Creation scientists

[4WD]

In my opinion:

Trying to reconcile the Biblical story of creation and science is a fool's errand.

But trying to reconcile the science of this universe with the Biblical story of creation is not a fool's errand.  God said, through David in Psalms 19:1 that "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. " That seems to me to be an invitation by God that we should search the heavens to find that glory and search the sky to discover His handiwork.

We are (supposed to be) people of Faith.  Our God is the one who created the laws of physics and time and can do with them as He wants.  We need to understand that Our God is NOT ruled by those laws, not even the rules of logic that science is based on.

God is not, but we certainly are.  Those laws of physics and time do not conflict with faith in any sense.

After all, is there any logical or scientific way a person can come back to life, in full health, 3 days after being severely brutalized and killed?  NO.  And yet if we claim to be Christians, that is exactly what we MUST believe.

Neither logic nor science precludes the existence of signs, wonders and miracles. Believing in God's providence, including miracles, is not in conflict with science.

[Rella]

In my opinion:

Trying to reconcile the Biblical story of creation and science is a fool's errand.

Agreed

We are (supposed to be) people of Faith.  Our God is the one who created the laws of physics and time and can do with them as He wants.  We need to understand that Our God is NOT ruled by those laws, not even the rules of logic that science is based on.

Again agreed...   

Hebrews 11:3  By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

It is only by faith that we understand this.

After all, is there any logical or scientific way a person can come back to life, in full health, 3 days after being severely brutalized and killed?  NO.  And yet if we claim to be Christians, that is exactly what we MUST believe.

It is man, in his arrogance, that has need to understand the very mind and ways of God when that simply is not possible.
.

[4WD]

It is man, in his arrogance, that has need to understand the very mind and ways of God when that simply is not possible.
.

It is theologians, not scientists, who have the need to understand the very mind and ways of God.  Science does not even enter into that realm.  So that even when scientists, as individuals, seek to understand the very mind and ways of God, it is theology, not science, that they are appealing to.

[Choir Loft]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pk9oDrpf6k

Good video, which points out among other things, that atheist and evolutionary scientists are riding upon the backs of the developments of creation believing scientists. They hijacked scientific methodology and investigation from scientists who believed in God and creation, and now insist that no creationist can be a scientist. Their prophet Darwin, gave them an alternative form of science which eliminated God from the scenario, and now they seek to lord this over all demanding that a creationist cannot be a scientist. This as though faith in the scriptures excludes scientific methodology and investigation, while faith in their prophet Darwin embodies the same.

To the contrary, the reintroduction of the holy scriptures to the people in their vernacular, enlightened minds, aroused curiosities, and paved the way to freedoms and liberties allowing for the development of scientific investigation and methodology by predominantly creation believing scientists. The efforts and progress of the same were hijacked by atheists and evolutionists and applied to the imaginings of the preferred prophet of their faith, Charles Darwin. Now they falsely contend that investigation into the faith based upon the words of their chosen prophet, is science, while investigation into faith based upon the prophets of holy scripture cannot be. BALONEY!

Your reference to baloney is too kind and gentle.  In my  opinion Darwinist theory is pure bovine excrement. 

Nazi propaganda relied upon SCIENTIFIC analysis of Jewish racial background.  Consequently Germans gladly pronounced Jews subHuman and proceeded to kill them like bugs.  Nazi SCIENTIFIC theory had been published widely in German universities since the 19th century and fueled an already present anti-Semitic attitude among the general population.  Textbooks and magazine articles validated hatred and misplaced desire for facts and figures and as a result millions of innocent people died in Europe's worse war in history. 

It should be pointed out that Chuck Darwin wrote Negros were sub-human and could not successfully integrate into European society or carry the intellectual weight of its people.  Darwinist theory is RACIST and as such is not based upon any accurate SCIENTIFIC facts whatsoever.  Finally it was Darwin who also wrote that if one portion of his theory fell apart the whole thing would be proved toxic and worthless.   His words are true, but today's atheistic approach denies objective examination of Darwin's premise.   Indeed, in many cases today they won't even debate the issue for fear of being proven wrong.

Is this science or bigotry?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[The Barbarian]

Your reference to baloney is too kind and gentle.  In my  opinion Darwinist theory is pure bovine excrement. 

Nazi propaganda relied upon SCIENTIFIC analysis of Jewish racial background.

No.   In fact, European Jews were genetically more like Europeans than they were like Jews from Asia or the Middle East.   It was all psuedoscientific junk, which had been effectively debunked by Darwinists like Reginald Punnett (of Punnett square fame) before Hitler even came to power.

It should be pointed out that Chuck Darwin wrote Negros were sub-human and could not successfully integrate into European society or carry the intellectual weight of its people.

That's wrong,too.   Darwin scandalized European society by asserting that if one brought a group of "savages" to England, in a few generations, they would be just like Englishmen.

[Amo]

But trying to reconcile the science of this universe with the Biblical story of creation is not a fool's errand.  God said, through David in Psalms 19:1 that "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. " That seems to me to be an invitation by God that we should search the heavens to find that glory and search the sky to discover His handiwork.God is not, but we certainly are.  Those laws of physics and time do not conflict with faith in any sense.Neither logic nor science precludes the existence of signs, wonders and miracles. Believing in God's providence, including miracles, is not in conflict with science.

David also said -

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Which is in line of course with the creation account and the following commandment -

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Why should or would true science contradict what David said above, or the fourth commandment either?

[4WD]

David also said -

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Which is in line of course with the creation account and the following commandment -

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Why should or would true science contradict what David said above, or the fourth commandment either?

Actually, true science contradicts neither of those passages.  But then you never read anything much of true science.  You are too busy reading the fake science that comes from the likes of answersingenesis.  I am sure that sites like that have people that truly believe what they present, but they are just wrong. The vast majority of the information and data available provided by God's own created universe says that they are wrong.  And it almost completely hinges on a misguided translation/interpretation of the Hebrew word "yom".  I have provided you with a couple of references that shows you why and how you are wrong.  But then you haven't read and won't read those either.

And science has nothing one way or the other to say about the fourth commandment.  That is not a matter of science at all.  But I imagine that you, in your warped view of science, might think it does.

[Rella]

David also said -

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Which is in line of course with the creation account and the following commandment -

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Why should or would true science contradict what David said above, or the fourth commandment either?

Why should or would true science contradict what David said above, or the fourth commandment either?....??


Sabbath for Hebrew is Shabbath which means intermission or cessation from work. Sabbath means rest day. When God finished the work that he (God) was doing, so on the seventh day he rested from his work. God blessed the seventh day and make it a holy day. God made it special because on that day he rested from all the work he did while creating the world this written in (Genesis 2:2-3). And this was the law given by God himself, in (Exodus 20:8) "You must remember to keep the Sabbath a special day."

https://www.allaboutbible.com/the-ten-commandments-in-the-bible/the-fourth-commandment-in-the-bible/#:~:text=The%20Fourth%20Commandment%20in%20the%20bible%20%28KJV%29%20Remember,keep%20it%20holy.%20Sabbath%20is%20the%20rest%20day.

Jesus said Sabbath observance was not a duty that mankind owed to God. Rather, God made the Sabbath as a day of rest for mankind's benefit (Mark 2:27)

There is no where that specifically tells us that God began creation on Sunday.

We are told it was the first day.

We also are told that
The fourth commandment in the bible is to keep the Sabbath day to keep it holy.  Sabbath is the rest day. Because six days God worked and rest on the seventh day. And God blessed the seventh day and keep it as a holy day.

(Exodus 20:8-11) "You must remember to keep the Sabbath a special day. You may work six days a week to do your job. But the seventh day is a rest day in honor of the Lord your God. So on that day no one should work – not you, your sons and daughters, or your men and women slaves. Even the animals of yours and the foreigners living in your cities must not work! That is because the Lord who is most high worked six days and made the sky, the sea, the earth, and everything in them. And on the seventh day, he rested. And In this way the Lord blessed the Sabbath (worship day) – the day of rest. He made that  a very special day."

So if you work Monday thru Saturday then Sunday would be your day of rest. Period.  Six days thou shall labor... NO mention of which 6 days...( if you have a biblical one then supply it )The seventh is a rest day that no one should work

[Amo]

Actually, true science contradicts neither of those passages.  But then you never read anything much of true science.  You are too busy reading the fake science that comes from the likes of answersingenesis.  I am sure that sites like that have people that truly believe what they present, but they are just wrong. The vast majority of the information and data available provided by God's own created universe says that they are wrong.  And it almost completely hinges on a misguided translation/interpretation of the Hebrew word "yom".  I have provided you with a couple of references that shows you why and how you are wrong.  But then you haven't read and won't read those either.

And science has nothing one way or the other to say about the fourth commandment.  That is not a matter of science at all.  But I imagine that you, in your warped view of science, might think it does.

Of course not. Words which proceeded directly out of the mouth of God to humanity, and were written with His own finger in stone twice, have nothing to do with science or facts. It is the words of your prophet Charles Darwin which are real science and fact, not holy scripture or God's word. Your "science" leads to conclusions and an entire system of belief which is not even hinted at anywhere in scripture. While at the same time casting obscurity upon the many verses which seem to blatantly contradict your "science" if taken for they they simply say. Which of course then must be interpreted according to said "science", because only your "science" is real science. Understanding God's word correctly therefore is completely dependent upon your "science" as a disciple of Charles Darwin the new prophet of God I suppose for the true "scientists" such as yourself. So kind of you to properly define real science for the rest of us, as that which you of course have chosen to believe. So be it.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

[Amo]

Why should or would true science contradict what David said above, or the fourth commandment either?....??


Sabbath for Hebrew is Shabbath which means intermission or cessation from work. Sabbath means rest day. When God finished the work that he (God) was doing, so on the seventh day he rested from his work. God blessed the seventh day and make it a holy day. God made it special because on that day he rested from all the work he did while creating the world this written in (Genesis 2:2-3). And this was the law given by God himself, in (Exodus 20:8) "You must remember to keep the Sabbath a special day."

https://www.allaboutbible.com/the-ten-commandments-in-the-bible/the-fourth-commandment-in-the-bible/#:~:text=The%20Fourth%20Commandment%20in%20the%20bible%20%28KJV%29%20Remember,keep%20it%20holy.%20Sabbath%20is%20the%20rest%20day.

Jesus said Sabbath observance was not a duty that mankind owed to God. Rather, God made the Sabbath as a day of rest for mankind's benefit (Mark 2:27)

There is no where that specifically tells us that God began creation on Sunday.

We are told it was the first day.

We also are told that
The fourth commandment in the bible is to keep the Sabbath day to keep it holy.  Sabbath is the rest day. Because six days God worked and rest on the seventh day. And God blessed the seventh day and keep it as a holy day.

(Exodus 20:8-11) "You must remember to keep the Sabbath a special day. You may work six days a week to do your job. But the seventh day is a rest day in honor of the Lord your God. So on that day no one should work – not you, your sons and daughters, or your men and women slaves. Even the animals of yours and the foreigners living in your cities must not work! That is because the Lord who is most high worked six days and made the sky, the sea, the earth, and everything in them. And on the seventh day, he rested. And In this way the Lord blessed the Sabbath (worship day) – the day of rest. He made that  a very special day."

So if you work Monday thru Saturday then Sunday would be your day of rest. Period.  Six days thou shall labor... NO mention of which 6 days...( if you have a biblical one then supply it )The seventh is a rest day that no one should work

Apparently you missed the point I was making, which was in relation to the theory of evolution, not which day of the week is Sabbath. We could debate your above comments here, but it would be off topic. God and scripture say nowhere to choose a day in seven, they both specify the seventh day. God didn't forget which day that was when He had the nation He created begin to observe it again.

[4WD]

It is the words of your prophet Charles Darwin which are real science and fact, not holy scripture or God's word. Your "science" leads to conclusions and an entire system of belief which is not even hinted at anywhere in scripture.

You need to climb off of that high horse of self-righteousness that you are riding.  Charles Darwin is not my prophet.  I am as much a creationist than you, just not a young earth creationist.  I just don't ignore and/or lie like you do about the data and information that has been made available by God Himself.

But then maybe you wouldn't look so ridiculous on that high horse if you weren't sitting on him backward.

[RB]

But then maybe you wouldn't look so ridiculous on that high horse if you weren't sitting on him backward.

That's funny, but I must ask....are you speaking from experience?

I'm leaving for vacation to the Gulf of Mexico~farther east than where Ida came ashore in a couple of days until after Labor day, so you be nice while I'm gone.

[DaveW]

Sabbath for Hebrew is Shabbath which means intermission or cessation from work. Sabbath means rest day.

Short lesson on Hebrew:

1 - there is no "th" sound in Hebrew. That is an addition by christian seminaries to make it sound more like Greek.

2 - Sabbath - is pronounced Shabbat.  (or in Ashkenazi Shabbas) It is spelled  שַׁבָּת   
The 2nd letter (bet, vet) can either sound as a B or as a V.  And at its root means the number 7. 

So when confronted with "seven sabbaths" in Lev 23.16, הַשַּׁבָּת הַשְּׁבִיעִת    there was some confusion about whether it was supposed to be seven sabbaths or seven weeks.  The Sadducees chose the former and the Pharisees chose the latter.

3 - As to the cessation of work, that came about because the seventh day was commanded as a day of rest.  It is not intrinsic to the word itself.  Just like in english, the word "ambulance" which comes from the Latin ambulare - to walk, has little to do with walking.  But in WW1, when someone was injured on the battle field, several men would take a litter and walk the soldier off to the nearest medical station.  Ambulance. To walk. 

[Amo]

You need to climb off of that high horse of self-righteousness that you are riding.  Charles Darwin is not my prophet.  I am as much a creationist than you, just not a young earth creationist.  I just don't ignore and/or lie like you do about the data and information that has been made available by God Himself.

But then maybe you wouldn't look so ridiculous on that high horse if you weren't sitting on him backward.

I have no righteousness, let alone self righteousness. Filthy rags are the best I have to offer, and I don't even do that well.

Confidence in God's word though, is not filthy rags in any sense. Faith is itself a gift from God. Yet here you are calling it self righteousness, ridiculousness, and backward. So be it.

Here we are, share your supposed data and information. Then we will see if it really proves your chosen faith, which is found nowhere in scripture at all. It will no doubt be found that your evidence is not evidence at all, but rather your own accepted interpretation of such, just like your deep time evolutionary creation story is, in relation to scripture. It simply is not there at all, unless you make it so with your own or someone else's accepted theory. Make this or that scripture mean what you wish, and ignore any which contradicts such.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,............................
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

There is no mistaking the above testimony. You simply reject it, because your faith lies elsewhere.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

This is the faith that you do not have. Because you will not have it.

[4WD]

Faith is itself a gift from God.

Only in the sense that all good things come from God.  But faith is not something given to one that is not given to all.  But you see, not only do you not understand God's creation, you do not really understand what faith is. But don't feel bad, there are many like you that do not.

Yet here you are calling it self righteousness, ridiculousness, and backward. So be it.

I didn't say anything about your faith being self-righteousness.  It is not your faith; rather it is you that I called self-righteous. That may not be how your interpreted it.  As you say, so be it.

Here we are, share your supposed data and information. Then we will see if it really proves your chosen faith, which is found nowhere in scripture at all.

Begin with "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork" (Psa 19:1), and then let the studies of the heavens take you where it will.  But you won't do that.  Perhaps it is too far above you, no pun intended.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

The very interesting thing about all of that is that it does not in the slightest way oppose anything that I have said about the creation.

[DaveW]

Only in the sense that all good things come from God.  But faith is not something given to one that is not given to all.

Faith is a gift:

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

And there is a special gift (charism) of faith given only to some:

1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

[4WD]

Faith is a gift:

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

And there is a special gift (charism) of faith given only to some:

1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Your rendering of the Corinthian passage is correct.  There was given to some a gift from the Spirit in the form of extraordinary faith.  It is much the same in the sense of a gift as that given to some by the laying on of hands to yield the speaking in tongues and prophesying. But that was limited to only a few as were the other supernatural gifts of the Spirit.

However, your, and too often a typical, rendering of Romans 12:3 is incorrect. It is not faith that is a gift being measured out as some profess.  The passage of Romans 12:1-8 is speaking about gifts of grace.  The gifts include prophecy, service, teaching, exhortation, contributions, leadership, acts of mercy (vv.6-8). Such gifts are given in a measure according to faith.  Those of no faith are given no gifts of grace.  Those with faith are given such gifts; and those gifts are given according to how God, through the Holy Spirit, judges the faith of the one being given those gifts.  See this in verses 6 through 8:  "Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith....."

The faith as you, I and others today, have and profess is not a gift. 

[DaveW]

However, your, and too often a typical, rendering of Romans 12:3 is incorrect. It is not faith that is a gift being measured out as some profess. 

You can take that up with the translators of the NASB 95. 

The faith as you, I and others today, have and profess is not a gift.

Of course it is.  As Paul wrote:

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God speaking to us is not a gift?

[4WD]

You can take that up with the translators of the NASB 95.

I don't need to take that up with NASB 95, I only need to read what it says.  As I noted it is talking about the gifts of grace meted out by God in accordance with the faith of the one receiving those gifts

Of course it is.  As Paul wrote:

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God speaking to us is not a gift?

Actually it is "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ", or the word about Christ.  And it is the word of Christ [or the word about Christ] through the Bible, that is the gift.  What anyone does with hearing [or reading] is up to them.  Some reject it; some accept it but don't do much about it and it goes unused; some accept it and act on it for a little while but then give up on it; some accept it and hold fast to it.  You can see this from Jesus' own teaching on it in the parable of the sower.

So I repeat.  Faith as you and I have is not a gift.  The seed, the Bible, the word of God, is the gift.

[Rella]

You can take that up with the translators of the NASB 95.  Of course it is.  As Paul wrote:

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God speaking to us is not a gift?

I see it not as God speaking to us as a gift, but our understanding of what he says is the gift.

[4WD]

I see it not as God speaking to us as a gift, but our understanding of what he says is the gift.

In a very real sense,  God speaking to us and our ability to understand what He says are both gifts. However we can understand what He says and still not believe in Him.  I can understand what the young earth creationist says but I don't believe him.  And here again, the capacity for believing or not is a gift, perhaps one of the greatest gifts given to mankind by God. For that is the gift of free will and that is one way in which we, apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, were created in the image of God.

[Rella]

In a very real sense,  God speaking to us and our ability to understand what He says are both gifts. However we can understand what He says and still not believe in Him.  I can understand what the young earth creationist says but I don't believe him.  And here again, the capacity for believing or not is a gift, perhaps one of the greatest gifts given to mankind by God. For that is the gift of free will and that is one way in which we, apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, were created in the image of God.

"However we can understand what He says and still not believe in Him." I agree with this to a certain extent. It certainly is evidenced by the actions and lifestyles of humanity as a whole.

Do you think there is a possibility that ,even with freewill, that God expects humans to ... I wont go so far as to say not believe Him... but disagree on what He says. Could that be why certain people see things one way while others see them differently?

I am not a young earther. But my beliefs are different from yours and others. I have gotten to my beliefs... talking Genesis creation stuff now ... by what I read and the understanding I have of the words I read which is totally opposite then say someone like RB.

As to a young earth, the only portion I subscribe to  is the account of Adam and the woman God created from him.  And I see it clearly that this part of creation is separate from the overall plan of things.... and that Adam was set apart for a reason.

You will not agree with me, and no one else on here will either.... That is alright.

In the meantime Ill keep right on studying....

[4WD]

As to a young earth, the only portion I subscribe to  is the account of Adam and the woman God created from him.  And I see it clearly that this part of creation is separate from the overall plan of things.... and that Adam was set apart for a reason.

You will not agree with me, and no one else on here will either.... That is alright.

In the meantime Ill keep right on studying....

I also believe that Adam [and Eve] were "created" about six thousand years ago or so.  And I do believe that they were the first human beings, just not the first homo sapiens. They became the first human beings when God formed their spirits within them and that was at the end of the sixth "day".

Do you think there is a possibility that ,even with freewill, that God expects humans to ... I wont go so far as to say not believe Him... but disagree on what He says. Could that be why certain people see things one way while others see them differently?

I don't know that "expects" is the word I would chose there.  But I know that God knew that many would not believe and also that no one would obey Him perfectly in everything.

[Jaime]

4WD, did got expect perfect obedience from thebIsraelites in the OT. I would submit he didn't be ause if he did he gave them an unachievabke goal of obey and be blessed, disobey me and be cursed. I think he was looking more to the spirit of obedience, a legitimate heartfelt try rather than letterbof the law compliance. Jesus filled full the law by adding back in the Spirit to the letter of the law they had condensed down to.

[4WD]

Jaime, there is no indication at all that a "a legitimate heartfelt try rather than letter of the law compliance" would save.  And I disagree with your view of the meaning of Jesus' fulfilling the law.  Nothing that Jesus did in keeping the law perfectly has saved us.  If that were the case, then His death would not have been required.  In keeping the law perfectly as Jesus did, He only did what God commanded of the rest of us. He didn't do it so well that we are saved by His doing it.  What His keeping the Law perfectly accomplished was to make Him the perfect sacrifice as a propitiation on our behalf.  It was in His death that He became the perfect and complete sacrificial offering to God for our sins.  He didn't live in our stead, He died in our stead.

[Jaime]

In Mathew 5 in thebsermon on the mount, he filled up the law (fulfilled it or filled it full) that which he didn't come to abolish. Jesus soent the entire chapter expanding or filling up the Law to include not just the letter but the spirit of thenLaw.

My original question of did God give the Israelites an unachievable  command? No he didn't. His Laws were not impossible for them to keep, he expected them to keep them Perfectly? i say no, because as you say they couldn't. They were given the option of curse or blessing if they disobeyed or obeyed the Law. Didn't seem like an impossible task to me. But obeying his commands were not just mechanical responses of not killing someone or not committing adultery, but involved not hating your neighbor in your heart or lusting after another woman in your heart. Unachievable? I don't think God would have been that cruel.

Yes by his stripes and suffering and death we are healed and are freed from the PENALTY of the Law.

[4WD]

In Mathew 5 in thebsermon on the mount, he filled up the law (fulfilled it or filled it full) that which he didn't come to abolish. Jesus soent the entire chapter expanding or filling up the Law to include not just the letter but the spirit of then Law.

But, you see, I don't hold to that description of fulfilling the law.  He is unable to perfectly do the works of the law for us, no matter what that law is; but He is able to pay the penalty for us when we fail.  He does not declare us not guilty, He declares us penalty paid for the guilt.

My original question of did God give the Israelites an unachievable  command? No he didn't. His Laws were not impossible for them to keep, he expected them to keep them Perfectly? i say no, because as you say they couldn't. They were given the option of curse or blessing if they disobeyed or obeyed the Law. Didn't seem like an impossible task to me. But obeying his commands were not just mechanical responses of not killing someone or not committing adultery, but involved not hating your neighbor in your heart or lusting after another woman in your heart. Unachievable? I don't think God would have been that cruel.

It is not a matter of cruelty. It is, as Jesus stated, "on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt 16:18). So then what is his church?  It is the body of saints, those who, have believed and who love God, for whom all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose (Rom 8:28).

The whole purpose of God's creation was and is to build His church.

[Jaime]

 But that's my point, God never required perfect obedience of the Law. If he did, Israel had no choice but curse. That is not how I read the OT.

Also, I don't understand how you could say Jesus was not filling up the Law when he added back in the spirit of the Law. The Jews had emptied the Law from what God intended. Jesus was filling it back up in his " you have heard it said ........, but I say to you......" he had authority to properly interpret or fill full the Law that the Jews had emptied of the spirit leaving only the desolate letter of the Law.

[Amo]

Only in the sense that all good things come from God.  But faith is not something given to one that is not given to all.  But you see, not only do you not understand God's creation, you do not really understand what faith is. But don't feel bad, there are many like you that do not.I didn't say anything about your faith being self-righteousness.  It is not your faith; rather it is you that I called self-righteous. That may not be how your interpreted it.  As you say, so be it. Begin with "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork" (Psa 19:1), and then let the studies of the heavens take you where it will.  But you won't do that.  Perhaps it is too far above you, no pun intended.The very interesting thing about all of that is that it does not in the slightest way oppose anything that I have said about the creation.

I see you did to quote or address God's fourth commandment. This is no doubt because there is no way for you to work around this clear and concise statement directly from the mouth of God. To deny it, would be to question scripture itself. Nevertheless, to accept and teach that which contradicts it, is to deny it.

Though you may convince yourself that your chosen beliefs concerning evolution do not contradict the other scriptures I quoted, when considered along side the fourth commandment of God which you must apparently ignore, they surely do. According to the fourth commandment of God, the six day creation account of Genesis is accurate history, not allegory or symbolism. God spoke, and the things described in Genesis were done and stood fast.

Are you saying that you believe God created the worlds and heavens as described in the verses I quoted, as in He spoke, and they stood fast? If so, why would you deny He did so concerning the creation described in Genesis concerning this world and all life in it, as He reiterated in the fourth commandment? Or are those scriptures also subject to your interpretation of them concerning deep time scenarios, which scripture nowhere speaks of?

As someone already posted -

Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

There is nothing at all anywhere in scripture even hinting at anything like evolution. Your faith in this theory has nothing to do with the word of God at all. It is based solely upon the word and observations of man, apart from the word of God. Observations which lead away from simple conclusive statements of scripture, and are accepted and even used by countless people to deny the God of creation. Yet here you are contending that this is what God was referring to, when scripture says creation reveals Him. Your theory does not point people to Him, His creation, or His word. Again, and to the contrary, it has fueled the fires of atheism by supplying an alternate explanation of our origins which allows for His removal from the picture.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Your prophets and their theory are false, bringing forth evil fruits of atheism among those who deny God. The results of your theory will be witnessed by a great many who will burn in the lake of fire. Repent, and turn away from this soul damning doctrine of men. Away with this tradition of man which makes one of the commandments of God of none effect.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Why do you make the fourth commandment of God of no effect, by your commandment, doctrine, faith, and theory of men? Why do you pretend to honor God with your lips, while your heart is far away from Him?

[4WD]

But that's my point, God never required perfect obedience of the Law. If he did, Israel had no choice but curse. That is not how I read the OT.

All Israel prior to the Jesus' becoming a human being and living and dying on the cross had the same opportunity for salvation as we do now; namely faith.  In there case it was faith that the savior would come; in our case it is faith that Jesus is the savior that came.  There is not now nor ever was salvation under the law except to keep the law perfectly.  But of course as Paul said, no one had ever done that.

Also, I don't understand how you could say Jesus was not filling up the Law when he added back in the spirit of the Law. The Jews had emptied the Law from what God intended. Jesus was filling it back up in his " you have heard it said ........, but I say to you......" he had authority to properly interpret or fill full the Law that the Jews had emptied of the spirit leaving only the desolate letter of the Law.

Jesus didn't add anything to the law; rather He clarified its meaning as God always intended.  The word fulfill in English and in Greek typically means to complete, to satisfy, to carry out, to accomplish. That is the meaning all nineteen or twenty times it is used in the Gospels.  Even today to fulfill a law is to either obey the law or to carry out the punishment for disobeying the law.  Jesus did that by paying the penalty for disobeying the law.  That is why He came.  He didn't come to change or redefine the law.  God could have done that through anyone.

[4WD]

Why do you pretend to honor God with your lips, while your heart is far away from Him?

You really do like to pronounce judgment against anyone who disagrees with your theology.  There are many, many good solid faithful Christians who disagree with your view of creation.  You should be very, very careful about stepping in to do God's work in judging.

[Jaime]

Jesus certainly did properly interpret the Law and added in the spirit of the law as God had intended it. The Jews and their man made rukes concerning the Law had emptied the Law of its essence and Jesus properly interpretted it. It wasn't enough just to not murder it was against the Law of God to harbor anger in ones heart, etc. God didn't empty the Law, man did.

So perfect obedience that they couldn't possibly achieve was put before them by God? Kinda cruel it seems. (Paraphrase) In case ya'll can do the impossible, I will bless you? If not I will curse you? How was the Israelites to comply with God's offer in Deut 28?

[4WD]

Jesus certainly did properly interpret the Law and added in the spirit of the law as God had intended it. The Jews and their man made rukes concerning the Law had emptied the Law of its essence and Jesus properly interpretted it. It wasn't enough just to not murder it was against the Law of God to harbor anger in ones heart, etc. God didn't empty the Law, man did.

Again you are using the word "fulfill" in a way which I disagree with.

So perfect obedience that they couldn't possibly achieve was put before them by God? Kinda cruel it seems. (Paraphrase) In case ya'll can do the impossible, I will bless you? If not I will curse you? How was the Israelites to comply with God's offer in Deut 28?

That is the conundrum posed by God's giving man free will.  You are presenting God's creation of mankind in exactly the same as God's creation of the whole rest of the animal kingdom. Animals basically function exactly as God created them to do.  Even when some of the higher animals make decisions about this or that, there is no right or wrong associated with it; there is no good or evil to be associated with it.  But they cannot love God.  Man is different; God created him differently when he formed in him a spirit in His own image.  God recognized that man would not, as He created him, be perfect in obedience; and because of that God established even before creation a way out.  That way out was available from the very outset; it didn't just become available when Jesus came;  It was available because He came but His sacrifice was retroactive back to the very beginning of creation.  Cruel?  Some might see it that way, but apparently that is the only way to "build His church" in people who by choice love God.  God did not, as the Calvinist claims, force some to love Him and prohibit the rest from loving Him.

And by the way, God did bless many even though they did not obey perfectly.  He did and still does.

[Jaime]

And I contend he would have blessed Istael if their heart had been right even short of perfect obedience. Also, one must strive hard not to see that Jesus filled full the Law in all of Mathew 5. I realize it goes against all we have been taught. I of course challenge orthodoxy for orthodoxy's sake.

I am not at all saying this is the only aspect of fulfill that Jesus did. Even the dictionary gives my definition to fill up.

[Amo]

Jesus certainly did properly interpret the Law and added in the spirit of the law as God had intended it. The Jews and their man made rukes concerning the Law had emptied the Law of its essence and Jesus properly interpretted it. It wasn't enough just to not murder it was against the Law of God to harbor anger in ones heart, etc. God didn't empty the Law, man did.

So perfect obedience that they couldn't possibly achieve was put before them by God? Kinda cruel it seems. (Paraphrase) In case ya'll can do the impossible, I will bless you? If not I will curse you? How was the Israelites to comply with God's offer in Deut 28?

Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luk 6:40  The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The goal can be nothing short of perfection, because our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was perfect. If one does not want to be perfect, they do not want to be like their Savior. So the believer seeks perfection which can only be observed and or obtained in and through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

The goal is perfection revealed in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But, if we sin, we have an advocate in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior as well. He is to be our goal of perfection, and advocate and Savior when we fall short. He is to be all in all to the saved. Whether seeking perfection according to God's will, or seeking forgiveness for our imperfections, we are to turn to Him alone through whom any can receive forgiveness from sins, or perfection of charector because His Holy Spirit dwells within. Being in Christ is justification, Christ in us is sanctification.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

We must be in Christ unto justification, and Christ must be in us unto sanctification. Christ must be all in all to His own. This is perfection.