Works of the Law

[Michael2012]

If you believe Him, then believe in scriptures.

I asked you simple questions (if you believe the scriptures I quoted) answerable by yes or no, yet you ignore and indirectly say no by using other scriptures. And that's what make it worst, using scriptures, as making it appear that scriptures contradict scriptures.

So I ask again, for your sake:

Do you believe in James 2:10?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Yes I believe all scriptures. If you are a man or a preacher and you don't steal, or kill anyone, but you molest little boys, then you are guilty of breaking all the Commandments and must repent and beg God for Mercy.

So, you believe that every time you break even a single commandment, you are not only guilty of breaking that, but guilty of breaking all. So, do you ask for forgiveness for that single transgression or for breaking all?

Also, may I know if you preach that when you broke a commandment/law and you sinned, you won't be saved if you happen to die without having repented and ask God for mercy?

Do you believe in yourself that you are able to not break a single commandment/law of God within the day? If in case you say you are able to do that, for how long do you see yourself to be able to keep up with that and not sin?

Do you believe in Romans 10:4?

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Yes, I believe this verse along with all others as well. I don't need to look any further than Jesus to know what the perfect man of God is. And like Paul, I will spend the rest of my life "pressing toward to Mark".

Philippians 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

So you believe that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. What does "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" means to you?

By the way, do you know what is the righteousness which is of the law?

Yes I do. In the Old Covenant there was a Law given to Levi, a foreshadow of the Sacrifice of the Christ, whereby men were cleansed of their unrighteousness by the performance of Levitical Priesthood sacrificial, ceremonial "Works of the Law". This Law, given by God to Moses, "Till the Seed should Come", consisted of bringing an animal to the Levite Priest who would take it's Blood and sprinkle it on the alter, which was symbolic of the Christ shedding His own Blood for the remission or cleansing of our unrighteousness or sins.

The Pharisees, who lived in disobedience to God's Commandments and had created their own, were seeking righteousness by following and promoting their version of this "Law". They didn't believe Jeremiah 31, and they didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied "Lamb of God", who would become their High Priest. They were "seeking Righteousness by the Law" or were teaching "Justification" by "works of the Law".

There are "many" who come in Christ's Name, who preach that the Pharisees were trying to "seek Righteousness" by Loving God and Loving their neighbor as themselves, and all that hangs on these laws. This is an insidious deception which has overthrown the faith of many, And the reason for this thread in the hope that maybe even one person can see the folly in this widespread religious doctrine.

Did I get you right that for you, the righteousness which is of the law is the law for atonement of sins?

[Michael2012]

Do we see Jesus Christ anywhere there, whom the Bible says is the Savior?

How can you not see the Savior? Whose Word's did I Post? Whose Word's are Spirit, and Whose Word's are Life?

All I can see there is you saving yourself by your obedience, your want to keep the commandments and Laws of God, your intent to be humble. It all YOURS to do, I can see that clearly now. And that is what you preach obviously.

No Michael, the Christ of the Bible is there, but you can't see Him.

But I didn't post my own words Michael, I posted the clear instructions from the Christ of the Bible. You refuse to even address them.

A christian who relies not on Christ for salvation but on himself, his obedience and humility.

He said to "Deny myself", "humble myself", "submit myself", not to you or the Baptist religious franchise, not to the Pope and their ancient religious traditions. The Christ told me over and over, from the very beginning, to "humble myself "TO HIM".

Your response is perfect. A man denies himself as Jesus requires, and follows Jesus' instruction striving to be a "doer of His Saying" not a hearer, as Jesus requires, and you claim he is trying to "earn" salvation by his works.

Fascinating how it is the same from Cain's time to this very day. Truly there is nothing new under the sun.

And totally is not the gospel of Christ.

Not your Gospel to be sure, but everything I posted came from the Gospel of Christ. It's in your own Bible.

Perhaps, you'll say that Jesus Christ is your Savior. Is He? If so, in what way is He your Savior?

If not, then what?

[4WD]

You claim to know the how and when. On the other hand you say that you cannot look at someone and know whether or not they have been born again. If you know the how and when, how can you not know that one is born again or not?

The point is not knowing if or when someone else has been born again, the point is knowing how and when you can be born again.

[GB]

author=Michael2012 link=topic=104892.msg1055151058#msg1055151058 date=1573057142]
Yes I believe all scriptures. If you are a man or a preacher and you don't steal, or kill anyone, but you molest little boys, then you are guilty of breaking all the Commandments and must repent and beg God for Mercy.

So, you believe that every time you break even a single commandment, you are not only guilty of breaking that, but guilty of breaking all. So, do you ask for forgiveness for that single transgression or for breaking all?

I am responding to the Words of the Spirit filled Apostle of the Christ.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

I believe what James is teaching here.

Also, may I know if you preach that when you broke a commandment/law and you sinned, you won't be saved if you happen to die without having repented and ask God for mercy?

God's Word isn't a game to me as it is to you. Go play your "chase your tail" games with someone else.

Do you believe in yourself that you are able to not break a single commandment/law of God within the day? If in case you say you are able to do that, for how long do you see yourself to be able to keep up with that and not sin?

Your question is ignorant, I already answered it with scriptures. Go play your fool hardy games with someone else.

So you believe that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. What does "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" means to you?

I already answered your question. You should actually read the posts you reply to. It is the most basic courtesy.

Yes I do. In the Old Covenant there was a Law given to Levi, a foreshadow of the Sacrifice of the Christ, whereby men were cleansed of their unrighteousness by the performance of Levitical Priesthood sacrificial, ceremonial "Works of the Law". This Law, given by God to Moses, "Till the Seed should Come", consisted of bringing an animal to the Levite Priest who would take it's Blood and sprinkle it on the alter, which was symbolic of the Christ shedding His own Blood for the remission or cleansing of our unrighteousness or sins.

The Pharisees, who lived in disobedience to God's Commandments and had created their own, were seeking righteousness by following and promoting their version of this "Law". They didn't believe Jeremiah 31, and they didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied "Lamb of God", who would become their High Priest. They were "seeking Righteousness by the Law" or were teaching "Justification" by "works of the Law".

There are "many" who come in Christ's Name, who preach that the Pharisees were trying to "seek Righteousness" by Loving God and Loving their neighbor as themselves, and all that hangs on these laws. This is an insidious deception which has overthrown the faith of many, And the reason for this thread in the hope that maybe even one person can see the folly in this widespread religious doctrine.

Did I get you right that for you, the righteousness which is of the law is the law for atonement of sins?

The Bible references Jews, Pharisees, Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, who were trying to become righteous by the Law. I answered your question in so great a detail that even a small honest child could understand what I said.

Please, go bother someone else with your foolish games and leave this thread to whose who are interested in an honest discussion as to what the "works of the Law" the Jews were promoting to the Galatians.

[GB]

Perhaps, you'll say that Jesus Christ is your Savior. Is He? If so, in what way is He your Savior?

If not, then what?

He's only my Savior if I deny myself and follow Him. If I don't, then He doesn't even know me. So I can call Him Lord, Lord all day every day. I can honor Him with my lips in front of others all the time. I can feed poor folks in His Name, build huge churches in His Name, call Him my Savior all day long, give Him the credit for everthing. But if I am not a "doer" of His Sayings, then He doesn't even know me.

This isn't the words of some preacher, or teaching of some religious franchise, this is the Word's and the Teaching of the Lord's Christ in whom I have placed my trust and my life.

And I am sharing my understanding of Him with you. If you don't agree, that is fine, move on.

[Michael2012]

You claim to know the how and when. On the other hand you say that you cannot look at someone and know whether or not they have been born again. If you know the how and when, how can you not know that one is born again or not?

The point is not knowing if or when someone else has been born again, the point is knowing when you can be born again.

Yes, I know your point. But it still remains, you contradict yourself there.

And on the issue, what I am pointing on the other hand is that in the passage, Jesus' answer was on Nicodemus' question which is with regards the HOW one is born again, not the WHEN. So that, we can't get from Jesus' answer, the matter as to when one is born again. To say that by Jesus' answer, you get to know when one is born again is therefore clearly erroneous and making the passage say what it does not.

This is in addition to my point that in John 3:8, wherein Jesus said "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." With this, and I repeat, to say that we can tell HOW one is born again or knows HOW to be born again, is like saying that we can tell where the wind comes from and where it goes. And we would be making Jesus out to have spoken a lie or have erred when He said we can't tell. Jesus was not telling us about the WHEN but about the HOW, in answer to Nicodemus' question in verse 4.

Now, if you insist that Jesus told you the WHEN in the passage in John 3:4-8, then I must disagree. And perhaps we can then agree to disagree on this matter and leave this out to the readers to see and decide for themselves between our take, which is right and which is wrong.

[Michael2012]

So, you believe that every time you break even a single commandment, you are not only guilty of breaking that, but guilty of breaking all. So, do you ask for forgiveness for that single transgression or for breaking all?

I am responding to the Words of the Spirit filled Apostle of the Christ.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

I believe what James is teaching here.

The question remains. A very direct and simple question any honest Christian can answer. Quoting scriptures which obviously does not and cannot answer for you the question that demands your personal response, as a way to evade answering such simple questions is really telling about your character and person.

Also, may I know if you preach that when you broke a commandment/law and you sinned, you won't be saved if you happen to die without having repented and ask God for mercy?

God's Word isn't a game to me as it is to you. Go play your "chase your tail" games with someone else.

Again, direct and simple questions such as this one, never fails to have you running away, with the false claim that you have already answered it, and that even saying, with scriptures, when such a question demands a personal response from you, which scriptures cannot do for you. And I am not playing any game here GB. I don't play around when what I'm dealing with concerns the truth and God. Do you?

Do you believe in yourself that you are able to not break a single commandment/law of God within the day? If in case you say you are able to do that, for how long do you see yourself to be able to keep up with that and not sin?

Your question is ignorant, I already answered it with scriptures. Go play your fool hardy games with someone else.

Again here, a direct and simple question have you running away, with the false claim that you have already answered it, and that even saying, with scriptures, when such a question demands a personal response from you, which scriptures cannot do for you.

So you believe that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. What does "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" means to you?

I already answered your question. You should actually read the posts you reply to. It is the most basic courtesy.

And yet again here, direct and simple questions such as this one, never fails to have you running away, with the false claim that you have already answered it, and that even saying, with scriptures, when such a question demands a personal response from you, which scriptures cannot do for you.

You might think that a response is necessarily an answer to a question? No sir. Well we have this thread for all to see. 

Did I get you right that for you, the righteousness which is of the law is the law for atonement of sins?

The Bible references Jews, Pharisees, Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, who were trying to become righteous by the Law. I answered your question in so great a detail that even a small honest child could understand what I said.

Please, go bother someone else with your foolish games and leave this thread to whose who are interested in an honest discussion as to what the "works of the Law" the Jews were promoting to the Galatians.

So be it then, that's what is "the righteousness which is of the law" is for you. And that makes you to be in err.

Scriptures exposes the error.

Romans 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."

[Michael2012]

Perhaps, you'll say that Jesus Christ is your Savior. Is He? If so, in what way is He your Savior?

If not, then what?

He's only my Savior if I deny myself and follow Him. If I don't, then He doesn't even know me. So I can call Him Lord, Lord all day every day. I can honor Him with my lips in front of others all the time. I can feed poor folks in His Name, build huge churches in His Name, call Him my Savior all day long, give Him the credit for everthing. But if I am not a "doer" of His Sayings, then He doesn't even know me.

This isn't the words of some preacher, or teaching of some religious franchise, this is the Word's and the Teaching of the Lord's Christ in whom I have placed my trust and my life.

And I am sharing my understanding of Him with you. If you don't agree, that is fine, move on.

So, Jesus is your savior, only if you deny yourself and follow Him. That sounds good.

And I can gather from your other posts that He saves you by way of His preaching/teaching you through scriptures, how you can save yourself, that is, by your obedience and keeping of all God's commandments/Laws and by humbling yourself. And when you fall into sin, you just keep on repenting and ask for God's mercy. In that way, you can keep yourself saved. It's just like in the days of Moses, in the old covenant, only this time, there was no need for repeated animal sacrifices. So, you need to keep the whole Law, no different from how the Jews were required to live. It seems to me, you are practically a Jew who have Jesus as your teacher or your "Moses", and your once and for all atoning sacrifice for your sin. It seems to me that you are then under the Law that God gave to Moses as written in scriptures, except for the laws for the atonement of sin and circumcision. And for that, then you are not under grace. For it could not be both. It's either you are under grace or under Law. And you prefer to be under Law, as does the Jews who rejected the grace that is in Christ. 

Please tell us, how do you see the death of Jesus Christ in relation to your salvation?

How do you see the resurrection of Jesus Christ in relation to your salvation?

For what purpose/s do you get from scriptures as to why the Word have to come down from heaven and dwell on earth, and become flesh in the person of Jesus Christ?

Please don't run away from the questions.

[RB]

You think that because you really do not understand what it means to be born again.  You really do not understand what it means to be born the first time, so it is not surprising that you do not understand what it means to be born again. 

You saying that means nothing, and you must say that to add any seemly credentials to your doctrine that you espouse to, along with GB and others~ granting that he is the one who carries his work gospel with an openly proud banner, much like the sodomites who are not ashamed of their sin against nature so much so that they do not seek to hide their wickedness.

You think that because you really do not understand what it means to be born again.

I believe just as Jesus Christ taught us:

John 3:8~"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

The new birth is a INVISIBLE, MYSTERIOUSLY, working of God's mighty power where he comes to the elect sinner, and quickens to spiritual life by creating IN THEM a new man after the image of Jesus Christ, SOMETIME after conception to the death of their bodies~with John the Baptist and the thief on the cross as two perfect examples of his holy birth from heaven. God alone is the only active person performing this holy birth of an elect child of God~the sinner is totally passive (being dead in trespasses and sins). The FLESH IS NOT born again, for that which is flesh shall perish being corrupt and sinful from conception. God creates a NEW MAN in knowledge, understanding and TRUE HOLINESS, one that GB thinks he can earn by his own wicked works! This new man is a FREE GIFT of God's grace through the righteousness of his darling Son~and GB and others are NOT to be compared to his Son who ALONE yielded perfect obedience to His Father's law, and THAT OBDEINCE was freely imputeth to the elect's account on the books of Heaven~which books will be open in that day and there you can read the names of the called-out ones, with words PAID IN FULL, no debt owe!

One more thought before leaving this point of being born of the Spirit. Since God alone is the only active person in this birth, this new birth can take place at any time~one can be dead asleep, no problem! No can be working at the mill, NO PROBLEM; one can be plowing behind a mule, NO PROBLEM! One could be having sex with his or her spouse, NO PROBLEM! Unto God, all things are the same~and he does not NEED man's cooperation since man is UNABLE to hear, see or even respond! The new birth is much like the wind~NO MAN knows from whence it comes and neither knows from whence it goes, SO IS everyone that is born of the Spirit of God. You can ONLY see the EFFECT of where it has been, so is this true of one born of the Spirit of God. You DO NOT need a preacher, for one is NOT born of the WILL OF MAN, and you do not need the word of God, for that is foolishness to unregenerate sinners! The word of God CANNOT bring LIFE to a sinner, it can ONLY MANIFEST where the Spirit of God HAS BEEN to give life!

2nd Timothy 1:9,10~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

The gospel brings to LIGHT where there is LIFE first given by the Spirit of God. If God had NOT first gone BEFORE Paul unto the Gentiles, then Paul's efforts would have been FRUITLESS and met with death. This is true of ALL missionary efforts since that day. 

So, 4WD, it is NOT me that does not know, but you and your friends.

You really do not understand what it means to be born the first time,

Again, you are wrong and all others who reject that we are born SINNERS with a flesh that is corrupt and at enmity against God FROM OUR MOTHER'S WOMB! Jesus said that which is born of the flesh IS FLESH! To be born of the flesh is to born AFTER ADAM'S FALLEN IMAGE~per Genesis 5:3  and Jesus' very own words:

John 3:6~That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Sir, what do you think Jesus meant by saying those words? You answer that for all of us. I KNOW.

The point is not knowing if or when someone else has been born again, the point is knowing how and when you can be born again.

Again, NO INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN on how to be born again since the new birth is OF GOD with NO CONDITIONS given to be followed~that is not why John 3:1-8 was given to us~those scriptures is clearly teaching us that "except" one is born of the Spirit of God "first" no man can see what Nicodemus "did see" by his own humble confession! Ponder well the context of John 3:1-8 and this is clear to him that understandeth! I would to God that you could see this blessed truth in all sincerity

[4WD]

Perhaps, you'll say that Jesus Christ is your Savior. Is He? If so, in what way is He your Savior?

If not, then what?

There is almost never an issue with Jesus being our Savior. The problem comes with Jesus being our Lord.  That is where the rubber meets the road.  At least that is the problem that I face every day.

[GB]

author=Michael2012 link=topic=104892.msg1055151077#msg1055151077 date=1573091937]
I am responding to the Words of the Spirit filled Apostle of the Christ.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

I believe what James is teaching here.

The question remains. A very direct and simple question any honest Christian can answer. Quoting scriptures which obviously does not and cannot answer for you the question that demands your personal response, as a way to evade answering such simple questions is really telling about your character and person.

You are the perfect example of the following scriptures.

Luke 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?

32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

If I answer your questions with my words, then you imply I am just reflecting the opinion of a self righteous man. If I answer your questions with God's Word which show the true answer from my heart, then I am evading the question. If you were honest, you would admit there isn't anything I can say that you would agree with, unless I submit to your religion.

Again, direct and simple questions such as this one, never fails to have you running away, with the false claim that you have already answered it, and that even saying, with scriptures, when such a question demands a personal response from you, which scriptures cannot do for you. And I am not playing any game here GB. I don't play around when what I'm dealing with concerns the truth and God. Do you?

I did already answer it. You asked;

Do you believe in Romans 10:4? Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I answered honestly and from the heart.

"Yes, I believe this verse along with all others as well. I don't need to look any further than Jesus to know what the perfect man of God is. And like Paul, I will spend the rest of my life "pressing toward to Mark".

Philippians 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."

So again, you ask the question and I answered it from my heart. Now you are lying to everyone on this forum by saying I didn't answer your question. What you would say if you were honest, is that you just don't agree with my answer. But you can't do that because that would mean you don't agree with Paul who mirrors by belief. You are way to cleaver and subtle to do that in front of other men.

Your question is ignorant, I already answered it with scriptures. Go play your fool hardy games with someone else.

Again here, a direct and simple question have you running away, with the false claim that you have already answered it, and that even saying, with scriptures, when such a question demands a personal response from you, which scriptures cannot do for you.

Again, you don't believe the scriptures, so you can't use them to express your belief. But I do, with all my heart. To you, the Bible is just buffet of one liners that you can pick from to justify certain religious doctrines. To me, God's Word's are Spirit, and they are Life, and they direct my footsteps because I have submitted to them. Paul explains the belief from my heart perfectly in the answer I gave you.

"12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,"

And yet again here, direct and simple questions such as this one, never fails to have you running away, with the false claim that you have already answered it, and that even saying, with scriptures, when such a question demands a personal response from you, which scriptures cannot do for you.

That is your religion, your belief, not mine, or Paul's. Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

The Bible references Jews, Pharisees, Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, who were trying to become righteous by the Law. I answered your question in so great a detail that even a small honest child could understand what I said.

Please, go bother someone else with your foolish games and leave this thread to whose who are interested in an honest discussion as to what the "works of the Law" the Jews were promoting to the Galatians.

So be it then, that's what is "the righteousness which is of the law" is for you. And that makes you to be in err.

Scriptures exposes the error.

Romans 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."

Like I said, the Bible to you is a collection of bumper stickers you choose from to justify a certain religious doctrine. In this case the lie you are trying to further is that the Pharisees were trying get the Galatians to obey God for justification of sins. But if you respected the Christ of the Bible enough to humble yourself to His inspired Words you wouldn't preach this heresy as Paul clearly explains, not with His own words, but from Scriptures.

Rom. 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

[4WD]

There is so much to deal with in your post that it is hard to know where to begin.  But I will start with this:

So, 4WD, it is NOT me that does not know, but you and your friends. Again, you are wrong and all others who reject that we are born SINNERS with a flesh that is corrupt and at enmity against God FROM OUR MOTHER'S WOMB! Jesus said that which is born of the flesh IS FLESH! To be born of the flesh is to born AFTER ADAM'S FALLEN IMAGE~per Genesis 5:3  and Jesus' very own words:

John 3:6~That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Sir, what do you think Jesus meant by saying those words? You answer that for all of us. I KNOW.

Jesus said ...that which is born of Spirit is spirit..... Thus Jesus is saying, without any confusion, that the spirit, our spirits, come from God.  You reject that since you claim that your [fallen] spirit came from your parents.  RB, that is wrong. And that is at the heart of why so much of your soteriology is wrong.

When we come into this world we come with body and spirit. The body, the flesh, comes from our parents; The spirit comes from God (Gen 2:7; Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7).  RB that is the fundamental difference between you and your pet dog (if you have a pet dog).  It is the difference between man and the rest of the brute animal kingdom. 

As John Gill notes in his commentary on Genesis 2:7, "And this was produced not with his body, as the souls of brutes were, and was produced by the breath of God, as theirs were not; nor theirs out of the earth, as his body was: and these two different productions show the different nature of the soul and body of man, the one is material and mortal, the other immaterial and immortal: "  Here of course we need to distinguish the subtle difference between soul and spirit.  If that is not clear to you, we can discuss that elsewhere.

Jesus reiterates this very important feature of mankind.  He said, "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit"; the spirit is born of Spirit and that from birth.  What Jesus is telling Nicodemus here in verse 3 is that his spirit must be REborn, i.e., born AGAIN.  The question that is raised immediately is, "Why does the spirit of a man need to be REborn?"  If from birth, the spirit of a man is from God, what happened that it needs to be REborn?  Sin happened.  Not Adam's sin; the man's sin.

We have to always understand that sin is the product of the material and mortal body of man.  The result of that sin, while it can at times severely impact the body of man, is the devastating impact it has on the spirit.  Paul said, "For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me" (Rom 7:11). Obviously it didn't kill him physically, i.e., bodily, fleshly.  It killed him spiritually. His spirit died.  His spirit needed to be REborn.  He described that in a variety of ways else where.  For example, he told the saints in Ephesus, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked" (Eph 2:1-2).  And please note that it wasn't the trespasses and sins in which Adam once walked.  Paul told them it was the trespasses and sins in which THEY once walked.  Now then what did Paul say about those spirits once dead in trespasses and sins?  He said,  "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--  and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,,,"(Eph 2:4-6).

He "made us alive"; He regenerated us: we were born again; we were born from above.  He said much the same thing to the Saints at Corinth.  He said, concerning their once unrighteous behavior that they "were washed, were sanctified, were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1Cor 6:11).   What did he say to Titus about this?  He said, "he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)   Now I know that you will scoff at this, but it is important to note that washing in 1 Corinthians 6:11 and in Titus 3:5 is verb form of the same Greek word, λουτρόν [loutron], as used in Paul's own regeneration commanded by Ananias: "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away (GR -ἀπολούω [apolouō]) your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16)

More later.....

[GB]

 author=Michael2012 link=topic=104892.msg1055151079#msg1055151079 date=1573093523]

So, Jesus is your savior, only if you deny yourself and follow Him. That sounds good.

And I can gather from your other posts that He saves you by way of His preaching/teaching you through scriptures, how you can save yourself, that is, by your obedience and keeping of all God's commandments/Laws and by humbling yourself.

I posted what the Christ teaches Michael. I never said, implied, suggested in any way that I save myself and you know it. This is just another in a long line of falsehoods you preach. But hey, if you don't think lying is a sin, then to you it isn't sin, right?

"save myself"!!! Why don't you answer a question. If I'm drowning and Jesus hold's His hand out to me and says "Take My Hand" and I obey Him and "DO" as He instructs, did I save myself or did Jesus save me?

Of course you will not answer.

And when you fall into sin, you just keep on repenting and ask for God's mercy. In that way, you can keep yourself saved.

Again, if Jesus holds out His Hand and says "take My hand" and I do, but in a storm I lose the grip and fall, if He still has His Hand, the Same Hand, the same instruction to "Take it" reaching for me, and I take it again as He instructs, am I saving myself or did He save me?

Of course you won't answer.

It's just like in the days of Moses, in the old covenant, only this time, there was no need for repeated animal sacrifices. So, you need to keep the whole Law, no different from how the Jews were required to live.

It's not my fault your preachers haven't taught you about the "ADDED" Levitical Priesthood and the Prophesies regarding it's change. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time didn't get it either. But Zechariahs and Simeon did.

It seems to me, you are practically a Jew who have Jesus as your teacher or your "Moses", and your once and for all atoning sacrifice for your sin.

Woops, you almost messed up here and actually said something true. "ALMOST". Here, let me help you by correcting your statement.

"It seems to me, you are practically a Jew who has Jesus as your teacher and atoning sacrifice for your sin."

Now there is the truth.

Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

It seems to me that you are then under the Law that God gave to Moses as written in scriptures, except for the laws for the atonement of sin and circumcision.

Yes, God's Definition of sin or His Righteous Judgments didn't change. And the Priesthood still exists as Jesus is now our High Priest. And we still bring our offering to Him as God instructed Moses. But your preachers don't teach you about that either. Paul does though.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies (Free will offering) a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world (Or it's religions) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You wouldn't know anything about that.

Circumcision of the Heart is still a requirement of the Christ of the Bible as well. It's also called "Denying ones self". But you wouldn't know anything about that either.

Duet. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

And for that, then you are not under grace. For it could not be both. It's either you are under grace or under Law. And you prefer to be under Law, as does the Jews who rejected the grace that is in Christ.

That is the modern mainstream preaching to be sure, as it was with the disobedient Jews. But I don't prescribe to your religion, or theirs. I follow the instructions of the Only One who can save me from death.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.[/color]

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, (Not the Catholic Church or Jewish religion) and he shall lift you up.

So once again, it is the inspired Word of God which tells me who God gives His Grace and Mercy to. Who to humble myself to, whose Hand to take hold of. And like Eve, there are "other voices" out there who teach to reject God's Laws because they make you blind and burdened. He is the father of lies, don't listen to him. My Faith is in the Christ.

Please tell us, how do you see the death of Jesus Christ in relation to your salvation?

The Bible says Jesus qualified to be the "Unblemished Lamb" because of His sinless Life. Yes, a bunch of self righteous self proclaimed "children of God" murdered Him because He was righteous and they were not. But because of His Life, God raised Him from the dead. His Blood washed away my sins, but I am saved by His Life, "IF" I continue in His Goodness, otherwise I too, like the fake believers of His Time, will be cut off. At least this is what the Bible teaches.

Rom. 10:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

How do you see the resurrection of Jesus Christ in relation to your salvation?

He overcame sin in this world and God raised Him from the dead. With His help, if I trust Him (Faith) I too can overcome and "Attain to the resurrection of the dead".

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, (Hold my hand out) and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (Take my Hand) I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev. 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

This is the same message the Christ, who doesn't change, gave to Cain, only Cain didn't believe.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.(Overcome)

For what purpose/s do you get from scriptures as to why the Word have to come down from heaven and dwell on earth, and become flesh in the person of Jesus Christ?

To become the perfect human and offer Himself to God to pay for the sins of the People. And to take away the Priesthood from those who corrupted it, and become our High Priest.

Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Jer. 5:26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.

27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.

28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;

31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Don't run away from my questions.

[Michael2012]

There is almost never an issue with Jesus being our Savior. The problem comes with Jesus being our Lord.  That is where the rubber meets the road.  At least that is the problem that I face every day.

I agree. But Jesus being our Lord is a different matter from being our Savior. That's where many seems to get entangled with when it comes to salvation. Jesus being our Lord somehow had become to them a stumbling block in understanding the gospel of the grace of God.

[Michael2012]

The question remains. A very direct and simple question any honest Christian can answer. Quoting scriptures which obviously does not and cannot answer for you the question that demands your personal response, as a way to evade answering such simple questions is really telling about your character and person.

You are the perfect example of the following scriptures.

Luke 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?

32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

If I answer your questions with my words, then you imply I am just reflecting the opinion of a self righteous man. If I answer your questions with God's Word which show the true answer from my heart, then I am evading the question. If you were honest, you would admit there isn't anything I can say that you would agree with, unless I submit to your religion.

No sir. Questions that demands a personal answer, like "do you believe in Jesus Christ?", can't be answered using scriptures GB. And if you answered yes to that, I would certainly agree with you. So you see, it's not a matter of you or me submitting to one's religion, but agreeing on what is true and what is good.

Now to bring you back to the issue of this segment, the question that remains for you to answer is, and I quote:

So, you believe that every time you break even a single commandment, you are not only guilty of breaking that, but guilty of breaking all. So, do you ask for forgiveness for that single transgression or for breaking all?

Again, direct and simple questions such as this one, never fails to have you running away, with the false claim that you have already answered it, and that even saying, with scriptures, when such a question demands a personal response from you, which scriptures cannot do for you. And I am not playing any game here GB. I don't play around when what I'm dealing with concerns the truth and God. Do you?

I did already answer it. You asked;

Do you believe in Romans 10:4? Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I answered honestly and from the heart.

"Yes, I believe this verse along with all others as well. I don't need to look any further than Jesus to know what the perfect man of God is. And like Paul, I will spend the rest of my life "pressing toward to Mark".

Philippians 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."

So again, you ask the question and I answered it from my heart. Now you are lying to everyone on this forum by saying I didn't answer your question. What you would say if you were honest, is that you just don't agree with my answer. But you can't do that because that would mean you don't agree with Paul who mirrors by belief. You are way to cleaver and subtle to do that in front of other men.

You here even mislead the readers of this thread and try to deceive them into believing that you answered and that I lied when I said you didn't answer your question. For that is not the question referred to in this segment that I said you have not answered. Let me quote it for you and perhaps, you can answer this very simple question:

Also, may I know if you preach that when you broke a commandment/law and you sinned, you won't be saved if you happen to die without having repented and ask God for mercy?

Again here, a direct and simple question have you running away, with the false claim that you have already answered it, and that even saying, with scriptures, when such a question demands a personal response from you, which scriptures cannot do for you.

Again, you don't believe the scriptures, so you can't use them to express your belief. But I do, with all my heart. To you, the Bible is just buffet of one liners that you can pick from to justify certain religious doctrines. To me, God's Word's are Spirit, and they are Life, and they direct my footsteps because I have submitted to them. Paul explains the belief from my heart perfectly in the answer I gave you.

"12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,"

The scriptures does not speak for anyone's heart. For scriptures comes from God and is about the things of the Spirit of God and does not come from the mouth of any man, but from God. If a question demands a personal answer, it must necessarily come from you and not elsewhere. Whether your answer is in agreement with scriptures or not, that has to be examined.

Of course, the rest of what you say here (scriptures quoted not included) are of no value and irrelevant to the issue under consideration. And the issue is this question which is left unanswered, and I quote:

Do you believe in yourself that you are able to not break a single commandment/law of God within the day? If in case you say you are able to do that, for how long do you see yourself to be able to keep up with that and not sin?

And yet again here, direct and simple questions such as this one, never fails to have you running away, with the false claim that you have already answered it, and that even saying, with scriptures, when such a question demands a personal response from you, which scriptures cannot do for you.

That is your religion, your belief, not mine, or Paul's. Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

The issue and question referred to here, and I quote:

So you believe that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. What does "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" means to you?

That is what you must address instead.

So be it then, that's what is "the righteousness which is of the law" is for you. And that makes you to be in err.

Scriptures exposes the error.

Romans 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."

Like I said, the Bible to you is a collection of bumper stickers you choose from to justify a certain religious doctrine. In this case the lie you are trying to further is that the Pharisees were trying get the Galatians to obey God for justification of sins. But if you respected the Christ of the Bible enough to humble yourself to His inspired Words you wouldn't preach this heresy as Paul clearly explains, not with His own words, but from Scriptures.

Rom. 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Now, you resort to your straw man tactic again. It doesn't work each and every time you use that to divert the issue. Such only is a very strong indication that you can't accept and face your error in your take of what "the righteousness which is of the law" is that Paul is referring to.

[Texas Conservative]

author=Michael2012 link=topic=104892.msg1055151079#msg1055151079 date=1573093523]

So, Jesus is your savior, only if you deny yourself and follow Him. That sounds good.

I posted what the Christ teaches Michael. I never said, implied, suggested in any way that I save myself and you know it. This is just another in a long line of falsehoods you preach. But hey, if you don't think lying is a sin, then to you it isn't sin, right?

"save myself"!!! Why don't you answer a question. If I'm drowning and Jesus hold's His hand out to me and says "Take My Hand" and I obey Him and "DO" as He instructs, did I save myself or did Jesus save me?

Of course you will not answer.

Again, if Jesus holds out His Hand and says "take My hand" and I do, but in a storm I lose the grip and fall, if He still has His Hand, the Same Hand, the same instruction to "Take it" reaching for me, and I take it again as He instructs, am I saving myself or did He save me?

Of course you won't answer.


It's not my fault your preachers haven't taught you about the "ADDED" Levitical Priesthood and the Prophesies regarding it's change. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time didn't get it either. But Zechariahs and Simeon did.


Woops, you almost messed up here and actually said something true. "ALMOST". Here, let me help you by correcting your statement.

"It seems to me, you are practically a Jew who has Jesus as your teacher and atoning sacrifice for your sin."

Now there is the truth.

Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Yes, God's Definition of sin or His Righteous Judgments didn't change. And the Priesthood still exists as Jesus is now our High Priest. And we still bring our offering to Him as God instructed Moses. But your preachers don't teach you about that either. Paul does though.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies (Free will offering) a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world (Or it's religions) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You wouldn't know anything about that.

Circumcision of the Heart is still a requirement of the Christ of the Bible as well. It's also called "Denying ones self". But you wouldn't know anything about that either.

Duet. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:


That is the modern mainstream preaching to be sure, as it was with the disobedient Jews. But I don't prescribe to your religion, or theirs. I follow the instructions of the Only One who can save me from death.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.[/color]

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, (Not the Catholic Church or Jewish religion) and he shall lift you up.

So once again, it is the inspired Word of God which tells me who God gives His Grace and Mercy to. Who to humble myself to, whose Hand to take hold of. And like Eve, there are "other voices" out there who teach to reject God's Laws because they make you blind and burdened. He is the father of lies, don't listen to him. My Faith is in the Christ.

The Bible says Jesus qualified to be the "Unblemished Lamb" because of His sinless Life. Yes, a bunch of self righteous self proclaimed "children of God" murdered Him because He was righteous and they were not. But because of His Life, God raised Him from the dead. His Blood washed away my sins, but I am saved by His Life, "IF" I continue in His Goodness, otherwise I too, like the fake believers of His Time, will be cut off. At least this is what the Bible teaches.

Rom. 10:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

He overcame sin in this world and God raised Him from the dead. With His help, if I trust Him (Faith) I too can overcome and "Attain to the resurrection of the dead".

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, (Hold my hand out) and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (Take my Hand) I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev. 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

This is the same message the Christ, who doesn't change, gave to Cain, only Cain didn't believe.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.(Overcome)

To become the perfect human and offer Himself to God to pay for the sins of the People. And to take away the Priesthood from those who corrupted it, and become our High Priest.

Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Jer. 5:26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.

27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.

28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;

31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Don't run away from my questions.

GB, if you believed God's Word you would agree with me, for I agree with God.  Since you do not agree with me, you obviously do not agree with God's Word.

[Michael2012]

author=Michael2012 link=topic=104892.msg1055151079#msg1055151079 date=1573093523]

So, Jesus is your savior, only if you deny yourself and follow Him. That sounds good.

And I can gather from your other posts that He saves you by way of His preaching/teaching you through scriptures, how you can save yourself, that is, by your obedience and keeping of all God's commandments/Laws and by humbling yourself.

I posted what the Christ teaches Michael. I never said, implied, suggested in any way that I save myself and you know it. This is just another in a long line of falsehoods you preach. But hey, if you don't think lying is a sin, then to you it isn't sin, right?

"save myself"!!! Why don't you answer a question. If I'm drowning and Jesus hold's His hand out to me and says "Take My Hand" and I obey Him and "DO" as He instructs, did I save myself or did Jesus save me?

Of course you will not answer.

Of course I will answer. We are different in this aspect.

That's good, now that you cleared that up here. So you are not saying that you save yourself. I thought you are saying that, as per what I gather in your posts. But that is clear now to me. And I will take note of that. Though, your "drowning" example there seems to say otherwise.

You asked "if you don't think lying is a sin, then to you it isn't sin, right?" NO. Lying is sin, as murder is sin, whether you know it is or not.

You asked "If I'm drowning and Jesus hold's His hand out to me and says "Take My Hand" and I obey Him and "DO" as He instructs, did I save myself or did Jesus save me?"

Jesus did. But then, that is not even close to the salvation of God. Consider this instead. If you are drowning, you in all likelihood is in panic, and naturally is disoriented and are not in control and cannot control what it is you do as you drown. You are very very much naturally busy trying to get some air in every which way you can, that you wouldn't and couldn't practically hear someone's voice, much less respond to what they say. Simply put, you wanted to live but can't do anything to save yourself from drowning. Totally helpless, and very much preoccupied. Now God who is rich in mercy, love, and grace, wanted to save you that He sent Jesus Christ to rescue you and get you out of the water and willingly does that. And Jesus does so by and on His own. He need not depend on your actions to save you, for He knows more than you know that you are helpless and preoccupied. He not only got you out of the water by and on His own. He also restores you and cleans you up, and do to you all that is needed to present you pleasing to God. This part, since you had been taken out of the water, you are now able to participate in this, as you must and is required to.

And when you fall into sin, you just keep on repenting and ask for God's mercy. In that way, you can keep yourself saved.

Again, if Jesus holds out His Hand and says "take My hand" and I do, but in a storm I lose the grip and fall, if He still has His Hand, the Same Hand, the same instruction to "Take it" reaching for me, and I take it again as He instructs, am I saving myself or did He save me?

Of course you won't answer.

I repeat, of course I will answer. As I pointed out, we are different in this aspect.

The answer to your question is Jesus saved you. But then your example there, as I pointed out, is not even close to the salvation of God. Please refer to my discussion in the segment above.

It's just like in the days of Moses, in the old covenant, only this time, there was no need for repeated animal sacrifices. So, you need to keep the whole Law, no different from how the Jews were required to live.

It's not my fault your preachers haven't taught you about the "ADDED" Levitical Priesthood and the Prophesies regarding it's change. The mainstream preachers of Christ's time didn't get it either. But Zechariahs and Simeon did.

Nobody is saying that it's your fault or what. That is not the issue here. I am just pointing, as per my understanding of your religion and your salvation, that you need to keep the whole Law, like the Jews, who tried and failed.

In the other parts of your other posts, you speak of humbling yourself. But don't you know that one who truly humbles himself to God is to accept that he is not able to perfectly and continuously keep the whole Law, not that God gave Laws and commandments that are impossible to keep, but that we are weak in the flesh and needs for God to save us. If one can't accept that truth, he can never truly be humble to God.

It seems to me, you are practically a Jew who have Jesus as your teacher or your "Moses", and your once and for all atoning sacrifice for your sin.

Woops, you almost messed up here and actually said something true. "ALMOST". Here, let me help you by correcting your statement.

"It seems to me, you are practically a Jew who has Jesus as your teacher and atoning sacrifice for your sin."

Now there is the truth.

Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

But I did not say you are a Jew, only "practically" a Jew. There is difference to that. So make no mistake.

It seems to me that you are then under the Law that God gave to Moses as written in scriptures, except for the laws for the atonement of sin and circumcision.

Yes, God's Definition of sin or His Righteous Judgments didn't change. And the Priesthood still exists as Jesus is now our High Priest. And we still bring our offering to Him as God instructed Moses. But your preachers don't teach you about that either. Paul does though.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies (Free will offering) a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world (Or it's religions) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You wouldn't know anything about that.

Circumcision of the Heart is still a requirement of the Christ of the Bible as well. It's also called "Denying ones self". But you wouldn't know anything about that either.

Duet. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

You said "And we still bring our offering to Him as God instructed Moses." So, are you saying that you still offer to God as to atone for your sins as Moses instructed? Romans 12:1-2 (with or without you inserts) doesn't speak of offerings for that purpose but as it says "reasonable service".

You said "Circumcision of the Heart is still a requirement of the Christ of the Bible as well." And here as always, you mistake and misunderstand scriptures. First, the phrase "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart" obviously isn't literal. As when one is circumcised in the flesh is done not by the one who gets to be circumcised, but by another. The same goes with the circumcision of the heart.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

And for that, then you are not under grace. For it could not be both. It's either you are under grace or under Law. And you prefer to be under Law, as does the Jews who rejected the grace that is in Christ.

That is the modern mainstream preaching to be sure, as it was with the disobedient Jews. But I don't prescribe to your religion, or theirs. I follow the instructions of the Only One who can save me from death.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.[/color]

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, (Not the Catholic Church or Jewish religion) and he shall lift you up.

So once again, it is the inspired Word of God which tells me who God gives His Grace and Mercy to. Who to humble myself to, whose Hand to take hold of. And like Eve, there are "other voices" out there who teach to reject God's Laws because they make you blind and burdened. He is the father of lies, don't listen to him. My Faith is in the Christ.

There is nothing you said there that relates to what I said, that you then are not under grace, but under Law, as do the Jews. For it could not be both. It's either you are under grace or under Law. And you prefer to be under Law, as does the Jews who rejected the grace that is in Christ.

Please tell us, how do you see the death of Jesus Christ in relation to your salvation?

The Bible says Jesus qualified to be the "Unblemished Lamb" because of His sinless Life. Yes, a bunch of self righteous self proclaimed "children of God" murdered Him because He was righteous and they were not. But because of His Life, God raised Him from the dead. His Blood washed away my sins, but I am saved by His Life, "IF" I continue in His Goodness, otherwise I too, like the fake believers of His Time, will be cut off. At least this is what the Bible teaches.

Rom. 10:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

First, I have to correct you. It's not Romans 10:10 but Romans 5:10

You said "But because of His Life, God raised Him from the dead." Jesus resurrected because it was not possible that He should be held by it (Acts2:24).

Did Christ wash away your sins because of anything you've done or by your good works that you've done? I hope you realize that Jesus shed His blood for the sin of the world, even while we were yet sinners, as is intimated in Romans 5:10

But there is more in Romans 5:10, which indeed tells us an important truth ~ that by Christ's death, we were reconciled, and by His Life, we shall be saved.

How do you see the resurrection of Jesus Christ in relation to your salvation?

He overcame sin in this world and God raised Him from the dead. With His help, if I trust Him (Faith) I too can overcome and "Attain to the resurrection of the dead".

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, (Hold my hand out) and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (Take my Hand) I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev. 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

This is the same message the Christ, who doesn't change, gave to Cain, only Cain didn't believe.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.(Overcome)

To become the perfect human and offer Himself to God to pay for the sins of the People. And to take away the Priesthood from those who corrupted it, and become our High Priest.

Is. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Jer. 5:26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.

27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.

28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;

31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Don't run away from my questions.

What questions? I see none in this segment GB. Besides I don't get what is your point in all of what you said there and don't see how that answers my question.

The question is: How do you see the resurrection of Jesus Christ in relation to your salvation?

Anyway, I'll point you to some scriptures that gives the answer to the question.

Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

There Paul is referring to the resurrected Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

[RB]

There is so much to deal with in your post that it is hard to know where to begin. 

4WD, it would have been nice to see you start where I started with you, in explaining the new birth per Jesus' words from John 3:8. But instead, you give your personal conviction that is unsupported by God's testimony, and I might add, a description that even Jesus was unfamiliar with since he made  "no" reference to as he explained what he meant by using the phrase born again.

Your serious error is this: you equate being "born OF God" and born again as TWO different doctrines when the scriptures make them ONE and THE SAME! 4WD your understanding of being born again does not answers Nicodemus' question "how can these things be" SINCE IF he could return back into his mothers womb and be born according to Jesus' very own words such one would STILL BE FLESH and that does not constitute the new birth ACCORDING to the word of God, WITHIN THE CONTEXT of John 3:1-8~only in your understanding it may, but not according to the teaching of Jesus Christ to Nicodemus. If you did not follow what I just said, please read this again, for according to what you think consitudes the new birth, Jesus said otherwise. You said:

Thus Jesus is saying, without any confusion, that the spirit, our spirits, come from God.

You are the first person that I have ever heard say that to be born again means that our spirits at conception is born of God, thus that is when we are BORN OF GOD Again, God uses born of God and born again as ONE and the same event! Strange indeed that YOU use born OF God and born AGAIN as two separate events! I see later in your post you try to separate them to support your doctrine, yet God's word does not separate born OF God and born AGAIN as two separate events, only you do to give credentials to your false doctrine. 

You reject that since you claim that your [fallen] spirit came from your parents.  RB, that is wrong. And that is at the heart of why so much of your soteriology is wrong.

I can say the same to you, 4WD~the ONLY REASON you hold to such a strange doctrine is that you must come up with something that rejects human depravity from our mother's womb, so you (someone) invented such a strange understanding of the new birth.

So, this leads me to ask you "how is one born AGAIN after they sin for the first time in time?" And do such sinners fall under condemnation when they sin for the first time? and at what age does this happen? You see where all this leads people into believing in many lies after they have accepted a false doctrine, a flood gate of false teachings follows such a strange doctrine. I knew that you believe this, just have never addressed it.

When we come into this world we come with body and spirit. The body, the flesh, comes from our parents; The spirit comes from God (Gen 2:7; Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7).  RB that is the fundamental difference between you and your pet dog (if you have a pet dog).  It is the difference between man and the rest of the brute animal kingdom.

We both have spirits, the spirit IS the life of us and the lower animals creation of this world~the different being that man was created after God's image and that image consists in KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING and WISDOM and RIGHTEOUSNESS! 4WD, this is what we lost when Adam fell into disobedience. We (man) became in bondage to sin, and the Devil, and by nature, we are his servant being children of disobedience UNABLE to free ourselves. Adam took on the image of Satan and became enmity against God and righteousness, truth and true knowledge, etc. etc. We can be born a thousand times over of the flesh, and still come out from Adam FLESH, which in the word of God is at enmity against him, sinful and wicked at the very core from feet unto the head, there is NO GOOD in the flesh.

Romans 8:3-9~"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The FLESH in the word of God IS SINFUL as it comes from our mother's womb~for man LOST God's image when the Devil deceived our first parents (mainly Eve) in the garden of Eden through his subtility.

Jesus reiterates this very important feature of mankind.  He said, "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit"; the spirit is born of Spirit and that from birth.

Not even close to being the truth.  I'll come back to this point and start another thread since to answer you properly would take a few words which would make this post too long for the average person. RB

[4WD]

Again, so much that is wrong in your post that it is tough to deal with.  But I am convinced of the basic problem.  You sincerely believe that our spirits originally come from our parents.

4WD, it would have been nice to see you start where I started with you, in explaining the new birth per Jesus' words from John 3:8.

In point of fact, I actually did really start with an explanation of the new birth per Jesus' words from John 3.  Concerning verse 8, I had already discussed that briefly in reply #131 to Michael.

Your serious error is this: you equate being "born OF God" and born again as TWO different doctrines when the scriptures make them ONE and THE SAME!

That is not strictly true.  Our spirits are not born of flesh at birth as you believe.  Our spirits are born of God at birth. Our spirits at some point in life then become dead in our own trespasses and sins. In the new birth our spirits, born of God at, or before,  birth which become dead in our own trespasses and sins, are then born again of God. 

RB your believing that our spirits originally come from our parents flies in the face of Jesus' own words; Jesus said "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" (John 3:6); But you continue to insist that our spirits are born of flesh. THEY ARE NOT; IF IT IS BORN OF FLESH, THEN IT IS FLESH  --  PERIOD. RB, if it is born of flesh it cannot be spirit.

4WD your understanding of being born again does not answers Nicodemus' question "how can these things be"

But my understanding of being born again does indeed answer Nicodemus' question.  It is you who do not even understand Nicodemus' question.  Nicodemus' question was not about his spirit; his question obviously was about his physical life.  That was why he asked the question, "How can these things be?" (v.9) And that is why Jesus said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? (v.10) That was a reprimand to Nicodemus that as a teacher of Israel he should know the difference between the flesh and the spirit.  He should know that the spirit comes from God.  The OT Scriptures say so (Gen 2:7; Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7).  And that is why Jesus spoke of being born AGAIN. It is the spirit that is born again.  It was born of God at birth and needs to be born again of God.  Why you reject that simple truth is a great mystery to me.

4WD~the ONLY REASON you hold to such a strange doctrine is that you must come up with something that rejects human depravity from our mother's womb, so you (someone) invented such a strange understanding of the new birth.

RB, there is nothing strange about believing that our spirits come from God. God declares that He forms the spirit of man within him (Gen 2:7; Zech 12:1) and that at death it returns to God who gave it (Eccl 12:7). And trust me, the spirit that God forms in each of us is not dead as your false doctrine of Total Depravity requires.

So, this leads me to ask you "how is one born AGAIN after they sin for the first time in time?" And do such sinners fall under condemnation when they sin for the first time? and at what age does this happen? You see where all this leads people into believing in many lies after they have accepted a false doctrine, a flood gate of false teachings follows such a strange doctrine. I knew that you believe this, just have never addressed it. We both have spirits, the spirit IS the life of us and the lower animals creation of this world

You apparently do not quite understand the distinction between the soul and the spirit.  We and the animals are both living souls.  We human beings are given spirits from God, animals are not.

~the different being that man was created after God's image and that image consists in KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING and WISDOM and RIGHTEOUSNESS! 4WD, this is what we lost when Adam fell into disobedience.

Oh my, Oh my, Oh my.  Adam didn't lose KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING and WISDOM when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  He did lose his RIGHTEOUSNESS! And that because he disobeyed God.  He sinned.

4WD, this is what we lost when Adam fell into disobedience.

If we lost anything, it was ONLY access to the Garden and the fruit from the Tree of Life (Gen 3:22-24). That is the ONLY thing we lost.  If you understood what Paul said in Romans 5:12-19 you would understand that.

We (man) became in bondage to sin, and the Devil, and by nature, we are his servant being children of disobedience UNABLE to free ourselves. Adam took on the image of Satan and became enmity against God and righteousness, truth and true knowledge, etc. etc. We can be born a thousand times over of the flesh, and still come out from Adam FLESH, which in the word of God is at enmity against him, sinful and wicked at the very core from feet unto the head, there is NO GOOD in the flesh. The FLESH in the word of God IS SINFUL as it comes from our mother's womb~for man LOST God's image when the Devil deceived our first parents (mainly Eve) in the garden of Eden through his subtility. Not even close to being the truth.  I'll come back to this point and start another thread since to answer you properly would take a few words which would make this post too long for the average person. RB

All of that is a construct of Calvinism, or if you prefer Augustinianism or Reformed Theology.  IT IS FALSE; IT IS WRONG. It denies the truth that the spirit of man, every man, comes originally from God.  And in doing so, it completely distorts God's word and invents an entirely screwed up theology to go along with it.  That distortion is TULIP.

[GB]

 author=Michael2012 link=topic=104892.msg1055151120#msg1055151120 date=1573177496]

No sir. Questions that demands a personal answer, like "do you believe in Jesus Christ?", can't be answered using scriptures GB. And if you answered yes to that, I would certainly agree with you. So you see, it's not a matter of you or me submitting to one's religion, but agreeing on what is true and what is good.

satan believes in Jesus Christ. So the question would reveal nothing. Every self proclaimed "Christian" on the planet claims to "believe in Jesus Christ", Judas believed in Jesus Christ. So if I were asked the question, it would have to be more than a yes or no answer. I would ask, which Jesus?. The one created by religions of the world with long flowing hair, and perfect profile? The Jesus who was born on Dec. 25th, died late Friday evening and rose Sunday morning before sunrise? I would say that NO, I don't believe in that Jesus. But if you were talking about the Word of God, who created Salvation, the Lord of the Sabbath, who became a man. Then I would say "yes" I believe in this Jesus.

So it is about submitting to this religion or that religion. Listening to God VS listening to the "other voices" who have always been against God's instructions. This is why I posted this thread, so those who are interested in God's definition of "what is true and what is good" can have an honest discussion about what "Works of the Law" the Jews were trying to burden the Galatians with. Not according to ancient religious traditions, but according to the "Word of God", all of them.

You asked "So you believe that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. What does "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" means to you?

I answered.

"Yes, I believe this verse along with all others as well. (And this verse means to me) I don't need to look any further than Jesus to know what the perfect man of God is. And like Paul, I will spend the rest of my life "pressing toward to Mark".

Then you said I didn't answer the question which is an untruth. Are you smoking pot?

Now to bring you back to the issue of this segment, the question that remains for you to answer is, and I quote:

"So, you believe that every time you break even a single commandment, you are not only guilty of breaking that, but guilty of breaking all. So, do you ask for forgiveness for that single transgression or for breaking all?"

The reason why it is so frustrating trying to have a Biblical conversation with you is because you don't really believe the Scriptures, but I do. So I rely on God for my belief. I posted His Inspired Word. And I told you I believe all the scriptures. It IS my belief from the heart.

James 2: 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

So I used an analogy, here is another one. If you are a preacher who doesn't kill, but you steal tithes to give gifts to the woman you are cheating on your wife with, then you are a transgressor of God's Laws who needs repentance.

If you can't grasp this understanding, if you don't understand what James is saying, there is nothing I can do for you.

The scriptures does not speak for anyone's heart. For scriptures comes from God and is about the things of the Spirit of God and does not come from the mouth of any man, but from God. If a question demands a personal answer, it must necessarily come from you and not elsewhere. Whether your answer is in agreement with scriptures or not, that has to be examined.

The Scriptures do not speak for your heart, but they do for mine.

Of course, the rest of what you say here (scriptures quoted not included) are of no value and irrelevant to the issue under consideration. And the issue is this question which is left unanswered, and I quote:

Yes, you have made it abundantly clear, only those verses you can use to promote your ancient religious traditions are used by you. The rest are "Irrelevant". But Jesus said "Man shall LIVE by Every Word of God", at least the Jesus of the Bible did.

Once again we go in circles chasing your tail. You are a master at misdirection and deflection. You and the Pharisees with your "Gotcha" questions.

"Also, may I know if you preach that when you broke a commandment/law and you sinned, you won't be saved if you happen to die without having repented and ask God for mercy?"

You err not knowing the scriptures.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If you want to preach that the Jews were trying to get the Galatians to Love God and Love their neighbor as themselves, and all that hangs on them, for justification of sin, you are free to do so.

But I'm sticking with the Word's of God.

[GB]

GB, if you believed God's Word you would agree with me, for I agree with God.  Since you do not agree with me, you obviously do not agree with God's Word.

I know, isn't it amazing. The Pope says the exact same thing. Fortunately for me, my Faith is in the God of the Bible and not you or the Pope. I'll let His Word judge me.

But thanks for your heart warming and edifying contribution to this Biblical discussion.

[seekingHiswisdom]

I know, isn't it amazing. The Pope says the exact same thing. Fortunately for me, my Faith is in the God of the Bible and not you or the Pope. I'll let His Word judge me.

But thanks for your heart warming and edifying contribution to this Biblical discussion.

No, what is amazing is that your claim is that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

"Fortunately for me, my Faith is in the God of the Bible ""I'll let His Word judge me"

It would appear HE already has, AND had led YOU to GC where you can learn.

[GB]

 author=Michael2012 link=topic=104892.msg1055151122#msg1055151122 date=1573188730]

You asked "If I'm drowning and Jesus hold's His hand out to me and says "Take My Hand" and I obey Him and "DO" as He instructs, did I save myself or did Jesus save me?"

Jesus did. But then, that is not even close to the salvation of God. Consider this instead. If you are drowning, you in all likelihood is in panic, and naturally is disoriented and are not in control and cannot control what it is you do as you drown. You are very very much naturally busy trying to get some air in every which way you can, that you wouldn't and couldn't practically hear someone's voice, much less respond to what they say. Simply put, you wanted to live but can't do anything to save yourself from drowning. Totally helpless, and very much preoccupied. Now God who is rich in mercy, love, and grace, wanted to save you that He sent Jesus Christ to rescue you and get you out of the water and willingly does that. And Jesus does so by and on His own. He need not depend on your actions to save you, for He knows more than you know that you are helpless and preoccupied. He not only got you out of the water by and on His own. He also restores you and cleans you up, and do to you all that is needed to present you pleasing to God. This part, since you had been taken out of the water, you are now able to participate in this, as you must and is required to.

That all sounds very pretty, and who wouldn't throw a few bucks in the collection plate on a sermon like that? But what you ignore, is that Jesus gave us instructions. You teach He didn't, that He, in His Long Flowing perfect hair,  just swoops down and carries you off into the promise land. But He leaves the next guy to drown because? Wait, why would He save you, and leave the next guy whose calling Him Lord, Lord drown? Why are you more important than the other guy who calls Him Lord Lord?

But that's the way it is in the religions of the land Michael. You are always the one who is convinced you are saved, just like Eve, it's always the other guy who Jesus let's drown.

Being deceived means believing something that is not true. Christ's Word is the only for sure Truth. At least this is my heart felt belief.

The Jews were rejected because they disobeyed God over and over no matter who He sent to warn them, no matter what His Son did for them, they continued to refuse to obey Him. Not Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs, Simeon, Anna, and the rest of the Faithful, but the Mainstream God of Abraham preachers of their time refused to believe in Him enough to OBEY Him.

It is the Christ's instruction that I am promoting on this forum. He tells me who is saved and who isn't. Religious men have been refusing His Word since Cain, so it is no surprise that "Many" don't believe Him. But I do.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Not free from God's instructions as your preaching implies, but free from the deception that grips man through religion.

Nobody is saying that it's your fault or what. That is not the issue here. I am just pointing, as per my understanding of your religion and your salvation, that you need to keep the whole Law, like the Jews, who tried and failed.

It is a lie, which even you admitted is a sin against God, to teach that the Jews were trying to "keep the whole law". It is a false teaching, it corrupts the Word's of the Christ Himself and makes them vain, it is an insidious lie that has been promoted by religions of this land for centuries. Zechariahs was, Abraham was, Simeon was, but not the Pharisees. Until you "deny yourself" and your religion, and come to terms with this lie you are furthering, and "stop Furthering it"then you are just another Pharisee in a sea of Pharisees.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God as you falsely preach)

The Jews were not trying to keep, teaching, or furthering the "Whole Law". Please stop telling lies about God, it won't end well for you if you continue.

In the other parts of your other posts, you speak of humbling yourself.

Again, another subtle, cleaver lie. I post the Word's of the inspired Word of God that teaches me to "humble myself". His Word says to "humble myself".

Heb. 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

It is not my teaching to submit our self to God, it is His. I just believe it.

But don't you know that one who truly humbles himself to God is to accept that he is not able to perfectly and continuously keep the whole Law, not that God gave Laws and commandments that are impossible to keep, but that we are weak in the flesh and needs for God to save us. If one can't accept that truth, he can never truly be humble to God.

If I live after the Flesh, then yes, I am weak in the flesh. But if I submit myself to God and His Word, and deny my flesh, there is power. If I live after His Word which HE said was Spirit, and Life, then He will help me to over come sin, just as He lived after His Father's Word's and He overcame sin. At least this is what the Christ of the Bible teaches.

But most just don't believe this because the religions of the land don't teach it. This is why they can teach to outright reject some of His Commandments, and they are not even bothered by it, just like the Pharisees outright rejected His Commandment and their conscience was clear as well. "seared with a hot iron". It's not that way when His Word is written on your heart.

Duet. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

You said "And we still bring our offering to Him as God instructed Moses." So, are you saying that you still offer to God as to atone for your sins as Moses instructed? Romans 12:1-2 (with or without you inserts) doesn't speak of offerings for that purpose but as it says "reasonable service".

The atonement Laws the Christ gave to Moses were a shadow of the Christ's Salvation plan. As is your custom you did not consider "every Word" here, but only those that can be used to further your religion, which this verse clearly contradicts.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Just as the people were to take their prized possession, the best of their flock, and delivered it to the Priest for him to do are His God prescribed, and just as Jesus offered Himself, perfect, sinless, to God for Him to do are He pleased, so we are to offer our most prized possessions, self, pride, freewill, thoughts, our most private thoughts to God for His cleansing Blood to purify. For Christ IS the LIGHT in this darkness.

But men, because they want eternal life but don't want to pay the "cost" Jesus spoke of, work to find another way. And the Path is Broad, and "MANY" are on it.

Jesus spoke of this.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

In other words, as it is written in another way.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So whether Jesus makes us obey, or we, through trust and faith in Him humble our self to obey, either way, the end result is a man who obeys God. This is why Jesus said "Ye shall know them by their fruits".

You said "Circumcision of the Heart is still a requirement of the Christ of the Bible as well." And here as always, you mistake and misunderstand scriptures. First, the phrase "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart" obviously isn't literal. As when one is circumcised in the flesh is done not by the one who gets to be circumcised, but by another. The same goes with the circumcision of the heart.

Oh I understand, and you are right about it not being literal. That was my point. But your implication that God swoops down and "circumcises my heart" while I'm being stubborn or disobedient is foolishness. We go to the High Priest and offer our self to Him. That's our part. And He removes the Fleshy, sinful, stubbornness from our heart. But if we don't submit to Him, circumcision doesn't even matter. As Paul said;

1 Cor. 19:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So once again, it is the inspired Word of God which tells me who God gives His Grace and Mercy to. Who to humble myself to, whose Hand to take hold of. And like Eve, there are "other voices" out there who teach to reject God's Laws because they make you blind and burdened. He is the father of lies, don't listen to him. My Faith is in the Christ.

There is nothing you said there that relates to what I said, that you then are not under grace, but under Law, as do the Jews. For it could not be both. It's either you are under grace or under Law. And you prefer to be under Law, as does the Jews who rejected the grace that is in Christ.

I don't think you understand what "under the law" means.

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Did Christ wash away your sins because of anything you've done or by your good works that you've done? I hope you realize that Jesus shed His blood for the sin of the world, even while we were yet sinners, as is intimated in Romans 5:10

Christ's Blood doesn't save everyone. In the examples He had written for our admonition, only those who took the Blood and followed His instructions were saved. The Blood by itself does not save you. You must first "Take the Blood". This part is missing from your religion, as it was from the Mainstream preachers of Christ's time. So to answer your question, I believe that if I take His Blood (LIFE), that was shed from the foundation of the world, and follow His instructions regarding it, I shall be saved. If I try to find another way, I'm not sure. I have Faith that Jesus knew what He was talking about when He gave me instructions on how ANY MAN can "come to Him".

Also, those who were saved from the plagues of sin by the Blood of the Lamb died in the wilderness afterward. Why?

Paul said;

Rom. 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

[seekingHiswisdom]

@GB

By your admission you are all about the Word.

You hang all your responses on scriptures that fit your needs, rather then by direct replies.

I will reply by scripture in a way you surely will understand.

Proverbs 26:4-5

4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

[GB]

@GB

By your admission you are all about the Word.

You hang all your responses on scriptures that fit your needs, rather then by direct replies.

I will reply by scripture in a way you surely will understand.

Proverbs 26:4-5

4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

So it is folly for me to place my belief and trust in Every scripture, and I am accused by you of using them to fit my own needs.

But you are justified to search through the entire Bible to find scriptures to use to belittle and insult me to fit your own needs.

It's OK "Seeking His Wisdom".

Insults and ridicule have been a tried and tested way to deflect attention away for the topic of controversial subjects for a long time.

It is a controversial topic. Were the Jews trying to teach the Galatians to obey the two greatest Commandments and all that hang on them for justification? Or were they trying to teach them they couldn't be saved unless they brought a turtle dove to the Levite Priest for remission of sins?

You seem long on judgment and short on cause.

[RB]

Michael, my brother, you are casting pearls before a swine, or/and a barking dog! This hairy swine does not see the beauty in the pearls of TRUTH but had rather go and eat the bread crumbs that fall from his master's table better known as Mr. Pharisee!

A barking dog is annoying and very irritating to any sound mind. We are wasting our time dealing with GB~at least 4WD is much more rational in his errors and knows the scriptures a thousand times better than any hairy swine knows.

Matthew 7:6~"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Philippians 3:1-9~"Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

Michael a dog just barks the SAME old BARKING over, and over again. You cannot reason with a dumb dog that just barks and is not good for much more than that. GB fits Philippians 3:1-9 perfectly concerning men who have CONFIDENCE in THEIR FLESH, and say little or almost nothing concerning the obedience and faith of Jesus Christ, yea, they actually reject such teachings!

There's no profit in dealing with such men over a long period of time~we are wasting precious time and energy trying to convince them of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. I'm speaking more of GB, then 4WD. They are NOT of the same spirit, maybe close in some doctrine, but different.   

Michael, do you know "why" Paul called these men dogs? These men who place much confidence in their wicked flesh are "returning to Judaism" JUST as a dog does to his vomit!

2nd Peter 2:22~But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

[seekingHiswisdom]

So it is folly for me to place my belief and trust in Every scripture, and I am accused by you of using them to fit my own needs.

But you are justified to search through the entire Bible to find scriptures to use to belittle and insult me to fit your own needs.

It's OK "Seeking His Wisdom".

Insults and ridicule have been a tried and tested way to deflect attention away for the topic of controversial subjects for a long time.

It is a controversial topic. Were the Jews trying to teach the Galatians to obey the two greatest Commandments and all that hang on them for justification? Or were they trying to teach them they couldn't be saved unless they brought a turtle dove to the Levite Priest for remission of sins?

You seem long on judgment and short on cause.

Wrong. I am not saying it is folly to place belief and trust in Every scripture.

Every regular poster here does that.

But you more often or not will answer a question with a scripture, without explanation. Many times indicating that you seeming do not have the same understanding of one that questioned you.

You lash out at those who disagree with you understanding, but you never attempt to clarify why you believe what you so.

Have you ever once asked some one in disagreement with you ... Why it is they disagree with you?

Yours IS just another way to explain what the meaning of is, is.

Those posting in this thread will tell you I am at odds with a lot of what they post and believe because I read and understand differently then a lot of people, and I can assure you I am at total opposites from you. But I can tell you what I see, understand and why .

Can you? With out just posting scriptures?

It is most important for others to understand and respect you. There are 2 polar opposites posting on here. I will not name them, by this time you know who they are. But these two have respect for each other that we all should aspire to.

[Jaime]

I agree Seekinghiswisdom. If posting scripture quelled all opposition in interpretation of said scripture or brought us to unified interpretation, debates would have long ago ceased.

[GB]

author=seekingHiswisdom link=topic=104892.msg1055151146#msg1055151146 date=1573246478]
Wrong. I am not saying it is folly to place belief and trust in Every scripture.

Every regular poster here does that.

No my friend, they don't. You know this, Jaime knows this, and so do I. This is the foundation of every division in Christianity. Many simply don't believe in Every Word of God.

But you more often or not will answer a question with a scripture, without explanation. Many times indicating that you seeming do not have the same understanding of one that questioned you.

I know what you are saying, but I also post scriptures with my explanations in great detail, and the response is exactly the same. I purposely did it both ways to see which one would prompt a discussion on a few posts. It doesn't seem to matter what the Scriptures say, what anyone says, like Jaime implied, religious traditions are hard to unlearn. Jesus and His Apostles also had a different understanding than the religious leaders of that time as well. I think the only way to know which understanding is right, is to compare it to Every Word of God. In this way, we come to an agreement with God, as opposed to this religious traditions or that.

You lash out at those who disagree with you understanding, but you never attempt to clarify why you believe what you so.

Well I'll have to keep an eye on that, what I noticed is that many folks just read one sentence, then reply as if I didn't say what I said. There are a few who do this almost every post, complaining that they are too long. It is true that I get frustrated though, you are right about that.

Have you ever once asked some one in disagreement with you ... Why it is they disagree with you?

Actually I have. But I must admit, that would be a good approach to do more often. I ask for Scriptural evidence of ones teaching all the time, most simply stop talking when they can't find Scriptures to support their teaching, others just insult or post little one line digs. I've also asked for Biblical evidence that my understanding is wrong, like on this thread, but again, I'm judged as wrong, without even considering the Word's of God that gave me the understanding in the first place.

Yours IS just another way to explain what the meaning of is, is.

In some cases maybe, but there is absolute Biblical Truth. Solid foundational truths. Like for instance, Jesus was the Creator God of the Old Testament. that is Biblical Truth. There are others, like the Pharisees were living in disobedience to God, while Zechariahs and Simeon were living in obedience to God. These are Biblical Truths.

Those posting in this thread will tell you I am at odds with a lot of what they post and believe because I read and understand differently then a lot of people, and I can assure you I am at total opposites from you. But I can tell you what I see, understand and why .

Can you? With out just posting scriptures?

I'm not sure I would want to. It seems a religion in which everyone can create  their own doctrines and traditions has angered God since Cain. It seems to me that is what the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did.

And Paul did say that the one and only Holy Scriptures (Law and Prophets) were able to make me wise unto Salvation which is faith in Christ Jesus. And that they were also profitable for doctrine, for correction, and instruction in righteousness. So that the man of God might be perfect.

Why would I want to further doctrines without Scriptures to prove them? I mean, the things I believe, I believe because of what God said. How can I "take heed" of religious men as Jesus instructed, if I promote religious doctrines that can not be supported by the Word of God?

It is most important for others to understand and respect you. There are 2 polar opposites posting on here. I will not name them, by this time you know who they are. But these two have respect for each other that we all should aspire to.

I appreciate what you are saying, but if I am telling the truth about scriptures, I will not be respected by others. That is a universal truth from the very beginning of the examples God had written for our admonition. And even though this is truth according to Jesus Himself, most folks just don't believe it.

For example.

In this thread I am trying to expose a huge false teaching by prompting folks to have a discussion of scriptures in the hopes that at least one person might actually consider what the Bible teaches about the religious Jews.

The Pharisees, according to Jesus, were children of satan, murderers of those who would submit to God, corrupters and rejecters of His Laws choosing instead to teach for doctrines the commandments of men. Their entire mission, in service to their father, was to turn people away from God's instructions, and towards their own. when they found the ONE perfect man who followed God's Laws perfectly, they murdered Him. These religious zealots had led God's People astray for centuries by rejecting God's Laws, not keeping them like Zechariahs.

And yet, there are entire religions today, who actually preach that these same Pharisees were trying "Earn" Salvation by following God's Law "to the letter", and even more, that they were trying to teach the Galatians to obey "ALL" of God's Laws as well, for the remission of their sins.

So I know the truth about the Pharisees here. And I am sharing it with those on this forum. But those who teach another doctrine will be offended by this truth. If it is true what Jesus says about the Pharisees, and I believe His every Word, then these men will hate me for posting it. There will be no respect from these men. Shall I refuse to speak of these things and others, just to win the respect of folks who don't believe what Jesus taught in the first place? And why would I desire the respect of such people? I'd rather be acceptable to God.

And what if the very reason I'm here, is to show you, or someone on this forum, the truth about the Pharisees and the "works of the Law" they were pushing on the Galatians?

Anyway, I do appreciate your questions and comments. And I will consider them as well. I am learning how to deal with all the different religions and religious doctrines. And I am listening to what you are saying.

Thank you!!

[Jaime]

Jesus said in Mathew 23:3, do what the Pharisees say, but not what they do. In other words they spoke truth or the Law, but didn't practice it. Are we told in what ways their actions perverted what they said?

[Jaime]

In vs 4 they wanted to bind the most onerous interpretation of a Law on others but not themselves.

In vs 5 they did the things they did to be noticed of men.

[Michael2012]

Wrong. I am not saying it is folly to place belief and trust in Every scripture.

Every regular poster here does that.

No my friend, they don't. You know this, Jaime knows this, and so do I. This is the foundation of every division in Christianity. Many simply don't believe in Every Word of God.

I agree with seekingHiswisdom.

What is the matter is not whether he believes scriptures or not, but that, whether he have the right read and understanding of scriptures.

I'm pretty sure all here will say they believe in every word of God in scriptures.

Why one would say they don't, is being conceited.

[Michael2012]

Jesus said in Mathew 23:3, do what the Pharisees say, but not what they do. In other words they spoke truth or the Law, but didn't practice it.

I would want to know what GB have to say to this. It runs counter to his preaching about the Pharisees.

[RB]

No my friend, they don't. You know this, Jaime knows this, and so do I. This is the foundation of every division in Christianity. Many simply don't believe in Every Word of God.

GB, I'm going to answer this one post only to ONCE AGAIN set the record straight as to the differences between you and myself. I fully agree with:

Many simply don't believe in Every Word of God.

By not believing you mean not understanding what they are reading, which is the case with many who are zealous of the scriptures just as you believe you are~I also know and believe that many are in the religious sector of Mystery Babylon who just refuses to accept what the word of God clearly said, and form their own religious beliefs that they exalt above the word of God~per Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; and 2nd Thessalonians 2; and 1st John 2:18, etc.   So, do not think that you stand alone of such things, and most likely even lack the true knowledge of the last days just before the coming of Jesus Christ when as Paul said~"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.", and I'm saying that based on reading many of your post. So, do not take false comfort in believing that you are standing alone of such things as you have mentioned, and TRULY this is NOT our disagreement as I shall prove moving forward in this post.

but I also post scriptures with my explanations in great detail

You are only deceiving your self if you believe this~GB, you are very shallow in your overall understanding of biblical truth and much of what you believe is clear heresy~especially so of the Godhead, which is the litmus test of all Gospel peddlers...this test alone reveals you to be a heretic. 

I purposely did it both ways to see which one would prompt a discussion on a few posts.

I do not believe you were that cunning in your delivery, deceived yes, cunning, not so much.

I think the only way to know which understanding is right, is to compare it to Every Word of God. In this way, we come to an agreement with God, as opposed to this religious traditions or that.

100% in agreement.

I ask for Scriptural evidence of ones teaching all the time, most simply stop talking when they can't find Scriptures to support their teaching, others just insult or post little one line digs. I've also asked for Biblical evidence that my understanding is wrong, like on this thread, but again, I'm judged as wrong, without even considering the Word's of God that gave me the understanding in the first place.

GB, I have never read one line that you posted that I thought I could not answer, never. You as much as any person here uses logical fallacies to avert the thread in the direction your mind has convinced you that you are correct and others are serving the god of this world and its false religion. I will point this out as I go.

but there is absolute Biblical Truth. Solid foundational truths.

Agreed

Jesus was the Creator God of the Old Testament.

ONLY in his deity as God, not as the Son of God! a question for you to answer: Do you believe that in the NT that God was manifest in the flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth?  That Jesus was both God and man in one complex body? Yes, or no? Let us see just how much absolute biblical truth and solid foundational truths you truly believe in~not very much.

There are others, like the Pharisees were living in disobedience to God, while Zechariahs and Simeon were living in obedience to God. These are Biblical Truths.

GB, we ALL agree with that statement, it is just what you add to that is where the disagreement comes in.

I'm not sure I would want to.

I agree with you on this. It would be impossible and unwise to give what one believes without using the word of God, for personal opinions without God's support is useless.

It seems a religion in which everyone can create  their own doctrines and traditions has angered God since Cain. It seems to me that is what the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did.

Agreed

And Paul did say that the one and only Holy Scriptures (Law and Prophets) were able to make me wise unto Salvation which is faith in Christ Jesus. And that they were also profitable for doctrine, for correction, and instruction in righteousness. So that the man of God might be perfect.

Why would I want to further doctrines without Scriptures to prove them? I mean, the things I believe, I believe because of what God said. How can I "take heed" of religious men as Jesus instructed, if I promote religious doctrines that can not be supported by the Word of God?

Again, we agree. Only we would add that the salvation mentioned in this verse (2nd Timothy 3:15-17) has NO REFERENCE to keeping the law and prophets teachings in "order to obtain" eternal life, but that the holy scriptures will make us wise as to the true source of our legal justification before the law of God.

In this thread I am trying to expose a huge false teaching by prompting folks to have a discussion of scriptures in the hopes that at least one person might actually consider what the Bible teaches about the religious Jews.

The Pharisees, according to Jesus, were children of satan, murderers of those who would submit to God, corrupters and rejecters of His Laws choosing instead to teach for doctrines the commandments of men. Their entire mission, in service to their father, was to turn people away from God's instructions, and towards their own. when they found the ONE perfect man who followed God's Laws perfectly, they murdered Him. These religious zealots had led God's People astray for centuries by rejecting God's Laws, not keeping them like Zechariahs.

Two or three things I will point out. Yes, Pharisees overall considered were children of Satan and haters of children of God. That's a biblical truth. But, there were also Pharisees who were zealous for the word of God and outwardly sought to please God by having confidence in their flesh by thinking that they were pleasing to God because they abstain from the OUTWARD ACTS, or did outwards works while they took no notice of their ATTITUDE OF THE HEART and ITS THOUGHTS! They were trusting in their OUTWARD DEEDS performed BY THE ENERGY OF THE FLESH as acts that God would accept them as righteous children. You refuse to acknowledge this~ yet this is EXACTLY what Paul is dealing with in Galatians; Romans 10; Philippians 3, etc. It the same thing that Jesus dealt with in the sermon on the mount in Matthew 5-7 and many other scriptures. 

One more point~you keep mentioning certain righteous men in both the OT and NT as though by THEIR OBEDIENCE God accepted them!  Nothing can be farther from the truth. Such men and women were made righteous BY GRACE based on the truth that they were FIRST chosen IN CHRIST from the foundation of the world and in due time were quicken to life by the power of God based upon the truth that grace was given to them IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world, or else they would have never come to God on their own and lived righteously before God~impossible.

And yet, there are entire religions today, who actually preach that these same Pharisees were trying "Earn" Salvation by following God's Law "to the letter", and even more, that they were trying to teach the Galatians to obey "ALL" of God's Laws as well, for the remission of their sins.

Of course, NO MAN can follow God's law even perfectly with ONE COMMANDMENT, much less all of them. Those with another gospel (they will vary from one thing to the next) is that they believe that man HAS A PART TO DO (or conditions to be met) before one can be saved by Christ! Much like those in Acts 15 where we read:

Acts 15:1~"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Men with another gospel ADDS TO the work of Christ before they think one can be saved from sin and condemnation. It varies from one person to the next, very few said that we are justified by CHRIST ALONE~but they desire to add this, or that, to the redemption secured by Jesus' faith/obedience/righteousness.

So I know the truth about the Pharisees here. And I am sharing it with those on this forum. But those who teach another doctrine will be offended by this truth. If it is true what Jesus says about the Pharisees, and I believe His every Word, then these men will hate me for posting it. There will be no respect from these men. Shall I refuse to speak of these things and others, just to win the respect of folks who don't believe what Jesus taught in the first place? And why would I desire the respect of such people? I'd rather be acceptable to God.

GB, you are just as guilty as the Pharisees! Your gospel is 100% works based upon your obedience that you think you can render unto God in order to be accepted by him on that day!  Our obedience can at best ONLY give evidence that we have been born of God, our very best obedience has sin mixed with it, even our prayers! So, how in the world do you think that God will accept you based upon your obedience?  No one here hates you, I do adamantly reject your gospel of WORKS~but because I'm sinful I do not hate it to the same degree that God does, which only speaks of the weakness of my sinful flesh! Better me to tell us than God on that day!

[GB]

Jesus said in Mathew 23:3, do what the Pharisees say, but not what they do. In other words they spoke truth or the Law, but didn't practice it. Are we told in what ways their actions perverted what they said?

I think it is important to examine everything Jesus said about them. You obviously don't agree with my understanding of them, and you found one verse that may give you support in your disagreement. But I would humbly suggest you read just a little further, and even pay closer attention to the verse you posted.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Moses was the one who told the people what God's Word is. In the Synagogues, the Pharisees and the scribes read God's Word to the people, whose only access to God's Word was these Pharisees.

So if you hear the Word of God, that observe and do. As it is written, "Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts".

But in the very next verse;

4 For they (Not God or His Word) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

And again;

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

And again;

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

And again;

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And again;

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I could, of course, go on. Now this is the tricky part. You believe "In other words they spoke truth or the Law, but didn't practice it".

Now just given these Word's of the Christ Himself that I posted, why would you believe they spoke the truth? They didn't live in the synagogue, they didn't quote God every time they said something.

So wouldn't it be truth to say that when these preachers were reading from the Word of God, like Love your neighbor as yourself, keep God's Sabbath Holy, don't vex the stranger, don't hate your brother in your heart,  do what it says, but don't follow after their religious doctrines and traditions, because they say, but do not.

I would humbly suggest you consider that if the only teaching you ever hear regarding the Pharisees was the Bible, then you and I would be in 100% agreement with Jesus on who the Pharisees were. Because the Bible is pretty clear. I think the only reason you believe differently is because of other religious voices. I don't mean that is a bad way at all, or an insult, or anything like that.

It's just that we are all born into religions, Abram was, Jesus was, Paul was, and we are to. These religious voices have influenced our understanding of scriptures.

This is why, I believe, that Jesus said to "deny our self" when we come to Him. In this way our heart is a clean slate for Him to place His Word's onto as He promised to do in the New Covenant.