Creation scientists

[4WD]

Isn't it?

No.  But no matter.  I think Amo is coming to an inappropriate conclusion about what the author is saying with respect to evolution.  The author is not rejecting the concept of evolution.

[Rella]

No.  But no matter.  I think Amo is coming to an inappropriate conclusion about what the author is saying with respect to evolution.  The author is not rejecting the concept of evolution.

The author is not well spoken in an explanatory way.... but given that

"what is core to the theory — and not forfeitable? It's naturalism."  Do YOU disagree?

" That is the only thing required of evolutionary theory." Do YOU disagree ?

"And naturalism is a religious requirement, not a scientific one." Do YOU disagree? If so, why?

"Because if you have two theories, you don't have one theory. In other words, you have a multitude of contradictory theories. And you have heated debates because nothing seems to fit the data. In science, that is not a good sign." This IS a statement of truth truly stated.

"There is no such thing as a settled theory of evolution." Hence... there is no denial of evolution but a denial that there is one single concrete proof of such.

[Amo]

If you spend just a few weeks here at GC forum, or any other gathering of the saints, you would have to conclude that there is no "settled theology" either.  So then according to your Dr. Hunter and you, on that point, textbook orthodoxy is simply false.

There is no textbook orthodoxy among differing religious faiths or denominations. The key word being faith. Which is the main point of the article regarding evolution as well.

So, what is evolution? In other words, what is core to the theory — and not forfeitable? It's naturalism. Period. That is the only thing required of evolutionary theory. And naturalism is a religious requirement, not a scientific one.

naturalism
Synonyms of naturalism
1: action, inclination, or thought based only on natural desires and instincts

2: a theory denying that an event or object has a supernatural significance
specifically : the doctrine that scientific laws are adequate to account for all phenomena

3: realism in art or literature specifically : a theory or practice in literature emphasizing scientific observation of life without idealization and often including elements of determinism

Naturalism is a chosen faith, not scientific reality.

[Amo]

https://answersingenesis.org/world-religions/religion-of-naturalism/

Quoted part of article below from link above. To view entire article click link above.

Chapter 12

The Religion of Naturalism

Naturalism, or philosophical naturalism, is one of the most popular religions in the world today, although most people don't recognize it as such because it has no obvious worship centers, clergy, liturgy, or holy book. It has adherents in every country and dominates many countries, especially among the intellectual elites in the culture. It is therefore important to understand this major religion and how it became so popular. But sadly, it has also had a very significant and largely unrecognized influence on the worldview of many Christians, which is an even greater reason for Christians to understand it.

Naturalism is known by other names: atheism, scientific materialism, and secular humanism. Atheists, secular humanists, and other advocates of naturalism will protest that their view is a religion, but would say it is the opposite of religion. So we need to begin by defining "religion." According to the 11th edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, one definition of religion is "the service and worship of God or the supernatural." That obviously doesn't apply to atheism. But another given by that dictionary certainly does apply: "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." Many people who hold to naturalism are just as passionate about their belief as the most convinced Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or adherents of any other religion.1

Defining Naturalism

So what are the beliefs of naturalism? The most fundamental belief from which all others flow is that nature or matter is all that exists. It has always existed or it came into existence from nothing. There is nothing outside or before nature, i.e., the material universe that is studied by modern science. There is no God and no supernatural. Although nature has not always existed in its present form, what we see today is the result of time and chance and the laws of nature working on matter. Miracles are not possible, because they would be a violation of the laws of nature. Non-material things such as hopes, plans, behaviors, languages, logical inferences, etc., exist, but they are the result of and determined by material causes.

As Christian philosopher and theologian Ronald Nash summarizes:

Nature is a self-explanatory system. Any and every thing that happens within the natural order must, at least in principle, be explainable in terms of other elements of the natural order. It is never necessary to seek the explanation for any event within nature in something beyond the natural order.2
With this belief in place, other beliefs follow. So, there is no purpose or meaning to life — we are simply the product of time and chance and the laws of nature; there are no moral absolutes that apply to all people in all times; moral values are simply personal beliefs or opinions, which themselves are the result of chemical and physical processes controlling matter. Likewise, there is no life after death, for the laws of nature still apply and our bodies simply decay over time and are mixed in with other non-living matter in the earth.

The late William Provine, atheist and evolutionary professor of history of biology at Cornell University, put his naturalistic view this way:

Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin's views. There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That's the end for me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.3
The world's most famous atheist, Richard Dawkins, similarly said, "The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil and no good. Nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is, and we dance to its music."4 The first Humanist Manifesto was published in 1933. The first two articles of that document state, "FIRST, religious humanists regard the universe as self-existing and not created" and "SECOND, humanism believes that man is a part of nature and that he has emerged as a result of a continuous process." Flowing out of those two starting points, the fifth states, "FIFTH, humanism asserts that the nature of the universe depicted by modern science makes unacceptable any supernatural or cosmic guarantees of human values. . . . Religion must formulate its hopes and plans in the light of the scientific spirit and method."5

It will readily be clear to any thoughtful non-naturalist that this worldview is self-refuting. If nature is all that exists and everything is the result of time and chance and the laws of nature, then the naturalist or atheist can have no trust that his thoughts are telling him the truth for they are the result of chemical and physical processes operating in his brain. In fact, in his religion or worldview, objective absolute truth does not exist. Of course, if everything is the result of material causes, then the naturalist has no valid explanation for the origin or truth of the laws of nature that he relies on to understand the world. And if there is no absolute right and wrong, then the atheist cannot object to what Hitler did to the Jews or to what Muslim suicide bombers do to innocent civilians in a shopping mall. Nor could he object if someone entered his home, robbing him of all his valuables and murdering his family. Hitler, the suicide bomber, and the robber/murderer are just doing what they think is right, but their thoughts are dictated by their own DNA, which is produced by purposeless, directionless chemical and physical processes. Of course, neither Provine nor Dawkins nor anyone else can really live according to this religion of naturalism. In fact, to live, the naturalist must steal from the Christian worldview to argue that there is some truth (including the laws of nature) and some things that are absolutely right or wrong.

How Naturalism Became a Dominant Religion

Today, the religion of naturalism/atheism culturally dominates the Western world and the communist world and is widespread among the cultural elites in many other countries dominated by other religions. In addition, many people who profess to believe another religion are significantly influenced by naturalism in their thinking, and outside of their attendance at religious services at their house of worship, they actually live like a naturalist/atheist. How did naturalism become such a widespread belief?

The roots of this modern dominance of the naturalistic religion or worldview can be found in the Enlightenment, an intellectual movement of the late 17th and 18th centuries in Europe that elevated human reason to the place of supreme authority for determining truth and understanding ultimate reality. As a result, such thinkers rejected the authority of the Christian church and the Bible. From this philosophical starting point, both deism and atheism became popular in those same centuries.

Deism is a halfway house on the way to atheism and holds that there is a God who created the universe and endowed it with the laws of nature and then left it to operate and develop according to those laws. So God is distant and has not been involved in the creation since the beginning. Apart from the deists' belief in a rather vaguely defined Creator God and a supernatural beginning to the creation, they were indistinguishable from atheists in their views of Scripture and physical reality.6 In deism, as in atheism, the Bible is merely a human book, containing errors, and not the inspired Word of God, and the history and function of the creation can be totally explained by the properties of matter and the "inviolable laws of nature" in operation over a long period of time.

Deists and atheists often disguised their true views, especially in England and America where they were not culturally acceptable. Many of them gained influential positions in the scientific establishment of Europe and America, where they subtly and effectively promoted naturalistic thinking. Brooke, noted historian of science, comments on the subtle influence of deistic forms of naturalism when he writes:

Without additional clarification, it is not always clear to the historian (and was not always clear to contemporaries) whether proponents of design were arguing a Christian or deistic thesis. The ambiguity itself could be useful. By cloaking potentially subversive discoveries in the language of natural theology, scientists could appear more orthodox than they were, but without the discomfort of duplicity if their inclinations were more in line with deism.7
But the effects of deistic and atheistic philosophy on biblical studies and Christian theology also became widespread on the European continent in the late 18th century and in Britain and America by the middle of the 19th century. As Reventlow concluded in his massive study:

We cannot overestimate the influence exercised by Deistic thought, and by the principles of the Humanist world-view which the Deists made the criterion of their biblical criticism, on the historical-critical exegesis of the nineteenth century; the consequences extend right down to the present. At that time a series of almost unshakeable presuppositions were decisively shifted in a different direction.8
Historians of science agree that modern science was born in the womb of the Christian worldview. The Bible teaches that the Creator is a God of order who created an orderly world to reveal His glory (Psalm 19:1–6). Also, man was created in the image of God with a rational mind, and from the beginning man was commanded to rule over the creation (Genesis 1:27–28). Therefore, man could and should study the creation to discover that order and learn how to use the creation for the good of mankind and the glory of God.

So the biblical worldview, which had dominated the Western nations for centuries, was rapidly being replaced by a naturalistic worldview. Science became the main instrument for producing this transformation. Scientists became the priests of that religion, and through them many others were won to that faith. To understand how this happened, we need to distinguish between two broad categories of science. I like to call them operation science and origin science.
..............................................

[4WD]

There is no textbook orthodoxy among differing religious faiths or denominations.

Of course there is.  There are all manner of orthodox religious faiths and denominations.  Some even carry the word orthodox in their identity. The religious organization you identity with alludes to a textbook orthodoxy.

[4WD]

I will say here again that I am not necessarily a proponent of biological evolution. And that is because I really do not know and understand that much about biology, generally.  But I have no doubt whatsoever that if that is the route God chose for His creation, He is fully capable of making it happen. And what little I do know about it, it seems to me that there is more than enough data out there to indicate that He very well may have gone that route.

[4WD]

https://answersingenesis.org/world-religions/religion-of-naturalism/

Quoted part of article below from link above. To view entire article click link above.

That entire article reminds me of the woke democrat's explanation for so much of their rationalization of their approach to what is going on in this nation today.  It is rebuttal by name-calling.

If you don't agree with the answersingenesis view of things (a view which in my opinion borders on the ridiculous), then you must be a deist at best and more likely an outright atheist.

[Amo]

Of course there is.  There are all manner of orthodox religious faiths and denominations.  Some even carry the word orthodox in their identity. The religious organization you identity with alludes to a textbook orthodoxy.

orthodox

Synonyms of orthodox

1
a: conforming to established doctrine especially in religion
orthodox principles
the orthodox interpretation

No sir. Differing faiths and or denominations do not conform to each others doctrines. Just like all the differing views or theories of many evolutionists do not agree or conform with each other. Therefore, as the article correctly concluded, there is no orthodox theory of evolution. Just many differing views concerning the theory.

[Amo]

I will say here again that I am not necessarily a proponent of biological evolution. And that is because I really do not know and understand that much about biology, generally.  But I have no doubt whatsoever that if that is the route God chose for His creation, He is fully capable of making it happen. And what little I do know about it, it seems to me that there is more than enough data out there to indicate that He very well may have gone that route.

If you believe God directed these processes, then you are a Creationist. Just not a biblical Creationist. Change and or adaption happens. This is observable science. Giving the theory of evolution some observable as it were evidence of possible authenticity. Which is a long ways off from scientific fact. Choosing to believe it was the mechanism of our existence, is an act of faith concerning the unobservable events of such. Just as choosing to believe the creation account of Genesis is a literal is.

[Amo]

That entire article reminds me of the woke democrat's explanation for so much of their rationalization of their approach to what is going on in this nation today.  It is rebuttal by name-calling.

If you don't agree with the answersingenesis view of things (a view which in my opinion borders on the ridiculous), then you must be a deist at best and more likely an outright atheist.

I think deists and atheists would take offense at that statement. As though being called one of them, was equal to an insult. There are deists and atheists. Categorizing or identifying a set of beliefs as basically one or the other in nature, isn't necessarily name calling or an insult. Saying what some one else believes is ridiculous is an insult. Yet we all have a right to our opinions, including thinking what someone else thinks is ridiculous. Which is how I view a theory of natural random chance, undirected, biological evolution.

[4WD]

No sir. Differing faiths and or denominations do not conform to each other's doctrines.

Of course not.  They conform to their own doctrines.   

[4WD]

If you believe God directed these processes, then you are a Creationist.

Yes, of course.

Just not a biblical Creationist.

Bovine Scat!! Because I don't agree with your interpretation of some parts of the Bible does not make me not biblical.  That you might think that, and by all indications you certainly do think that, that all that says is that you are terribly egocentric in your theology.

[4WD]

Yet we all have a right to our opinions, including thinking what someone else thinks is ridiculous. Which is how I view a theory of natural random chance, undirected, biological evolution.

Which is basically the statement that God couldn't or didn't create in such a way as indicated by the great majority of the data.  And by the way if God did create in such a way, then it is not undirected.  Also I am not sure what your definition of natural random chance is.  In your view does anything in the universe happen by natural random chance?

[Amo]

Yes, of course.
Bovine Scat!! Because I don't agree with your interpretation of some parts of the Bible does not make me not biblical.  That you might think that, and by all indications you certainly do think that, that all that says is that you are terribly egocentric in your theology.

At least I have an interpretation, which is basically exactly what the scriptures plainly state. The bible does not state what you interpret it to say about creation anywhere at all. Therefore I conclude that it is non biblical. Please correct me if I am wrong, and show us where scripture does suggest deep time evolutionary development, as the cause, source, or mechanism of our existence. Surely if you cannot, then non biblical is applicable. Is it not?

[Amo]

Which is basically the statement that God couldn't or didn't create in such a way as indicated by the great majority of the data.  And by the way if God did create in such a way, then it is not undirected.  Also I am not sure what your definition of natural random chance is.  In your view does anything in the universe happen by natural random chance?

Bovine scat back at ya! The data is the same for all to see. It does not suggest deep time evolution but for those who choose to see it as such. And or refuse to acknowledge the biblical testimony that this world was once very different than it is today. Causing major problems for the dating methods used for such deep time scenarios. In that they are not able to account for the significant effect these changes undoubtedly represent concerning dating methods which assume all things remain the same from the beginning. Apart from this, no amount of change and or adaption, equals evolution as the mechanism of our existence. But for those who choose by faith to make such so. Who are you or anyone else to say that isn't just a built in part of God's design, and if so, there is no need for a theory of evolution as the mechanism of our existence? As a matter of fact, there is a whole lot of needed evidence or data, that is missing or just does not fit the deep time evolution scenario.

Of course, seeing that we both consider the others views to be somewhat ridiculous, we have not, do not, and will not ever likely agree. So be it.

[4WD]

The data is the same for all to see. It does not suggest deep time evolution but for those who choose to see it as such.

Of course it does.  All you have going for you is a really poor translation/interpretation of a couple of Hebrew words in Scripture.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Of course it does.  All you have going for you is a really poor translation/interpretation of a couple of Hebrew words in Scripture.

He's also got that willful blindness that comes from being completely sure that what you believe is correct, and being unwilling to consider anything else.

[Amo]

Of course it does.  All you have going for you is a really poor translation/interpretation of a couple of Hebrew words in Scripture.

You mean that really poor translation that every single translator to date, has embraced? Or have you finally found one which actually translates the words as you suggest they mean? As I have asked you to produce more than once before. Perhaps you should stick to interpretation, and leave translations alone.

[Amo]

He's also got that willful blindness that comes from being completely sure that what you believe is correct, and being unwilling to consider anything else.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Here we are, please do show us where holy scripture suggests anything else. And if it does not, while plainly stating what I do believe, then why do you pretend that my confidence is in myself? Rather than the plain testimony of God's word. Why would professed bible believers question what it plainly states, to consider what it says nowhere?

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Psa 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Here we are, please do show us where holy scripture suggests anything else.

Something else than what?  I have not been keeping up with this trash-heap topic.

My comments are strictly based on my previous experience interacting with you.

[4WD]

You mean that really poor translation that every single translator to date, has embraced? Or have you finally found one which actually translates the words as you suggest they mean? As I have asked you to produce more than once before. Perhaps you should stick to interpretation, and leave translations alone.

I have done so many times in the past as you ask.  But here is an example. Knowing that your whole thesis of the history of the universe is tied to your interpretation of the flood of Noah, consider the following:

Gen 7:21  All flesh that moved on the earth [Hebrew - erets] perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;

Gen 41:57  The people of all the earth [Hebrew - erets] came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth.

So, Amo, based upon your extensive expertise in the translation/interpretation methods of scripture, the extent of the Joseph famine in all the earth must, without any controversy whatever, be the same extent as the flood of Noah upon all the earth.  Seriously, the earth is the earth; it can be nothing other than this earth [Hebrew - erets] as we know it today.

[Rella]

double post

[Rella]

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Apr 16, 2023 - 19:01:31

He's also got that willful blindness that comes from being completely sure that what you believe is correct, and being unwilling to consider anything else.

[/size]

I am undecided if that is simply a low blow or the pot calling the kettle.

In all my years here... (it has been more then 10) ... I do not recall ever reading you admitting you might be wrong and were willing to consider something someone has said.

If I am wrong... please tell me.

And that is true for all contributors of GC... including myself, though I will admit from time to time someone will point out an error I have made and I own it.

I will say this.

Unless and until you or anyone can definitively, with no shadow of a doubt , tell us and the world what

In the beginning

actually means, with relationship to the time there was solid ground to walk on... and then there was man to walk on that ground... you cannot comment on anyone else's beliefs.

Only fact is... God created Adam on Day Six, approximately 4,000 years before Christ. And given us to be at about the 2000 from Christ to today... we are about 6,000 in our traceable lineage back to Adam.

DO YOU AGREE There does not seem to be any support for the notion that there are gaps in the Genesis genealogies?

From Adam to us there is no room for evolution. Cross breeeding animals is NOT evolution. Cross pollination of plants isn't either.

Before Adam we have been told nothing.

And because of this I refuse to entertain the thought of where Cavemen/Neanderthals play into the scheme of things.

But I do know they were not around 13.8 billion years ago.... assuming earth was part of the unverse. Others say earth is 4.6 billion years old.... A mere baby by comparason.

Wiki says... "This era extends from more than 2 million years into the past until sometime between 40,000 and 10,000 years ago."

That is a far cry from 13.8 billion.... or even 4.6 billion.

Even considering "Ontario researcher thinks 890-million-year-old fossils may be ancient relatives of sponges" https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/oldest-animal-fossils-sponge-1.6120659

That still is a heck of a long way from 13.8 billion or 4.6 billion

Britannica says "According to some Hindu texts, Earth has been around for more than 150 trillion (with a t) years!"

They all say that some form of life is much younger then the ground/waters they moved on.

One simply cannot offer proof of what In the beginning means.

The first creation day according to the bible just says in the beginning and light was created.

Can you prove how long that day was...?  THERE IS NO, ZERO, ZILCH, MENTION THAT IT WAS A SINGLE 24 HOUR PERIOD.
Day has so many meanings... explained ad nauseum on these threads... and totally ignored ... probably because they were never read. And not going into that again. You either have the ability to understand or you dont.

In any event... Science says the universe came about,, then the earth, and the oldest fossils were those sponges, and then cavemen....... All of this a whole long time before God breathed life into Adam.

So stop all this character name calling until you are willing to look at the other side and see why they may believe as they do.

I, as I keep saying, am not a YEC. BUT I KNOW that Adam should be considered the beginning for us because it was through and by him that we ... 6000 years later.... are in the position we are. Praise God.

Everything before Adam ... including those people in Gen 1:26 have no bearing on our story. In God's plans for us.

[DaveW]

You mean that really poor translation that every single translator to date, has embraced?

There are several things that "every single translator" has gotten wrong. 

Starting in Genesis 1.1.  There is no "the" in "In the beginning ... "

Continuing on, there is NO ONE EVER named "James" anywhere in the NT. (or in the OT either)  It is Jacob. 

And yet, every single English Translator continues to pass on those errors.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

In all my years here... (it has been more then 10) ... I do not recall ever reading you admitting you might be wrong and were willing to consider something someone has said.

If I am wrong... please tell me.

You're wrong.

My views have changed significantly since i began posting here back in 2007, and not in any small part due to consideration of things that people here have said.

But if you require an example...

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/general-discussion-forum/easter-is-upon-us-and-not-even-going-to-talk-the-pagan-end-of-things/msg1055211220/#msg1055211220

Jarrod

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

DO YOU AGREE There does not seem to be any support for the notion that there are gaps in the Genesis genealogies?

I definitely don't agree.

Genesis is organized into sections, and each of these sections is named/labeled as "the generations of ____."  It is demonstrable that some sections have different authors than others.  Each transition from one section to another represents a potential gap.

But more than that, the antediluvian genealogies do not appear to be literal!  If you look at the descendants of Cain, and compare them those of Seth... they have the same names!

Cain -> Cainan
Enoch -> Enoch
Irad -> Jared
Mehujael -> Mahalaleel
Methsael -> Methuselah
Lamech -> Lamech

When something happens six times, it's not a coincidence.  So why did this happen?  The author/editor is making a point.  The righteous lineage descends to apostasy, alongside the wicked one.  Both lines peak in the 7th generation with righteous Enoch (Enoch = established), before descending (Jared = descends) and culminating at a low point (Lamech means "low point").

Jarrod

[Amo]

I have done so many times in the past as you ask.  But here is an example. Knowing that your whole thesis of the history of the universe is tied to your interpretation of the flood of Noah, consider the following:

Gen 7:21  All flesh that moved on the earth [Hebrew - erets] perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;

Gen 41:57  The people of all the earth [Hebrew - erets] came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth.

So, Amo, based upon your extensive expertise in the translation/interpretation methods of scripture, the extent of the Joseph famine in all the earth must, without any controversy whatever, be the same extent as the flood of Noah upon all the earth.  Seriously, the earth is the earth; it can be nothing other than this earth [Hebrew - erets] as we know it today.

We have discussed this before 4WD. If we add a little context to the verse you supplied, we see that it does say the famine was over all the face of the earth, and effected all countries. And was apparently more severe in some places than others. Though this might not have entailed such a world population as we see today, being at a point in history much closer to the flood than at present. While the world was yet recovering and or recuperating from the devastating effects of the flood. Still, as the scriptures testify, it effected all countries of the world at that time. Which were probably not nearly as wide spread across the planet at that time, as they became later and are now.

Gen 41:55 And when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread: and Pharaoh said unto all the Egyptians, Go unto Joseph; what he saith to you, do. 56 And the famine was over all the face of the earth: And Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt. 57 And all countries came into Egypt to Joseph for to buy corn; because that the famine was so sore in all lands.

Context is of course important. Notice the number of times the scriptures repeat the extent of the destruction and death that the flood was going to and did produce. Seven times repeated, and seven is the number of completeness. There is no question but that, God intended that all to know, that the flood would end all life that lived upon the land of the earth.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, 1 I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.......................

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, 2 The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.............................

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, 3 to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die..........................

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; 4 and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth..........................

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 5 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 6 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 7 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Then of course there is Peter's pointed and conclusive testimony, which I will close this post with.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Alan]

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Apr 16, 2023 - 19:01:31

I am undecided if that is simply a low blow or the pot calling the kettle.

In all my years here... (it has been more then 10) ... I do not recall ever reading you admitting you might be wrong and were willing to consider something someone has said.

If I am wrong... please tell me.

And that is true for all contributors of GC... including myself, though I will admit from time to time someone will point out an error I have made and I own it.

I will say this.

Unless and until you or anyone can definitively, with no shadow of a doubt , tell us and the world what

In the beginning

actually means, with relationship to the time there was solid ground to walk on... and then there was man to walk on that ground... you cannot comment on anyone else's beliefs.

Only fact is... God created Adam on Day Six, approximately 4,000 years before Christ. And given us to be at about the 2000 from Christ to today... we are about 6,000 in our traceable lineage back to Adam.

DO YOU AGREE There does not seem to be any support for the notion that there are gaps in the Genesis genealogies?

From Adam to us there is no room for evolution. Cross breeeding animals is NOT evolution. Cross pollination of plants isn't either.

Before Adam we have been told nothing.

And because of this I refuse to entertain the thought of where Cavemen/Neanderthals play into the scheme of things.

But I do know they were not around 13.8 billion years ago.... assuming earth was part of the unverse. Others say earth is 4.6 billion years old.... A mere baby by comparason.

Wiki says... "This era extends from more than 2 million years into the past until sometime between 40,000 and 10,000 years ago."

That is a far cry from 13.8 billion.... or even 4.6 billion.

Even considering "Ontario researcher thinks 890-million-year-old fossils may be ancient relatives of sponges" https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/oldest-animal-fossils-sponge-1.6120659

That still is a heck of a long way from 13.8 billion or 4.6 billion

Britannica says "According to some Hindu texts, Earth has been around for more than 150 trillion (with a t) years!"

They all say that some form of life is much younger then the ground/waters they moved on.

One simply cannot offer proof of what In the beginning means.

The first creation day according to the bible just says in the beginning and light was created.

Can you prove how long that day was...?  THERE IS NO, ZERO, ZILCH, MENTION THAT IT WAS A SINGLE 24 HOUR PERIOD.
Day has so many meanings... explained ad nauseum on these threads... and totally ignored ... probably because they were never read. And not going into that again. You either have the ability to understand or you dont.

In any event... Science says the universe came about,, then the earth, and the oldest fossils were those sponges, and then cavemen....... All of this a whole long time before God breathed life into Adam.

So stop all this character name calling until you are willing to look at the other side and see why they may believe as they do.

I, as I keep saying, am not a YEC. BUT I KNOW that Adam should be considered the beginning for us because it was through and by him that we ... 6000 years later.... are in the position we are. Praise God.

Everything before Adam ... including those people in Gen 1:26 have no bearing on our story. In God's plans for us.

You should be directing this toward your boy, Amo, he is the one that refuses to budge on any of his views and has been known to lash out when backed into a corner.

[Amo]

He's also got that willful blindness that comes from being completely sure that what you believe is correct, and being unwilling to consider anything else.

Some would say believing God's word for what it plainly states, is blindness I suppose. Others say otherwise.

Psa 119:1  ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Psa 119:2  Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psa 119:3  They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Psa 119:4  Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
Psa 119:5  O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
Psa 119:6  Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
Psa 119:7  I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
Psa 119:8  I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
Psa 119:9  BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Psa 119:10  With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Psa 119:11  Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psa 119:12  Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:13  With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
Psa 119:14  I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
Psa 119:15  I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
Psa 119:16  I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
Psa 119:17  GIMEL. Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
Psa 119:18  Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Psa 119:19  I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
Psa 119:20  My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.
Psa 119:21  Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.
Psa 119:22  Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.
Psa 119:23  Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.
Psa 119:24  Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.
Psa 119:25  DALETH. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.
Psa 119:26  I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:27  Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.
Psa 119:28  My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.
Psa 119:29  Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
Psa 119:30  I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.
Psa 119:31  I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O LORD, put me not to shame.
Psa 119:32  I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.
Psa 119:33  HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
Psa 119:34  Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Psa 119:35  Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
Psa 119:36  Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
Psa 119:37  Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
Psa 119:38  Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.
Psa 119:39  Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.
Psa 119:40  Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.
Psa 119:41  VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.
Psa 119:42  So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.
Psa 119:43  And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.
Psa 119:44  So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
Psa 119:45  And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
Psa 119:46  I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
Psa 119:47  And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.
Psa 119:48  My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.
Psa 119:49  ZAIN. Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope.
Psa 119:50  This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.
Psa 119:51  The proud have had me greatly in derision: yet have I not declined from thy law.
Psa 119:52  I remembered thy judgments of old, O LORD; and have comforted myself.
Psa 119:53  Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.
Psa 119:54  Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.
Psa 119:55  I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.
Psa 119:56  This I had, because I kept thy precepts.
Psa 119:57  CHETH. Thou art my portion, O LORD: I have said that I would keep thy words.
Psa 119:58  I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.
Psa 119:59  I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto thy testimonies.
Psa 119:60  I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.
Psa 119:61  The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law.
Psa 119:62  At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments.
Psa 119:63  I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.
Psa 119:64  The earth, O LORD, is full of thy mercy: teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:65  TETH. Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O LORD, according unto thy word.
Psa 119:66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
Psa 119:67  Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
Psa 119:68  Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:69  The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.
Psa 119:70  Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.
Psa 119:71  It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.
Psa 119:72  The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.
Psa 119:73  JOD. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.
Psa 119:74  They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.
Psa 119:75  I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.
Psa 119:76  Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.
Psa 119:77  Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.
Psa 119:78  Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts.
Psa 119:79  Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies.
Psa 119:80  Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.
Psa 119:81  CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.
Psa 119:82  Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me?
Psa 119:83  For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; yet do I not forget thy statutes.
Psa 119:84  How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me?
Psa 119:85  The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.
Psa 119:86  All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.
Psa 119:87  They had almost consumed me upon earth; but I forsook not thy precepts.
Psa 119:88  Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.
Psa 119:89  LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Psa 119:90  Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.
Psa 119:91  They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants.
Psa 119:92  Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
Psa 119:93  I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.
Psa 119:94  I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.
Psa 119:95  The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: but I will consider thy testimonies.
Psa 119:96  I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
Psa 119:97  MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
Psa 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
Psa 119:99  I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
Psa 119:100  I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
Psa 119:101  I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
Psa 119:102  I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.
Psa 119:103  How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psa 119:104  Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Psa 119:105  NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Psa 119:106  I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.
Psa 119:107  I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.
Psa 119:108  Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.
Psa 119:109  My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.
Psa 119:110  The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts.
Psa 119:111  Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.
Psa 119:112  I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.
Psa 119:113  SAMECH. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.
Psa 119:114  Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
Psa 119:115  Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.
Psa 119:116  Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.
Psa 119:117  Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.
Psa 119:118  Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.
Psa 119:119  Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.
Psa 119:120  My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments.
Psa 119:121  AIN. I have done judgment and justice: leave me not to mine oppressors.
Psa 119:122  Be surety for thy servant for good: let not the proud oppress me.
Psa 119:123  Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.
Psa 119:124  Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:125  I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.
Psa 119:126  It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.
Psa 119:127  Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.
Psa 119:128  Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
Psa 119:129  PE. Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them.
Psa 119:130  The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Psa 119:131  I opened my mouth, and panted: for I longed for thy commandments.
Psa 119:132  Look thou upon me, and be merciful unto me, as thou usest to do unto those that love thy name.
Psa 119:133  Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.
Psa 119:134  Deliver me from the oppression of man: so will I keep thy precepts.
Psa 119:135  Make thy face to shine upon thy servant; and teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:136  Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.
Psa 119:137  TZADDI. Righteous art thou, O LORD, and upright are thy judgments.
Psa 119:138  Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful.
Psa 119:139  My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words.
Psa 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Psa 119:141  I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.
Psa 119:142  Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psa 119:143  Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights.
Psa 119:144  The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.
Psa 119:145  KOPH. I cried with my whole heart; hear me, O LORD: I will keep thy statutes.
Psa 119:146  I cried unto thee; save me, and I shall keep thy testimonies.
Psa 119:147  I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word.
Psa 119:148  Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.
Psa 119:149  Hear my voice according unto thy lovingkindness: O LORD, quicken me according to thy judgment.
Psa 119:150  They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy law.
Psa 119:151  Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
Psa 119:152  Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Psa 119:153  RESH. Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law.
Psa 119:154  Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.
Psa 119:155  Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.
Psa 119:156  Great are thy tender mercies, O LORD: quicken me according to thy judgments.
Psa 119:157  Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.
Psa 119:158  I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.
Psa 119:159  Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy lovingkindness.
Psa 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Psa 119:161  SCHIN. Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.
Psa 119:162  I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.
Psa 119:163  I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.
Psa 119:164  Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.
Psa 119:165  Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
Psa 119:166  LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
Psa 119:167  My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
Psa 119:168  I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.
Psa 119:169  TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
Psa 119:170  Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.
Psa 119:171  My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.
Psa 119:172  My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
Psa 119:173  Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
Psa 119:174  I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
Psa 119:175  Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
Psa 119:176  I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

[Amo]

Something else than what?  I have not been keeping up with this trash-heap topic.

My comments are strictly based on my previous experience interacting with you.

Well, you know what they say, "one man's faith in God's word, is another man's trash-heap" So be it.

[Amo]

You should be directing this toward your boy, Amo, he is the one that refuses to budge on any of his views and has been known to lash out when backed into a corner.

Examples please. Of being backed into a corner, or lashing out.

[Alan]

Examples please. Of being backed into a corner, or lashing out.

Let's not go there, you have a warning under your name for past behavior. 

[4WD]

We have discussed this before 4WD. If we add a little context to the verse you supplied, we see that it does say the famine was over all the face of the earth, and effected all countries. And was apparently more severe in some places than others. Though this might not have entailed such a world population as we see today, being at a point in history much closer to the flood than at present. While the world was yet recovering and or recuperating from the devastating effects of the flood. Still, as the scriptures testify, it effected all countries of the world at that time. Which were probably not nearly as wide spread across the planet at that time, as they became later and are now.

I think it is reasonable to place the Joseph famine about 2000 BC.  We know that there were significant populations in India and China much, much earlier than that.  In fact we have records of populations in the Americas much earlier than that.  So your analysis of Genesis 41:57 is more than a little lacking; it is downright laughable.

You are, of course, free to believe what you want. But I will warn you that if you present such analyses along with your presentation of Jesus Christ as Messiah, I doubt seriously that you will be well received by anyone. And I think that is a real problem today in any attempt at spreading the gospel.

[Rella]

You should be directing this toward your boy, Amo, he is the one that refuses to budge on any of his views and has been known to lash out when backed into a corner.

Alan, I try to not be selective in directing my opinions to anyone specific unless there is a need.

Amo has his opinion... and so does 4WD.

I happen to find fault with both sides..... and no I am not "claiming" that I am not in error... but I do have a fair understanding of what is, is and as such apply that to my beliefs.

And why not....   I give equal opportunity to all sides to weigh in and tell me where I am wrong.

I too will lash out when I am in a corner being challenged on subjects such subjects such as  that red and yellow do not make orange.... when this is provable kind of things.

Hit me long and hard enough and I will simply back off.

YOU men do not do that....

  Does make for some very thought provoking enjoyable reading from time to time.

We are people.... Ya want to avoid contention among members?   Perhaps we should only use AI to respond to questions and commentary

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I think it is reasonable to place the Joseph famine about 2000 BC.

That's around the beginning of the Middle Kingdom... a period of prosperity in which the Upper and Lower Kingdoms were united, the government reformed, and the Egyptians were expanding their trade presence to the south and across the Red Sea.

That doesn't seem like a fit.  We should be looking for a period in which the Egyptians had trade relationships to the north, with Canaan, and there should be evidence of some major problems - plagues, losing an army, etc.