Creation scientists

[4WD]

And I contend he would have blessed Istael if their heart had been right even short of perfect obedience.

Not with eternal life with Him in heaven.  He cannot do that.  It would violate His Holiness and His righteousness to not punish sin.

[Amo]

You really do like to pronounce judgment against anyone who disagrees with your theology.  There are many, many good solid faithful Christians who disagree with your view of creation.  You should be very, very careful about stepping in to do God's work in judging.

Theology be damned! False theology is deception, deception leads to death. I present no theology, just scripture. The fourth commandment is not theology, scripture is not theology, they are the word of God. God will condemn and punish all theology which contradicts His word and testimony to humanity. We may trifle with each others words with impunity, but none will trifle with God's word, and live into the next life to continue such. I do not claim to be your judge or anyone else's, but only that God's word is in fact the judge of all of us. We will either admit, and submit, to its truths, or we will perish along with the lies we have supported. This is the testimony of scripture.

2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What does the theory of evolution have to do with the word of God? Nothing. What doctrine does it profit? None. How can it be used to reprove, correct, or instruct in regards to righteousness? It cannot. How does it equip the man of God to be perfect, and furnished unto good works? It does not, and cannot. It is found nowhere in scripture at all. It is believed and preached by countless atheists and deniers of God. It came forth and originated within fallen humanity, and has no foundation in the word of God at all. Mixing or amalgamating false religion, philosophy, science, politics, or what have you of this world with the word of God is the exact definition and process of apostasy.

Humanities salvation is dependent upon our conversion and submission to the word of God alone, and never the other way around. God's word is not subject to anything in or of this world, all is subject to it. God's word does not conform to anything in and of this world, all will conform to it, or perish. This is not because God is like us by way of forcing His will upon others who may differ, but simply because God is, and we are not. Apart from Him there is nothing, and we are nothing. Evolution is a big fat zero, having originated from beings who are themselves literally nothing apart from Christ Jesus our Lord. Nothing originating from fallen humanity will exist in the near future, and will be completely forgotten. The word of God though, endures forever.

Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Isa 40:8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

2Pe 3:3  Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

All the world will be judged by the WORD OF GOD, which endures forever. Those who believed and submitted to it in Christ Jesus our Lord, shall endure wit it. Those who trifled with it, trying to conform it to their own understanding or ideas contrary to the same, will perish along with their own creations. For they are not able to sustain them, but God's word endures forever.

[Jaime]

4WD, HIS (Jesus') obedience IS perfect. THAT Is the standard we are held to. My point was, if Israel was never able to obey him to his satisfaction, He gave them an unattainable goal when he said choose blessing or curse back in Deuteronomy. I believe God would have blessed Israel IF their hearts were right, even short of perfect obedience. He cursed them BECAUSE their hearts were not right, not because they fell short of perfection. I am NOT saying God will tolerate less than perfection eternally. THAT is why he sent Jesus, the perfect one.

[4WD]

Be careful when you try to extrapolate God's dealing with Israel to other nations or other people.  God dealt with Israel quite differently than He dealt with individuals even under the Law of Moses.  He deals differently with individuals under the New Covenant differently that those under the Old Covenant.  And He deals considerably different with nations then and now from how He dealt with Israel.  Israel was a theocracy under the Old Covenant; so such arrangement exists today.

[4WD]

Theology be damned! False theology is deception, deception leads to death. I present no theology, just scripture.

You rally need to grow up and quit being the petty little theological tyrant you so often display.  The second you post anything except scripture, then you present your own theology. And if you do not understand that you are to be much pitied.

[Jaime]

So 4WD, why would God present to them a deal he knew they had no way of upholding? If there was no way to obey Him as he required, why the offer? In Deut 30:11, God says his commands are not too hard. Seems a far cry from impossible.

NO argument that Jesus is OUR perfection and it's His righteous and obedience that is in our stead. My question about THEIR obedience is purely in the context of the OT. I have heard all my life it was impossible for them to obey God's commandments. Deut 30:11 doesn't indicate that.

[Rella]

False theology is deception, deception leads to death. I present no theology, just scripture.

Are the scriptures you present with commentary your thoughts and understanding or are they that of Ellen White?

The fourth commandment is not theology, scripture is not theology, they are the word of God. God will condemn and punish all theology which contradicts His word and testimony to humanity.

All the world will be judged by the WORD OF GOD, which endures forever. Those who believed and submitted to it in Christ Jesus our Lord, shall endure wit it. Those who trifled with it, trying to conform it to their own understanding or ideas contrary to the same, will perish along with their own creations. For they are not able to sustain them, but God's word endures forever.

In other words you are of the opinion that many of us are doing as you suggest in conforming scripture to our own understanding.... albeit not just ours alone but that of our churches and synagogues from where we were originally taught.... is that correct?

And you are totally comfortable with your own faith and beliefs because of the original teachings of Mrs White. Is that correct?

First I would like to know who it is that determines if and what theology is false? On what, exactly do you base that on?

Last... this is an extremely long article that I copied a small part of below. Bolding and underlining are by me.

https://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/six_days_of_creation.html

It is quite an interesting read, but in case you choose not to read it all, then what is copied I need you to tell me why it is wrong.

Day Seven: God Rested

The narrative of the seventh day states:

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God � rested � from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy�(Gen. 2:1-3)

Young-Earth View

Young-earth creationists believe the seventh day of God's rest was a 24-hour period. Based on the statement in Exodus 20:11 (ESV), "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day," they maintain the creation "week" was a period of seven 24-hour days.

Old-Earth View

Old-earth creationists contend the seventh day is an ongoing period. Although God continues His providential work of preserving and governing His creation, He is at rest in the sense that He is no longer creating. Because the seventh day is a period of indeterminate length, they argue this is evidence the other creation days are not 24-hour periods.

Exegetical Support

The seventh day lacks the concluding "evening/morning" refrain found in the narratives of the other creation days. This indicates God's Sabbath rest is ongoing. Since God's Sabbath rest is unending, the seventh day must be unending.98 The New Testament confirms the seventh day of God's rest is an ongoing reality.99 For example in Hebrews, God invites us, present tense, to join Him in His Sabbath rest:

For we who have believed enter that rest, as he said, �As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest,' although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: �And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.' And again in this passage he said, �They shall not enter my rest.' (Hebrews 4:3-5, ESV).

The English translation of Exodus 20:11, "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and earth..." makes make it sound as though God created everything within the confines of six calendar-days. However, the preposition "in" does not appear in the original Hebrew.100 Rather, the verse is more correctly translated, "For six y�ms the LORD made..." The addition of "in" originated with the King James Version translation and "played a significant role in the advocacy of the creation days being completed within 144 hours (6x24)."101 When the verse is correctly translated, it is clear the creation "days" could have been long time periods.

The reference to the Sabbath in Exodus 20 seems to refer to the pattern of "days," not their duration.102 The emphasis is on the pattern of work and rest, a ratio of six to one, not on the length of the creation days. Exodus 20:9 addresses the work-week of humans (seven 24-hour days); Exodus 20:11 addresses the work-week of God (seven time periods). Thus, as Hebrew scholar Gleason Archer notes: "By no means does this [Exodus 20:9-11] demonstrate that 24-hour intervals were involved in the first six �days,' any more than the eight-day celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles proves that the wilderness wanderings under Moses occupied only eight days."103 In Leviticus 25:4 the pattern of one out of seven is duplicated with six years of planting the land and one year of "Sabbath rest for the land."104

This further demonstrates the analogy of our Sabbath to God's Sabbath does not demand that the creation "week" consisted of seven 24-hour days

[4WD]

So why would God present to them a deal he knew they had no way of upholding? If there was no way to obey Him as he required, why the offer? In Deut 30:11, God says his commands are not too hard. Seems a far cry from impossible.

Because that is what is right and that is how we were/are supposed to live.

NO argument that Jesus is OUR perfection and it's His righteous and obedience that is in our stead.

No, Jesus is not our perfection and it is not His righteousness and obedience that is in our stead.  His righteousness is imputed to us. It is only the punishment He endured that is in our stead.

  I have heard all my life it was impossible for them to obey God's commandments.

No, it is was not impossible for them to obey God's commandments. It is only that no one has obeyed God's commandments perfectly.

There is so much to be said about this; so much to the entire Bible deals with this very subject.

[Jaime]

Did they have to obey perfectly to be blessed by God and avoid His curses? I say no. God said what he asked them to do was doable by them in essence. Perfectly? I doubt it, but good enough for him to bless them and not curse them. They chose curse apparently.

[4WD]

Jaime, you are looking at God's dealings with Israel as a nation and, inappropriately, trying to correlate that with God's dealings with individuals.  Other than that I don't know what your point is.

[Amo]

You rally need to grow up and quit being the petty little theological tyrant you so often display.  The second you post anything except scripture, then you present your own theology. And if you do not understand that you are to be much pitied.

Yes, I understand that having no scriptural argument or even basis, one is left with nothing but personal attacks and insults.

So, if someone reads and or quotes scripture, and then determines that the scripture means just what it says, that is theology? Is this what theology is to you?

[4WD]

Yes, I understand that having no scriptural argument or even basis, one is left with nothing but personal attacks and insults.

There are few here who spend more time in personal attacks and insults than you, Amo. 

[Amo]

False theology is deception, deception leads to death. I present no theology, just scripture.

Are the scriptures you present with commentary your thoughts and understanding or are they that of Ellen White?

The fourth commandment is not theology, scripture is not theology, they are the word of God. God will condemn and punish all theology which contradicts His word and testimony to humanity.

All the world will be judged by the WORD OF GOD, which endures forever. Those who believed and submitted to it in Christ Jesus our Lord, shall endure wit it. Those who trifled with it, trying to conform it to their own understanding or ideas contrary to the same, will perish along with their own creations. For they are not able to sustain them, but God's word endures forever.

In other words you are of the opinion that many of us are doing as you suggest in conforming scripture to our own understanding.... albeit not just ours alone but that of our churches and synagogues from where we were originally taught.... is that correct?

And you are totally comfortable with your own faith and beliefs because of the original teachings of Mrs White. Is that correct?

Exo 20:1  And God spake all these words, saying,........................................
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The above quoted scriptures are not theology, they are scripture. More over, as these scriptures testify themselves, they are words spoken directly out of the mouth of God to Israel, which He also wrote in stone with His own finger twice for Israel. All who reject the above words of God, or try to add or subtract form them, according to their own ideas or theologies are in danger of judgment. This is a no brainer.

Ellen White did not write the fourth commandment, God did. You are not contending with her or me on this issue. You are contending with the word of God. If or when I quote someone, I reference that quote. There is very little if anything at all concerning bible doctrine, which originated with Ellen White. Your suggestion that my shared thoughts are really her thoughts, are misplaced. You will have to go much further back in time than Ellen White, to find the source of most if not all bible doctrine she agreed with, and expounded upon.

If you need proof of this, just present whatever doctrine you think originated with her, and I will show you otherwise or admit of the same. Do you really contend, that every bible believer who expresses biblical truth that someone before them also believed and expressed, is merely espousing their theology? If so, no one really believes scripture today then. For as scripture itself states, "there is nothing new under the sun".

[Amo]

There are few here who spend more time in personal attacks and insults than you, Amo.

Examples please, and I will apologize.

[Amo]

Day Seven: God Rested

The narrative of the seventh day states:

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God � rested � from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy�(Gen. 2:1-3)

Young-Earth View

Young-earth creationists believe the seventh day of God's rest was a 24-hour period. Based on the statement in Exodus 20:11 (ESV), "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day," they maintain the creation "week" was a period of seven 24-hour days.

Old-Earth View

Old-earth creationists contend the seventh day is an ongoing period. Although God continues His providential work of preserving and governing His creation, He is at rest in the sense that He is no longer creating. Because the seventh day is a period of indeterminate length, they argue this is evidence the other creation days are not 24-hour periods.

Exegetical Support

The seventh day lacks the concluding "evening/morning" refrain found in the narratives of the other creation days. This indicates God's Sabbath rest is ongoing. Since God's Sabbath rest is unending, the seventh day must be unending.98 The New Testament confirms the seventh day of God's rest is an ongoing reality.99 For example in Hebrews, God invites us, present tense, to join Him in His Sabbath rest:

For we who have believed enter that rest, as he said, �As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest,' although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: �And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.' And again in this passage he said, �They shall not enter my rest.' (Hebrews 4:3-5, ESV).

The English translation of Exodus 20:11, "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and earth..." makes make it sound as though God created everything within the confines of six calendar-days. However, the preposition "in" does not appear in the original Hebrew.100 Rather, the verse is more correctly translated, "For six y�ms the LORD made..." The addition of "in" originated with the King James Version translation and "played a significant role in the advocacy of the creation days being completed within 144 hours (6x24)."101 When the verse is correctly translated, it is clear the creation "days" could have been long time periods.

The reference to the Sabbath in Exodus 20 seems to refer to the pattern of "days," not their duration.102 The emphasis is on the pattern of work and rest, a ratio of six to one, not on the length of the creation days. Exodus 20:9 addresses the work-week of humans (seven 24-hour days); Exodus 20:11 addresses the work-week of God (seven time periods). Thus, as Hebrew scholar Gleason Archer notes: "By no means does this [Exodus 20:9-11] demonstrate that 24-hour intervals were involved in the first six �days,' any more than the eight-day celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles proves that the wilderness wanderings under Moses occupied only eight days."103 In Leviticus 25:4 the pattern of one out of seven is duplicated with six years of planting the land and one year of "Sabbath rest for the land."104

This further demonstrates the analogy of our Sabbath to God's Sabbath does not demand that the creation "week" consisted of seven 24-hour days

The above is theology. The following is the word of God.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Believing what the word of God above says is not theology, it is faith in the word of God. Believing your quote above, is believing some one's theology. Can you not see the difference?

[4WD]

So, if someone reads and or quotes scripture, and then determines that the scripture means just what it says, that is theology?

No, that is exegesis; perhaps with the help of some hermeneutics.  But you don't really know what it says.  Because what you read and quote is an English version and that is not what God says or said because what God said He said in Hebrew. And while I could be mistaken, you don't know Hebrew any better than I do. So right at the outset, what you read and quote is not what Scripture says.  Thus, when you think you have determined what it means, that is already steeped in what you want it to mean.

[Amo]

No, that is exegesis; perhaps with the help of some hermeneutics.  But you don't really know what it says.  Because what you read and quote is an English version and that is not what God says or said because what God said He said in Hebrew. And while I could be mistaken, you don't know Hebrew any better than I do. So right at the outset, what you read and quote is not what Scripture says.  Thus, when you think you have determined what it means, that is already steeped in what you want it to mean.

Yes, I understand your need for great uncertainty regarding the holy scriptures, especially concerning those areas upon which others disagree with you. Your personal wants or needs however, will never make anything regarding God's word true or false, or even obscure or beyond understanding. While it may be expedient for you, that no one understands God's word accurately, it is the expressed will of God that humanity does understand well enough to make educated decisions regarding truth and deception in accordance with it. Your wishful thinking to the contrary in support of your own unbiblical views and beliefs cannot and will not change this. If you have been found to have fought against the testimony of God's word in the end, your end it will be. As with the rest of us as well.

NO! God has not placed His word in our hands as the final word concerning the judgment of every person, and then left us in the dark concerning its actual meaning. This is your wish, according to the desire to reject some of its plain, conclusive, and easily understood testimony. There is not another book on earth, which has received nearly such intense work and collaboration of proper translation from one language to another. This according to the obvious purposes of God Himself, which you do obfuscate unto your own ends of disbelief. So be it.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

God did not inspire the above words to be written in His holy scriptures, and then leave countless millions of humanity in the ignorant condition you suggest. Rather, this is a simple case of the rejection of one simple conclusively stated scripture, leading to the rejection of another. So be it.

The testimony is simple and conclusive -

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Perhaps you should read, understand, and heed the following words of a man whom God declared a man after His own heart (Acts 13:22&23).

Your Word Is a Lamp to My Feet

Psalms 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord. 2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart. 3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. 4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. 5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes! 6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments. 7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments. 8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly. 9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. 10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. 11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. 12 Blessed art thou, O Lord: teach me thy statutes. 13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth. 14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches. 15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways. 16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word. 17 Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word. 18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. 19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me. 20 My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times. 21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments. 22 Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies. 23 Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes. 24 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counselors. 25 My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word. 26 I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes. 27 Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works. 28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word. 29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously. 30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me. 31 I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O Lord, put me not to shame. 32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart. 33 Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. 34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart. 35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight. 36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness. 37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way. 38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear. 39 Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good. 40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness. 41 Let thy mercies come also unto me, O Lord, even thy salvation, according to thy word. 42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word. 43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments. 44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. 45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts. 46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed. 47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved. 48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes. 49 Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope. 50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me. 51 The proud have had me greatly in derision: yet have I not declined from thy law. 52 I remembered thy judgments of old, O Lord; and have comforted myself. 53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law. 54 Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage. 55 I have remembered thy name, O Lord, in the night, and have kept thy law. 56 This I had, because I kept thy precepts. 57 Thou art my portion, O Lord: I have said that I would keep thy words. 58 I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word. 59 I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto thy testimonies. 60 I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments. 61 The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law. 62 At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments. 63 I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts. 64 The earth, O Lord, is full of thy mercy: teach me thy statutes. 65 Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O Lord, according unto thy word. 66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments. 67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word. 68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes. 69 The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart. 70 Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law. 71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes. 72 The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver. 73 Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments. 74 They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word. 75 I know, O Lord, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me. 76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant. 77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight. 78 Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts 79 Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies. 80 Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed. 81 My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word. 82 Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me? 83 For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; yet do I not forget thy statutes. 84 How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me? 85 The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law. 86 All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me. 87 They had almost consumed me upon earth; but I forsook not thy precepts. 88 Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth. 89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven. 90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth. 91 They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants. 92 Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction. 93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me. 94 I am thine, save me: for I have sought thy precepts. 95 The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: but I will consider thy testimonies. 96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad. 97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. 98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. 99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. 100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. 101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word. 102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me. 103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 106 I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments. 107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O Lord, according unto thy word. 108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O Lord, and teach me thy judgments. 109 My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law. 110 The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts. 111 Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart. 112 I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end. 113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. 114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word. 115 Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God. 116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope. 117 Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually. 118 Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood. 119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies. 120 My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments. 121 I have done judgment and justice: leave me not to mine oppressors. 122 Be surety for thy servant for good: let not the proud oppress me. 123 Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness. 124 Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes. 125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies. 126 It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law. 127 Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. 128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way. 129 Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them. 130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. 131 I opened my mouth, and panted: for I longed for thy commandments. 132 Look thou upon me, and be merciful unto me, as thou usest to do unto those that love thy name. 133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me. 134 Deliver me from the oppression of man: so will I keep thy precepts. 135 Make thy face to shine upon thy servant; and teach me thy statutes. 136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law. 137 Righteous art thou, O Lord, and upright are thy judgments. 138 Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful. 139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words. 140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it. 141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts. 142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. 143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights. 144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live. 145 I cried with my whole heart; hear me, O Lord: I will keep thy statutes. 146 I cried unto thee; save me, and I shall keep thy testimonies. 147 I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word. 148 Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word. 149 Hear my voice according unto thy lovingkindness: O Lord, quicken me according to thy judgment. 150 They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy law. 151 Thou art near, O Lord; and all thy commandments are truth. 152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever. 153 Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law. 154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word. 155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes. 156 Great are thy tender mercies, O Lord: quicken me according to thy judgments. 157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies. 158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word. 159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O Lord, according to thy lovingkindness. 160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. 161 Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word. 162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil. 163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love. 164 Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments. 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. 166 Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments. 167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly. 168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee. 169 Let my cry come near before thee, O Lord: give me understanding according to thy word. 170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word. 171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes. 172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. 173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts. 174 I have longed for thy salvation, O Lord; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

[4WD]

God did not inspire the above words to be written in His holy scriptures, and then leave countless millions of humanity in the ignorant condition you suggest. Rather, this is a simple case of the rejection of one simple conclusively stated scripture, leading to the rejection of another. So be it.

I rather suspect that there are countless millions more good solid Christians who believe as I do than believe as you do in this matter.  So your point is well taken, but not in your favor.

[Amo]

I rather suspect that there are countless millions more good solid Christians who believe as I do than believe as you do in this matter.  So your point is well taken, but not in your favor.

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The numbers game is a very dangerous one. Those who would lean upon it, will likely perish. Again, we see things so very differently. You think having a lot of people agree with your point of view is in your favor, I think agreeing with God's word is in one's favor. The latter far above the former.

[4WD]

I think agreeing with God's word is in one's favor.

I would certainly agree with that.  And I think it is me, not you, that agrees with God's word in the Genesis account of creation.  I think it is me, not you, that agrees with God's meaning of the Hebrew word "yom".

Moreover, if you think Matthew 7:13 is speaking of the distinction between those who hold to your view of the Genesis account of creation and those who hold to my view of the Genesis account of creation, then you are to be most pitied, because you have no idea what that verse is about.

[Rella]

What I want to know is why YE believers believe that when Moses or whoever wrote Genesis under the inspiration/direction of God that the recounting of when Adam was made and mankind... as we know him... has to be the beginning?

There is no accounting for anything other then what was commonly call the creation story in the Judeo/Christian bible.... and I suspect the Koran and likely other written accounts since God placed Man... with a soul... on earth.

Why do these YE people not think that this handbook of rules and regulations ( and those of other faiths) were inspired because
God determined that man with a soul should be given their history and directives and rules and regulations?

Just because there is no mention of ture specifics before those 6 creation day periods does not mean they never exisited.

The first verses of Genesis are vague at best. Could God have not thought that more specifics would just confuse man with a soul?

We know of the other planets and the sun and the moon... and we are learning how they work in a miniscule amout of knowledge...

Do you YE people actually not ever look at what the people from Nasa etc send back to earth?

Why dont you... cause God did not give us details in the bible?

The Holy Bible was written for us.  For God's purpose and instruction. And what God felt was imporatnt history of man with a soul.

You cannot ignor the potential , possibilities, and yes, probabilities that God was at work on earth and within the solar system
before He made man with a soul.

It's kind of like you walking over to you dad and saying..."Daddy. What were you doing n your life before you made me with momma?"

Frankly... It is unimportant and totally irrelevant to our relationship with Him.

We have a purpose. We were created for a purpose.

So you need to get over your limited mindsets

I , for one, am in awe of all that he has done and while I totally disagree with the science end of things... I sure do see that possibilities of things that do turn up here on our own earth that had to have been before Adam was created simply because
they are there and no mention of such in any historical records.

[Amo]

I would certainly agree with that.  And I think it is me, not you, that agrees with God's word in the Genesis account of creation.  I think it is me, not you, that agrees with God's meaning of the Hebrew word "yom".

Moreover, if you think Matthew 7:13 is speaking of the distinction between those who hold to your view of the Genesis account of creation and those who hold to my view of the Genesis account of creation, then you are to be most pitied, because you have no idea what that verse is about.

Matthew 7:13 is in relation to the law and the prophets. The entirety of scripture, not just the creation account.

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Ask me, and I will show you the testimony of scripture concerning the creation account throughout the law and the prophets of the same, to the effect that it is a historical account, not allegorical or symbolic. Now I will ask you to show me by scripture through the law and the prophets, that scripture actually reveals or testifies of deep time evolution theories which you believe. Where is this testimony? Where is it found in scripture at all? Understand this brother, that you and I and all will be judged by our acceptance or rejection of the testimony of the word of God. If what we have believed and taught is found nowhere in it, we will be condemned by it for believing and teaching deception. Proving ourselves to be children of the father of lies, rather than He who is The Truth, The Life, and The Way.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46  For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Those who reject the testimony of Moses, cannot either accept the testimony of Jesus, for Jesus was that spiritual meat, drink, Rock, and God who lead Moses and Israel through the wilderness. He was and is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Israel, and Moses who descended upon the mountain and spoke His law to the nation. He was and is the Angel of the burning bush who is God, who called Moses to lead His children to the promised land of old. When you reject the testimony of the Creation and flood given by Moses as Peter testified the deceived would and even did in his day, your reject who God is, as revealed through His Son and our Savior Jesus Christ.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[Amo]

What I want to know is why YE believers believe that when Moses or whoever wrote Genesis under the inspiration/direction of God that the recounting of when Adam was made and mankind... as we know him... has to be the beginning?

There is no accounting for anything other then what was commonly call the creation story in the Judeo/Christian bible.... and I suspect the Koran and likely other written accounts since God placed Man... with a soul... on earth.

Why do these YE people not think that this handbook of rules and regulations ( and those of other faiths) were inspired because
God determined that man with a soul should be given their history and directives and rules and regulations?

Just because there is no mention of ture specifics before those 6 creation day periods does not mean they never exisited.

The first verses of Genesis are vague at best. Could God have not thought that more specifics would just confuse man with a soul?

We know of the other planets and the sun and the moon... and we are learning how they work in a miniscule amout of knowledge...

Do you YE people actually not ever look at what the people from Nasa etc send back to earth?

Why dont you... cause God did not give us details in the bible?

The Holy Bible was written for us.  For God's purpose and instruction. And what God felt was imporatnt history of man with a soul.

You cannot ignor the potential , possibilities, and yes, probabilities that God was at work on earth and within the solar system
before He made man with a soul.

It's kind of like you walking over to you dad and saying..."Daddy. What were you doing n your life before you made me with momma?"

Frankly... It is unimportant and totally irrelevant to our relationship with Him.

We have a purpose. We were created for a purpose.

So you need to get over your limited mindsets

I , for one, am in awe of all that he has done and while I totally disagree with the science end of things... I sure do see that possibilities of things that do turn up here on our own earth that had to have been before Adam was created simply because
they are there and no mention of such in any historical records.

If you think the holy scriptures are just a book of rules and regulations, then you are most certainly the one with a very limited mindset. Verbalizing or writing such itself, demonstrates ignorance of God's word itself.

No Creationist thinks there was nothing before the creation of this world, this is not what the scriptures teach at all. To the contrary, there were other beings and worlds involved in a conflict already, which spread to this world through the father of lies not long after its creation. Just as scripture testifies. It seems your understanding is what is limited regarding what Creationists believe, as well as what the scriptures actually testify. The bible addresses our beginning, history, and prophetic vision to the end of this fallen world. As well as some details concerning what was before us, and will be after. None of which entitles anyone, to reject, ignore, or attempt to alter any of the plain testimony of God's word, without being in danger of losing their soul for doing so. God's word will not and cannot be conformed to our views and perceptions, our views and perceptions must conform to it, or we will perish along with falsehoods and deceptions we have chosen apart from God's word which endures forever.

1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

We are dust, here today gone tomorrow. The WORD OF GOD endures forever. If we submit and conform to His word, then we shall endure forever. If we attempt to conform His word to our own understanding, we will perish along with all such thoughts. Just as the evil one who is the Father of lies.

Psa 19:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Why will one accept the above testimony, and yet reject the below testimony by the same author, which declares the creation account and fourth commandment to be historical narrative of how God brought our world about?

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

[Rella]

If you think the holy scriptures are just a book of rules and regulations, then you are most certainly the one with a very limited mindset. Verbalizing or writing such itself, demonstrates ignorance of God's word itself.

If you do not realize the reason for the handbook we have been given 

No Creationist thinks there was nothing before the creation of this world, this is not what the scriptures teach at all.

I said absolutely nothing using the word creationist. A Young Earth believer is one who believes that this ball we walk on is between 6,000 and 13,000 yeras old depending on who they follow. And there is one person on here that you have debated often that believes exactly that.

To the contrary, there were other beings and worlds involved in a conflict already, which spread to this world through the father of lies not long after its creation. Just as scripture testifies.

I want you to point this out in scripture. For that is nothing I am familiar with.


It seems your understanding is what is limited regarding what Creationists believe, as well as what the scriptures actually testify.

Again... creationists are not necessarily young earth believers.

The bible addresses our beginning, history, and prophetic vision to the end of this fallen world.

Agreed, as well as telling us how we are to live and rules to live by.

As well as some details concerning what was before us,

Prove it.

and will be after. None of which entitles anyone, to reject, ignore, or attempt to alter any of the plain testimony of God's word, without being in danger of losing their soul for doing so. God's word will not and cannot be conformed to our views and perceptions, our views and perceptions must conform to it, or we will perish along with falsehoods and deceptions we have chosen apart from God's word which endures forever.

Ill add you to the list of those who have condemned me ... #13 

But hear this loud and hear this clear.

I said "What I want to know is why YE believers believe that when Moses or whoever wrote Genesis under the inspiration/direction of God that the recounting of when Adam was made and mankind... as we know him... has to be the beginning?"

And you understood that to mean "No Creationist thinks there was nothing before the creation of this world, this is not what the scriptures teach at all."

I know there was creation before Adam. I dont know why the YEers believe there was not any before the 5 ( 24 hour)  days prior to man.[/color]

[4WD]

If what we have believed and taught is found nowhere in it, we will be condemned by it for believing and teaching deception. Proving ourselves to be children of the father of lies, rather than He who is The Truth, The Life, and The Way.

Amo, that is a seriously irrelevant and misguided statement from anyone studying the Scriptures.  The entire field of modern physics lies outside of Scripture and is found nowhere in it.  The entire field of modern medicine lies outside of Scripture and is found nowhere in it .  The entire field of Chemistry lies outside of Scripture and is found nowhere in it.  The entire field of Mathematics likes outside of Scripture and is found nowhere in it.  The entire field of modern astronomy lies outside of Scripture and is found nowhere in it. The entire field of modern cosmology lies outside of the Scripture and is found nowhere in it.

You can reject all of that if you like, but that really doesn't say much about your basic intelligence and your basic understanding of God's word either.

The cosmology inferred by the Scriptures is, quite simply, the cosmology of the ancient Hebrew people, no more and no less.  But the amazing thing is, that as presented in the Scriptures and if properly interpreted, it violates none of the modern technologies at all.

[Jaime]

Jaime, you are looking at God's dealings with Israel as a nation and, inappropriately, trying to correlate that with God's dealings with individuals.  Other than that I don't know what your point is.

My point is unambiguous and exactly what I stated, I am not considering that they  were the nation of Israel. When God gives a commandment for any people to keep, is it keepable? nothing more and nothing less. Deut 31 indicates that God thought they certainly could keep his commandments. Perfectly? I doubt it. Could they possibly have chosen blessing over curse? I say obviously so, even if they were Turkish rather than Israelites. God put before them a choice. I don't believe he posed an impossible choice. Nothing about it in scripture indicated it was impossible to obey. THAT is my point.

[Rella]

Amo, that is a seriously irrelevant and misguided statement from anyone studying the Scriptures.  The entire field of modern physics lies outside of Scripture and is found nowhere in it.  The entire field of modern medicine lies outside of Scripture and is found nowhere in it .  The entire field of Chemistry lies outside of Scripture and is found nowhere in it.  The entire field of Mathematics likes outside of Scripture and is found nowhere in it.  The entire field of modern astronomy lies outside of Scripture and is found nowhere in it. The entire field of modern cosmology lies outside of the Scripture and is found nowhere in it.

You can reject all of that if you like, but that really doesn't say much about your basic intelligence and your basic understanding of God's word either.

The cosmology inferred by the Scriptures is, quite simply, the cosmology of the ancient Hebrew people, no more and no less.  But the amazing thing is, that as presented in the Scriptures and if properly interpreted, it violates none of the modern technologies at all.

The statement of his....

To the contrary, there were other beings and worlds involved in a conflict already, which spread to this world through the father of lies not long after its creation.

Is no where to be found in my Holy Bible..

That is an alarming thing to say and likely can be found in Ellen Whites writings.....

At least other worlds she visited with perfect people are mentioned here

https://blog.lifeassuranceministries.org/2017/03/29/adventism-and-ellen-whites-unfallen-worlds/

Interesting perspective of hers...

https://www.ellenwhite.info/universal-war-2.htm

And @Amo... you accused me....

None of which entitles anyone, to reject, ignore, or attempt to alter any of the plain testimony of God's word, without being in danger of losing their soul for doing so. God's word will not and cannot be conformed to our views and perceptions, our views and perceptions must conform to it, or we will perish along with falsehoods and deceptions we have chosen apart from God's word which endures forever.

While your very own Ellen White

Ellen White's Bible Omissions

https://www.nonegw.org/egw91.shtml

Be careful of your accusations.... though I shall leave you as #13 for your beliefs of me.[/size]

[Texas Conservative]

My point is unambiguous and exactly what I stated, I am not considering that they  were the nation of Israel. When God gives a commandment for any people to keep, is it keepable? nothing more and nothing less. Deut 31 indicates that God thought they certainly could keep his commandments. Perfectly? I doubt it. Could they possibly have chosen blessing over curse? I say obviously so, even if they were Turkish rather than Israelites. God put before them a choice. I don't believe he posed an impossible choice. Nothing about it in scripture indicated it was impossible to obey. THAT is my point.

It's impossible to obey, and God demands perfection. 

Joshua asked Israel if they would serve other gods or God in Joshua 24.  The people replied said they would serve God.  Joshua said they would not, and within the next generation, they did not.

The history of Israel and then Judah and Israel is filled with the same story over and over again.  And they were punished just like Joshua said.

[Texas Conservative]

My point is unambiguous and exactly what I stated, I am not considering that they  were the nation of Israel. When God gives a commandment for any people to keep, is it keepable? nothing more and nothing less. Deut 31 indicates that God thought they certainly could keep his commandments. Perfectly? I doubt it. Could they possibly have chosen blessing over curse? I say obviously so, even if they were Turkish rather than Israelites. God put before them a choice. I don't believe he posed an impossible choice. Nothing about it in scripture indicated it was impossible to obey. THAT is my point.

Deut 31 indicates that God knew they certainly would not keep His commandments.

16 And the Lord said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?' 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

19 "Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them. 20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their ancestors, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant. 21 And when many disasters and calamities come on them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath."

[4WD]

My point is unambiguous and exactly what I stated, I am not considering that they  were the nation of Israel. When God gives a commandment for any people to keep, is it keepable? nothing more and nothing less. Deut 31 indicates that God thought they certainly could keep his commandments. Perfectly? I doubt it. Could they possibly have chosen blessing over curse? I say obviously so, even if they were Turkish rather than Israelites. God put before them a choice. I don't believe he posed an impossible choice. Nothing about it in scripture indicated it was impossible to obey. THAT is my point.

I am still at a bit of a loss trying to understand what you are saying.  There is a difference between could and would.  I do not believe that God has issued even one commandment that could not be kept.  Jesus was the example of that.  The fact that no one other than Jesus has done so perfectly is not a statement of impossibility.  If that is the point you are making, then I agree.

[Jaime]

Condensed down, Israel or any other nation could have obeyed God's commands to choose blessing or curse. It didn't require perfect obedience.

[Jaime]

TC, God gave them a choice. With his foreknowledge they would not obey he knew at the foundation of the world they WOULD NOT obey.  He didn't present them with an impossible task. He just knew they would fail NOT that they COULDN'T Obey.

[Texas Conservative]

TC, God gave them a choice. With his foreknowledge they would not obey he knew at the foundation of the world they WOULD NOT obey.  He didn't present them with an impossible task. He just knew they would fail NOT that they COULDN'T Obey.

They couldn't obey perfectly.  We know that James wrote to the Jewish Christians in James 2 that breaking one part of the law, you break all of it.

The law in Romans 3 is used to show us our sin.

[4WD]

They couldn't obey perfectly. 

We know they didn't; but why couldn't they?  What prevented them from obeying perfectly?

[Jaime]

I was under the impression they didn't even obey IMperfectly. Obey just means obey. And God would bless them. They didn't obey perfectly or imperfectly. I don't see anything but obedience required. God did not expect perfection out of them just obedience. Nothing in the big 10 about perfect obedience. Don't murder, don't steal, etc. God knew they were "capable" of obedience or he gave them an impossible option. With no possibility of blessing them in their obedience.