Creation scientists

[Amo]

Amo, why do you continue to demonstrate your ignorance concerning nearly all things scientific? It really defeats your purpose of trying to support your young earth theology. Seriously, there is nothing more pitiful than the person trying to argue against something that they know absolutely nothing about.

I really don't think that Paul's message to Timothy In 2 Timothy 3:1-17 has anything whatsoever to do with your addled view of science and technology.

But if you insist on that application, there are many good solid faithful Christians who likely see it talking about you simply because you have failed to see what Paul is actually talking about.

The real "fallen, extremely limited humanity" in this discussion is you.

Same old, same old, same old. As if I myself make up all of the problems with deep time evolution addressed in the continuous articles I supply written by others, many of whom are professed scientists as well. Whom you no doubt feel very superior to as well, because they consider your views as every bit ludicrous as I do. No sir, we are not all the ignorant uninformed intellectual dwarfs you claim, because we disagree with your staunch faith in fallen humanities best guesses concerning the countless eons of the unobservable past. Nor do we have the reader comprehension issues you wish to hang over our heads.

You are correct in that there are many who consider themselves good and solid "Christians" who consistently mutilate the holy scriptures according to their own chosen faiths and our understanding. Just as the scriptures you are contending with me about, address. They have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. They excuse their own sins as necessary to their life styles, or refuse that God's law still has any need to be obeyed. They choose to believe many non scriptural teachings from other religions, philosophies, secularists, scientists and so forth, while maintaining that they are authentic "Christians". This they may well do, and do in this world. They are not however, authentic bible believing Christians. And it will not be well for them in the end.

I do not mean by this that I am any better than them. Certainly not. None but God knows my own sins and miserable condition apart from His grace. Praise His merciful and all knowing unconditional love for all of us. Nevertheless, His word has declared that there are unforgivable sins, the greatest of which is the rejection of truth. Because the rejection of truth is the rejection of the Holy Spirit of God, which sin cannot be forgiven as such is blasphemy against God. Who Himself stretched forth His hands, feet, and body unto crucifixion, for the sake of witnessing the unadulterated truth to all of humanity. Which is that the Word of God is the truth that cannot be denied by the created unto salvation. All such only leads to damnation. And all must choose where their faith really lies.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Either in the endless and prideful speculations of fallen humanity who do always reject and despise the Word of God, or in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is the WORD OF GOD. Through whom also all things were created and are sustained. Who also verified and established the holy scripture as the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth. By which all of humanity will be judged. Nor is that WORD beyond comprehension at all, but was plainly stated for all to easily understand, though the majority play with it as they please unto their own destruction.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Neither the above scriptures of the apostle Paul, nor myself, or anyone else, are bound by your claims that they do not address deep time evolutionists at all. Limit your own understanding as you wish according to the faith you have chosen, but the WORD OF GOD is much deeper than you or I or any can begin to comprehend the actual depths of. Nor all that they actually do address. I see it plain as the day, addressing the literal, figurative, or so called "scientific" idols fallen humanity has, does, and will continue to place before God to the very end.

Psa 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. 5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Exo 20:8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

You reject the above plain and simple straight forward testimonies of scripture, because they do not fit with your chosen faith in deep time evolutionary concepts. A faith shared by countless atheists and secular humanists in exact defiance of the word of God. You must cast doubt upon these plain and simple statements of scripture, because they cannot mean what they plainly and simply state, according to your faith in the so called sciences or wisdom of this world. This is your choice. No one is ignorant, or does not have a clue, because they disagree with you but in your own vain imaginations. You simply refuse to believe what God spoke to an entire nation from His own mouth, and wrote for them with His own finger twice, unless it be bent to fit your faith in the theory of deep time evolution. This is your choice, which exists completely outside the testimony of holy scripture anywhere at all.

You say I am or choose to be ignorant concerning your chosen truth in deep time evolution. I say you have chosen to be ignorant concerning the plain and simple testimony of holy scripture even straight from the mouth and hand of God, regarding special creation by Him. May God judge between us, and have mercy upon our souls, as He will according to holy scripture.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 

[Amo]

@ Amo,

Goodmorning:

I wonder if you are at all familiar with the Ethiopian Bible.

It has been said The Ethiopian Bible is one of the oldest versions of the Bible in existence. It contains several ancient texts that are not found in other versions, such as the Book of Enoch and the Book of Jubilees. These texts are believed to have been written before the Christian era and provide valuable insights into the beliefs and practices of early Jewish and Christian communities. So, while the Ethiopian Bible is not the oldest version of the Bible overall, it does contain some of the oldest and most unique texts within the Biblical tradition.

It dates back to the 4th century.

Anyway, there is are copies you can find online with a search but also there is a copy in our library of congress translated into English. I have provided 2 sources. The second is in more book form that you can click and turn the pages to compare.

The one in the library of congress shows shots of specific pages with English explanation or translation below.

Because I have never mastered being able to copy shots of anything here... I can copy and past the writing below.

I have chosen several pages to copy here, and at the link  you can see what it is.

Because I know and actually understand your creation beliefs that all was done in 144 consecutive hours, and then God rested on the next day.... Just look and see what that country believes as is written in a book far older then say KJV.

https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcmassbookdig.revelationofgene00roth/?st=gallery

Image 2 of Revelation of Genesis. "The lost ages." From Ethiopian manuscripts of an anonymous, in ...
Qass- Book. COPYRIGHT DEPOSIT

Image 5 of Revelation of Genesis. "The lost ages." From Ethiopian manuscripts of an anonymous, in ...
REVELATION OF GENESIS. THE LOST AGES. FROM ETHIOPIAN MANUSCRIPTS OF AN ANONYxMOUS, IN EIGHT VOLUxMES. TRANSLATED FROM AMHA^ IC IN ENGLISH BY FR;- ROT HER. FIRST VOLUME. CAMBRIDGE: THE HARVARD PRINTING CO.MPANY,...

Image 6 of Revelation of Genesis. "The lost ages." From Ethiopian manuscripts of an anonymous, in ...
BSi235 Entered according to Act of Congress in the year 1890, in the Office of the Librarian of Congress at Washington, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Image 11 of Revelation of Genesis. "The lost ages." From Ethiopian manuscripts of an anonymous, in ...
THE LOST AGES. 5 there was evening, and there was morning, a second eternity. On the face of heaven a great many firmaments were created that are far mightier than the firmament...

Image 12 of Revelation of Genesis. "The lost ages." From Ethiopian manuscripts of an anonymous, in ...6 REVELATION OF GENESIS. the earth, the dwelling of man, that it was good, even of the third eternity creation, bat that God saw how the second eteinity creation was good it...

Image 13 of Revelation of Genesis. "The lost ages." From Ethiopian manuscripts of an anonymous, in ...
THE LOST AGES. 7 it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning, fourth eternity. And God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moved, which the...

Image 15 of Revelation of Genesis. "The lost ages." From Ethiopian manuscripts of an anonymous, in ...
THE LOST AGES. ished; and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made, and he rested on the seventh day from all...

Image 16 of Revelation of Genesis. "The lost ages." From Ethiopian manuscripts of an anonymous, in ...
10 REVELATTON OF GENESIS. eternity until fourth eternity connectedly, and from fourth eternity until fifth eternity connectedly, and from fifth eternity until sixth eternity connectedly, and on the seventh eternity God rested...


In
https://archive.org/details/revelationofgene00roth/page/n5/mode/2up

you will see a book and if you click on either page it will turn and you will find reading them to be close to those above except for the first day this one does not say eternity but says "ONE DAY"  A little easier to read....

Anyway... these are fascinating and interesting.

Haven't heard much about it. A quick look though, raises some flags of concern. First it apparently contains 88 books, 22 more than most accepted versions. Among which are several rejected by many throughout history as authentic scripture. The Pope also has a good deal of positive input regarding it, which I consider another red flag, concerning the Vatican's continuous war against scripture throughout history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDQWuGXmYUc

The verses themselves changing the meaning of each day to an eternity not only poses two completely opposite extremes, completely clouding the meaning of the texts, but simply making no sense at all. Since there is no end to an eternity, then every day of creation would of course still be going on without end. This is most certainly not the intent of the book of Genesis, as God most obviously created the time table we all live and exist within by constructing and defining a day as an evening and a morning. If the opening of scripture concerning creation can mean such opposite extremes as the difference between one measurable day of basically 24 hours, and eternity at the same time, then who can know and or define it or anything thereafter with any certainty. Then of course, how could God judge the world according to their acceptance or not of His word, which apparently has a range of infinite possible meaning from the get go.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Concepts regarding eternal events, do not fit into contexts which specify an end. let alone denote beginning and ending divisions within defined parameters which each represent an eternity as well. Such as one day ending and another beginning afterwards. Simply does not make much sense.   The interpretation also once again, makes the fourth commandment a lie spoken by the mouth of God and written with His own finger to the entire nation of Israel. God is not the author of such chaos or confusion.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

[4WD]

Same old, same old, same old. As if I myself make up all of the problems with deep time evolution addressed in the continuous articles I supply written by others, many of whom are professed scientists as well.

"Problems with deep time evolution" is the stuff that brings more accurate and more reliable answers. It is the very basis of science that you fail to understand, and that because science at its core completely escapes you. The thought processes that lead to successful results is, it would seem, completely and wholly beyond your capacity.

[Rella]

Haven't heard much about it. A quick look though, raises some flags of concern. First it apparently contains 88 books, 22 more than most accepted versions. Among which are several rejected by many throughout history as authentic scripture. The Pope also has a good deal of positive input regarding it, which I consider another red flag, concerning the Vatican's continuous war against scripture throughout history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDQWuGXmYUc

The verses themselves changing the meaning of each day to an eternity not only poses two completely opposite extremes, completely clouding the meaning of the texts, but simply making no sense at all. Since there is no end to an eternity, then every day of creation would of course still be going on without end. This is most certainly not the intent of the book of Genesis, as God most obviously created the time table we all live and exist within by constructing and defining a day as an evening and a morning. If the opening of scripture concerning creation can mean such opposite extremes as the difference between one measurable day of basically 24 hours, and eternity at the same time, then who can know and or define it or anything thereafter with any certainty. Then of course, how could God judge the world according to their acceptance or not of His word, which apparently has a range of infinite possible meaning from the get go.

@Amo

I agree with everything you said.... but I posted this because it first is among the older bibles and was not influenced, as far as we know, by anyone trying to rework the current translations to make them seem like they make more sense since Jimmy ordered his.

Absolutely, Frankie's involvement is enough to make one question it...

And I have no clue what they meant by eternity unless they had a different notion on that.

But it still is interesting to see what is out there or was.

NOW... the last one that I was poking through today. (I am done for now) is Genesis 1 from the dead sea scrolls.

I have read that it is likely the most accurate provided one can trust the translators to be inspired and not trying to influence.

It seems like they found 7 (seven) for Gen 1... not all the same length
but I bolded red what says to me a different wording...

https://dssenglishbible.com/chapterview.htm

Genesis 1 from Scroll 1Q1 Genesis

18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 God said, "Let the waters abound with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the sky." 21 God created the large sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind. God saw that it was good.

 

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q2 Genesisb

1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep and God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.

3 God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw the light, and saw that it was good. God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day", and the darkness he called "night". There was evening and there was morning, the first day.

6 God said, "Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 God made the expanse, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky". There was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together to one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land "earth", and the gathering together of the waters he called "seas". God saw that it was good. 11 God said, "Let the earth yield grass, herbs yielding seeds, and fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with their seeds in it, on the earth"; and it was so. 12 The earth yielded grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, with their seeds in it, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14 God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs to mark seasons, days, and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light to the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 God said, "Let the waters abound with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the sky." 21 God created the large sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind. God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 God said, "Let the earth produce living creatures after their kind, livestock, creeping things, and animals of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. 25 God made the animals of the earth after their kind, and the livestock after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind. God saw that it was good.

26 God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them. God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

 

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q4 Genesisd

18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 God said, "Let the waters abound with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the sky." 21 God created the large sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind. God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 God said, "Let the earth produce living creatures after their kind, livestock, creeping things, and animals of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. 25 God made the animals of the earth after their kind, and the livestock after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind. God saw that it was good.

26 God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them.

 

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q7 Genesisg

1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep and God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.

[..]

4 God saw the light, and saw that it was good. God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day", and the darkness he called "night". There was evening and there was morning, the first day.

6 God said, "Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 God made the expanse, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky". There was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together to one place, and let the dry land appear;" and it was so. 10 God called the dry land "earth", and the gathering together of the waters he called "seas". God saw that it was good. 11 God said, "Let the earth yield grass, herbs yielding seeds, and fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with their seeds in it, on the earth;" and it was so.

[..]

13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14 God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs to mark seasons, days, and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth;" and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light to the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 God said, "Let the waters abound with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the sky." 21 God created the large sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind. God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."

 

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q8 Genesish1

8 God called the expanse "sky". There was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together to one place collection, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. 10 God called the dry land "earth", and the gathering together of the waters he called "seas". God saw that it was good.

 

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q10 Genesisk

9 God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together to one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. And the waters under the sky were gathered together to their place, and the dry land appeared.[1]

[..]

13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day. 14 God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs to mark seasons, days, and years;[2] 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He also made the stars.

[..]

26 God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them. God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

 

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q483 Genesis

28 God blessed them. God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

 So we have 7 scrolls of varying lengths that talk of Genesis, but the all have one unified area.

We have "THE" first day

Then they all seem to switch over to say ...

"A" second, "A" third, "A" fourth, "A" fifth day... I found no sixth mentioned.

So to me this reads that God started the creation on the first day... THE.

But saying he continued on "A" second day does not tell me that the second day was the next day it could have been another day in the week.
Say he started on Monday, then continued on Thur... or even the following week.

Certainly every account we read agrees that he did stop His work on the 7th day...see below

4 scrolls of Gen 2 but only 1 has about the 7th day

https://dssenglishbible.com/genesis%202.htm

Genesis 2 from Scroll 4Q2 Genesisb

14 The name of the third river is Hiddekel. This is the one which flows in front of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates. 15 Yahweh God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it. 16 Yahweh God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die."

18 Yahweh God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make him a helper comparable to him." 19 Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every animal of the field, and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called every living creature became its name.

 

Genesis 2 from Scroll 4Q7 Genesisg

6 but a mist went up from the earth, and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

Genesis 2 from Scroll 4Q8a Genesish2

17 but you shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die."

18 Yahweh God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make him a helper comparable to him."

 

Genesis 2 from Scroll 4Q10 Genesisk

1 The heavens, the earth, and all their vast array were finished. 2 On the seventh day God finished his work which he had done; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. 3 God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy, because he rested in it from all his work of creation which he had done.

 Now... when you read this wording....

KJV says this way. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Does it not almost sound like God did a little work on the 7th before calling it a day?

Anyway...I do not believe the earth is 13 plus billion years old.

And I am not in the evolution camp...

But I can be convinced that the earth and stars and all were around longer then when God made life.

Just like the idea from the Ethiopians of eternities makes zero sense to us... this

KJV Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

That seems odd

LSV says

Literal Standard Version
These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth in their being created, in the day of YHWH God's making the earth and the heavens;

Young's Literal Translation
These are births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens;

Smith's Literal Translation
These the generations of the heavens and the earth in creating them, in the day of Jehovah God's making the earth and the heavens.

Douay-Rheims Bible
These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth:

Catholic Public Domain Version
These are the generations of heaven and earth, when they were created, in the day when the Lord God made heaven and earth,

New Revised Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Lamsa Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the heavens and the earth.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
These are the generations of Heaven and of Earth when they were created, in the day that LORD JEHOVAH God made the Heavens and Earth,

JPS Tanakh 1917
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
This is the book of the generation of heaven and earth, when they were made, in the day in which the Lord God made the heaven and the earth,

[Amo]

Yes, all was finished by the seventh day.

Gen 2:1 So the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts (inhabitants). 2 And by the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested (ceased) on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it [as His own, that is, set it apart as holy from other days], because in it He rested from all His work which He had created and done. 4 This is the history of [the origin of] the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day [that is, days of creation] that the [a]Lord God made the earth and the heavens (AMP)

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 And God blessed (spoke good of) the seventh day, set it apart as His own, and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all His work which He had created and done. 4 This is the history of the heavens and of the earth when they were created. In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens— (AMPC)

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, along with everything in them. 2 On the seventh day God was finished with his work which he had made, so he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 God blessed the seventh day and separated it as holy; because on that day God rested from all his work which he had created, so that it itself could produce. (A: iv, S: ii) 4 Here is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created. On the day when Adonai, God, made earth and heaven, (CJB)

[Amo]

"Problems with deep time evolution" is the stuff that brings more accurate and more reliable answers. It is the very basis of science that you fail to understand, and that because science at its core completely escapes you. The thought processes that lead to successful results is, it would seem, completely and wholly beyond your capacity.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

By your above words and testimony therefore, shall you be justified before God, or condemned. So be it upon all of us, as we have testified, whether we have borne a true or false witness. Amen.

[4WD]

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

By your above words and testimony therefore, shall you be justified before God, or condemned. So be it upon all of us, as we have testified, whether we have borne a true or false witness. Amen.

You lost me. All I really said above is that you do not understand the basic process involved in the scientific method, particularly as it is applied to the science of astronomy and cosmology. I think that you have demonstrated that over and over again in discussions concerning science and things scientific generally. It seems to me that you do so with some element of pride.  So while I have no argument with Matthew 12:36, I fail to see the relevance of it in the present discussion.

[Alan]

You lost me. All I really said above is that you do not understand the basic process involved in the scientific method, particularly as it is applied to the science of astronomy and cosmology. I think that you have demonstrated that over and over again in discussions concerning science and things scientific generally. It seems to me that you do so with some element of pride.  So while I have no argument with Matthew 12:36, I fail to see the relevance of it in the present discussion.

Amo is just like the Liberals, he cherry picks the things that fit his own views and runs with them, despite all of the young earth and anti-evolution theories being heavily debunked. If we have learned anything as a species, it is that evidence prevails in all matters of discussion, and some dude on the internet posting YouTube videos isn't it. 

[Rella]

Amo is just like the Liberals, he cherry picks the things that fit his own views and runs with them, despite all of the young earth and anti-evolution theories being heavily debunked. If we have learned anything as a species, it is that evidence prevails in all matters of discussion, and some dude on the internet posting YouTube videos isn't it.

But when scientists change based on new evidence, it is only a current theory... not proof.

Why doesnt someone explain if the earth is 13+ billion years old, and the oldest recorded fossil is  (from AI) The oldest fossils are believed to be around 3.5 billion years old, with some evidence suggesting life may have emerged as early as 4.1 billion years ago. The earliest direct evidence of life comes from stromatolite fossils found in Australia.

You have a gap of around 10 billion years of no life whatso ever?

Do those scientist ever hint that God created those fossils? I have never read that.

So what would or could have happend that caused them to exist in the first place.

I have no trouble believing the earth itself was around longer then first man. But if we trust the bible, and as most believe that first man was Adam we only have about a 6,000 plus span that may well be underway to ending sooner then later.

Now, can I picture Jehova sitting at His workbench in heaven makeing
forms of life and just tossing them to earth to see which would survive or would not... before he got the idea of mankind, animals that Adam and Noah knew, birds, fish, pigweed and dandelions.

Its possible, but for what ever reason scientists say things happened then change that up a bit now and again...something is way off.

I have zero doubt that God is the creator of everything earth.

Universe and beyond.

I am not certain that mankind was in mind when all the other came about.

Someone could convince me... dont hollar at me... that mankind came about as part of the feud between our Heavenly Father and Lucifer....
Job being a minor example of a larger intent.

But for whatever reason... here we are.

I do not understand why Gen 1 was written the way it was ... Gen 2
carries a similar vibe but not total.

Gen. 1 ... no matter how you slice it says day # or #day or whatever wording a translation gives it

Gen 2 : 4 says These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Which most say it is a recap of Gen 1.... BUT THERE IS NO WAY THAT
YOU COULD CALL A DAY AS A GENERATION

[4WD]

But when scientists change based on new evidence, it is only a current theory... not proof.

Why doesnt someone explain if the earth is 13+ billion years old, and the oldest recorded fossil is  (from AI) The oldest fossils are believed to be around 3.5 billion years old, with some evidence suggesting life may have emerged as early as 4.1 billion years ago. The earliest direct evidence of life comes from stromatolite fossils found in Australia.

You have a gap of around 10 billion years of no life whatso ever?

First, I believe that time is a physical creation. In the Spiritual realm beyond the physical realm there is no such thing has time.  But, whether that is true or not, what is a mere 10 billion years to eternal God?  That is Peter's point in 2 Peter 3:8. Time means nothing to God.  A gap of 10 billion earth years means nothing to God.

Do those scientist ever hint that God created those fossils? I have never read that.

I doubt that any scientist would claim that God created fossils.  Many scientist do believe that God created this physical universe.  But that is not a theory based upon science.  That is based upon the theology of faith. As I have said so many times here over the years, creation ex nihilo is not a subject that can be studied as a science. The term or phrase, creation science, is an oxymoron.

So what would or could have happend that caused them to exist in the first place.

Only God could have caused it.  No matter how anyone explains the existence of this physical universe, it must rationally eventually be traced back to a non-physical origin.

I have no trouble believing the earth itself was around longer then first man. But if we trust the bible, and as most believe that first man was Adam we only have about a 6,000 plus span that may well be underway to ending sooner then later.

Again, time places no limits on God.  Six thousand years or sixty thousand years is not any real issue to God. From Adam to Jesus was about four thousand years.  My question is why would God take four thousand years to bring salvation to mankind only to end everything in a mere two thousand or so years?  But here again, time is a physical measure, not a spiritual measure.

Now, can I picture Jehova sitting at His workbench in heaven makeing forms of life and just tossing them to earth to see which would survive or would not... before he got the idea of mankind, animals that Adam and Noah knew, birds, fish, pigweed and dandelions.

Its possible, but for what ever reason scientists say things happened then change that up a bit now and again...something is way off.

I have zero doubt that God is the creator of everything earth.

Universe and beyond.

I think God created whatever physical processes gave rise to the universe from its beginning to the present existence as we now perceive it.  I think the physical evidence of the billions of years is too overwhelming to deny.  And I don't believe that God would create this brute non-biological universe in a way that evidence is in any way deceptive.  I believe the same is true of the biological universe. As I have said before, I believe that the Genesis account of creation speaks specifically of three unique ex nihilo creation events.  The first is the stuff from which everything is made, i.e., mass, energy and the natural law govening the functioning of that mass and energy. I have no reason to doubt the physical evidence that says that He did that in some way describable as the instant of a "big bang" which was the origin of it all.

The second ex nihilo creation event is biological life, the stuff of all living things on earth or the entire universe if there is life beyond earth. For what it is worth, I don't personally believe there is life beyond the earth.

The third ex nihilo creation event is the spirits of man.  Given that we are talking about non-physical, spiritual "things", we really haven't a clue about that. We have no experiential way to examine that.  We take that on pure faith and faith alone.  We cannot examine in any way the realistic existence of our spirits.

I am not certain that mankind was in mind when all the other came about.

I believe that the entire physical universe and physical realm as we know it was created for the single purpose of bringing man into the picture.  I believe that God created this universe as a place for human beings; that we are the reason for the universe.  God wanted to establish a kingdom of "spirit beings" who would freely choose to know and love Him. I believe that is the message of Romans 8:28-30. It is those who freely love Him that God chose, through his foreknowledge of who they would be, to predestine, call, justify and glorify to be with Him in the kingdom.

[Rella]

First, I believe that time is a physical creation. In the Spiritual realm beyond the physical realm there is no such thing has time.  But, whether that is true or not, what is a mere 10 billion years to eternal God?

There has to be a reason that God would have waited 13plus billion years after the universe came about  .... to create cows, and sheep, and fish, and birds, and man.

We have not been around even 10,000 years.

Of course time means nothing to God.

The problem is why the gap?

IMO the way genesis 1 was worded indicates that that part of creation that life as we know it could well have been after the modeling clay and supper putty or big bang....

We know there is so much out there that we, as alive, will never be able to see. When the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters
we also do not know if He was looking for dry land that already came
from the "big bang" ... (dont care what science says.. their explanation does not leave me warm and fuzzy.... ) or if he was looking for a place to toss the ball of mud we walk on...
Or manybe He picked up pieces from other planets as he was gliding along to make that ball that eventually was called earth and that is why "scientists date it the way they do.

Or maybe it really is among the youngest, and therefore is why the fossils date so much younger.

The universe is said to be 13.8 million or so... but

 That is Peter's point in 2 Peter 3:8. Time means nothing to God.  A gap of 10 billion earth years means nothing to God.
I doubt that any scientist would claim that God created fossils.  Many scientist do believe that God created this physical universe.  But that is not a theory based upon science.  That is based upon the theology of faith. As I have said so many times here over the years, creation ex nihilo is not a subject that can be studied as a science. The term or phrase, creation science, is an oxymoron.
Only God could have caused it.  No matter how anyone explains the existence of this physical universe, it must rationally eventually be traced back to a non-physical origin.
Again, time places no limits on God.  Six thousand years or sixty thousand years is not any real issue to God. From Adam to Jesus was about four thousand years.

Until I die and I am told I am wrong, or until some scroll that is proved to be the read thing is found and we have a more indepth explanation I will continue to believe that life was created where it is on earth and when over Lucifer's spat with Jehovah.

And we got created and somehow in the middle of good v evil from that where "free will" came into play as to who would follow who.

And the decision to provide a "savior" after a certain length of time
was part of the master plan of the Heavenly Fathers.

If Israel had not messed up so badly in those 4000 years there would have been no need for Jesus to have been sent "only" for those lost sheep. But they did and He was .....

Enough of that because I am not going to debate what I can see.



 My question is why would God take four thousand years to bring salvation to mankind only to end everything in a mere two thousand or so years?  But here again, time is a physical measure, not a spiritual measure.
I think God created whatever physical processes gave rise to the universe from its beginning to the present existence as we now perceive it.  I think the physical evidence of the billions of years is too overwhelming to deny.  And I don't believe that God would create this brute non-biological universe in a way that evidence is in any way deceptive.  I believe the same is true of the biological universe. As I have said before, I believe that the Genesis account of creation speaks specifically of three unique ex nihilo creation events.  The first is the stuff from which everything is made, i.e., mass, energy and the natural law govening the functioning of that mass and energy. I have no reason to doubt the physical evidence that says that He did that in some way describable as the instant of a "big bang" which was the origin of it all.

The second ex nihilo creation event is biological life, the stuff of all living things on earth or the entire universe if there is life beyond earth. For what it is worth, I don't personally believe there is life beyond the earth.

The third ex nihilo creation event is the spirits of man.  Given that we are talking about non-physical, spiritual "things", we really haven't a clue about that. We have no experiential way to examine that.  We take that on pure faith and faith alone.  We cannot examine in any way the realistic existence of our spirits.
I believe that the entire physical universe and physical realm as we know it was created for the single purpose of bringing man into the picture.  I believe that God created this universe as a place for human beings; that we are the reason for the universe.  God wanted to establish a kingdom of "spirit beings" who would freely choose to know and love Him. I believe that is the message of Romans 8:28-30. It is those who freely love Him that God chose, through his foreknowledge of who they would be, to predestine, call, justify and glorify to be with Him in the kingdom.

Maybe. I still have the time problem of age of earth and life coming on board here.

God had a plan. We will never know this side of life

[4WD]

There has to be a reason that God would have waited 13plus billion years after the universe came about  .... to create cows, and sheep, and fish, and birds, and man.

That is how long it took for the natural processes God put in place for the universe to get from the big bang to the condition 6000 years ago suitable for the beginning of the man with a spirit.

When the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters
we also do not know if He was looking for dry land that already came from the "big bang" ...

I believe the Spirit of God hovering over the waters is what we now refer to as "inflation" in which the universe experienced really, really rapid expansion.  You can read about that elsewhere.

And the decision to provide a "savior" after a certain length of time
was part of the master plan of the Heavenly Fathers.

If Israel had not messed up so badly in those 4000 years there would have been no need for Jesus to have been sent "only" for those lost sheep. But they did and He was .....

God in His omniscience knew exactly what would happen and it was incorporated as part of the plan from the very outset and beginning.  Again, the four thousand years was how long it took for all that needed to happen and that was necessary for it to be the "right time" (Rom 5:6) for Jesus to come to earth and become the perfect lamb of sacrifice for our redemption.

[Rella]

That is how long it took for the natural processes God put in place for the universe to get from the big bang to the condition 6000 years ago suitable for the beginning of the man with a spirit.
I believe the Spirit of God hovering over the waters is what we now refer to as "inflation" in which the universe experienced really, really rapid expansion.  You can read about that elsewhere.

God in His omniscience knew exactly what would happen and it was incorporated as part of the plan from the very outset and beginning.  Again, the four thousand years was how long it took for all that needed to happen and that was necessary for it to be the "right time" (Rom 5:6) for Jesus to come to earth and become the perfect lamb of sacrifice for our redemption.

I can see the logic in your 1st and 3rd points. Not the 2nd so much.

But thats ok....

I am not so curious to go looking into things for other opinions...YET!

[Amo]

You lost me. All I really said above is that you do not understand the basic process involved in the scientific method, particularly as it is applied to the science of astronomy and cosmology. I think that you have demonstrated that over and over again in discussions concerning science and things scientific generally. It seems to me that you do so with some element of pride.  So while I have no argument with Matthew 12:36, I fail to see the relevance of it in the present discussion.

What you believe, preach, and teach, is found nowhere in scripture at all. To the contrary, it openly contradicts many plain statements in the holy scriptures. Your entire accepted and preached deep time evolutionary theories are built upon the extremely limited observations and concluding input of many an atheist and even despisers of the word of God, and God Himself.

According to scripture itself, if you actually believed its testimony, humanity is kept within a box of existence that cannot even see and observe the greater part of what exists even all around them. Yet you believe along with vast multitudes of the ungodly who believe no scripture at all, that fallen humanity can and does make proper conclusions from the little they can observe concerning vast eons of unobservable time. Who continuously prove themselves wrong, over, and over, and over, and over again. Whose predictions even right now are being proved wrong, or being brought into serious question, by much of the new observable data from the James Webb and other sources.

As usual again, and again, and again, as I have pointed out so many times on these very boards concerning one deep time incorrect observation after another, after another, the problematic issues of complexity are plaguing deep timers. On and on and on it goes. The same old story over, and over, and over again. Now in the field of cosmology as well. To much complexity, to early in the present deep timers age predictions, to the effect of moving the dates back radically once again. Because those of the misplaced deep timer evolutionary faith, refuse to even consider special creation by God with complexity from the beginning. So as scripture states, such are in fact ever learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of truth.

No sir, I am not the one who does not have a clue. And what is your accusation accusing me of, but not having a clue about the "sciences" so called, of fallen and truly ignorant humanity. I will take that insult as a compliment, from one eaten up with the supposed wisdom of this world. Which I say again, is concerning things found nowhere in scripture at all, but exists only as contradictory to the same.

Jer 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. 6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might. 7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee. 8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities. 9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men. 10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. 11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. 12  He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures. 14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

Deep time evolutionary theory is just another brutish and foolish idol constructed by those of this world who think themselves to be wise. The work of their own vain imaginings, carved from just another tree, and fashioned to their own liking and image. The supposed evolutionary tree of life, from which all creeping and crawling things, humanity supposedly sprung. And Big Bangs from which all of the cosmos supposedly formed. This is the ignorant knowledge they profess and choose above the Word of God, Who came and dwelt among us, confirming and establishing the testimony of holy scripture for all true believers for all time. Amen.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. 

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Where is the supposed wisdom of deep time evolutionary theory from? Where did it develop, and who constructed it? It is found nowhere in scripture at all, but is plainly contradicted by the testimony of holy scripture. It is among the myriad of claims of supposed wisdom, by the supposed wise of this world. All of which is foolishness to God. In the end, God will reveal who really did not have a clue. By our words and testimony in line with God's word and testimony or not, shall we all be judged.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

[Amo]

Amo is just like the Liberals, he cherry picks the things that fit his own views and runs with them, despite all of the young earth and anti-evolution theories being heavily debunked. If we have learned anything as a species, it is that evidence prevails in all matters of discussion, and some dude on the internet posting YouTube videos isn't it.

Yeah! Alan, and his posts on these internet boards is it! Come on people. Get with it, and acknowledge the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, of the word of Alan. Amen.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wjg0AwIu5M

Science increasingly pointing to creation.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTqo0zAZqg8

Dinosaur soft tissue prevalent, not rare.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZplDBGVKrY

James Webb and creationist models and predictions.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcCDF0zHzLE

More James Webb revelations disrupting Big Bang narratives of evolving and or expanding universe. Either the universe is much older than previously theorized, or there are repetitive big bangs, evolutions, and die offs. Or another or other universes altogether. Or who knows what according to the endless speculations and theorizing of the "wisdoms" that be of this world. The "sciences" so called of the ignorant and ever guessing speculations of fallen humanity from within the box God has placed us within since the fall. The "wise of this world" ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth.

As in the truth and accuracy of God's word regarding special creation by God. Organized and functioning complexity from the beginning, created and sustained by the infinite wisdom and intellect of God Himself. 

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxH59z6dRVA

Answers in Genesis Canada. The Endless Gaps in Evolution Atheists Hate Talking About.

[4WD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcCDF0zHzLE

More James Webb revelations disrupting Big Bang narratives of evolving and or expanding universe. Either the universe is much older than previously theorized, or there are repetitive big bangs, evolutions, and die offs. Or another or other universes altogether. Or who knows what according to the endless speculations and theorizing of the "wisdoms" that be of this world. The "sciences" so called of the ignorant and ever guessing speculations of fallen humanity from within the box God has placed us within since the fall. The "wise of this world" ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth.

As in the truth and accuracy of God's word regarding special creation by God. Organized and functioning complexity from the beginning, created and sustained by the infinite wisdom and intellect of God Himself.

You just keep doing it.

[Amo]

Yep.

https://biblicalscienceinstitute.com/origins/creation-cosmology-confirmed/

Quoted article below from link above. Bold and underlined highlighted areas are mine.

by Dr. Jason Lisle | Sep 9, 2022 | Astronomy, Origins

Creation Cosmology Confirmed!

Preliminary data and images from the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) challenge secular ideas of galaxy formation and the big bang, but confirm biblical creation.

The James Webb Space Telescope is now operational, properly calibrated, and actively collecting new images of the universe.  On July 11-12, 2022, the first images from the $10 billion space telescope were released to the public.  These included infrared images of Stephan's Quintet (a collection of five galaxies), the Southern Ring Nebula, and portions of the Carina Nebula.  Each picture is a stunning illustration of the glory of the Lord (Psalm 19:1).  But one of the most interesting images from a scientific perspective is a deep field image showing the most distant galaxies in the universe so far detected.  This deep field image shows thousands of "mature" galaxies at distances far beyond what secular astronomers had expected.  These images are consistent with what biblical creationists predicted.

A Brief Review of Webb

The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) was launched on December 25, 2021.  This telescope is often considered the successor to the overwhelmingly successful Hubble Space Telescope.  But the Webb is significantly larger; this gives it greater light-gathering power, meaning it can take images of fainter objects than Hubble and in less time.  Most significantly, the Webb is designed to detect infrared wavelengths – those that are "below" red and therefore invisible to human vision.  This is because one of the primary purposes of the Webb is to collect images of the most distant galaxies.  And these galaxies are highly redshifted – meaning their visible light has been shifted into the infrared.  In this sense, the James Webb Space Telescope compensates for such redshifts, showing (roughly) what these galaxies would look like if they were nearby.

In general, the farther away a galaxy is from us, the more its light is redshifted.  This pattern is called the Hubble Law and is thought to be due to the expansion of the universe.  Such an expansion would give all galaxies a tendency to move away from other galaxies as the entire universe increases in size.  Astronomers can measure the redshift of a galaxy very precisely using spectroscopy.  Basically, the light of the galaxy is broken into its constituent wavelengths and the shift of the wavelengths associated with known elements (like hydrogen) reveals the redshift.  There is a formula that gives us the approximate distance of any galaxy based on its measured redshift. Therefore, we know the distance to any distant galaxy if its spectrum has been measured.  In fact, there are online apps where you can enter a redshift value (z) and they will compute the distance.

Since the JWST is designed to probe deep into infrared wavelengths, it can detect distant galaxies with very large redshifts.  By the Hubble law, these galaxies must be extremely distant.  So, the JWST is designed to probe galaxies that are too distant to be detected by Hubble.  This is very relevant to the issue of origins because creationists and secularists made different predictions about what the JWST would find in the distant universe.  These differences are due to our different ideas about the origin of the universe.

The Secular Story

The standard secular model of origins proposes that the universe began in a big bang approximately 13.8 billion years ago.  At that time, all of space and all energy within it were compressed into a point of essentially no size called a singularity.  This point rapidly expanded, carrying extremely high temperature energy with it.  As the energy filled an increasingly large volume of space, its temperature dropped, and particles were formed from the energy.  These particles include protons, neutrons, and electrons.  By 300,000 years after the big bang, the temperature of the universe cooled enough for electrons to bind to nuclei, forming the first atoms.  These would be hydrogen, helium, and small amounts of lithium.  The heavier elements did not yet exist.

According to the secular model, by around 300 million years after the big bang, gravity acted on small regions of higher density within the gas, causing these regions to collapse into the first stars.  These stars gravitationally attracted each other to form the first galaxies.  Such galaxies would be low-mass and irregular, but gradually matured with time into larger spiral or elliptical galaxies.

In the secular story, the first generation of stars are called population III (population 3), and contained only the three lightest elements (hydrogen, helium, and lithium) because the heavy elements did not yet exist.  Some of these first-generation stars are said to be large enough to eventually fuse the lighter elements in their core into heavier elements, like carbon, oxygen, iron, and so on.  These stars exploded (an event called a supernova) and spread these heavier elements into space.  The next generation of stars (population II) therefore contain some of the heavier elements in addition to hydrogen and helium.

Secular astronomers believe that light takes billions of years to travel from the most distant galaxies to earth.  This is because they are using the Einstein Synchrony Convention (ESC).  While that convention is not objectively wrong, it is not the only convention.  For example, using the equally-legitimate Anisotropic Synchrony Convention (ASC), light takes no time at all to travel from the most distant galaxies to earth.  Under ASC, we are seeing galaxies as they are now.  But under ESC, we are seeing galaxies as they were long ago – when they emitted the light that is just now arriving at earth.

Secular Predictions

Since they are using ESC, secular astronomers believe that the very distant galaxies observed by the JWST will appear as they were billions of years ago when they were very young since the light we now see left those galaxies billions of years ago.  So, the most distant galaxies are also the youngest.  And since stars didn't form until around 300 million years after the big bang, there shouldn't be any galaxies beyond a certain distance.  300 million years after the big bang corresponds to a redshift of about 14 (using the standard cosmological parameters).

Therefore, according to the secular model, there really shouldn't be any galaxies beyond redshift 14, and relatively few at redshifts approaching that.  These early galaxies should be very low-mass since the stars gradually accumulate over time.  Secularists further expect that these first galaxies would have an irregular appearance as the stars collect, rather than the more mature and symmetric spiral and elliptical galaxies found nearby.

Furthermore, since the secular model insists that the first generation of stars are pop III (no elements heavier than lithium), it follows that these early galaxies should not contain heavy elements.  The JWST has an instrument (a spectroscope) that can determine the composition of galaxies by analyzing the light they emit.  So, it is possible to test this prediction.

Creationist Predictions

Biblical creationists reject the big bang and its billions-of-years timescale because such things are contrary to the recorded history of Genesis.  We hold that stars were made by God on the fourth day of the creation week, rather than self-assembling billions of years before earth.  Furthermore, we know that heavy elements existed before stars because the earth contains elements like oxygen (found in water molecules), and these existed on day 1 (Genesis 1:1-2) before the stars were created on day 4.  We do not believe the universe ever contained only hydrogen, helium, and lithium.  Although God could certainly have created stars with only these three elements, we have no particular reason to think that He did.  And so, we have no particular reason to expect that any pop III stars exist or have ever existed.

Since the stars were supernaturally created on day 4, and since galaxies are comprised of stars (and gas, dust, etc.), galaxies did not gradually self-assemble over billions of years.  We expect that they were created mature.  We therefore expect that even the most distant galaxies would be fully formed and substantially massive.  We expect lots of spiral and elliptical galaxies just as we observe in the near regions of the universe.

Although not all creationists agree with me, I am convinced that the Bible uses the ASC system in which we see the universe in real-time.  Therefore, in my view, we are not "looking back in time" as we peer into the distant universe, but are seeing it as it is now.  Consequently, I do not expect a lot of evidence for galaxy evolution.  I do not expect that the most distant galaxies are only partially formed, but rather I expect fully-designed galaxies including spirals and ellipticals.  And since I am convinced that galaxies were supernaturally created, I do not expect the deficit of galaxies at high redshift (that the secularists expect).

These are the predictions I published back in January before we had any data from the JWST.  You can read my original predictions here.  Namely: (1) I expected to find galaxies at higher redshifts than the secularists were expecting.  This would force secularists to conclude that galaxies formed earlier than their secular models had predicted.  (2) These galaxies would be fully-formed, not in the process of assembly.  (3) I expected evidence of some heavy elements in these galaxies, rather than pop III stars with no such elements.

Notice that these three predictions are essentially the opposite of what the secular astronomers were expecting to find.  They expected galaxies to taper off to zero by around redshift 14.  At lesser redshifts, they expected to see relatively few low-mass galaxies and in the process of formation rather than fully-formed spiral and elliptical galaxies.  And the secular model requires that the first stars would have no heavy elements.

The JWST Observations

The JWST deep field image is centered on a cluster of galaxies called SMACS 0723.  This cluster lies at a distance of about 4 billion light years, corresponding to redshift 0.39.  Cosmically speaking, that's relatively nearby. The reason the JWST team selected this target is because the gravity of all those galaxies in the cluster bends the light from far more distant galaxies.  This is called gravitational lensing.  Although lensing distorts the appearance of background galaxies and sometimes produces multiple images of the same galaxy, it also causes these galaxies to appear much brighter than they would otherwise.  So, if we want to see the most distant (and faintest) galaxies, using a galaxy cluster as a natural magnifying glass makes a lot of sense.  Amazingly, we can see thousands of galaxies in this image.  Some of these are from the foreground cluster, but many are much farther away.  Indeed, this deep field shows galaxies at unprecedented distances, far in excess of what most secular astronomers expected to find.

A number of articles and technical preprints have been published regarding these galaxies.  Caution is in order because many of the results reported below are based on preliminary estimates of distance with more detailed follow-up observations planned for the future. So, who made the better predictions?

(1) Galaxies at Extreme Distances

In January I predicted, based on biblical principles, that the JWST would detect "fully-formed (fully-designed) galaxies at unprecedented distances.  This will force secular astronomers to adjust their estimates of when the earliest galaxies formed, pushing them much closer to the supposed big bang.  We might see headlines like 'Webb discovers that galaxies formed much earlier than previously thought.'"  So, let's look at some of the published articles.  The references are available in the footnotes.

One article commented on an extremely high-redshift galaxy detected in the JWST deep field.  The author states, "If the finding is confirmed, it would be one of the earliest galaxies ever observed, and its presence would indicate that galaxies started forming much earlier than many astronomers previously thought" [underline added].  An article in Nature states, "Another preprint manuscript suggests that massive galaxies formed earlier in the Universe than previously known" [underline added].

Of course, it is always best to go to published peer-reviewed technical literature where the paper has been vetted by experts in the field.  But the peer-review process takes time, and therefore such results are not yet available for JWST data.  In the meantime, for the best preliminary results we look to the preprinted technical papers on arXiv.org.  This is where many physicists and astronomers publish data for the purpose of having it peer-reviewed by a wide community.  So, these papers are in the process of being peer-reviewed and the final paper may have some differences from these preprints.  What do these papers reveal about the JWST data?

One such paper states, "The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) has discovered a surprising abundance of bright galaxy candidates in the very early Universe (<500Myrs after the Big Bang), calling into question current galaxy formation models."  The researchers tentatively confirm a redshift of 12.1 from one of the JWST deep field galaxies.

Another research team reports the unexpected detection of two bright, high-redshift galaxies in JWST data.  They state, "This, in turn, suggests that future deep JWST observations may identify relatively bright galaxies to much earlier epochs than might have been anticipated" [underline added].  They confirm that such detections are inconsistent with the predictions of secular models, stating, "Theoretical and empirical models of early galaxy formation predicted that a 10-100× larger survey would have been required to find one such bright galaxy at z = 11 (e.g. Waters et al. 2016; Mutch et al. 2016)."  (A lowercase letter "z" is what astronomers use for redshift.)  In other words, the secular models predicted that galaxies at that distance (at a redshift of 11) would be so rare that it would require 10 to 100 times more JWST images to detect just one.

Another technical paper states, "Should followup spectroscopy validate this redshift, our Universe was already aglow with fairly massive galaxies less than 300 Myr after the Big Bang."  That is, of course, inconsistent with secular predictions.  These researchers analyzed a galaxy at redshift ~14.  They compared the JWST data with predictions from several (secular) theoretical models and found significant conflict.  Namely, "Almost all of these models predict an expected source density much less than one, making the observation of even a single object at this redshift and magnitude surprising and potentially hinting at significant differences between the physical assumptions in these models and the real early universe."  Indeed, the real universe is quite different from the big bang story.

Commenting on the large number of galaxies at extremely high redshift in the JWST data, Yan et al. state, "We have a total of 88 such candidates spreading over the two fields, some of which could be at redshifts as high as 20. Neither the high number of such objects found nor the high redshifts they reside at are expected from the previously favored predictions" [underline added].  Well, they were not expected from the secular predictions anyway.  Under the standard secular assumptions, a redshift of 20 works out to a time less than 180 million years after the big bang.  However, the secular model claimed that the first stars formed about 300 million years after the big bang (at a redshift of 14).  So, those distant JWST deep field galaxies just shouldn't be there.  It's almost as if they were just spoken into existence by God!

Another paper states, "Early observations with the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) indicate an overabundance of bright galaxies at redshifts z ≳ 10 relative to Hubble-calibrated model predictions."  Again, a lowercase letter "z" is what astronomers use for redshift.  So, these researchers honestly report galaxies at redshifts higher than 10 in far greater numbers than the secular model predicted.  This is a problem for the secular view because it should take significant time for stars to form, and thus the number of galaxies should taper off strongly with increasing redshift.  The paper states, "Theoretical models robustly predict a sharp decline in the abundance of such objects, simply because the halo mass function is evolving rapidly at these times. Indeed, Boylan-Kolchin (2022) and Lovell et al. (2022) point out that the most extreme detections (from Labbe et al. 2022) appear to have much larger stellar masses than allowed by the standard cosmological paradigm, even if they have perfectly efficient star formation!"

Another research team states, "Early results of JWST observations have delivered bright z ≳ 10 galaxy candidates in greater numbers than expected, enabling construction of the rest-frame UV luminosity functions (LFs)."  Yet another paper states, "As a result, we report the discovery of two galaxy candidates at z∼16, only 250 million years after the Big Bang."  That is 50 million years before the first stars formed according to the big bang model.  The authors emphasize this obvious discrepancy, stating, "Again, these two candidates do not align with theoretical models which predict a significantly lower density of such bright galaxies at 𝑧 > 10" [underline added].

So, regarding the detection of large numbers of galaxies at high redshifts, the creation predictions were correct, and the secular predictions were wrong.  Indeed, secularists are now claiming that galaxies formed much earlier than previously thought – the exact prediction I made back in January.

(2) Mass and Structure

But what about the mass and structures of these galaxies?  Are they all low-mass, clumpy, irregular galaxies just starting to form as the secularists predicted?  Or are they fully-formed (highly structured and massive) galaxies that I predicted back in January?

A recent Washington Post article states, "The first scientific results have emerged in recent weeks, and what the telescope has seen in deepest space is a little puzzling. Some of those distant galaxies are strikingly massive. A general assumption had been that early galaxies — which formed not long after the first stars ignited — would be relatively small and misshapen. Instead, some of them are big, bright and nicely structured."

In other words, the most distant galaxies are fully formed just as creationists expected to find.  They do not show any evidence of the gradual mass-accumulation and evolution that the secularists predicted. The article continues with a quote from astronomer Garth Illingworth who states, "The models just don't predict this." Regarding the large mass of these distant galaxies, Illingworth states, "How do you do this in the universe at such an early time? How do you form so many stars so quickly?"  Well, "you" don't.  And a "big bang" can't.  But God can and did.

Moreover, these galaxies are nicely structured with many (spiral) disk and elliptical shapes.  The article then quotes Dan Coe of the Space Telescope Science Institute saying, "We thought the early universe was this chaotic place where there's all these clumps of star formation, and things are all a-jumble."  But that isn't what Webb found.  Many of these most distant galaxies have disk structure, implying that they are spirals, just like the Milky Way.

An article from New Scientist is entitled, "JWST finds galaxies may adopt Milky Way-like shape faster than thought."  The article states, "Astronomers thought that galaxies in the early universe would mostly be shapeless blobs, but an analysis of data from the James Webb Space Telescope suggests around half are disc-shaped like the Milky Way."  Of course, the article fails to mention that it was only the secular astronomers who predicted shapeless blobs; creationists predicted fully-formed galaxies, such as spirals and ellipticals.

The article continues to correctly describe the secularists' dilemma.  "Astronomers analysing [sic] some of the first scientific data released by the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) have already seen something they weren't expecting. A deep view of the early universe appears to show a surprisingly high number of disc-shaped galaxies, rather than a large number of clumpy, irregular ones. This suggests that the disc structures in certain galaxies, including the Milky Way, may have formed more rapidly than current theories predict."  According to the Bible, God spoke the stars into existence on day 4.  So, they needed no time to form.

A recent article from Nature states, "Some early galaxies are surprisingly complex."  Again, secularists were expecting that the most distant galaxies would be small and not yet organized into disk-shaped spirals.  "But the Webb observations suggest there are up to ten times as many distant disk-shaped galaxies as previously thought."  The article quotes astronomer Allison Kirkpatrick saying, "With the resolution of James Webb, we are able to see that galaxies have disks way earlier than we thought they did."  The article continues, "That's a problem, she says, because it contradicts earlier theories of galaxy evolution."  "Another preprint manuscript suggests that massive galaxies formed earlier in the Universe than previously known."  Another article states, "One of the young galaxies even shows evidence of a disklike structure."
 
The technical preprint papers also confirm massive, fully-formed galaxies at distances much greater than the secular predictions claimed.  One such paper is entitled, "A very early onset of massive galaxy formation."  That pretty much says it all.  The paper states, "The stellar mass density in massive galaxies is much higher than anticipated from previous studies based on rest-frame UV-selected samples: a factor of 10-30 at z∼8 and more than three orders of magnitude at z∼10."  Three orders of magnitude means that these galaxies are more than a thousand times more massive than the secular predictions.

Another paper states, "Early data from JWST have revealed a bevy of high-redshift galaxy candidates with unexpectedly high stellar masses."  The author elaborates, "If these massive galaxies are spectroscopically confirmed and/or if other galaxies with similar properties at 𝑧 ≳ 10 are found, they will present a serious challenge for ΛCDM structure formation with parameters given by Planck Collaboration et al. (2020) because they signify the existence of a significantly larger reservoir of collapsed baryons than is possible in ΛCDM."  In other words, if these JWST galaxies really are at the distances they seem to be, then the big bang is in real trouble because it cannot account for this.  (ΛCDM is the term for the standard big bang model with the standard parameters).

Another technical paper also reports the inconsistency ("tension") of the mass of these galaxies compared to the predictions of the standard (big bang) model.  The authors state, "Either these galaxies are in tension with ΛCDM or there are unaccounted for uncertainties in their stellar mass or redshift estimates."

The JWST data refutes the secular notion that the most distant (earliest in secular thinking) galaxies would be largely irregular, not having had sufficient time to collapse into disks.  Indeed, spiral and elliptical galaxies are common at high redshifts.  And the technical preprints show this.  "We discover the surprising result that at z >1.5 disk galaxies dominate the overall fraction of morphologies, with a factor of ∼10 relative higher number of disk galaxies than seen by the Hubble Space Telescope at these redshifts.",  Note that only secularists find this "surprising."  We predicted mature galaxies at extreme distances (although we did not predict any specific ratio of disks to ellipticals to irregulars.)

The paper continues, "We demonstrate that these early galaxies have a more normal morphology than expected, with classifications showing that disk galaxies are much more common than previous observations suggested (e.g., Conselice et al. 2005; Margalef-Bentabol et al. 2022)....  We in fact find that at the highest redshifts probed by HST there are in fact up to 10 times more disk galaxies than we had thought, based on the JWST visual morphologies."

This is again contrary to the secular models.  The authors state, "This would challenge our ideas about mergers being a very common process, and it might be the case that mergers are only a dominant process for forming the stellar masses of certain types of galaxies, namely spheroids, which have a relatively constant merger fraction at z > 2.5 at around 10%" [underline added].

So, regarding the kinds of galaxies that have been detected at extreme redshift, the creation predictions were correct.  Fully-formed galaxies exist at extreme distances: most of which are disk-shaped, implying spiral galaxies much like those found in the local universe.  The secular predictions of extremely low-mass, not-yet-structured galaxies were simply wrong.

(3) Heavy Elements or Pop III?

Finally, biblical creationists recognize that at least some heavy elements existed before the stars were created.  Astronomers refer to elements heavier than helium as "metals."  The quantity of heavy elements in a galaxy is called its metallicity.  Thus, I proposed back in January that the most distant galaxies would have detectable levels of heavy elements such as oxygen – that such galaxies might have low, but non-zero metallicity.  Conversely, big bang supporters believe that the first stars were population III stars consisting only of hydrogen, helium, and lithium – and no heavy elements whatsoever.  Thus, the most distant galaxies should have only those elements.  What did the JWST find?

A research team led by physicist Jonathan Trump analyzed the spectra of certain high-redshift galaxies in the JWST data.  Trump states, "The Universe starts out with only hydrogen and helium and every other element on the periodic table is slowly produced by nuclear fusion in stars and distributed by supernovae over the 13.7 billion years from the Big Bang to the current time. Our new paper finds that infant galaxies are surprisingly enriched by oxygen and other non-primordial elements, suggesting highly efficient stellar fusion and explosions in the early Universe" [underline added].

An article from Nature reports, "One analysis of the first deep-field image examined the light emitted by galaxies at a redshift of 5 or greater. (Spectral lines that appear at various wavelengths of light correlate with the chemical elements composing the galaxies.) It found a surprising richness of elements such as oxygen" [underline added].  The article continues, "Astronomers had thought that the process of chemical enrichment — in which stars fuse hydrogen and helium to form heavier elements — took a while, but the finding that it is under way in early galaxies 'will make us rethink the speed at which star formation occurs', [astronomer Allison] Kirkpatrick says."

An article in Quanta Magazine reports on the search for population III stars using the JWST.  "Now scientists are hoping the telescope will find an absence of heavy elements in even earlier galaxies — evidence that these galaxies contain only Population III stars, the hypothesized first stars in the universe, thought to have been monstrously huge and made entirely from hydrogen and helium....  The telescope took a closer look at one distant galaxy in the image, a smudge of light that dates to 700 million years after the Big Bang. With its spectrograph, JWST detected heavy elements, particularly oxygen, in the galaxy" [underline added].

In the secular view, galaxies increase in heavy elements over time.  So, there should be a straightforward increase in heavy elements from higher redshift (z) galaxies to lower redshift galaxies.  Yet, several researchers found that this is not the case.  "The [redshift] z > 5 metallicities are broadly consistent with z ∼ 2 galaxies of similar stellar mass, although our interpretation is limited by highly uncertain stellar masses and upper limits in metallicity."

Many high-redshift galaxies showed a similar range of metallicities to nearby galaxies (called "Green Peas"), in contradiction to the secular predictions.  "The JWST data show striking further similarities between these high redshift galaxies and nearby Green Peas. The z∼8 galaxies span the metallicity range covered by Green Peas."  Many technical preprints have also confirmed the detection of heavy elements like oxygen in the most distant galaxies that have been spectroscopically analyzed.
 
So, the secular predictions regarding the steady decrease in metals with increasing redshift with the earliest stars being pop III were simply wrong.  The observations match the creationist prediction of heavy elements in high-redshift galaxies.  I have also made predictions that the JWST will detect exoplanets with orbital or chemical properties that are inconsistent with the secular model, but consistent with God's creativity.  These would include planets that orbit their star at high inclination or in the opposite direction of the star's rotation, or with strong magnetic fields, and so on.  Currently, the James Web Space Telescope has observed only two exoplanets.  So this prediction may take several years before it is either confirmed or refuted.

Conclusions

It is always exciting to see creation predictions confirmed, and secular predictions refuted by data.  The ability to make correct, specific predictions is a key characteristic of a good scientific model.  So perhaps the current creationist understanding of cosmology is on the right track.  We have a tremendous advantage because we build our models on the infallible Word of God.  This doesn't ensure that the details of our models are always correct since such details go beyond the text of Scripture and in many cases are educated guesses.  But it does allow us to eliminate many false leads – those that are contrary to Genesis.

I would like to make an additional prediction – not about the astronomy, but about the secularists' reaction to all these exciting new discoveries.  The Bible not only gives accurate information about the universe, it also gives accurate information about people.  Apart from the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, the Bible says that people love darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil (John 3:19-20).  The Bible teaches that all people know God, and that they are hardwired to recognize creation as His handiwork (Romans 1:19-20).  Yet they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18).  People would rather believe a lie than accept the truth about creation.

Therefore, I predict that the secular community (as a whole) will not be moved by these amazing results from the James Webb Space Telescope.  Despite all evidence to the contrary, they will continue to believe in a big bang, and that stars and galaxies spontaneously formed over millions of years.  They will simply push these stories to a much earlier time, so that they are beyond verification (or falsification) by our current technological limits.  They will not give up the big bang or evolution – no matter what evidence is found.  This confirms that the big bang is not really science at all, but a philosophical precommitment in light of which secularists interpret all data.

And yet, the Lord can give a person a new heart that loves Him and the truth of His Word.  Perhaps the Lord will use some of these exciting new discoveries as part of the means by which He illuminates the mind of unbelievers as His Spirit regenerates their heart unto salvation.  In any case, we pray these new results are encouraging to believers.  We extend our thanks and a hearty congratulations to those at NASA, ESA, and CSA who made the James Webb Space Telescope possible.  We look forward to what the JWST will reveal in the future, including many wonderful new images and data that will continue to confirm biblical creation and glorify God.

[Rella]

A wonderful brother sent this and it is short and completely reasonable.

I wanted to share.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity-7282041953171480577-3JpY?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADdUzDcByCxZ9dhxoBKGRKCmJmSShbd8Vt0

[Amo]

A wonderful brother sent this and it is short and completely reasonable.

I wanted to share.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity-7282041953171480577-3JpY?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADdUzDcByCxZ9dhxoBKGRKCmJmSShbd8Vt0

Looks like you have to sign in to see the contents.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3qdTHa9TNE

The relevance of what Dinosaurs ate or not, and or what ate them. Not surprisingly, evolutionists have had to move their suggested dates for the existence of certain plants further and further back in time because of new evidence. Regarding what Dinosaurs ate, which was mainly vegetation, including grasses.

This is an extremely prevalent adjustment evolutionists must make over, and over, and over again. As demonstrated in article after article I have presented on these boards over the years. We do observe that evolutionists are continuously having to move the dates of existence and or complexity further and further back in time. This in order to account for the continuous new evidences which force them to make these adjustments.

Many of us Creationists in particular then, do rightly claim that such observable, continuous, and repetitive  adjustments have formed a pattern which is highly suggestive of complexity from the beginning. Which is of course more suggestive of creation and or intelligent design, than deep time slow evolutionary processes. Especially since this pattern is repeated across many different evolutionary based scientific disciplines or fields of study. At a certain point, a non stop repetitive need to move the development of complexity further and further back in time, suggests complexity from the beginning, and or serious time related issues of incorrect theoretical projections.     

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cT7Z0D7_h4

Darwin's Biggest Problem | Long Story Short: Evolution

[Rella]

Looks like you have to sign in to see the contents.

@Amo Ill check later if that is so...  It is on Linkedin.com..

I did not log on to see it but do have an account ?

It starts out

"Scientific Evidence for God's Existence.

Its brief, and quote some scientists.

Sorry if you miss it cause it is one of the better ones....

Ties God into science and the beginning

[Amo]

@Amo Ill check later if that is so...  It is on Linkedin.com..

I did not log on to see it but do have an account ?

It starts out

"Scientific Evidence for God's Existence.

Its brief, and quote some scientists.

Sorry if you miss it cause it is one of the better ones....

Ties God into science and the beginning

Yea, the link just takes me somewhere to sign in.

[Rella]

Yea, the link just takes me somewhere to sign in.

Yep, and I could find no other way.

Sorry.

[Amo]

Yep, and I could find no other way.

Sorry.

No apology needed.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM04EqBEV7I

Spirituality & Science - Creation, DNA, Evolution, & What the Hubble Reveals About God.

[Alan]

Yeah! Alan, and his posts on these internet boards is it! Come on people. Get with it, and acknowledge the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, of the word of Alan. Amen.

Difference between us is that I refer to well established and documented scientific facts, you OTOH attempt to recreate scientific discoveries and observations with fake science. 

[Alan]

But when scientists change based on new evidence, it is only a current theory... not proof.

Why doesnt someone explain if the earth is 13+ billion years old, and the oldest recorded fossil is  (from AI) The oldest fossils are believed to be around 3.5 billion years old, with some evidence suggesting life may have emerged as early as 4.1 billion years ago. The earliest direct evidence of life comes from stromatolite fossils found in Australia.

You have a gap of around 10 billion years of no life whatso ever?

The universe is continuously expanding, and new galaxies are still being birthed, while other galaxies collide and birth new galaxies from the merger, much like Andromeda and our own Milky Way galaxies will eventually collide. 

Did it ever occur to you that the Earth came into being billions of years after the beginning of the universe? 

[Rella]

The universe is continuously expanding, and new galaxies are still being birthed, while other galaxies collide and birth new galaxies from the merger, much like Andromeda and our own Milky Way galaxies will eventually collide.

Did it ever occur to you that the Earth came into being billions of years after the beginning of the universe?

Surprise @Alan .....Yes.

I have often thought that the earth could well be younger then the rest. Inclusive of our immediate solar system.

And if it is not a great deal younger then the rest I say that God
cultivated it for a specific purpose.

What does not make any sense at all it the way Genesis 1 was written, when Genesis two seems to have a better grasp on things.

It is almost as if the man and woman God made in their image from Genesis 1 and told to go multiply and tend the earth yada yada could well have been much older then the man God formed from the ground, and the woman He took from that man.. and put them in the graden  that God  had made for the man.

It makes much more sense if one considers that Genesis 2 :4

KJV These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Lamsa Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the heavens and the earth.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
These are the generations of Heaven and of Earth when they were created, in the day that LORD JEHOVAH God made the Heavens and Earth,
OT Translations
JPS Tanakh 1917
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

which use generations .

Unfortunately the Dead Sea Scrolls I could find do not have Gen 2, vs 4... but they do call in Gen 1 ,  Day 1... but then subsequent days
a second day, a fourth day... etc, Which to me says that those were not back to back necessarily allowing for time between....

I digress.

We only know that Adam and Eve came about a little more then 6,000
years ago. I believe for a specific reason.

The rest can be older. I wont fight that.

It is just a 10 billion gap from start ot fossil to me is a stretch.

If they just would say 13 plus billion and then life as we know it started I would be happy.

[Alan]

The rest can be older. I wont fight that.

It is just a 10 billion gap from start ot fossil to me is a stretch.

If they just would say 13 plus billion and then life as we know it started I would be happy.

Just consider that time is outside the realm of the physical universe, which coincidentally aligns with God.