Creation scientists

[DaveW]

I suppose we've all got gorges and canyons of some shape or flavor.

This one is only 12,500 years old.

Gorgeous gorges.

[Rella]

Gorgeous gorges.

Absolutely gorgeous water.

The one in PA is called the "little Grand Canyon" and is a specific destination for travelers, campers and hikers...
And while not as grand as the AZ one..... it is only 47 miles, and 1000 ft deep .... it breaks up the boredom of so many trees.

[Rella]

Snicker, snicker  --  giggle, giggle.

You know... sometimes I would love to 

[4WD]

You know... sometimes I would love to 

You and probably many others.   

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

The one in PA is called the "little Grand Canyon" and is a specific destination for travelers, campers and hikers...

That's not a canyon...

THIS is a canyon...



Oak Creek Canyon, also in Arizona  :p

[Texas Conservative]

Canyons in PA are like the lakes in Oklahoma.   

[Rella]

Canyons in PA are like the lakes in Oklahoma.   

IOW... Refined

[Alan]

Canyons in PA are like the lakes in Oklahoma.   

And snow storms in Texas 

[Rella]

And snow storms in Texas 

Texas had a worse winter then we did last winter

[Alan]

Texas had a worse winter then we did last winter

It was cold.

[Amo]

https://www.starmythworld.com/mathisencorollary/2013/08/catastrophic-formation-of-grand-canyon.html

Quoted article below from link above.

Catastrophic formation of the Grand Canyon: still more evidence, this time from the Mojave Desert

If Dr. Walt Brown's hydroplate theory is correct, and the Grand Canyon is a result of the rapid release of millions of tons of water that had been trapped in two massive inland seas (Grand Lake and Hopi Lake, shown in the image on this page of the online version of his book), then the release of so much water should have left evidence all the way along its path to the ocean.  The evidence of such an event would look very different than the evidence that we would find if the Grand Canyon was carved slowly over tens of millions of years by the action of the Colorado River (the conventional explanation). 

The previous discussion presented just that kind of evidence, in the form of six thousand cubic miles of sediments along the northern basin of the Gulf of California.  However, diving down to the floor of the Gulf of California is not an easy undertaking.  Fortunately, we should expect to find plenty more evidence in between the Grand Canyon and the Gulf of California which could provide clues as to the mechanism behind the Canyon's formation -- evidence that would look very different depending on whether its formation was caused by massive amounts of water moving at very high velocity after huge lakes breached, or whether its formation was instead caused by a relatively small river moving at normal speeds over millions of years.

The image above, from Google Maps, shows the distinctive terrain between the two features (Grand Canyon and Gulf of California), a desert region resembling a vast flood plain, marked by ridge line features that resemble lines of dirt left over by a drainage event.  This area is part of the larger "Great Basin" region, and contains the Mojave Desert.  If you can imagine lining the bottom of a bathtub with dirt, then filling it up with water, and then blowing a hole in the side of the bathtub with a large firecracker (like an M-80) [don't try this at home -- this is only a thought experiment], you might be left with a similar pattern of dirt "eddies" along the floor of the bathroom after all the water flowed out of the tub and out of the bathroom (assuming the water had someplace lower to run towards).

If you explore the terrain shown above in person (and I have spent quite a bit of time crawling around in the regions shown in the map) you will find that it is full of very interesting terrain, and that most of the ridge line features that rise up out of the desert are full of a mix of rocks and boulders of all sizes and shapes.  Some of these have been rounded into spheroid shapes by some process.  According to Dr. Brown's interpretation of this evidence, these provide further support for the hypothesis that the Grand Canyon was the product of massive volumes of high-velocity water, which removed thousands of cubic miles of sediments and flowed towards the Gulf of California like a massive tsunami. 

In figure 136, which is found on this page of Dr. Brown's chapter on the Grand Canyon (under paragraph 13, "Missing Dirt"), he presents a photograph of two such spheroid boulders, located south of Bullhead City, Arizona about a mile east of the Colorado River and a hundred feet in elevation above that river (see image below).  The approximate location of this photograph is marked in the map above with a red arrow. 

What could have rounded these boulders into their smooth shapes?  One possibility is the action of high-velocity water, moving them along the bottom for miles at a rapid pace, and depositing them far from the present river and at an elevation high above it.

These boulders shown in Dr. Brown's book (the same image can be seen in the hardcopy version of his book, on page 205 of the 8th edition) are by no means anomalous to the region.  Other similarly rounded boulders can be seen in the Coachella Valley, far to the west and south of the red arrow in the image above, but still in the area that would have been flooded by the rapidly-moving water from the breaching of Grand and Hopi Lakes, if the hydroplate theory is correct.  See for example the photograph at the top of this page (linked) showing very spheroid boulders, some piled on top of one another with large gaps in between them.

There are a few possibilities for explaining the boulders in that image, which are located in Joshua Tree National Park at the approximate location of the marker (the red marker, with the letter "A" on it) in the image below:

That location can be found on the map at the top of this post as well -- it is just north of the Salton Sea and Interstate 10 (you can find the Salton Sea on the map at the top of this post -- it is about center from the left and right sides of the image, but closer to the lower edge of the image).

Those boulders could have been carved into spheroid shapes by the wind, although this explanation seems somewhat unlikely (especially as they are piled on top of one another -- the wind would not be expected to deposit large boulders on top of one another in that manner).  They could have been ejected from an ancient volcano in this spheroid shape and left in a pile as shown in the photograph (while this possibility does not seem to be the correct one, especially given the composition of the rocks themselves, it is a possible explanation).  Or, they could have been eroded into a spheroid shape by rolling for miles at the bottom of a huge flow of water, and left in the location we find them today by that water as it coursed down through the maze of mountainous terrain features towards the Gulf of California.

In his discussion of the evidence (again from paragraph 13 on this page of his online book), Dr. Brown writes:

"At least 2,000 cubic miles of Mesozoic sediments were stripped off the layers surrounding and above what is now the Grand Canyon. Only then could the 800 cubic miles of sediments be removed from inside the Grand Canyon. All that dirt was spread downstream from the Grand Canyon, primarily into the northernmost 220 miles of the Gulf of California.

Relatively few sediments were deposited along the Colorado River as it flows south toward the Gulf of California. Rounded boulders mixed with sand and clay are often seen where today's side streams have cut channels 100–200 feet deep. Those rounded boulders show that they were tumbled and transported by high-velocity water. Unsorted mixtures of sand, clay, and boulders show that the turbulent, muddy water suddenly slowed, depositing the unsorted mixture." [See Figures 136 and 137.]

Clearly, if the Canyon were carved by the normal action of the Colorado River over millions of years, we would have to find another explanation for the location and condition of these boulders.  It would be difficult (if not impossible) to explain this evidence by saying that the river has been flowing at a fairly uniform rate and volume for millions of years.

If you read further in paragraph 13 on the web page cited above from Dr. Brown's book, you will find a reference to a recent (2011) study of the very area under discussion, which looked at the geology of the area shown in the map above and said that although the sediments in the area in question have been widely studied for over a hundred fifty years, "their origin remains unresolved and their stratigraphic context has been confused" (Stratigraphy and Depositional Environments of the Upper Pleistocene Chemehuevi Formation along the Lower Colorado River, Malmon, Howard, House, Lundstrom, Pearthree, Sarna-Wojcicki, Wan and Wahl, 2012 -- link to full report).

They offer a new theory for the origin of the sediments in the vast flood plain between the Grand Canyon and the Gulf of California, namely "a single major episode of fluvial aggradation, during which the Colorado River filled its valley with a great volume of dominantly sand-sized sediment."

While it is nice to see conventional geologists arguing for an extraordinary event to explain evidence that clearly calls for such an explanation (and note that their study was published long after Dr. Brown wrote the discussion quoted above, which can be found in his 2008 hard-copy 8th edition, minus the reference to the 2011 study), their explanation still fails to explain the rounded boulders shown in the two locations discussed above.  A flooding river might move large rocks, but it would not be expected to have the velocity to roll them along for miles at high speeds and round them into spheroids, nor would it be able to pile them up in the jumble shown in the Joshua Tree image.

In short, the evidence on the ground in between the Grand Canyon and the Gulf of California appears to support the hydroplate theory, and to refute the conventional explanations.  And that is in addition to the tons of sediments at the bottom of the Gulf of California (which suggest a rapid high-volume dumping, because if those sediments were deposited by a river over millions of years, it would have been expected to build up a large river delta, which is not present at the north end of the Gulf, as discussed in the previous post and in Dr. Brown's books).

All of this evidence can be added to the massive amounts of evidence in the vicinity of the Grand Canyon itself, which suggests that this incredible terrain feature is the product of a catastrophic event involving huge volumes of high-velocity water, and not the action of a normal river moving with normal volumes and normal velocities over the course of millions of years.  And yet teachers in school responsible for the education of children from the youngest grades through graduate school, as well as all the guides at the Grand Canyon itself, continue to insist on presenting the conventional theory as if it were settled fact, and as if anyone suggesting an alternative explanation is way out of bounds.

[4WD]

As always there is the discussion of "high velocity" water.  If the entire earth were covered in water, where was this "high velocity" water going?

[Amo]

https://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/news-events/how-catastrophic-floods-may-have-carved-greenland's-'grand-canyon'

Quoted article below from link above.

How Catastrophic Floods May Have Carved Greenland's 'Grand Canyon'

For years, geologists have debated how and when a network of canyons under the Greenland ice sheet formed, especially one that is so deep and long it's been called Greenland's Grand Canyon. Its shape suggests it was carved by running water followed by glaciation, but until now, the genesis of this canyon, and similar features in northern Greenland, have remained unknown.

In a new study in the journal Geology, scientists at the University of Massachusetts Amherst and the University of Copenhagen have proposed a new mechanism for how the mega-canyon formed: from a series of catastrophic outburst floods that suddenly and repeatedly drained lakes of melting ice-sheet water over time. Based on ice-sheet model simulations of the early ice sheet's history, they show that climate and bedrock topography have exerted strong controls on the ice sheet since its beginning.

First author Benjamin Keisling, now a postdoctoral fellow at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, did the work as a graduate student with senior author and advisor Rob DeConto at UMass.

Keisling says that before now, repeated outburst floods appeared to be the mechanism by which the Columbia River and other North America canyon networks formed. But they had not been considered as having played a role in forming the tortured landscape under the Greenland ice sheet.

"If the floods we propose occurred, they could have influenced ocean circulation, causing abrupt climate changes with regional and perhaps global significance," said Keisling. "The mega-canyon beneath northern Greenland also influences how ice and water flow in the subglacial environment today, which affects present-day ice-sheet stability."

Keisling says that in most Greenland studies, researchers use the modern ice sheet as a starting point for understanding how it has changed over time. But Keisling and his co-authors took a different approach, investigating what Greenland looked like before widespread glaciation. "We wanted to better understand the dynamics of "glacial inception – how, where and why the ice sheet first grew on an ice-free island," he said.

The team also wanted to gain a better understanding of how the ice sheet grew back after melting. "We know from prior work this has happened multiple times in the past and could again in the future, given enough global warming," said Keisling.

They used coupled ice-sheet and climate models to simulate the ice sheet's evolution over many glacial-interglacial cycles in the last few million years. They found that following long periods with stable temperatures, an exceptionally warm period could cause the ice sheet to rapidly retreat. This led to large, ice-dammed lakes forming in areas where the bedrock was still depressed from the old ice sheet's weight.

Their simulations show the ice dams eventually giving way as large outburst floods. "Over time," said Keisling, "it appears that the filling and draining of these lakes as the ice repeatedly retreated and advanced carved Greenland's mega-canyons." Similar floods have been documented at the edge of other retreating ice sheets, he said.

Comparing Greenland with modern outburst floods, the researchers estimate that as many as hundreds of floods carved its giant canyon. Results suggest testable hypotheses for future research that could settle the long-standing debate about whether the ice sheet's stability has changed over time, they say.

"Knowing the history of Greenland's bedrock provides context for understanding the ice sheet's long-term behavior," Keisling said. "This helps paint a picture of what happened during past warm periods when the melting ice sheet caused global sea levels to rise, a phenomenon we are also seeing today."

The work was supported by NASA, the U.S. National Science Foundation, a GROW Fellowship, and the Danish National Research Foundation.

Same old same old, more and more evidence and acknowledgment of catastrophic canyon formation by mega floods, while avoiding the obvious pointed out in holy scripture. Deep timers clinging to their faith in human observation and conclusion, above divinely inspired testimony from Him who has cerated, sustained, effected, destroyed, recovered, and witnessed all. So be it.

[Amo]

As always there is the discussion of "high velocity" water.  If the entire earth were covered in water, where was this "high velocity" water going?

It seems your boasted powers of observation and conclusion concerning deep time evolution, take a radical dive when addressing theories you choose not to agree with. A global flood including all the fountains of the great deep breaking open, is highly suggestive of a lot more going on than a bunch of rain water accumulating. The surface of the entire planet was being transformed, with immense and intense rapid geological transformation taking place, water flows were no doubt being moved rapidly according to the same. Not to mention the global volcanic activity which no doubt resulted from the same, among other things.

[Amo]

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2016JE005061

Quoted conclusion below is from article at above link. The article is rather lengthy but interesting, so I just supplied the conclusion with the link for those interested enough.

Canyon formation constraints on the discharge of catastrophic outburst floods of Earth and Mars

7 Conclusion
Some canyons carved in fractured basaltic flows on Earth and Mars likely formed through waterfall retreat. Because of the crystalline and fractured nature of basaltic bedrock, toppling of rock columns under the action of water flow at the canyon head is a good candidate mechanism for waterfall retreat. We developed a new theory for canyon dynamics that takes into account the distribution of bed shear stresses imparted by flood water along the rim of amphitheater-headed canyons. We propose that canyons with a spatially uniform width must evolve such that flow focusing allows for erosion of the canyon head but not along the canyon sidewalls. Because flow focusing is, in general, limited, our model implies that canyons form under conditions very close to the threshold for erosion. Thus, all else being equal, larger floods should produce wider canyons. We applied this new paleohydraulic method to 14 terrestrial (Malad Gorge, Woody's Cove, Box Canyon, Blind Canyon, Blue Lakes canyons in Idaho, Dry Falls, Pothole Coulee, Frenchman Coulee in Washington, and the Ásbyrgi canyon in Iceland) and nine Martian (Echus Chasma and Ares Vallis) canyons and found a relationship between the formative discharge of floods and the headwall width of the canyons they carved, consistent with our hypothesis. We showed that the predicted discharges of those floods were in cases more than 2 orders of magnitude lower than previous estimates assuming brimful conditions. Under the assumption that canyon erosion was transport-limited, we showed that canyon formation typically lasted from less than a day to a few months, although these times may have been proportioned into shorter discrete flood events. We derived formative Shields stresses for sediment transport within the canyon heads and found that they were within 1.4 to 2.1 times the critical value for incipient motion of the observed block sizes, which likely arises from the relatively narrow range in rim shear stresses that allow for a stable-width canyon, and the similarity between toppling and initial motion thresholds. Consequently, this range in Shields stresses may constitute a convenient closure to place bounds on flood discharge and duration in toppling terrain. Finally, we predicted that despite their lowered discharges, the considered floods involved similar volumes of water compared with their corresponding brimful estimates. In particular, estimated water volumes suggest that the floods required to carve the observed canyons were large enough to have significantly perturbed the subsurface and surface hydrology of Mars at a global scale.

With a growing consensus concerning rapid formation of canyons by floods, another aspect of deep timers theorizing is   heading toward an explanation more in line with scripture than the older theories which drifted far away from the same. As usual, new mounting evidence points out that deep time is no longer necessary to the development of what we see in the world around us.

[4WD]

It seems your boasted powers of observation and conclusion concerning deep time evolution, take a radical dive when addressing theories you choose not to agree with. A global flood including all the fountains of the great deep breaking open, is highly suggestive of a lot more going on than a bunch of rain water accumulating. The surface of the entire planet was being transformed, with immense and intense rapid geological transformation taking place, water flows were no doubt being moved rapidly according to the same. Not to mention the global volcanic activity which no doubt resulted from the same, among other things.

You didn't answer the question.  Where was all that water going?  The YEC conclusion always seems to be the canyon formed not when the flood was appearing, i.e., in the forty days and forty nights, but in the receding.  But either way, the YEC answer doesn't make any sense.  just about eighty or ninety miles south of the entrance to the Grand Canyon is a the edge of the Colorado Plateau, which in Arizona is called the Mogollon Rim. It  is a topographical and geological feature cutting across the northern half of the U.S. state of Arizona. It extends approximately 200 miles (320 km), starting in northern Yavapai County and running eastward, ending near the border with New Mexico. It forms the southern edge of the Colorado Plateau in Arizona.

The obvious course of any water running off of the Colorado Plateau would first of all cascade off of the Mogollon Rim and be gone rather that down the path that the YECers claim is the path of the water carving the Canyon.  But of course there is no such evidence of any such cascading off of the Rim.

[4WD]

With a growing consensus concerning rapid formation of canyons by floods

Consensus by whom?  A dozen or so, at most, geologists(?) who have let their misinterpretation of Genesis 1 drive their scientific thinking?  That against literally hundreds of geologists who reject such nonsense.

But all of that is really moot since nothing about a flood, global or otherwise, can explain the nearly 40 distinction layers over a mile deep in total, some of which being, without question, desert driven layers intermingled among shallow seas driven layers.  And, by the way, there is a whole system of mountain peaks, the San Francisco Peaks, sitting on top of those layers.

Your information is GARBAGE, Amo.

[Amo]

Consensus by whom?  A dozen or so, at most, geologists(?) who have let their misinterpretation of Genesis 1 drive their scientific thinking?  That against literally hundreds of geologists who reject such nonsense.

But all of that is really moot since nothing about a flood, global or otherwise, can explain the nearly 40 distinction layers over a mile deep in total, some of which being, without question, desert driven layers intermingled among shallow seas driven layers.  And, by the way, there is a whole system of mountain peaks, the San Francisco Peaks, sitting on top of those layers.

Your information is GARBAGE, Amo.

You just called the following scriptures and words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ GARBAGE. Creation scientists information is based upon the following truths of holy scripture.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. 15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. 17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. 21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. 22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. 4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. 5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him. 6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. 7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, 9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. 13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in. 17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

You deny all of the above scriptural testimony above as GARBAGE, in your constant argument against all evidence supporting the same. You will stand before God, to give an account of your constant testimony against the words of His chosen prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ Himself. So be it.

[Amo]

You didn't answer the question.  Where was all that water going?  The YEC conclusion always seems to be the canyon formed not when the flood was appearing, i.e., in the forty days and forty nights, but in the receding.  But either way, the YEC answer doesn't make any sense.  just about eighty or ninety miles south of the entrance to the Grand Canyon is a the edge of the Colorado Plateau, which in Arizona is called the Mogollon Rim. It  is a topographical and geological feature cutting across the northern half of the U.S. state of Arizona. It extends approximately 200 miles (320 km), starting in northern Yavapai County and running eastward, ending near the border with New Mexico. It forms the southern edge of the Colorado Plateau in Arizona.

The obvious course of any water running off of the Colorado Plateau would first of all cascade off of the Mogollon Rim and be gone rather that down the path that the YECers claim is the path of the water carving the Canyon.  But of course there is no such evidence of any such cascading off of the Rim.

I did answer your question, you just didn't like the answer, or missed it I presume. It was no doubt going every which way at times during the massive global geological alterations that took place at the flood which God brought upon the world, and during later catastrophes directly related to the same. Of course neither I, nor yourself, nor anyone else knows exactly how any of it played out. We can only observe the evidence before us unto conclusions either in agreement with the testimony of God's word, or one's decidedly against said testimony. The latter being your most often preferred choice apparently. You have chosen deep time slow processes over and above the catastrophic events described in scripture as the cause of what we see geologically around us today, and deep time evolutionary processes over and above the special creation described in scripture as well. This is the faith you have chosen, not factual science compared to which other views are GARBAGE. So be it.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3Vl170kCyA

Another good Grand Canyon video.

[4WD]

It was no doubt going every which way at times during the massive global geological alterations that took place at the flood which God brought upon the world, and during later catastrophes directly related to the same.

Of course, those massive global geological alterations that took place at the flood that are described in Zerikekiah 5:1-8:31.  I had forgotten all about that.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9j0BO-qijk

Good video about animal adaption and change.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fclA1hETGC0

I found the above video on evolution, on this science channel, to be one of the most informative videos I've ever seen regarding the topic. I'm sure you will find it very informative as well.

[Rella]

Of course, those massive global geological alterations that took place at the flood that are described in Zerikekiah 5:1-8:31.  I had forgotten all about that.

Zerikekiah 5:1-8:31.  Where???

[DaveW]

Zerikekiah 5:1-8:31.  Where???

Zerikekiah.  It comes right after 2nd Condominiums. It is quoted in the book of Collusions.

[Amo]

Of course, those massive global geological alterations that took place at the flood that are described in Zerikekiah 5:1-8:31.  I had forgotten all about that.

There is no need to make up bible books and or verses to understand the complete destruction of the original world God created. Existing scripture, along with scientific observation of what is, in relation to more scientific observation concerning the destructive force of large amounts of water on the move, easily explains much of what we see today. You simply choose another faith, which contradicts the same.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD....................

It is not hard to imagine or extrapolate if you will, the magnitude of an event that would destroy all men, beasts, creeping things, and birds on the earth. You simply choose not to believe the above testimony because such would contradict the other faith you have chosen above the testimony of scripture in regards to the creation and flood.

You have no problem imagining or extrapolating details concerning deep time evolutionary scenarios and geographical change because these are faiths you have chosen in contradiction to scriptural testimony. Simple to complex evolution through mutations over deep time unto what we see today, no problem. Creation in six days as scripture depicts, problem. Deep time formation of existing geography through long slow process, no problem. Rapid formation of existing geography  due to the impact of the global flood described in scripture, problem. These are your choices according to more faith in fallen humanities theories, than the testimony of scripture.

Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth...............

Again, you refuse the above testimony in favor of some type of limited destruction which the scriptures never indicate, because of your faith in other supposed authorities. The scriptures says all flesh will be destroyed, along with this earth. You deny this, and the abundant evidence that this is exactly what has happened to this world in the past, as scripture has depicted it.

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die...........

More of the same which you deny in favor of another faith. All flesh wherein is the breath of life, and everything on the earth will die. They will die by way of flood. The evidence of which, is all over the earth for all of scriptural faith to see. Countless creatures buried in mud, sand, permafrost, snow, or ice, and preserved to different degrees the world over. Evidence of severe global flooding, water damage, cavitation, plucking and toppling, and what have you the world over. You simply deny that these evidences support biblical testimony, because your faith lies elsewhere. 

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth................

And again, scripture quantifies, every living substance destroyed from the face of the earth. Again, you cannot believe this while holding onto your other chosen faith. Even though the evidence of such a catastrophe is everywhere. You must deny the same or abandon your other chosen faith.

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. 13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;....................................

Now in the above a new element of the flood and destruction is introduced by the word of God. The fountains of the great deep were broken up. We know and can observe the destructive potential and effect of liquids being propelled by or under extreme pressures. The scriptures describe such an event occurring on a global scale regarding fountains of water from very deep under the earth, breaking up and or forth upon the earth.

Nevertheless, I do not believe we can actually envision the destructive force and power of such waters being propelled by the pressure of countless billions of tons of earth on top of them. This is regarding things we can comprehend and do understand, but of a magnitude far far beyond anything we have ever observed or could reproduce.

This along with other information the scriptures do give us regarding the pre-flood world, which suggests that far more of the waters of earth were underground in that world, also adds to the potential of destruction that such an event would cause. According to scripture, it did not rain before the flood, but the waters of this world were distributed through mist or vapor which came up through the ground. The pre-flood world had a completely different system of water distribution unto life, than our present world does. A system that would no doubt make the destruction caused by the fountains of the great deep breaking up or forth, far more destructive then, than now.

Again though, you deny the extent of destruction depicted in scripture multiple times over, and any logical observations concerning such according to your other faith.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days......................................

And again, scripture emphatically specifies the global destruction of earth and all life upon it, which you must deny according to your other chosen faith. There is perfect clarity from scripture concerning these things. No need for anyone of faith in them to be confused or uncertain. It is only those who allow faith in other sources over and above the same, that must impose confusion or uncertainty upon scriptural testimony according to the dictates of the same. Subjecting scripture to some standard believed to be above the same, instead of the proper order of scripture as the primary authority to which others should conform.

8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; 2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; 3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. 4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. 5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen..............................

Either the above happened, or it did not. Your other chosen faith cannot allow for it to have happened. Because if it did, there would be evidence of such a tremendous global receding of waters which arose far above every mountain. Which indeed there is.

Sea shells and other ocean fossils on mountains the world over. Fossils buried in mud the world over. Tremendous deposits hundreds miles long and miles deep of sand, coal, oil, various sediments and what have you the world over. Having been distributed or buried rapidly the world over most logically by massive movements of water and or water saturated earth and mud. Huge canyons formed by rapid movement of obviously very large bodies of water. Other canyons and geographical features obviously formed by more slow processes of moving waters, to mention just a few.

You simply must deny all of this is connected to the testimony of scripture, because such has detrimental effect upon your other chosen contradictory faith. Biblical testimony of the creation and flood destroy claims of deep time evolution theory. 

Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

And again, and again, floods destroyed all flesh and the earth, and again the promise that God will not ever again destroy all flesh and the earth by flood. You simply must deny these conclusive statements of scripture again and again, while choosing to hold onto another contradictory faith. This is your choice, not anything to do with uncertainty concerning the testimony of Scripture, but rather what you must deny according to said choice.

Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

And again, and again, even from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Who testified that the flood took them all away, and destroyed them all. Yet your faith lies elsewhere.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:...........................

And again, the New Testament scriptures specifically address the other faith you have chosen in your denial of the global flood, declaring you personally to be willingly ignorant of this one particular event. Yet you continue to deny the same, in favor of your precious chosen other faith.

You can pretend that you have to invent new scriptures in order to believe that this world and all life on land was previously destroyed by water by God, and all the evidence supporting the same, but such has nothing to do with reality. It is your own make believe world, where the scriptures do not emphatically testify of such, so that you may embrace another contradictory faith. A faith which is in line with many who have created their own make believe world as well, where there is no God, or therefore responsibility to Him. So be it.

[4WD]

It is not hard to imagine or extrapolate if you will...

For you that is obvious.  And you do it so well and call it Scripture.

[Amo]

For you that is obvious.  And you do it so well and call it Scripture.

One example of me calling creationist observations scripture, would prove your point. Here we are.

I'm not sure anyone can top the many wild speculations and or extrapolations evolutionists have made. A few of which I have addressed in previous posts. Maybe you could share creationist examples of the same.

[The Barbarian]

The one in PA is called the "little Grand Canyon" and is a specific destination for travelers, campers and hikers...
And while not as grand as the AZ one..... it is only 47 miles, and 1000 ft deep .... it breaks up the boredom of so many trees.

Unlike the Grand Canyon, Pine Creek Gorge is very recent.   At the end of the last ice age, the northeasternly flow of the stream was blocked by glacial debris, forming a large lake.   When it broke though the dam, the new river carved a deep and narrow gorge as new rivers usually do.   The real Grand Canyon was formed in a different process, when the area was uplifted, "rejuvenating"  the river, which was then trapped in it's existing bed, cutting deeper and deeper into the older rock below.

[The Barbarian]

Zerikekiah.  It comes right after 2nd Condominiums. It is quoted in the book of Collusions.

Would that be 1 Collusions or 2 Collusions?

[Rella]

[The Barbarian]

Of course not. God does not lie. Nor does He need to create fairy tales to express truth.

Right.   It wasn't God who invented the doctrine of YE creationism.    That is a man-made example.

Evolution, Not.

We see it happening everywhere.   As I mentioned earlier, if you knew what biological evolution is, you'd be more effective here.

Genetics, we are far from precisely understanding,

Which of Mendel's principles do you think has been falsified?  Creationists are very confident in their abilities to tell us things God has not.

accepting among those with exaggerated confidence in our abilities apart fro God.

Well, yes.

[The Barbarian]

The middle ground between light and shadow is called a "penumbra."   The middle ground between science and superstition is called "intelligent design."

But the Fifth Dimension...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPK7ZF6jfJE

[4WD]

One example of me calling creationist observations scripture, would prove your point. Here we are.

A global flood.

[Amo]

A global flood.

Yes the scriptures do detail a global flood as I have conclusively demonstrated, though the term global flood itself is not found in scripture. Unless it exists in some translation I have not read. The bible and scientists speak of a global flood. Many of the latter just reject God's word concerning creation and the flood, preferring their own faulty observations concerning the same, namely deep time evolution and a meteor impact global flood event.

https://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Huge-asteroid-caused-mile-high-tidal-waves-2112268.php

Huge asteroid caused mile-high tidal waves

.......................................

"It would have taken only a second or two for a meteor that's 20 kilometers (12 miles) in diameter to pass through the ocean and impact the rock beneath," Lowe said. The impact would have created immense tidal waves -- rising perhaps a mile or more in height -- that raced around the globe again and again, scouring the ocean floor and eroding any bits of dry land, he said...............................

https://www.iflscience.com/environment/dinosaurkilling-asteroid-created-a-milehigh-tsunami-that-swept-through-the-worlds-oceans/

Dinosaur-Killing Asteroid Created A Mile-High Tsunami That Swept Through The World's Oceans

Now, researchers have created the first global simulation of the tsunamis that followed the Chicxulub impact. The team modeled what happened 10 minutes after the impact. The crater was around 1.5 kilometers (1mile) deep, and all the water was pushed out on impact. Then the water rushed back into the crater, meeting the Earth's crust that was pushed up by the impact, before rushing back out, forming the "collapse wave". This type of displacement tsunami is known as a megatsunami.

"As far as we know, we are the first to globally model the tsunami from impact to the end of wave propagation," lead author Molly Range, from the University of Michigan, told Live Science. "It wasn't until starting this project that I realized the actual scale of this tsunami, and it's been a fun research story to share."

The first wave was estimated to be an incredible 1.5 kilometers (1 mile) in height, but the ones that followed were also huge. The model showed that in the first 24 hours, these tidal waves spread from the Gulf of Mexico to both the North Atlantic and the Pacific oceans (the Americas weren't connected back then). The complexity of the simulation increased by the 48 hours mark as waves reflected and refracted around the world.

The team estimated that the impact tidal wave was at least 2,600 times more energetic than the December 26, 2004, Indian Ocean Tsunami, which is one of the largest tsunamis on record. Upper limits put the energy ratio at a number over 10 times higher. The team also suggests that the tsunamis might have disturbed sediments over 6,000 kilometers (3,700 miles) away from the impact origin and the seas and oceans experienced waves 14 meters (46 feet) high in both the North Atlantic and South Pacific. In some spots in the Gulf of Mexico, the waves were up to 100 meters (330 feet) high.

The study, yet to be published, was presented at the Fall Meeting of the American Geophysical Union in Washington in December. A follow-up study is also awaiting publication, which will corroborate the model with evidence of the predicted sediment disruption.

https://eos.org/articles/huge-global-tsunami-followed-dinosaur-killing-asteroid-impact

Huge Global Tsunami Followed Dinosaur-Killing Asteroid Impact

Of course, those who reject the biblical account of a global flood, will have to come up with an alternate explanation of the evidence suggesting the same which is found the world over. These are no doubt the sources you choose to believe over and above scripture. Do you deny their claims of a global flood as well, or just the scriptural version which conclusively states that God caused it rather than a meteor?