Creation scientists

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

So it is your position that when it says that " And God said, Let there be light: and there was light", that really means that God created light. It doesn't say that, but you don't care.  You need it to mean that God created light even it that is not what it says.

Uh.... it does say that.  Well, you have the tense wrong.

It says that God is creating light.  Like, it's still ongoing, not a completed event.

Jarrod

[4WD]

Uh.... it does say that.  Well, you have the tense wrong.

It says that God is creating light.  Like, it's still ongoing, not a completed event.

Jarrod

No, it does not say that. You are free to interpret it any way you wish; but it does not say that. The phrase, "Let there be ....." occurs several times in the creation account.  It always presents the happening of something that obviously does so by the unique power and authority of creator God.  But it is not creation per se.  It is not a euphemism for creation. The Hebrew word, "bara", when used in connection with God nearly always, if not always, signifies creation ex nihilo.  That is certainly the case here in the first few chapters of Genesis.  I consider thinking otherwise trivializes God's work of creation.

[Rella]

No, it does not say that. You are free to interpret it any way you wish; but it does not say that. The phrase, "Let there be ....." occurs several times in the creation account.  It always presents the happening of something that obviously does so by the unique power and authority of creator God.  But it is not creation per se.  It is not a euphemism for creation. The Hebrew word, "bara", when used in connection with God nearly always, if not always, signifies creation ex nihilo.  That is certainly the case here in the first few chapters of Genesis.  I consider thinking otherwise trivializes God's work of creation.

+1

[DaveW]

Uh.... it does say that.  Well, you have the tense wrong.

It says that God is creating light.  Like, it's still ongoing, not a completed event.

I will let you guys argue out the difference between Hayah and Y'hee.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

No, it does not say that. You are free to interpret it any way you wish; but it does not say that

Yeah, yeah it does.

The phrase, "Let there be ....." occurs several times in the creation account.  It always presents the happening of something that obviously does so by the unique power and authority of creator God.

"Let there be" is a poor bit of translation.  That word means "exist." 

God is saying, "Light, exist!" and the light exists.

That is creation.

But it is not creation per se.  It is not a euphemism for creation. The Hebrew word, "bara", when used in connection with God nearly always, if not always, signifies creation ex nihilo.  That is certainly the case here in the first few chapters of Genesis.  I consider thinking otherwise trivializes God's work of creation.

That is not the word used in this verse.  It's up in verse 1, but not here.

Jarrod

[4WD]

Yeah, yeah it does.
"Let there be" is a poor bit of translation.  That word means "exist." 

God is saying, "Light, exist!" and the light exists.

That is creation.

No, no it does not. 

From Strong's:

H1961

הָיָה

hâyâh

haw-yaw'

A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
Total KJV occurrences: 3502

There is nothing in that definition that signifies creation; and certainly nothing that would signify creation ex nihilo.

As I have noted previously at least a couple of times. There are three instances where the creation account speaks of God creating.  They are (1) the heaven and the earth in verse one; (2) life in the seas and the air in verse 21; and (3) and the human being in verse 21.

And even with respect to the human being, we see from verses 1:27 and 2:7 the creating did not even include the physical bodies of the human beings.  The creation in God's image was the spirit of the human being.

But you can believe what you want.  Personally, I really do believe that the Young Earth Creationist view of creation seriously underplays the true marvel, wonder and magnificence of God's creation.  That God could create ex nihilo a nearly infinitely dense and nearly infinitely hot speck together with all laws of nature which then caused the development into what we see in this universe today is so much greater than any description by the YECs.  Couple that with the creation ex nihilo of life on earth and then the spirit of man and that is again so much more magnificent that anything described by YEC.

And all of that in complete harmony with the Genesis account of creation.  I have even shown previously how, because of general relativity and the effect on time of an expanding universe, six 24-hour days looking forward from God's point of view at the instant of creation of that infinitely dense, infinitely hot speck can be equated with the approximate 13+ billion years looking back from our point of view from the time He created man.

But perhaps that is just me.

[Amo]

So it is your position that when it says that " And God said, Let there be light: and there was light", that really means that God created light. It doesn't say that, but you don't care.  You need it to mean that God created light even it that is not what it says.

And that of course is exactly the way you read and interpret everything in the Bible. For you it says and means whatever you need it to say and mean.

And you accuse me of lying to myself.  What a joke.
It is quite obvious from past posts by you that you, even in this modern area of scientific knowledge, do not understand what evolution is and you expect that God would have the author of Genesis describe it to the ancient Hebrew?

Again, what a joke.

For what it is worth, I seriously doubt that you have any real understanding of what light even is. So that with respect to what is described as happening on the first versus what happened on the fourth day is no doubt a bit perplexing for you. I have read opinions from some Young Earth Creationists about that and quite frankly it was hilarious.

I know that what I am about to say is really really low, and I apologize beforehand for saying it, nevertheless it fits this above argument so well. Your argument above reminds me so very very much of lefty progressive insanity, dodge ball, thought policing, political correctness, and elitism tactics.

First you tell everyone that what they see right in front of their face, is not what they see. Then you play with words until they work out how you wish. Then you end with insults and the old, I'm just so much smarter than you, that you just simply cannot understand the things which I do. Therefore, you should submit to my superiority. If that isn't straight out of the lefty progressive playbook, I don't know what is.

Just out of curiosity, can you supply any of us with any versions of the bible which the "experts" came up with in their translations, that actually supports or expresses the views you are sharing?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. KJV

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. NKJV

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. NIV

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth was a [a]formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. NASB

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. 3 God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. MEV

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the waters. 3 Then God said, Let there be light: And there was light. GNV

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. CJB

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created [by forming from nothing] the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void or a waste and emptiness, and darkness was upon the face of the deep [primeval ocean that covered the unformed earth]. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. AMP

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. ASV

So, none of the above translators knew enough to express what you have? They just all accidentally translated it as it is, because they simply do not understand the original language or languages as well as you do? Is that it? Poor fellows are kind of like me I guess, when compared to your highness. Is there no one, who cares to reveal what you suggest in their translations? Even after all of this time with so many people believing as you do?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

That word means "exist."  God is saying, "Light, exist!" and the light exists.

That is creation.

From Strong's:

H1961  הָיָה   hâyâh 

haw-yaw'

A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
Total KJV occurrences: 3502

I mean, you disagreed, and then proved me right.  Thanks I guess?

There is nothing in that definition that signifies creation; and certainly nothing that would signify creation ex nihilo.

You're right that it's not ex nihilo. God is forming the existing material that He created up in verse 1.

That is still an act of creation.  That's actually the point of Genesis 1... God took a long long long long long long long long time forming everything to get it to the state that He envisioned for it.

He does the same with people... we aren't poofed into existence fully formed and perfect in knowledge.  The chapter reveals the character of God as a Father who brings all creation along the path to perfection, gradually imposing order on a creation that starts out chaotic and unformed.  It refutes those who would envision God as a magician or genie there to grant wishes or perform "miracles" in circumvention of the rules and system that He Himself created.

But you can believe what you want.  Personally, I really do believe that the Young Earth Creationist view of creation seriously underplays the true marvel, wonder and magnificence of God's creation.  That God could create ex nihilo a nearly infinitely dense and nearly infinitely hot speck together with all laws of nature which then caused the development into what we see in this universe today is so much greater than any description by the YECs.  Couple that with the creation ex nihilo of life on earth and then the spirit of man and that is again so much more magnificent that anything described by YEC.

And all of that in complete harmony with the Genesis account of creation.  I have even shown previously how, because of general relativity and the effect on time of an expanding universe, six 24-hour days looking forward from God's point of view at the instant of creation of that infinitely dense, infinitely hot speck can be equated with the approximate 13+ billion years looking back from our point of view from the time He created man.

But perhaps that is just me.

Young Earth Creationism is dumb.  I appreciate your attempts to oppose that stupidity.  But I found your logic wrong-headed, so I said something.

But please, carry on.  I've not got the patience to argue with those who are willfully deaf and blind.

Jarrod

[4WD]

I mean, you disagreed, and then proved me right.  Thanks I guess?
You're right that it's not ex nihilo. God is forming the existing material that He created up in verse 1.

I didn't disagree with its meaning "exist"; I disagreed that constituted creation in the sense of God creating ex nihilo.  When you equate God's making or causing to exist with God's creating, then I believe that you trivialize God's creating.

But again, perhaps that is just me.

[Amo]

Psa 33:1 Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright. 2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. 3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise. 4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. 5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Yea, anyone who believes the above testimony highlighted, is obviously dumb. David, what an ignorant man, trying to pass such silliness off on everyone. What does he know? So many people know so much better now. Of course he doesn't actually address any exact time frames. Other silly people and scriptures do that, which we should of course not believe. Like God could actually create so many things in single days, ridiculous.

...............................
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day..........................
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day....................
12  And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day..........................
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.........................
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day...........................
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day..........................
Gen 2:1  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Check out Moses, trying to pull a fast one on us. As though we would believe God could do such things in seven days. Didn't he know we could look around us and figure out such cannot be true.

Exo 20:1  And God spake all these words, saying,...........................
Exo 20:8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Sheesh. Now God is backing up His buddy Moses, and trying to pass this stuff off on us as well. Doesn't He know we can observe what is around us, and figure out these things cannot be so?

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Yes actually He did know that in the last days scoffers would arise, rejecting the testimony of God's prophets. Looking around them and determining that all things continue as they always have, and therefore wrongly extrapolating false sciences in accordance with the same. This exactly because they reject the conclusive testimony of the creation and flood accounts, choosing rather to be willingly ignorant of the same. Therefore are they ever learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. So be it, as each determines and wishes, God will force the truth upon no one.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

[Rella]

  Oh ye of little faith.



Why would God speaking something into existence not be counted as a creation of that something?

I guess many of you picture Him sitting on high with his modeling clay, erector set and Lincoln logs........?

Or is it that since you cannot speak and it is done that you want all, including God,  to manually do whatever is done?

You always remember this.

If God cannot speak into existence then God cannot speak a judgment either  and send anyone to their eternal rewards , wherever they are headed.  He would need something tangible to accomplish this. I just cannot picture him with a hickory switch... (Ya'll old enough to remember those?) or with a ruler smack on the hands (As the Catholic sisters did in school... again if you are old enough) or those big paddles many of us got from yet other teachers. (Yes, I did)

[4WD]

And the evening and the morning..........................

Amo,
You highlighted this phrase that occurs at each declaration of the six days. You are adamant concerning the literal meaning of the word day being only a literal 24-hour period of time.  Please give us your literal interpretation of the words evening and morning that you have highlighted. And please remember that the sun and the moon do not appear until the fourth day. The purpose there stated to be to "to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness." So then if there is no separation of the light from the darkness until the fourth day, what then are the evening and the morning of days one, two and three?

Just curious.

[Amo]

  Oh ye of little faith.



Why would God speaking something into existence not be counted as a creation of that something?

I guess many of you picture Him sitting on high with his modeling clay, erector set and Lincoln logs........?

Or is it that since you cannot speak and it is done that you want all, including God,  to manually do whatever is done?

You always remember this.

If God cannot speak into existence then God cannot speak a judgment either  and send anyone to their eternal rewards , wherever they are headed.  He would need something tangible to accomplish this. I just cannot picture him with a hickory switch... (Ya'll old enough to remember those?) or with a ruler smack on the hands (As the Catholic sisters did in school... again if you are old enough) or those big paddles many of us got from yet other teachers. (Yes, I did)

I remember my first paddling very well. I learned an important lesson. The guy who got paddled with me got it first. He started to scream and cry before he ever even got paddled. So he got swatted just a couple of times. I thought he was kind of wimpy for that, what a baby I thought. I wasn't going to crack scream and cry that easy, I'm tougher than that. So I didn't. Which is when I found out what experiential knowledge really is. The guy before had apparently already been through this experience. If you hold out, you just get paddled more and harder until you do scream and cry. My impression of him changed from being a wimp, to being highly intelligent. A lesson painfully learned.

[Amo]

Amo,
You highlighted this phrase that occurs at each declaration of the six days. You are adamant concerning the literal meaning of the word day being only a literal 24-hour period of time.  Please give us your literal interpretation of the words evening and morning that you have highlighted. And please remember that the sun and the moon do not appear until the fourth day. The purpose there stated to be to "to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness." So then if there is no separation of the light from the darkness until the fourth day, what then are the evening and the morning of days one, two and three?

Just curious.

You will have to ask Moses about that one, when you meet him. After that, you can ask God why He backed that testimony up when He audibly told the entire nation of Israel, the fourth commandment.

[4WD]

You will have to ask Moses about that one, when you meet him.

Nah, I don't need to wait until then. I am pretty sure I know what God means there and it is not about a literal evening and morning as we see it each day now with the sun rise and sun set.

[4WD]

Why would God speaking something into existence not be counted as a creation of that something?

As a part of His creation of this universe God created the biological nature of things such that each reproduces according to their own kind. As a part of that, the human being, just like the rest of the animal world, is biologically conditioned to reproduce.  I believe it can honestly be said that God spoke that biological system into existence. He created the biological system by which you and I were made.  It does not mean that God literally created each of us.

That is why God says in Genesis 2:1-3 that He finished His work of creation and rested on the seventh day.  It is still the seventh day; God is still resting from His work of creation. That remains so until He creates a new heaven and a new earth (Isa 65:17; Rev 21:1).

[Amo]

As a part of His creation of this universe God created the biological nature of things such that each reproduces according to their own kind. As a part of that, the human being, just like the rest of the animal world, is biologically conditioned to reproduce.  I believe it can honestly be said that God spoke that biological system into existence. He created the biological system by which you and I were made.  It does not mean that God literally created each of us.

That is why God says in Genesis 2:1-3 that He finished His work of creation and rested on the seventh day.  It is still the seventh day; God is still resting from His work of creation. That remains so until He creates a new heaven and a new earth (Isa 65:17; Rev 21:1).

You just basically said what creationists say, that God created all the original life with the ability to reproduce. You just demand that this creation was deep time evolution rather than what ever took place in a day, as scripture testifies multiple times. This doesn't really work out very well though, since evolution itself would require countless reproductions among living things before arriving at the point scripture addresses in the fully formed, functional, and interdependent plants, creatures, niches, ecosystems, biospheres, and what have you. It would be highly redundant therefore, for God tell creatures at a certain point in time of development according to your theory to be fruitful and multiply. When they had already been doing so for deep time ages and ages as an absolute necessity. No, God has no need of deep time slow developments, or made up stories to represent that which would be so very simple for Him to explain. Your theory has nothing to do with the realities set forth in scripture, all of which God is very capable of performing. You just do not want it to be so.

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

We see from scripture, that God created plant life with the seed within itself to reproduce and multiply. After which He immediately established day and night, as both are necessary to the proper function most plant life. Which itself helps properly sustain the atmosphere of this planet for the life within it, and also was and still is the food necessary unto all of the same. Then when He created creatures of all kinds, and humanity, He also said be fruitful and multiply. Which of course would be a moot point, if through the processes of deep time evolution, everything had already been doing so countless times over and again. This unto greater progress and complexity of individual creatures, their interactions and interdependence, their environments, niches, ecosystems, biospheres, and what have you. As is always the case, trying to squeeze evolution into the biblical creation account, just doesn't work out well.

[4WD]

We see from scripture, that God created plant life with the seed within itself to reproduce and multiply. After which He immediately established day and night, as both are necessary to the proper function most plant life.

Your view of that is all rather interesting since even a couple of seconds without the heat of the sun, all plants would immediately freeze and die in the nearly absolute zero temperature.

[Rella]

As a part of His creation of this universe God created the biological nature of things such that each reproduces according to their own kind. As a part of that, the human being, just like the rest of the animal world, is biologically conditioned to reproduce. I believe it can honestly be said that God spoke that biological system into existence. He created the biological system by which you and I were made. It does not mean that God literally created each of us.

That is why God says in Genesis 2:1-3 that He finished His work of creation and rested on the seventh day.  It is still the seventh day; God is still resting from His work of creation. That remains so until He creates a new heaven and a new earth (Isa 65:17; Rev 21:1).

Agreed.

But there are those , even here, that do not believe a spoken word is creation.

That was what I was meaning.

[Rella]

It would be highly redundant therefore, for God tell creatures at a certain point in time of development according to your theory to be fruitful and multiply. When they had already been doing so for deep time ages and ages as an absolute necessity.

Devils advocate here with a little out of the box thinking.

It makes perfect sense if one will consider that original mankind... as spoken up of in Gen 1:26-28

26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

were the ones (plural) that God created and  was not at the same time as the man in Gen 2: 7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.   and 15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

He told them ( plural) to be fruitful and multiply. He physically made ( my belief) one man from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.  THIS single man was made for a purpose. Therefore his creation was different then the others.

Therefore.... no redundancy at all. [/size]

[Amo]

Your view of that is all rather interesting since even a couple of seconds without the heat of the sun, all plants would immediately freeze and die in the nearly absolute zero temperature.

The issue is of course not specifically addressed in the creation account, but according to that account God brought forth light, even before the sun and moon separating day and night. Scripture also testifies that God is a consuming fire, to the extent that His literal unveiled presents, will destroy this world with intense heat. I do not consider light and heat to be a problem. Considering that even apart from the above, it is certainly not beyond God of course, to provide whatever is necessary to preservation during the creation event.

Exo 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Amo]

Devils advocate here with a little out of the box thinking.

It makes perfect sense if one will consider that original mankind... as spoken up of in Gen 1:26-28

26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

were the ones (plural) that God created and  was not at the same time as the man in Gen 2: 7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.   and 15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

He told them ( plural) to be fruitful and multiply. He physically made ( my belief) one man from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils.  THIS single man was made for a purpose. Therefore his creation was different then the others.

Therefore.... no redundancy at all.

If you are saying that humanity alone was created without the evolutionary process, then of course there would be no problem with reduncy. However, the statement is first applied to plant life basically concerning its method of reproduction, then aquatic life, and then to land life forms and humanity combined as it seems. Apart from this, evolutionists contend that man is the result of deep progressive changes, all of which were dependent on the continued survival and reproductive capabilities of all the stages of creatures before us. Therefore making the statement redundant and out of place. 

[Amo]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/directv-loss-could-cripple-rightwing-164032934.html?utm_source=spotim&utm_medium=spotim_recirculation

Quote below from link above.

Oldest Arthropod Brain Found in Buglike Creature

The oldest brain ever found in an arthropod — a group of invertebrates that includes insects and crustaceans — is surprisingly complex for its 520-million-year age, researchers report today (Oct. 10).

The fossilized brain, found in an extinct arthropod from China, looks very similar to the brains of today's modern insects, said study researcher Nicholas Strausfeld, the director of the Center for Insect Science at the University of Arizona.

"The rest of the animal is incredibly simple, so it's a big surprise to see a brain that is so advanced, as it were, in such a simple animal," Strausfeld told LiveScience.

The discovery suggests that brains evolved a complex organization early on in history, he added.

Same old same old. They keep finding complexity further and further back in time because it was there from the beginning by way of God's special creation and design. The deep time evolution scenario is simply wrong. One faulty observation and conclusion after another based upon the original faulty premise which the evolutionary theory represents.

[4WD]

Considering that even apart from the above, it is certainly not beyond God of course, to provide whatever is necessary to preservation during the creation event.

That is certainly true; however there is neither biblical evidence nor physical evidence for that.  Now apart from that, it is similarly not beyond God to provide for creation in the manner revealed by an analysis of the scientific data concerning the big bang in an appeal to the truth presented in Psalms 19; an analysis that is in accord with the account presented in Genesis.  And that of course is the logical explanation of the light described as coming forth on day one.

[Amo]

That is certainly true; however there is neither biblical evidence nor physical evidence for that.  Now apart from that, it is similarly not beyond God to provide for creation in the manner revealed by an analysis of the scientific data concerning the big bang in an appeal to the truth presented in Psalms 19; an analysis that is in accord with the account presented in Genesis.  And that of course is the logical explanation of the light described as coming forth on day one.

No it is not beyond Him, it is simply against the plain testimony He has chosen to provide. Which fallen humanity has presumed they know better about, but their wisdom is all folly compared Him who inspired the account He has left us.

Isa 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

[4WD]

So you are adamant that God's rest on the seventh day was a rest of 24 hours?  Interesting. Something else interesting?  Your adherence to the absolute literal interpretation means that since evening is the setting of the sun and morning is the rising of the sun, there is a huge discrepancy in God's word since it says the sun, moon and stars were not in place until the fourth day.

[Amo]

So you are adamant that God's rest on the seventh day was a rest of 24 hours?  Interesting. Something else interesting?  Your adherence to the absolute literal interpretation means that since evening is the setting of the sun and morning is the rising of the sun, there is a huge discrepancy in God's word since it says the sun, moon and stars were not in place until the fourth day.

Yea, we already went over the sun moon and stars thing. You can keep accusing me personally of adamant about what the scriptures plainly state for all to see over and again, pretending I am the one rejecting them by doing so, but I am not subject to your reverse psychology. God's word states that it was in fact a one day event several times over. He established the single day seventh day Sabbath observance in commemoration of finishing the other single days of creation outlined in the creation account. Then He saw to it that His people observed that same single seventh day Sabbath as a sign of those six single days in which he created heaven and earth forever. Even punishing them several times for ignoring the commandment regarding it. It seems God is the one who is adamant about the fact they they were truly single days as His Sabbath is also. Your problem therefore, is with His adamancy, not mine.

[4WD]

Yea, we already went over the sun moon and stars thing.

Okay, I am beginning to understand you. According to your interpretation of the creation account in Genesis God contradicts Himself concerning evening, morning, sun rising and setting. And that contradiction is acceptable to you. Curiouser and curiouser.

[Amo]

Okay, I am beginning to understand you. According to your interpretation of the creation account in Genesis God contradicts Himself concerning evening, morning, sun rising and setting. And that contradiction is acceptable to you. Curiouser and curiouser.

You understand what you wish, the way you wish, as I suppose we all do. Understand this, for me God's word trumps yours or anyone else's. On occasion when certain things do not seem to make sense, I don't therefore trash the testimony of God's word, and just make up my own. I seek the best explanation which allows for God's testimony to be true, as it always is. I don't just make up or choose theories which contradict the plain simple testimony of scripture.

[4WD]

You have trashed God's testimony concerning the evening and morning of each day of His creation.

[Amo]

You have trashed God's testimony concerning the evening and morning of each day of His creation.

.....................................
Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day........................................
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day............................
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day..............................
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day...................................
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day...................................
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Exo 20:8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I say the testimony above is true, just as it states. You say it is not. Then turn around and say I am the one trashing scriptural testimony. Pretty twisted 4W. So be it.

[4WD]

I didn't say it wasn't true.  In fact, I believe sincerely that it is true.  It is just that the truth is not found in interpreting "evening and morning" as the sun setting and rising. Because that doesn't make sense in the context of the rest of the account.

[DaveW]

I didn't say it wasn't true.  In fact, I believe sincerely that it is true.  It is just that the truth is not found in interpreting "evening and morning" as the sun setting and rising. Because that doesn't make sense in the context of the rest of the account.

Except that is peshat -  the plain meaning -  of evening and morning.  It has been understood as such by Jewish authorities going back at least to the time of King David. Our Lord never contradicted it.

[4WD]

Well so much for peshat.  It is curious that God didn't declare "there was evening and morning" the seventh day. Even if it be peshat, that doesn't solve the obvious contradiction with what occurred on day four.  And if day is "day", why bother with "evening and morning"?

[Amo]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10465347/New-study-suggests-genetic-mutations-NOT-random.html

Quoted article below from link above.

Darwin was wrong! New study suggests for the first time that genetic mutations are NOT always random and may evolve to respond to environmental pressures

Darwin's theory that genetic mutations are always random is wrong, suggests a new study which found evidence that mutations can be a response to environmental pressures.

For more than a century, scientists have held to Charles Darwin's theory that all genetic mutations are random and accidental, with the most beneficial traits being passed on through the generations of breeding.

Researchers from the University of Haifa in Israel say that isn't the case, finding that the generation of the human hemoglobin S (HbS) mutation is not random.


People with this mutation have an extra level of protection from malaria, and the team found those in Africa are much more likely to have it than those in Europe.

Study authors say the mutation is not random, as it exists preferentially in Africa, where the protection is more needed, 'something Darwinism can't explain'.

'We hypothesize that evolution is influenced by two sources of information: external information that is natural selection, and internal information that is accumulated in the genome through the generations and impacts the origination of mutations,' explained Professor Adi Livnat, study lead author.

This new study, including experts from Ghana, is thought to be the first evidence of 'nonrandom mutations' in human genes.

The findings challenge a core assumption at the heart of Darwin's theory of evolution, showing that a long-term directional mutation response to environmental pressures is possible, and that mutations are not just random phenomena.

'For over a century, the leading theory of evolution has been based on random mutations,' said Professor Livnat.

'The results show that the HbS mutation is not generated at random but instead originates preferentially in the gene and in the population where it is of adaptive significance.'

He suggests that evolution is in fact influenced by two sources of information.

These are external information that is natural selection, and internal information that is accumulated int he genome through the generations.

This second type develops through the generations, and impacts the origination of mutations, according to the researchers.

Darwin told us that life arose by evolution, but exactly how the evolution - at the most granular level - actually works, has been open to discussion and debate.

It has long been assumed it was based on a series of accidental changes to the genome, that through natural selection, saw the strongest mutations survive.

For example, under traditional theories, accidents that lead to larger brains are likely to be passed on, but accidents that cause earlier death, are not.

For example, these accidental mutations led to the hawk developing a sharp eye, to help in the search of prey, and the human cardiovascular system or walking upright.

The big problem with this theory was in the area of 'complexity', according to Professor Livnat, raising questions over whether the accumulation of small, random changes, can create the level of complexity we see in the world around us today.

While each random change might be beneficial, within the millennia timespan, can they interweave complex parts, such as brains, eyes or even wings?

To distinguish between random mutation and natural selection, and adding in the possibility of nonrandom mutations, Professor Livnat created a new method.

This allowed them to detect de novo mutations, which arrive 'out of the blue' in offspring without being inherited from either parent.

The method let them count de novo mutations for particular points of interest within the genome - something not previously possible in such fine detail.

Previous studies have only tested for an immediate mutational response to environmental pressures, and has been limited to measuring mutation rates as an average across a number of positions within the genome.

'Contrary to the widely accepted expectations, the results supported the nonrandom pattern,' the research team wrote.

The above is of course no news to Creationists, who have never believed for a moment, that random chance could in any way shape or form produce what we see around us in this world. It seems time and again to a Creationist, that perhaps as evolutionist catch up to the obvious by their own observations, they will finally admit of at least intentional design. But no, when your entire theory is based upon faulty premise from the get go, it is oh so hard to leave it all behind. Therefore are they ever fulfilling the biblical prophecy of people ever learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of truth. They keep making new even major altering discoveries concerning their theory, but while they clog to the faulty underlying premise, they cannot come to a knowledge of the truth. So be it.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.