in Romans 8:18-22.

You are changing the subject again. Please show me where YEC's state the entire universe was changed after the fall and not just this world, and or reject the scientifically established things you listed.

If you want to answer my questions with other questions, I will do the same. Are you saying that Paul was referring to the entire universe in the above verses, and that he was wrong? The bondage and corruption to this entire world is observed and felt every day by everything on this planet. Sin, pain, suffering, death, disease, and on and on. None of this is part of the world God created and pronounced good. It is all an unavoidable part of your evolutionary faith. Therefore do you argue against the plainly stated truths of scripture.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

[Amo]

Also, it might help if you were to define the meaning of the word "world" as you see it in 2 Peter 3:6 that you posted.

No. We have already played your word games about the word world. No need to go through them again.

[Amo]

Yes; but only those changes to this world that the bible states have taken place as a result of the fall.

All changes to this world since the fall, would of course have to be connected to the same. Even if one wants to incorrectly attribute change to humanity alone, that change would change and effect everything else. The flood itself was judgment for humanities sins, which occurred only at and after the fall. The future destruction of this world by fire, is also a result of the fall. As are all the negative changes to this world since the fall. What God originally created was very good, and would have remained at least that way, if not become better, but for the fall. These things are simply beyond you, because you have chosen another faith above the testimony of scripture. You cannot see them, because you will not see them. Therefore has strong delusion taken hold upon you, which will only increase over time, save you repent and submit to the word of God.

Isa 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[4WD]

You are changing the subject again.

No I am not.  All I am saying is that the corruption in Romans 8 applies only to human beings. There is no rational way to apply, as you seem to want to do, the concept of corruption and bondage to corruption to anything other than the human. To do otherwise is simply another of a YEC demonstration of ignorance of how the universe actually works.  And you do that every time you lambast science.

[4WD]

All changes to this world since the fall, would of course have to be connected to the same.

Absolutely not as cause and effect.

[Amo]

No I am not.  All I am saying is that the corruption in Romans 8 applies only to human beings. There is no rational way to apply, as you seem to want to do, the concept of corruption and bondage to corruption to anything other than the human. To do otherwise is simply another of a YEC demonstration of ignorance of how the universe actually works.  And you do that every time you lambast science.

Yes, I know you think the holy scriptures are not truth or rational, but you are simply wrong.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Are serpents or snakes humanity? God cursed them to crawl on their bellies. Is the ground or soil humanity? God cursed the ground, making it bring forth thorns and thistles which it apparently did not before. Were animals hunted and killed for food before the curse when God specified a plant diet for humanity? Not likely.

Gen 2:5  And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Is this God created watering system still in place? No, it is gone replaced by rain, since the flood caused by the wickedness of humanity, caused by the fall.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them..............

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.........................

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die......................

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth............................

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

The Lord repeated seven times, the number of completeness, that He would destroy all life upon land that moved or breathed. This because humanity was wicked, and they were wicked due to the fall, and that wickedness negatively effected the entire world and still does.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.effected and effects all the earth, as it does to this day. Your refusal to accept these simply stated and repetitiously confirmed truths, means nothing. They are truths you simply cannot see, understand, or accept, being deceived by acceptance of another non biblical faith. You are delusion because you refuse the truth. Disregarding the confirming testimonies of Peter and Paul in relation to these truths as well, for the same reason.

While I am no fear mongering Climate Changer, I am not either ignorant of the destruction, misery, and woe humanity has often brought upon the natural world. This through ignorance, simply greed driven indifference to the environment around them, and or straight up evil destruction of nature by many different means, not the least of which is war. Yes, fallen humanity is in fact a curse upon this world let alone itself, in many way shape and forms. Your denial of such changes nothing concerning this truth. 

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[Amo]

Absolutely not as cause and effect.

And you claim I have no scientific understanding. Go figure.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7_6lzHHKo

Good Creationist video.

[4WD]

And you claim I have no scientific understanding. Go figure.

Not a claim.  An observable truth.

[Amo]

Not a claim.  An observable truth.

Says the one who can see no cause and effect upon this world from sin and the fall, which necessitated the death of God Himself, in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. It seems your powers of observation are rather dim when relating to scripture and the enormity of the effects of sin. This again though, is the effect of your misplaced faith in fallen humanities observations detached from the word of God.

[4WD]

Says the one who probably thinks Genesis 3:14 means serpents eat dirt and lions stopped eating grass when Adam sinned and began eating sheep. 

[Amo]

Says the one who probably thinks Genesis 3:14 means serpents eat dirt and lions stopped eating grass when Adam sinned and began eating sheep. 

Gen 3:14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Yes, I know you have trouble with many scriptures. I tell you the truth, they are not the problem. Obviously, according to scripture, serpents or snakes were a very different kind of creatures than they are today. They did not crawl on their bellies with their faces in the dust as they are today. There is no talk of what lions or cats ate before the fall, but it is not a far stretch to conclude it was probably what they will eat in the new earth.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

There are many who laugh at scripture today, who will cry and howl for doing so on that great day. God will wipe the smile of scorn and derision concerting the testimony of his word, from all faces forever. We would all do well to make sure we are not among that crowd.

[4WD]

Gen 3:14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Oh good grief, Amo.  If you would only read what it says;  instead, you read what you wanted it to say.  "And the LORD God said unto THE serpent....",  The Serpent, not serpents.  Who or what is THE serpent?  That is up to you, and you can make what you want of that, but it certainly is not a declaration of all serpents.

[Rella]

Oh good grief, Amo.  If you would only read what it says;  instead, you read what you wanted it to say.  "And the LORD God said unto THE serpent....",  The Serpent, not serpents.  Who or what is THE serpent?  That is up to you, and you can make what you want of that, but it certainly is not a declaration of all serpents.

By your rational then what Eve did and then Adam would have no bearing on what befell mankind after God booted them from the garden?

IOW... What we refer to as  original sin in referring to Adam's sin of disobedience in eating the forbidden fruit had NO effect upon the rest of the human race ?

[4WD]

By your rational then what Eve did and then Adam would have no bearing on what befell mankind after God booted them from the garden?

IOW... What we refer to as  original sin in referring to Adam's sin of disobedience in eating the forbidden fruit had NO effect upon the rest of the human race ?

That is basically true.  Ezekiel 18 says that the sons of Adam were not held responsible for the sins of Adam.  Adam's sons were responsible for their own sins and only their own sins. That holds true for the sons of the sons of Adam  --  on and on and on right down to you and me.

It did have the effect of closing the garden to the rest of us.  But trust me, both you and I would have been kicked out anyway.  And if fact everyone would have been kicked out because as Paul said "All have sinned".

[Rella]

That is basically true.  Ezekiel 18 says that the sons of Adam were not held responsible for the sins of Adam.  Adam's sons were responsible for their own sins and only their own sins. That holds true for the sons of the sons of Adam  --  on and on and on right down to you and me.

It did have the effect of closing the garden to the rest of us.  But trust me, both you and I would have been kicked out anyway.  And if fact everyone would have been kicked out because as Paul said "All have sinned".

Then by original design God instilled a sin nature in each of us?  Glad to hear that cause it sure explains a lot about myself an everyone else I have known well.

Well that's good cause I was intending on kicking Eve where the sun done not shine if I see her in the here after.

But here is another question.

Women, for the most part have great discomfort to horrible pain when they give birth.

Eve, in the beginning did not because God said to her... Gen 3-16"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Or was Eve exempt from what God instilled in all women until she disobeyed?

Of course you will disagree with the explanation here but Ill post it anyway.

A woman's pain in childbirth is part of the suffering brought into the world through sin. As a direct result of the original sin, Adam, Eve, and the serpent were all cursed in one way or another. Genesis 3:16 lists one of the judgments for Eve's sin as pain in childbirth: "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children."

It appears that, even before the fall, there would have been some pain in childbirth. God says, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth" (ESV), using a Hebrew word meaning "to increase." The pain of childbirth would be more than before. The pain was amplified.

The pain in childbirth that Eve and all her daughters would experience involved more than the actual delivery of the baby. The phrase "painful labor" indicates that the whole process of childbirth, from conception to delivery, would include much difficulty.

This judgment from God was meant to be one that every childbearing woman would experience. Pain in childbirth was placed on Eve and on every future mother. This pain serves as a universal reminder of God's judgment for the sin Adam and Eve brought into the world.

This was a Got Questions reply... which I know you do not follow, but their simplicity in explanation I appreciate for certain things

Yes... all child bearing creatures have an element of discomfort... ( As a former dog breeder I can attest to that )... but not to the extent that women do.

[4WD]

Yes... all child bearing creatures have an element of discomfort... ( As a former dog breeder I can attest to that )... but not to the extent that women do.

I suspect you were not a breeder of English Bulldogs.  They have a terrible time giving birth, so much so that they usually give birth through caesarian section.  The reason is their very large heads.  Same reason that human beings have the difficulty they do. The child at birth is large compared to the birth canal. So, did the sin of Adam cause human at birth to be made larger or the female birth canal to be made smaller?  Just curious.

[4WD]

Then by original design God instilled a sin nature in each of us? 

If we sin because of our sin nature and Adam had no sin nature instilled by God, then why did he sin?

The reason Adam sinned is the same reason that you and I sin.  The point is that God instilled a free will in man.  Sin nature is nothing more than the ability to free choose to either obey or disobey.  And having that ability is not sin.  Sin is using that ability wrongly.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

If we sin because of our sin nature and Adam had no sin nature instilled by God, then why did he sin?

I think you've been arguing the point so long that you've begun adopting the opposition's vocabulary.  Sin nature?  There is no such thing in the Bible.

There is the natural.  There is the flesh.  There is such a thing as iniquity.  There is talk of punishments inherited because of the father's sins.  All of those would be relevant talking points.  But sin nature?  No such thing.

Jarrod

[4WD]

Yes I know. The NIV translates the Greek word "sarx" in Romans 7:25 it as "sinful nature" . The ISV translates it as "human nature". Most of the rest of the English versions translates it as simply flesh.  There is no such thing in the Bible as original sin either; but it is in the vocabulary of the believers in it.  The only punishments "inherited" because of the father's sins are temporal sufferings. Spiritual punishment, i.e., eternal condemnation, inherited because of the father's sins, i.e., original sin, is specifically denied in Ezekiel, chapter 18.

[DaveW]

I think you've been arguing the point so long that you've begun adopting the opposition's vocabulary.  Sin nature?  There is no such thing in the Bible.

There is the natural.  There is the flesh.  There is such a thing as iniquity.  There is talk of punishments inherited because of the father's sins.  All of those would be relevant talking points.  But sin nature?  No such thing.

Most use the term "sin nature" to distinguish the NT use of sarx when talking about our pre-regenerated tendencies as opposed to the physical body. Paul used the term both ways. 

[4WD]

Most use the term "sin nature" in their faulty argument for original sin.

[Rella]

I think you've been arguing the point so long that you've begun adopting the opposition's vocabulary.  Sin nature?  There is no such thing in the Bible.

There is the natural.  There is the flesh.  There is such a thing as iniquity.  There is talk of punishments inherited because of the father's sins.  All of those would be relevant talking points.  But sin nature?  No such thing.

Jarrod

Yes, many people say this.

But I ask you this.

I assume, being the biblical studier that you are that you are well versed in

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go )KJV)........ AND

Proverbs 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. (KJV)

And I assume you have children who at one time were  or you know younger children?

How many children do you know will cope the George Washington "I cannot tell a lie" It was me... when they did something
that was to bring certain punishment? Or will they lie or be evasive?

Obviously God knew this  or He would not have 2 verses in proverbs regarding the nature of children.

So you dont want to call it a sin nature because the words are not in the bible? Phooey People have the tendency to want to protect themselves and they also have the tendency to want to do things that are not right or just plain sin.

Free will? Possibly... but is a fact no matter how you want to spin it.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Yes, many people say this.

But I ask you this.

I assume, being the biblical studier that you are that you are well versed in

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go )KJV)........ AND

Proverbs 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. (KJV)

And I assume you have children who at one time were  or you know younger children?

How many children do you know will cope the George Washington "I cannot tell a lie" It was me... when they did something
that was to bring certain punishment? Or will they lie or be evasive?

Obviously God knew this  or He would not have 2 verses in proverbs regarding the nature of children.

I don't believe Proverbs is an inspired book. 

So you dont want to call it a sin nature because the words are not in the bible? Phooey People have the tendency to want to protect themselves and they also have the tendency to want to do things that are not right or just plain sin.

I don't like to call it sin nature, because the phrase is mis-leading.

People have natural urges - yes to protect themselves, to eat, drink, have sex.  They can lead to sin when they are used in the wrong time and place, but none of those are inherently 'not right,' as you say. 

When people desire to do wrong on purpose, what Paul calls concupiscence, that is not natural.  That is an acquired behavior.  Paul says that did not take hold in himself until the law instructed him that certain things were wrong.  (Romans 7)

Jarrod

[Amo]

Sinful nature is what I have heard and usually call what we are. Make no mistake about it, what we are must die, what Adam and Eve were before the fall did not have to die. There is a big difference. This is why God separated Adam and Eve and the rest of us from the tree of life, because we must die.

The saved choose death in the here and now through and in Christ Jesus our Lord. The unsaved will all die the second death, which is death indeed. Work out what you will with words, but the condition of humanity since the fall is deserving of death, while before the fall it was not. The fallen are in a condition that is not acceptable to God. Either we have to go, or He does. Which is exactly why He came here as one of us, to show us what we really want to do to Him.

Paul makes this abundantly clear -

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

So does our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ -

Mat 10:38  And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Big difference within us from before the fall, to after -

Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. 6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

[4WD]

Sinful nature is what I have heard and usually call what we are. Make no mistake about it, what we are must die, what Adam and Eve were before the fall did not have to die. There is a big difference. This is why God separated Adam and Eve and the rest of us from the tree of life, because we must die.

That makes no sense whatsoever.  If Adam and Eve did not have to die before they sinned, then why was the tree of life in the Garden in the first place?  And once they did sin, why did God drive them from the Garden?

The obvious answer is that Adam and Eve were physically mortal as created. the Tree of Life was in the Garden to keep them from dying physically.

Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--"
Gen 3:23  therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.

There is nothing in the whole of the Bible to even suggest that Adam and Eve were created physically immortal.  Nothing in the whole of creation is physically immortal.