Creation scientists

[Amo]

Yeah, slow moving plates actually do that. They are doing that even now as Barbarian explained.

Yes they do move slow. No, they do not fossilize countless organisms along the way, short of catastrophic event and rapid burial to preserve the same. Time alone will not produce such, apart from catastrophic events facilitating the same.

[4WD]

Yes they do move slow. No, they do not fossilize countless organisms along the way, short of catastrophic event and rapid burial to preserve the same. Time alone will not produce such, apart from catastrophic events facilitating the same.

What in the world are you talking about?  Who said anything about fossilizing countless organisms along the way?

[The Barbarian]

Let us remember, according to evolution the uplifting of the mountains took millions of years; however, many agnostic scientists do acknowledge that the marine fossils got there rapidly.

Is anyone surprised that no evidence for that claim is offered?   

But also remember that the fossils are at every stage of marine life – from days old to full grow whales – all mixed and destroyed together, then embedded into softer rock limestone; as into mud.

It was mud.   Limestone is made of billions of tiny sea organisms, with a few larger organisms sinking into that mud or burrowing in it.  You didn't know that?

It happened very quickly, not in million, or even thousands or even hundreds of years... no; in a matter of days.

I know you want to believe that, but it doesn't work like that.   Those tiny organisms pile up over ages of time, and then their skeletons slowly compact and harden into limestone.   You really didn't know that?

And remember fossilized sea life lies upon every major mountain range on earth

I've been through the Cascades.   No such thing there.  Because the Cascades are not made of continental shelf that was shoved up by plate tectonics.    Again, you've been completely misled.

Slow moving plates and melting glaciers do not do that.

They do that.  In fact, as you learned, we are watching it happen as India continues to push northward into Asia, and more continental shelf is being pushed up higher.  It happens a few centimeters a year.

[Amo]

What in the world are you talking about?  Who said anything about fossilizing countless organisms along the way?

Let us remember, according to evolution the uplifting of the mountains took millions of years; however, many agnostic scientists do acknowledge that the marine fossils got there rapidly.  But also remember that the fossils are at every stage of marine life – from days old to full grow whales – all mixed and destroyed together, then embedded into softer rock limestone; as into mud.  It happened very quickly, not in million, or even thousands or even hundreds of years... no; in a matter of days.  And remember fossilized sea life lies upon every major mountain range on earth – even thousands of feet above sea level.  Slow moving plates and melting glaciers do not do that.  It was a world-wide catastrophic event – a world-wide Flood to be exact.

Fossils are not produced by slow moving plates or melting glaciers.

[4WD]

And remember fossilized sea life lies upon every major mountain range on earth – even thousands of feet above sea level.

They were there before the mountains rose up.  But of course, you have to reject even the idea that the mountains rose up as a result of plate tectonics.

[The Barbarian]

Let us remember, according to evolution the uplifting of the mountains took millions of years; however, many agnostic scientists do acknowledge that the marine fossils got there rapidly. 

No geologist would.   The data say it usually took millions of years.   Your guy is just wrong about that.

And remember fossilized sea life lies upon every major mountain range on earth – even thousands of feet above sea level.

Wrong.   The Cascades don't have that.  Only mountains raised by tectonic plate collisions do that.    That's why the marine fossils are there.   They fossilized on continental shelves and were then pushed up there.   We still see that process continuing in places like the Himalayas.   We can even measure how fast it goes (a few centimeters a year)

Slow moving plates and melting glaciers do not do that.

We're watching it happen today. 

[Amo]

They were there before the mountains rose up.  But of course, you have to reject even the idea that the mountains rose up as a result of plate tectonics.

https://www.icr.org/article/origin-tectonic-plates-best-explained-by-the-flood/

Quoted article below from link above.

Origin of Tectonic Plates Best Explained by the Flood

A new study published in Nature Communications claims to have figured out how the tectonic plates may have originated.1 It's been over 50 years since the theory of plate tectonics became an accepted idea in the scientific community. But, secular scientists are still struggling to explain both the origin of the continental crust and the tectonic plates.2

Earth is unique in our solar system because it is the only planet with tectonic plates. As far as we know, it may be the only planet in the universe to possess these features. This creates another conundrum that secular scientists also cannot explain: why is Earth so unusual?

Chunan Tang, from the State Key Laboratory of Coastal and Offshore Engineering, Dalian University of Technology, China, and a group of multinational geoscientists, admitted:

Fifty years after the foundational works establishing the geometries, kinematics, and mechanics of plate tectonics, we still lack a consensus understanding of how the plate tectonic system initiated.1

Tang and his coauthors created a 3-D spherical model that shows the development of massive rifts in the crust due to thermal expansion. They believe these rifts originated about a billion years after Earth formed through the heating of the lithosphere (the tectonic plate) by the hotter mantle below. In their model, this thermal expansion caused rifting into separate plates.1

Space.com reported study coauthor Alexander Webb as saying that the answer "lies in consideration of major heat-loss mechanisms that could have occurred during Earth's early periods. If volcanic advection, carrying hot material from depth to the surface [similar to a lava lamp], was the major mode of early heat-loss, that changes everything."3 The authors concluded that multi-plate tectonics—and all of the conditions leading up to them—can be sufficiently explained by the warming of the early lithosphere.1

But did they really solve the origin of the tectonic plates? Their model merely showed that cracks could develop under the conditions that they established. It is highly unlikely this was the way Earth's plates originated. If so, why didn't similar-sized planets, like Venus and Mars, develop massive rifts—and eventually plates—as well?

And their model also fails to explain how the subduction process—when one tectonic plate is pulled under another—began and even how plate motion was initiated. Tang and his colleagues wrote:

The initiation of a global network of rifts, as modeled here, is distinct from plate tectonics because plate tectonics includes creation of new lithosphere at rifts and destruction of old lithosphere at subduction zones. Absent an expanding Earth hypothesis, a global rift network is unsustainable: Earth's surface cannot extend without balancing contraction [subduction].1

It all comes down to worldview. Most of the secular community denies the account of the global Flood as described in Genesis. They have had to create a narrative—a fictional story—to try and explain the tectonic plates we observe today.

In contrast, God has told us that the Flood began with the bursting of the fountains of the great deep in Genesis 7:11. It seems most likely that this initiated the plates on Earth. Movement of these newly formed plates destroyed the original ocean crust through subduction and created an entirely new seafloor. This new, hot and lower-density ocean crust pushed the water of the ocean higher and higher until the entire earth was covered with water.4 Today, we merely see the residual effects of this rapid and catastrophic activity.

The Bible is historically accurate. It also gives us insight into the origin of the tectonic plates. No computer model can compete with the truth of God's Word.

[4WD]

Plain old common sense would tell you that is pure garbage.  Seriously, that is so bad it would be a joke to any rational thinking person.

It all comes down to worldview. Most of the secular community denies the account of the global Flood as described in Genesis. They have had to create a narrative—a fictional story—to try and explain the tectonic plates we observe today.

Actually most of the theological community denies the account of a global flood.  There is no greater fictional story than a global flood. 

[Rella]

Plain old common sense would tell you that is pure garbage.  Seriously, that is so bad it would be a joke to any rational thinking person.
Actually most of the theological community denies the account of a global flood.  There is no greater fictional story than a global flood.

[4WD]

Rella,
The movement of the tectonic plates resulted in, among other things, the separation between South America and Africa, a distance of over 5000 miles.  You think that began with the flood of Noah.  That would be about a mile a year.  That is some movement.  As I said, I think common sense would tell you that didn't happen.

[Rella]

Rella,
The movement of the tectonic plates resulted in, among other things, the separation between South America and Africa, a distance of over 5000 miles.  You think that began with the flood of Noah.  That would be about a mile a year.  That is some movement.  As I said, I think common sense would tell you that didn't happen.

My fault for not clarity.

The frown was not regarding the teutonic plate movement or lack therof... but the generalized statement that "There is no greater fictional story than a global flood."

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. I do not need common sense when I know this to be true.

For me... this statement from Jesus goes far beyond what the limited minds of me would tell you was common sense....

With God ALL things are possible.... and there in enters the flood that has been worn to death over debates here.

I personally do not need to know the workings of everything that God has done/does .

For me I do know that to question him... and that means question what the written word says is basically wrong.

But that is just me and I will continue in my flood beliefs until I get to the other side and then can find out the truth

[DaveW]

@4WD -  I was shocked to read this:

There is no greater fictional story than a global flood.

I take it you do NOT believe that God is above and beyond the laws of physics and time?

[DaveW]

The movement of the tectonic plates resulted in, among other things, the separation between South America and Africa, a distance of over 5000 miles.  You think that began with the flood of Noah.  That would be about a mile a year.  That is some movement.  As I said, I think common sense would tell you that didn't happen.

In his book "The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch" Donald Wesley Patton hypothesized a comet or asteroid of massive proportions and made mostly of ice went into earth orbit, breaking the crust which started the plate movement, pulling up mountain ranges from the gravitational forces and finally breaking up and depositing hundreds of cubic miles of ice at the poles which became the glaciers  of the last ice age. 

While I do not know if that is what happened, it is a possibility.  If so, that would result in a MASSIVE movement of the plates in a very short time, pulling apart Africa and South America in a matter of days or months.

[4WD]

The frown was not regarding the teutonic plate movement or lack therof... but the generalized statement that "There is no greater fictional story than a global flood."

Rella, the biblical description of the geometric range of the flood of Noah is the same as the biblical description of the geometric range of the famine in Joseph's time in Egypt and the range of the people coming to Egypt to buy food.

[4WD]

I was shocked to read this: I take it you do NOT believe that God is above and beyond the laws of physics and time?

Not at all, but I also believe in the science that was put into place when God created the universe.  It was not gibberish that God said that "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.". In other words, good science is God's science.  Good science rejects a global flood.

[4WD]

While I do not know if that is what happened, it is a possibility

I seriously doubt that.

If so, that would result in a MASSIVE movement of the plates in a very short time, pulling apart Africa and South America in a matter of days or months.

I think even a rough calculation of the energy that it would have taken to make that happen would have completely destroyed the planet.

We have very good analysis of how and why such tectonic activity is taking place on the earth.  It goes a long way to explain much of what we find has happened geologically in the past and in the present.

[Rella]

Rella, the biblical description of the geometric range of the flood of Noah is the same as the biblical description of the geometric range of the famine in Joseph's time in Egypt and the range of the people coming to Egypt to buy food.

Except there have been accounts of a flood from various people from around the world.

[4WD]

Except there have been accounts of a flood from various people from around the world.

Yes of course, but there is no indication that those are all one and the same flood.

[Alan]

Except there have been accounts of a flood from various people from around the world.

I think we've covered this several times before. There are definitely accounts from cultures around the globe of catastrophic floods, but all of them delve into how their cultures survived via sacrifices to their gods. The tale of Noah was very likely drawn from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a similar point for point event in the same region, but slightly older than Tanakh.

[Amo]

Plain old common sense would tell you that is pure garbage.  Seriously, that is so bad it would be a joke to any rational thinking person.
Actually most of the theological community denies the account of a global flood.  There is no greater fictional story than a global flood.

So, the bible which claims to be the word of God, has the greatest fake story of all time within it? Declares one professing to be a "Christian".

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

You and Peter will have some things to straighten out in the judgment. One of you is a liar.

[Amo]

I think we've covered this several times before. There are definitely accounts from cultures around the globe of catastrophic floods, but all of them delve into how their cultures survived via sacrifices to their gods. The tale of Noah was very likely drawn from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a similar point for point event in the same region, but slightly older than Tanakh.

Another professed "Christian" turning the word of God into just another myth regarding false god's. All such will bend the knee before our Lord and confess their sin.

[Amo]

Let us remember, according to evolution the uplifting of the mountains took millions of years; however, many agnostic scientists do acknowledge that the marine fossils got there rapidly.

Barb's response - Is anyone surprised that no evidence for that claim is offered?   

The following quotes are from links provided above, emphasis is mine. My responses are in blue.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/how-are-fossils-formed.html

Fossilization Processes

Fossilization begins when an organism dies and is quickly covered or buried by sediments. This often occurs near a body of water, such as a river, lake, or ocean. The layers of sediments protect the remains from forces of decay, such as bacteria and weathering. However, sediments do not adequately protect the remains but slow the decomposition process. Over time, the fleshy parts of the organism decompose, leaving hard materials such as shells, bones, and teeth.

After thousands of years, the remains eventually turn into hard solid rocks. Sometimes water percolates through the rock and washes the remains away, but since the rock above is rigid and hard, it does not crumble into the empty space but forms a natural mold of the organism.

https://australian.museum/learn/australia-over-time/fossils/how-do-fossils-form/

How do fossils form?

Fossils are formed in many different ways, but most are formed when a living organism (such as a plant or animal) dies and is quickly buried by sediment (such as mud, sand or volcanic ash). Soft tissues often decompose, leaving only the hard bones or shells behind (but in special circumstances the soft tissues of organisms can be preserved). After the organism has been buried, more sediment, volcanic ash or lava can build up over the top of the buried organism and eventually all the layers harden into rock (they become 'lithified'). It is only when the process of erosion - when the rocks are worn back down and washed away - occurs that these once living organisms are revealed to us from within the stones.

https://nigerianscholars.com/tutorials/history-of-life/fossil-formation/

2. The organism (plant or animal) must be buried beneath mud and or soil shortly after death. Although decay still takes place, the lack of oxygen slows it down. As more and more layers of mud and soil are added, the sediments become compressed.

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/fossil

Fossilization The word fossil comes from the Latin word fossus, meaning "having been dug up." Fossils are often found in rock formations deep in the earth. Fossilization is the process of remains becoming fossils. Fossilization is rare. Most organisms decompose fairly quickly after they die. For an organism to be fossilized, the remains usually need to be covered by sediment soon after death. Sediment can include the sandy seafloor, lava, and even sticky tar. Over time, minerals in the sediment seep into the remains. The remains become fossilized.

https://clarkscience8.weebly.com/fossil-formation.html

Approximately only 1/10 of 1% (0.001) of living things ever become fossilized!
In order for a fossil to form, the organism's remains must not be significantly disturbed by a scavenger/decomposer or destroyed by erosion and other natural forces.  Therefore, organisms or parts of organisms that make up fossils are most likely buried quickly and deeply.
examples: woolly mammoth found in ice, insects found in amber, animals found in peat bogs, mass burials from flash floods or volcanic ash falls.

https://www.americangeosciences.org/education/k5geosource/content/fossils/under-what-conditions-do-fossils-form

For animals without skeletons, like worms or jellyfish, fossilization is a very rare event. When paleontologists find a well-preserved fossil of a soft-bodied animal, it's an occasion for celebration. For a soft-bodied animal to be fossilized, its body must be protected from decomposition. The body is usually exposed to air and water with a lot of oxygen, so it decomposes rapidly.The animal is likely to be fossilized only if it is buried soon after it dies (or when it is buried alive!). Even then, it is likely to decompose, because water that seeps through the sediment around it usually is rich in oxygen. Sometimes, however, the body is buried rapidly by fine mud. Water seeps through mud much more slowly than through sand, so the body does not decompose as fast.

Would you like some more evidence? Just a matter of continuing a search a little longer. Sooner or later, the old adage that fossils are rare, will have to be given up. We just keep finding more and more because they are all over the place. The obvious result of rapid burial by catastrophic extinction level events.

But also remember that the fossils are at every stage of marine life – from days old to full grown whales – all mixed and destroyed together, then embedded into softer rock limestone; as into mud.

Barb's response - It was mud.   Limestone is made of billions of tiny sea organisms, with a few larger organisms sinking into that mud or burrowing in it.  You didn't know that?

Repeating what the article itself basically says, and then acting as if they don't know what they just said, doesn't mean anything accept perhaps in your own warped mind. They believe such is evidence of mass extinction, you choose to believe that such happened over millions of yeas of undisturbed accumulation.

Nevertheless, it us understood by both sides as already evidenced, that rapid burial is far more conducive and likely the cause of fossil formation than eons of undisturbed accumulative layering. In fact the latter is proved to be a very unlikely source of good fossil preservation, allowing too much time for natural decaying processes to disturb fossil formation. You didn't know that?

If you wish I will find and post many quotes regarding the same as well.

It happened very quickly, not in million, or even thousands or even hundreds of years... no; in a matter of days.

Barb's response - I know you want to believe that, but it doesn't work like that.   Those tiny organisms pile up over ages of time, and then their skeletons slowly compact and harden into limestone.   You really didn't know that?

No, I don't know that, and neither do you regardless of how confident you may act about it. We weren't there, we are simply choosing where our real faith lies. Either in God's word which testifies that these conditions were formed rapidly in a global mass extinction event, or in the supposed wisdom of fallen humanity who refuse the same. You simply choose the latter.

Not to worry, both of our confidences will be tested and or proved to be true or false for all to see soon. Which ever one of us was wrong will bend the knee before God almighty in Christ Jesus our Lord and confess their sin. It will be a sad day for everyone, yet it is unavoidable. The truth must and will be established forever, and all lies and liars ended forever. As God's sure word has predicted. You really don't know that? So be it.

And remember fossilized sea life lies upon every major mountain range on earth

Barb's response - I've been through the Cascades.   No such thing there.  Because the Cascades are not made of continental shelf that was shoved up by plate tectonics.    Again, you've been completely misled.

What does the fact that you have been or gone through the cascades, have to do with fossils there or not. Are you saying you have gone fossil hunting all throughout the Cascades and found no Marine fossils? It seems other have. I would say that you have been mislead, but it seems to be more along the lines of your own choosing, not faith in another's testimony.

Quotes below from links provided above them, emphasis is mine.

https://earthathome.org/hoe/w/fossils-csm/

Fossils of the Cascade-Sierra Mountains

Paleozoic fossils

Permian-age rocks in the northern Cascades contain gastropods and corals, along with fusulinid foraminifera shells. Fusulinids are the rice-sized shells of single-celled, amoeba-like organisms that lived in huge numbers on the sea floor during the late Paleozoic.

Mesozoic fossils

Triassic marine fossils

Triassic rocks found in the Cascades and Sierra Nevada contain abundant ammonoids and nautiloids, as well as brachiopods and oysters. These occur, for example, in Shasta County near the border between the Cascade-Sierra Nevada and Pacific Border Regions.

Slow moving plates and melting glaciers do not do that.

Barb's response - They do that.  In fact, as you learned, we are watching it happen as India continues to push northward into Asia, and more continental shelf is being pushed up higher.  It happens a few centimeters a year.

No, slow moving plates and melting glaciers do not form fossils. Which is the point being made which you are pretending to address, not mountain formation. Ignoring details you don't wish to address, and creating your own narrative to address in place of that actually being discussed, does not represent wisdom of any sort. To the contrary, it demonstrates delusional tendencies. Which is of course to be expected from those of the lefty mindset. As they are so prone to creating not just false narratives, but delusional narratives which basic observable facts completely deny. Such as men who are women now just because they say so, or pregnant men, and whatever other lunacies they have and will come up with. Such are the "science" of the left nowadays.

[Amo]

Not at all, but I also believe in the science that was put into place when God created the universe.  It was not gibberish that God said that "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.". In other words, good science is God's science.  Good science rejects a global flood.

In other words, 4WD's and evolutionists science is God's science, and scripture is fairy tale. You are bordering upon blasphemy my friend. Please repent.

[Amo]

Rella,
The movement of the tectonic plates resulted in, among other things, the separation between South America and Africa, a distance of over 5000 miles.  You think that began with the flood of Noah.  That would be about a mile a year.  That is some movement.  As I said, I think common sense would tell you that didn't happen.

Why will you pretend not to know that Creationists believe these movements were extremely rapid during the global flood event? No one is or has suggested the completely false mile a year narrative you posed above.

[4WD]

In other words, 4WD's and evolutionists science is God's science, and scripture is fairy tale. You are bordering upon blasphemy my friend. Please repent.

No, scripture is not fairy tale.  Your interpretation of scripture is fairy tale. You condemn science, but you wouldn't know science if it was plastered to your back side.  In all of these such discussions, your mention of science is a pathetic joke.

[4WD]

Why will you pretend not to know that Creationists believe these movements were extremely rapid during the global flood event? No one is or has suggested the completely false mile a year narrative you posed above.

You not only suggest it, you demand it.  After all, in your view, the universe isn't old enough for the tectonic plate activity to have taken place.  The YEC view is that it all came into place about 6000 years or so ago with all the indications of those movements having already happened.

There is simply no scientific believable explanation for a flood causing tectonic plate movement. And by the way, I have no problem knowing that Young Earth Creationists believe that drivel.  It is what they do.  It is what you do.

[Amo]

No, scripture is not fairy tale.  Your interpretation of scripture is fairy tale. You condemn science, but you wouldn't know science if it was plastered to your back side.  In all of these such discussions, your mention of science is a pathetic joke.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the Apostle Peter are not liars or purveyors of bad science 4WD. You have simply misplaced your faith.

[Amo]

You not only suggest it, you demand it.  After all, in your view, the universe isn't old enough for the tectonic plate activity to have taken place.  The YEC view is that it all came into place about 6000 years or so ago with all the indications of those movements having already happened.

There is simply no scientific believable explanation for a flood causing tectonic plate movement. And by the way, I have no problem knowing that Young Earth Creationists believe that drivel.  It is what they do.  It is what you do.

So in fact, no one does believe as you suggested in the previous post I was addressing, and you knew and know that. God is not bound by the sciences so called, of puffed up puny minded fallen humanity. Nor is He bound by any of the laws of nature which He created and sustains. Nor can you know or understand what science could or can determine about a previous world which was very different from the one we now inhabit. Nor is there any reason to  assume all tectonic plate movement was restricted to the flood alone, though no doubt the most rapid and radical of such was.

There is simply no scientific believable explanation for a virgin having a child either, yet you believe that, don't you? Why will you try to make God and scripture fit into your own standards of what is or is not possible? Do you really consider yourself and evolutionists to be the standard, instead of God and the word of His chosen prophets and Apostles?

[4WD]

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the Apostle Peter are not liars or purveyors of bad science 4WD.

I have never said they were.  It is just that you are the purveyor of bad interpretations.

[4WD]

Why will you try to make God and scripture fit into your own standards of what is or is not possible?

That is you, not me.

[Rella]

Why will you pretend not to know that Creationists believe these movements were extremely rapid during the global flood event? No one is or has suggested the completely false mile a year narrative you posed above.

And neither did I ... but I know if that was i the blueprints for the flood it would be.

4WD said" Actually most of the theological community denies the account of a global flood.  There is no greater fictional story than a global flood."

4WD said "  That would be about a mile a year.  That is some movement.  As I said, I think common sense would tell you that didn't happen"

If you have read anything I said about the global flooding of the day you would know that is my belief.... but for different reasons that I get knocked all over the place anytime I say anything.

You say " Why will you pretend not to know that Creationists believe these movements were extremely rapid during the global flood event?

The truth of the matter is that I simply do not know what creationists believe other then what you post, and myself.

Science has it all wrong... as usual... but we are not given a lot to work with biblically after Noah and all elf the ark.

With God all things are possible and they were in fact fact.

You say " Creationists believe these movements were extremely rapid during the global flood event?

I say could be... but where are we told... even down the ranks of word by mouth? And what do those who have the flood in their histories? What have they passed on?

I simply wont say something I cannot prove other then "With God all things are possible"

[Amo]

I have never said they were.  It is just that you are the purveyor of bad interpretations.

As stated many times over and again already, that which you call my interpretation, is believing what the scriptures simply and plainly state. As always as well, you offer no interpretation, but simply deny my own reiteration of what scripture itself plainly states. Nevertheless, here we are again. Please do give us your interpretation of what the scriptures meant of how things actually went down. Use the scriptures themselves please to do so, don't just say they do nit mean what the appear to say. Thank you.

[Amo]

That is you, not me.

Please provide an example or demonstration of my doing such. Thank you. I have provided, and you have testified of your faith in the theory of evolution which is found nowhere in scripture at all. Which means you cannot be getting these ideas from scripture, and therefore must be attempting to fit scripture into this unbiblical narrative, rather than the other way around. You also deny a global flood which is without question recorded as such in scripture and backed up in several different places in the scriptures to that effect. Therefore also is this narrative completely unbiblical, and an attempt by all who profess it to fit God's word into their own narratives. So be it.

[Amo]

And neither did I ... but I know if that was i the blueprints for the flood it would be.

4WD said" Actually most of the theological community denies the account of a global flood.  There is no greater fictional story than a global flood."

4WD said "  That would be about a mile a year.  That is some movement.  As I said, I think common sense would tell you that didn't happen"

If you have read anything I said about the global flooding of the day you would know that is my belief.... but for different reasons that I get knocked all over the place anytime I say anything.

You say " Why will you pretend not to know that Creationists believe these movements were extremely rapid during the global flood event?

The truth of the matter is that I simply do not know what creationists believe other then what you post, and myself.

Science has it all wrong... as usual... but we are not given a lot to work with biblically after Noah and all elf the ark.

With God all things are possible and they were in fact fact.

You say " Creationists believe these movements were extremely rapid during the global flood event?

I say could be... but where are we told... even down the ranks of word by mouth? And what do those who have the flood in their histories? What have they passed on?

I simply wont say something I cannot prove other then "With God all things are possible"

You are answering a question that was not directed at you at all. I was addressing 4WD. Nevertheless, you have much more than a simple "With God all things are possible" argument. You simply choose not to use the clear testimonies in scripture stating the fact of a global flood according to God's word.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD..........................................
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth..................................................
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. 4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth....................................................
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Many on these boards look with disgust upon the left for ignoring and or denying basic facts right in front of their faces, and rightly so. Yet many of these same people deny simple, plain, conclusive testimony and statements of scripture right in front of their faces in this same fashion. Scripture which is repeated and enlarged upon several times over to stress the very points being denied by those who wish it not to be so. Nevertheless, the testimony is there, and all will choose to either conform their lives to that testimony, or attempt to conform God's word to their own chosen narratives in contradiction to the same. Such are the decisions of eternal consequence. May God grant us all the grace to conform our lives unto the testimony of His word, and not the other way around.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

[Rella]

You are answering a question that was not directed at you at all. I was addressing 4WD. Nevertheless, you have much more than a simple "With God all things are possible" argument. You simply choose not to use the clear testimonies in scripture stating the fact of a global flood according to God's word.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD..........................................
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth..................................................
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. 4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth....................................................
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Many on these boards look with disgust upon the left for ignoring and or denying basic facts right in front of their faces, and rightly so. Yet many of these same people deny simple, plain, conclusive testimony and statements of scripture right in front of their faces in this same fashion. Scripture which is repeated and enlarged upon several times over to stress the very points being denied by those who wish it not to be so. Nevertheless, the testimony is there, and all will choose to either conform their lives to that testimony, or attempt to conform God's word to their own chosen narratives in contradiction to the same. Such are the decisions of eternal consequence. May God grant us all the grace to conform our lives unto the testimony of His word, and not the other way around.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Ill bow out of this now.

4WD said
4WD said" Actually most of the theological community denies the account of a global flood.  There is no greater fictional story than a global flood."

4WD said "  That would be about a mile a year.  That is some movement.  As I said, I think common sense would tell you that didn't happen"

If you do not think that God could do either then it is you who needs to check your scriptures.

I do know that God said nothing in the 4 corners of the bible about the movement of Teutonic plates either fast or slow and he did not mention the alteration of the surface of the earth either in

You say "  You simply choose not to use the clear testimonies in scripture stating the fact of a global flood according to God's word."

First... I dont need to because you always do.

Next... What the bible has to say is not what is being talked about.

C. I have always maintained a solid belief in a GLOBAL flood as well as giants of all kinds including man.

I was not answering your response to 4WD per se... just stating the obvious to me of   when he said

"Plain old common sense would tell you that is pure garbage.  Seriously, that is so bad it would be a joke to any rational thinking person.
Actually most of the theological community denies the account of a global flood.  There is no greater fictional story than a global flood."

And my reply was



Enjoy your debate and Ill stay away, but if you can , get him or anyone to prove biblically it never happened world wide to the point of other religions and peoples talking about it.