Creation scientists

[Rella]

Whether much of Genesis is literal or metaphorical, is the least of the Christians worry today, the bigger issue is the judgment and the division created by the know-it-all's. Have fun with that. 

Funny.

I just turned on this computer and got to this thread and saw that my reply... unless someone posts before me will be #1400... and there is not one ounce of agreement now then started in the beginning....

Another instance where no one knows the meaning of is and no one wants to try to understand why the other believes as they do 

Such a shame.... but this is another area where 1 Cor 14tells us in part "For God is not the author of confusion........"
And I tend to wonder about that. After all... it is said he confused people ( by language) at the Tower of Babel.... NO!!!!!!
dont go there. He confused people by tongues. That is fact. Why not confuse the understanding of what we say to others
about what we understand when we read and study His word?

For it is certain there is a lot of confusion in these 1400 replies.

[Alan]

Funny.

I just turned on this computer and got to this thread and saw that my reply... unless someone posts before me will be #1400... and there is not one ounce of agreement now then started in the beginning....

Another instance where no one knows the meaning of is and no one wants to try to understand why the other believes as they do 

Such a shame.... but this is another area where 1 Cor 14tells us in part "For God is not the author of confusion........"
And I tend to wonder about that. After all... it is said he confused people ( by language) at the Tower of Babel.... NO!!!!!!
dont go there. He confused people by tongues. That is fact. Why not confuse the understanding of what we say to others
about what we understand when we read and study His word?

For it is certain there is a lot of confusion in these 1400 replies.

I may not agree with everyone, but I respect every single person to the extent that I would never stoop low enough to question another person's walk in Christianity. To me, the theology and every other nuance involved with the studies mean literally nothing compared to an individual's outward expression, and there is definitely a lack of it here on this form. I know I've been guilty of it myself, so I'm not trying to relay self-righteousness here.


Healthy debate is good, but when it resorts to personal attacks because someone has no rebuttal for a given premise, it leaves little to the imagination of what that person must be really thinking. I believe some of these people adhere to the form rules, and have been previously warned when brinking, but what they'd really like to say is "you are going to burn in hell with your belief". 

[DaveW]

read Genesis again.  Try Chapter 7.

Indeed. Want to know where the Flood is?  It is at your local 7-11.

Genesis 7.11 to be exact.  And it is a Big Gulp - as it is written "the fountains of the deep ..." so it is a fountain drink. 

[Texas Conservative]

Funny.

I just turned on this computer and got to this thread and saw that my reply... unless someone posts before me will be #1400... and there is not one ounce of agreement now then started in the beginning....

Another instance where no one knows the meaning of is and no one wants to try to understand why the other believes as they do 

Such a shame.... but this is another area where 1 Cor 14tells us in part "For God is not the author of confusion........"
And I tend to wonder about that. After all... it is said he confused people ( by language) at the Tower of Babel.... NO!!!!!!
dont go there. He confused people by tongues. That is fact. Why not confuse the understanding of what we say to others
about what we understand when we read and study His word?

For it is certain there is a lot of confusion in these 1400 replies.

Reply #1396 was the definitive answer.

[Rella]

Reply #1396 was the definitive answer.

« Reply #1396 on: Yesterday at 13:23:57 »

ReplyQuote
Quote from: Rella on Yesterday at 12:57:23

Ya'll have a huge amount of experience... as does Cobalt. But you fail to come to a consensus on most.

Since my church is 100% right, and everyone else's is 100% wrong, if they want to agree with what God's Word says, they would agree with me, for I agree with God

Then please, please, please settle this once and for all.

In what year did Genesis 1:1 take place?

[Texas Conservative]

« Reply #1396 on: Yesterday at 13:23:57 »
Since my church is 100% right, and everyone else's is 100% wrong, if they want to agree with what God's Word says, they would agree with me, for I agree with God

Then please, please, please settle this once and for all.

In what year did Genesis 1:1 take place?

Year 0.   

But what does the bible say?  It does not, so to be 100% right, a definitive answer cannot be stated.

[4WD]

Alan, as a believer for almost fifty years, I have never intertained thoughts that any part of Genesis is to be understood  metaphorical/symbolic. I have not seen one section that would allow me to take Genesis in any other way, except literally.

I will ask you the same question that I have asked others who make that claim.  What is the literal interpretation of Gen 3:24, specifically the cherubim at the east of the Garden and the guard posed by the flaming sword?  If you can answer that then I will proceed to several others.

[RB]

I will ask you the same question that I have asked others who make that claim.  What is the literal interpretation of Gen 3:24, specifically the cherubim at the east of the Garden and the guard posed by the flaming sword?  If you can answer that then I will proceed to several others.

4WD, it is simple, it was angels, the same as here: Numbers 22:23; Joshua 5:13; 1st Chronicles 21:16, 27. In what sense Adam understood this, I cannot tell, but HE DID.

Give me more and let me see what you have.

[Rella]

I will ask you the same question that I have asked others who make that claim.  What is the literal interpretation of Gen 3:24, specifically the cherubim at the east of the Garden and the guard posed by the flaming sword?  If you can answer that then I will proceed to several others.

You have a problem with a literal interpretation of Gen 3:24?

[4WD]

4WD, it is simple, it was angels, the same as here: Numbers 22:23; Joshua 5:13; 1st Chronicles 21:16, 27. In what sense Adam understood this, I cannot tell, but HE DID.

Give me more and let me see what you have.

Are they still there, flaming swords and all?  If not, let's you and I take a trip and walk around the Garden.

[4WD]

Rella, you and join me and RB in our visit to the Garden.

[4WD]

Give me more and let me see what you have.

Given that the sun, moon and stars didn't show up until day four, what light appeared on day one?

What is evening and morning if there is no sun or moon?

What does it mean that the forbidden fruit provided a knowledge of good and evil?  Didn't Adam and Eve know that obey God was good and disobeying God is evil?  What other kind of good and evil is there?

Was it really a serpent that deceived Eve or was it Satan?

Do any serpents you have ever heard eat dirt?

[yogi bear]

Did the serpent actually stand upright before he was punished to crawl on his belly and did it really speak to humans in a voice they understood?

[RB]

Did the serpent actually stand upright before he was punished to crawl on his belly and

Absolutely!  I well remember playing golf a few years back when I was younger, and hitting a ball close to high grass, very high for a glof course, and as I was walking looking, I spotted a snake almost standing upright investgating who was near him, he was as high as the grass looking right at me. But, we did not have a conversation, I let him have the ball.

That being said, I have no problem believing they walked upright just as the scriptures said the curse was put upon them above all other creatures making him to crawl on his belly the remaining of time. One snake brought curse upon all of them. 

did it really speak to humans in a voice they understood?

Peter said a dumb ass did to Baalam stopping his madness:

2nd Peter 2:16~"But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

No problem on my part believng this, if recorded in the holy scriptures.

[4WD]

Balaam's ass spoke by the power of the Holy Spirit.  You think the serpent did as well?

[RB]

Given that the sun, moon and stars didn't show up until day four, what light appeared on day one?

I agree with those who have gone before me~all emphasis are mine: "It was proper that the light, by means of which the world was to be adorned with such excellent beauty, should be first created; and this also was the commencement of the distinction, (among the creatures) It did not, however, happen from inconsideration or by accident, that the light preceded the sun and the moon. To nothing are we more prone than to tie down the power of God to those instruments the agency of which he employs. The sun an moon supply us with light: And, according to our notions we so include this power to give light in them, that if they were taken away from the world, it would seem impossible for any light to remain. Therefore the Lord, by the very order of the creation, bears witness that he holds in his hand the light, which he is able to impart to us without the sun and moon. Further, it is certain from the context, that the light was so created as to be interchanged with darkness. But it may be asked, whether light and darkness succeeded each other in turn through the whole circuit of the world; or whether the darkness occupied one half of the circle, while light shone in the other. There is, however, no doubt that the order of their succession was alternate, but whether it was everywhere day at the same time, and everywhere night also, I would rather leave undecided; nor is it very necessary to be known." John Calvin commentary on Genesis one. I cannot do any better than these words, which I agree wholeheartiy with.

What is evening and morning if there is no sun or moon?

Read the notes above again, therein is your answer.

What does it mean that the forbidden fruit provided a knowledge of good and evil?  Didn't Adam and Eve know that obey God was good and disobeying God is evil?  What other kind of good and evil is there?

They only had knowledge of good, and the benifits of such, they had no knowledge of evil and its curse to those who were evil. God created them upright without sin in their members~that tree God commanded them not to eat by God's appointment gave them that knowledge, but different than what the serpent told them!

Yes they did know, yet Eve was beguilded of the serpent through hsi subtilty. God left them to their own power of their freewill, proving to us that God alone is immutable.

What other kind of good and evil is there?

None other than what is recorded in the law of God, summed up in the ten commandments.

Was it really a serpent that deceived Eve or was it Satan?

Both~in our days, it is through Satan working through false prophets.

Do any serpents you have ever heard eat dirt?

They sure taste of much of it as they crawl on the bellies.  If you crawled on your belly you would do the same

[RB]

Balaam's ass spoke by the power of the Holy Spirit.  You think the serpent did as well?

Well the magicians of Egypt matched Moses' mircales, so, what do you think, I say yes to your question as far a Satan givng the serpent power to do so, and by God allowing him to do so.

Exodus 7:22~And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

[4WD]

RB, I hate to say it but these statements that you have made here are the very reason that so many of our young folks leave the faith when they go off to college after being told your version of God and creation realizing that version is completely counter to 99% of the available data.

[4WD]

I agree with those who have gone before me~all emphasis are mine: "It was proper that the light, by means of which the world was to be adorned with such excellent beauty, should be first created; and this also was the commencement of the distinction, (among the creatures) It did not, however, happen from inconsideration or by accident, that the light preceded the sun and the moon. To nothing are we more prone than to tie down the power of God to those instruments the agency of which he employs. The sun an moon supply us with light: And, according to our notions we so include this power to give light in them, that if they were taken away from the world, it would seem impossible for any light to remain. Therefore the Lord, by the very order of the creation, bears witness that he holds in his hand the light, which he is able to impart to us without the sun and moon. Further, it is certain from the context, that the light was so created as to be interchanged with darkness. But it may be asked, whether light and darkness succeeded each other in turn through the whole circuit of the world; or whether the darkness occupied one half of the circle, while light shone in the other. There is, however, no doubt that the order of their succession was alternate, but whether it was everywhere day at the same time, and everywhere night also, I would rather leave undecided; nor is it very necessary to be known." John Calvin commentary on Genesis one. I cannot do any better than these words, which I agree wholeheartiy with.

But all of that is just so much Bovine Scat.  We have a very good scientific reason for light appearing on that first "day". John Calvin didn't know, but since the early to mid 20th century we know. And you should realize that there is only evening and morning for planets or bodies that rotate on their axes. 

Yes they did know, yet Eve was beguilded of the serpent through hsi subtilty. God left them to their own power of their freewill, proving to us that God alone is immutable.

Left to their own power of the freewill is precisely the definition of sinful nature, the freewill to choose to obey God or not.  But according to you they didn't have a sinful nature.

They sure taste of much of it as they crawl on the bellies.  If you crawled on your belly you would do the same

It doesn't say taste, it says eat.  Also, yours is not a literal description.

[4WD]

Also I find it interesting that in trying to claim complete literal description presented by the Genesis account, you resort to metaphor with the explanation:

"Therefore the Lord, by the very order of the creation, bears witness that he holds in his hand the light, which he is able to impart to us without the sun and moon."

[DaveW]

RB, I hate to say it but these statements that you have made here are the very reason that so many of our young folks leave the faith when they go off to college after being told your version of God and creation realizing that version is completely counter to 99% of the available data.

And I see that as a failure of the parents and churches to instill the PROPER biblical world view instead of the western secular "scientific" "logical" world view. 

How many of our kids have seen with their own eyes a miracle, a healing, a demon manifesting and then being cast out? 

[Rella]

Rella, you and join me and RB in our visit to the Garden.

Gotta get rid of that snake first.   Serpent is too nice of a name.

[Alan]

And I see that as a failure of the parents and churches to instill the PROPER biblical world view instead of the western secular "scientific" "logical" world view. 

How many of our kids have seen with their own eyes a miracle, a healing, a demon manifesting and then being cast out?

It's simply illogical to place all of the scientific data we have into the trash heap and label it as deception, while making absurd attempts to pitch a bizarre picture of how creation actually began.   

[4WD]

And I see that as a failure of the parents and churches to instill the PROPER biblical world view instead of the western secular "scientific" "logical" world view. 

How many of our kids have seen with their own eyes a miracle, a healing, a demon manifesting and then being cast out?

There is no information and data that says that a miracle didn't happen.  There are no scientists who present any data that says the miracles didn't happen.  Not so the events of creation.

As to a logical world view. Sad to say that you present in illogical world view and then try to convince others that is God's PROPER biblical world view.  Just as God is the author of the natural laws this world operates under, God is also the author of logic and the logical.  You would teach otherwise.

I would add here that miracles and creation are two different things entirely.  We may think of creation as miraculous, but it was not a miracle, biblically speaking.

[RB]

But according to you they didn't have a sinful nature. .

Well, they DID NOT...... they were created upright, but lost that glorious state in which they were created~and their wills became bondage to sin and the devil who deceived them.

It doesn't say taste, it says eat

4WD, come on....if you taste something you end up eating it! Children are notorious in doing this~that's why we stop them when they drop something they are eating on the ground from continuing to eat it once it hits the ground.

[4WD]

Well, they DID NOT...... they were created upright, but lost that glorious state in which they were created~and their wills became bondage to sin and the devil who deceived them.

Yes, just like you and I and everyone born after Adam and Eve.

4WD, come on....if you taste something you end up eating it! Children are notorious in doing this~that's why we stop them when they drop something they are eating on the ground from continuing to eat it once it hits the ground.

But taste and eat are not the same thing.  So I ask you again, what serpents do you know of that eat dust?  Otherwise you are again using metaphor to explain what you said was literal.

[Rella]

 

It's simply illogical to place all of the scientific data we have into the trash heap and label it as deception, while making absurd attempts to pitch a bizarre picture of how creation actually began.   

Okay.

One more time.

HOW did the creation of oxygen breathing walk on 2 legs of life begin?

And why is there a difference between "Let us make man in our image"  and man and woman began... And  the special creation of God made from the dust of the earth. He ... not they....was created by God-formed out of the ground?

[Alan]

Okay.

One more time.

HOW did the creation of oxygen breathing walk on 2 legs of life begin?

3.7 billion years ago with carbon molecules

And why is there a difference between "Let us make man in our image"  and man and woman began... And  the special creation of God made from the dust of the earth. He ... not they....was created by God-formed out of the ground?

That's up to you and everyone else to make sense of, it (they) could mean many different things, but to me, man's body is not the special creation from God, it is man's spirit, breathed into consciousness by God. 

[Amo]

RB, I hate to say it but these statements that you have made here are the very reason that so many of our young folks leave the faith when they go off to college after being told your version of God and creation realizing that version is completely counter to 99% of the available data.

Yea, cause everyone knows God, His word, and creations, are subject to the limitations of humanities superior data collecting and guess work concerning the same. Some day the stories He told in the bible will finally bow to the superior reasoning abilities of fallen humanity. Not!

Isa 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Exo 19:16  And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up...................................
Exo 20:1  And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it........
Exo 20:18  And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

[Rella]

3.7 billion years ago with carbon molecules

That's up to you and everyone else to make sense of, it (they) could mean many different things, but to me, man's body is not the special creation from God, it is man's spirit, breathed into consciousness by God.

So the making of Adam from the Garden of Eden came from Carbon molecules and not dirt?

Interesting 

[Alan]

So the making of Adam from the Garden of Eden came from Carbon molecules and not dirt?

Interesting 

Yep, because the entire Adam, Eve, Garden tale is figurative, not literal. It's designed to give us insight into man's nature, not give us a lesson in history.

[Amo]

3.7 billion years ago with carbon molecules

That's up to you and everyone else to make sense of, it (they) could mean many different things, but to me, man's body is not the special creation from God, it is man's spirit, breathed into consciousness by God.

So what do the following words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ mean -

Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

He says, from the beginning of creation God made them male and female. Not that we came from carbon molecules and slow developing evolutionary processes over 3.7 billion years. Do you really think God couldn't just tell us that if that is the way it was, but had to wait for "scientists so called" to figure such out? And then what, everybody was supposed to just believe this is how it really was, or that it in fact does not matter what anyone believes concerning our origins? If in fact that is the case, then why would He leave us the testimony He did, knowing so many would believe that testimony for so long? Isn't He then the author of deception?

Tit 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

[Cobalt1959]

I will ask you the same question that I have asked others who make that claim.  What is the literal interpretation of Gen 3:24, specifically the cherubim at the east of the Garden and the guard posed by the flaming sword?  If you can answer that then I will proceed to several others.

As RB pointed out Cherubim are angelic beings, mentioned in other parts of the Bible as well.  1, or more were placed on the Eastern side of the Garden to keep mankind from entering the Garden.  You will not find the Cherubim there now, nor the Garden itself since The Flood would have destroyed the Garden of Eden and the Cherubim would no longer be needed there.  But they would have remained there until Noah's time. 

[Cobalt1959]

Yep, because the entire Adam, Eve, Garden tale is figurative, not literal. It's designed to give us insight into man's nature, not give us a lesson in history.

So you are saying that Jesus' genealogy in Luke is, as The Car Talk guys used to say . . . "Bo-o-Ogus?  Perhaps we cannot take Jesus' death on the cross, or even the existence of Jesus Himself as literal either . . . 

It is odd that Genesis would provide specific names for people involved in specific events as well as their ages and when they were born and when they died.  Names, events and timelines repeated in the New Testament.  Enoch is used in specific references to events and things he prophesied about in the New Testament.  So are other Old Testament people.  From a story you say is figurative.  If you can't believe that these people existed and did the things God said they did, then you can't believe in Jesus, or salvation either.  You are saying that the very foundation the Bible rests on doesn't actually exist.

[Cobalt1959]

So the making of Adam from the Garden of Eden came from Carbon molecules and not dirt?

Interesting 

I think that is kind of splitting hairs, because carbon can, in fact be part of "dirt."  What we call dirt is composed of all kinds of elements, compounds and organic matter, all depending on where you are.

I think what the people who want to be Christians but not appear as backward, dogmatic and just plain stupid to secular society want to embrace Evolution as well, at least in some form, because since it's own "evolution" it's been the vehicle for creation that all the Cool Kids adopted so they looked urbane, trendy and edgy.  "I'm in with the "In" crowd."  It's passe and boneheaded to cling to a hopelessly backward faith in what God tells us happened.  He couldn't possibly be right, because secular science says He's not only wrong, God isn't even there. 

Sound theology and doctrine grow more and more difficult to find as time progresses and Paul told us this would happen.  And there are so many Christian Lite packages to choose from today it's difficult to figure out which one of them you might like the best.