Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23

[3 Resurrections]

Hey again robycop3,

Well, we do have one thing in common then.  I've got Mid-western Indian ancestry on my fathers side, though I don't know the percentage.  I went through some young teenage years of voraciously reading books on Indian history and culture, and even had a vague, naive plan to go live among them when I grew up and left home.

But back to "all the tribes of the earth" wailing when they saw Christ's visible return.  Concerning this Rev. 1:7 verse, I spent a lengthy post dedicated to the particular language used in it.  Here's the link if you're at all curious. 

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/'-and-every-eye-shall-see-him'-how-scripture-defines-'every-eye'/

Basically, the point of my post was that scripture defines specifically who it's talking about when it says "every eye shall see him" as being "EVEN" (meaning "namely", or "specifically") "THOSE WHICH PIERCED HIM".  That "piercing" was done at the instigation of the Jewish leadership that stirred up the people to have Christ crucified.  In doing this, they called down a blood-curse on themselves and their children, which came to pass on that one generation of parents and children.

When that judgment was being fulfilled in those AD 66-70 "days of vengeance" (as I think you also have acknowledged), THOSE were the "tribes of the earth" who were wailing when they realized that the blood-curse brought upon them by their own Jewish leadership was coming true.

The term "earth" or the "land" uses another word in Greek (ge) than one which refers to the whole planet or the entire known world at large (oikoumenen).  The majority of the time in scripture, the word "ge" in Jewish writing referred to the Jews' beloved, promised LAND of Canaan. 

Even God addresses the land of Judah in Jeremiah 22:29 as "O EARTH, EARTH, EARTH, hear the word of the Lord." 

So the "tribes of the earth" in mourning when they saw Christ return, as lea has also affirmed, truly were the 12 tribes of first-century Israel.  Which tribes do not exist today anymore in God's eyes, since He destroyed them "root and branch" in the AD 70 "great and terrible day of the Lord" (Mal. 4).

[robycop3]

  Nice try, Sir, but Jesus was speaking LITERALLY about His return. And ALL the tribes of the earth" mean JUST THAT.  He said, "EVEN those who pierced Him" because He knew they'd be long-dead before He returns, & so they'll see His return from hades. This MUST be true, as He hasn't returned, & those who pierced Him are dead. As Jesus was speaking literally, who does ALL the tribes of the earth exclude ?

  And the "lost" tribes of Israel still exist, only they've lost their national IDs for now; the Jews are the only Israelis who've kept their national ID thru God's power.

[lea]

 
  And the "lost" tribes of Israel still exist, only they've lost their national IDs for now; the Jews are the only Israelis who've kept their national ID thru God's power.

Nope. God never loses anything! Biblical Israel was the only time they were "God's chosen people."

And those were never lost.

Mark 13: 20"Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21"And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him; 22for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23"But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance.

The Return of Christ

      24"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. (emph. mine)

Same as Zech.13. The Lord said about Israel- The Shepherd Savior

7
"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,"
Says the Lord of hosts.
"Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8
And it shall come to pass in all the land,"
Says the Lord,
"That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one-third shall be left in it:
9
I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, 'This is My people';
And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' "

[robycop3]

  Yes, this is all still future.

[lea]

  Yes, this is all still future.

You are in the Preterist forum- not in the "End times" forum. You might be believed there!

There is no "end of the world" in scripture. Only the end of the old covenant age.

[robycop3]

You are in the Preterist forum- not in the "End times" forum. You might be believed there!

There is no "end of the world" in scripture. Only the end of the old covenant age.

  I know exactly where I'm at. My aim is to debunk preterism & show it's false. Scripture & history have already done it; my intent is just to show it.

  Prets simply cannot prove the events they SAY have already occurred, HAVE already occurred, simple as THAT !

[3 Resurrections]

Hi robycop3,

If your goal is to "debunk" Preterism, and if there is error within the system (and I agree there are some views within it that need correction), then you are supposed to follow the method laid down by the apostle Paul in II Timothy 2:24-25.  "And the servant of the Lord must NOT STRIVE; but be GENTLE unto all men, apt to teach, patient, IN MEEKNESS instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth...".

The "machete" technique doesn't have great success anyway in changing people's perspectives, unless maybe one is a Muslim trying to convert people at sword-point.  But even if you succeed in beating down your opponent, "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Your main problem is that you can't get past Revelation's insurmountable self-evidence that the unsealed fulfillment of future prophesied events in all of Revelation was "AT HAND" for that first-century generation (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10). 

I keep repeating this, and you continue to disregard it; God tells you point-blank in Ezekiel 12:22-28 that HIS definition of "AT HAND" prophecies means that they are fulfilled "in YOUR DAYS" for the original audience of those who are reading them for the first time.  They are NOT "PROLONGED" into "TIMES THAT ARE FAR OFF", such as almost 2,000 years and more down the road from the time that John was writing those "at hand" prophecies.  It really is as simple as that.

[robycop3]

Hi robycop3,

If your goal is to "debunk" Preterism, and if there is error within the system (and I agree there are some views within it that need correction), then you are supposed to follow the method laid down by the apostle Paul in II Timothy 2:24-25.  "And the servant of the Lord must NOT STRIVE; but be GENTLE unto all men, apt to teach, patient, IN MEEKNESS instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth...".

The "machete" technique doesn't have great success anyway in changing people's perspectives, unless maybe one is a Muslim trying to convert people at sword-point.  But even if you succeed in beating down your opponent, "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

  The evidence is simple, and is not mine, but is a combo of history and Scripture. The prophesied eschatological events simply HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED ! ! No getting by that !

Your main problem is that you can't get past Revelation's insurmountable self-evidence that the unsealed fulfillment of future prophesied events in all of Revelation was "AT HAND" for that first-century generation (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10). 

  Big prob for you:THEY HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET !

I keep repeating this, and you continue to disregard it; God tells you point-blank in Ezekiel 12:22-28 that HIS definition of "AT HAND" prophecies means that they are fulfilled "in YOUR DAYS" for the original audience of those who are reading them for the first time.  They are NOT "PROLONGED" into "TIMES THAT ARE FAR OFF", such as almost 2,000 years and more down the road from the time that John was writing those "at hand" prophecies.  It really is as simple as that.

  I disregard it because, no matter what you say, the prophesied events simply haven't yet happened ! I have Encyclopaedia Britannica, Collier's Encyclopedia, & World Book Encyclopedia in front of me, & the occurrence of those events is in none of them. And obviously, Jesus hasn't yet come, as He's not physically here, ruling the world with a rod of iron. No pret can get around that simple TRUTH!

Not trying to beat anyone down; just help them see the TRUTH! When did all life in the seas die? When was all green grass burned up? When was the mark of the beast issued? What did it look like?

[3 Resurrections]

Hi again robycop3,

Oh my, I have NEVER heard anyone deliberately say that they take the evidence of Collier's, World Book, and Encyclopedia Britannica ABOVE the word of the Lord God Jehovah.  Are you for real?  As if those three sources were the sum total of all wisdom and knowledge!!!  You disregard God's words in Ezekiel 12:21-28 at your own peril.

When God Himself tells you in Ezekiel 12 exactly how to interpret an "AT HAND" prophecy in His own book, you do NOT have an option to interpret this kind of prophecy otherwise, simply because you don't understand how they could have been fulfilled long ago. 

ALL the future written prophecies of Revelation are deliberately sandwiched between the introduction and the conclusion of those "AT HAND" limitations of Rev. 1:3 and Rev. 22:10.  That means you have to adjust your understanding of just how they were fulfilled to the time period of those first-century days.  According to Ezekiel 12:21-28, God does not give you the choice to do otherwise. 

So what if their past fulfillment doesn't seem possible to you?  That's not important.  It just means you are one exactly like that poor "doubting Thomas" who demanded to see Christ's wounds with his own eyes before he would believe.  It's just a sad case of little faith, which fortunately Christ does take pity on, or we would all be in trouble.

[robycop3]

Hi again robycop3,

Oh my, I have NEVER heard anyone deliberately say that they take the evidence of Collier's, World Book, and Encyclopedia Britannica ABOVE the word of the Lord God Jehovah.  Are you for real?  As if those three sources were the sum total of all wisdom and knowledge!!!  You disregard God's words in Ezekiel 12:21-28 at your own peril.

  No, I get HISTORY from them, as well as from other sources. Scripture shapes history, not vice versa. And there's NO history of the prophesied eschatological events having already occurred !

When God Himself tells you in Ezekiel 12 exactly how to interpret an "AT HAND" prophecy in His own book, you do NOT have an option to interpret this kind of prophecy otherwise, simply because you don't understand how they could have been fulfilled long ago. 

  Your stress on Ezekiel 12 is not based on the COMPLETE Scripture of that chapter. Because the Jews said the time is far-off & continued to worship idols, God declared the delay was over, & shortly after, Nebuchadnezzar came & subjugated Judah, exiling some, but not all, of them. Thus, those Jews caused God to execute judgment on them because of their mouths & attitudes, & continuing sin.

  Now, Paul prophesied about a "man of sin, that Wicked" who would enter the temple & proclaim himself God. Now, that didn't happen then; it's still future. And since that temple was destroyed, it'll occur in the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem. (Just ask any Jew if that temple's gonna happen or not !)

ALL the future written prophecies of Revelation are deliberately sandwiched between the introduction and the conclusion of those "AT HAND" limitations of Rev. 1:3 and Rev. 22:10.  That means you have to adjust your understanding of just how they were fulfilled to the time period of those first-century days.  According to Ezekiel 12:21-28, God does not give you the choice to do otherwise. 

So what if their past fulfillment doesn't seem possible to you?  That's not important.  It just means you are one exactly like that poor "doubting Thomas" who demanded to see Christ's wounds with his own eyes before he would believe.  It's just a sad case of little faith, which fortunately Christ does take pity on, or we would all be in trouble.

  No adjusting for events that HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED. The understanding is simple. Reading through the plagues of the 7th deal, the trumpets, & the bowls of God's wrath, it's very-easy to see those events HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED! Just no getting by that FACT !

[3 Resurrections]

Great!  You admit above that "SHORTLY AFTER" God gave His prophecy to Ezekiel that He fulfilled it with the invasion by Nebuchadnezzar.  This is why He said that this prophecy to Ezekiel was "AT HAND", meaning there would be no more delay until he brought it about in THEIR DAYS. 

That was the FIRST DEATH of the nation of Judah and their capital in Jerusalem under the final Babylonian invasion in 586 BC. 

Just like its first death, the "SECOND DEATH" of the nation and their capital city of Jerusalem was in AD 70.  This was the "furnace of fire" in Jerusalem - the "Lake of Fire" from which it would never rise again with any importance in God's eyes.  Just as in Ezekiel's prophecy, the mighty angel in Rev. 10:6 also swore by the living God that there would be "no more delay" before Jerusalem was thrown down for the second time in John's days, a judgment which was also "AT HAND" back then in the first century.

If you admit that "scripture shapes history" and not the other way around (which is true), then why do you have such an issue with beginning your interpretations of Revelation with God's definition of "AT HAND" prophecies being fulfilled "shortly after" John wrote that book? 

Why can you admit that "AT HAND" truly means "shortly after" in Ezekiel, but when it comes to Revelation, then suddenly it doesn't mean that anymore?  This is a double-minded way of looking at things...

[robycop3]

Great!  You admit above that "SHORTLY AFTER" God gave His prophecy to Ezekiel that He fulfilled it with the invasion by Nebuchadnezzar.  This is why He said that this prophecy to Ezekiel was "AT HAND", meaning there would be no more delay until he brought it about in THEIR DAYS. 

That was the FIRST DEATH of the nation of Judah and their capital in Jerusalem under the final Babylonian invasion in 586 BC. 

Just like its first death, the "SECOND DEATH" of the nation and their capital city of Jerusalem was in AD 70.  This was the "furnace of fire" in Jerusalem - the "Lake of Fire" from which it would never rise again with any importance in God's eyes.  Just as in Ezekiel's prophecy, the mighty angel in Rev. 10:6 also swore by the living God that there would be "no more delay" before Jerusalem was thrown down for the second time in John's days, a judgment which was also "AT HAND" back then in the first century.

If you admit that "scripture shapes history" and not the other way around (which is true), then why do you have such an issue with beginning your interpretations of Revelation with God's definition of "AT HAND" prophecies being fulfilled "shortly after" John wrote that book? 

Why can you admit that "AT HAND" truly means "shortly after" in Ezekiel, but when it comes to Revelation, then suddenly it doesn't mean that anymore?  This is a double-minded way of looking at things...

  Once again...it's the SIMPLE, BRUTAL TRUTH that the prophesied eschatological events have simply NOT YET HAPPENED ! !

Again...WHEN did all life in the seas die, & when was all green grass burned up ?

[lea]

  Once again...it's the SIMPLE, BRUTAL TRUTH that the prophesied eschatological events have simply NOT YET HAPPENED ! !

Yeah, we know, you keep on saying that. Why didn't you answer 3 R's question? I noticed you don't answer questions.

[3 Resurrections]

Ummm, robycop3, it's NOT "all life in the SEAS" (plural) that died.  In Rev. 16:3 it's "...every living soul died in the SEA" (SINGULAR).  So, which particular "sea" in the world was this? Remember, if you were an Israelite reading this, you knew that your nation ever since the OT had a "former sea" and a "hinder sea" - meaning the Dead Sea facing Jerusalem, and the Mediterranean Sea behind Jerusalem.  So the judgment in the single "sea" of Rev. 16:3 was one of these two seas under consideration. 

Also remember this: from old time, an Israelite would orient themselves on a map by facing EAST - NOT NORTH.  So that meant by facing East from Jerusalem, that the "former sea" was the Dead Sea in front of them, and the "hinder sea" was the Mediterranean Sea behind Jerusalem.

By Josephus' records of the war, the Mediterranean Sea was the one where the coastal city of Joppa was attacked by the Romans, and all the sea-faring pirates who fled to the Mediterranean Sea were killed by a violent storm that crushed them and their boats against the rocks.  Any of those who made it back to Joppa's shores were killed by the Romans.  None survived, for the city was utterly destroyed.  Total casualties were 4,200 that either slew themselves to avoid drowning, were drowned, were crushed against the rocky shore, or were cut down by Romans on the beach, "...insomuch that the sea was bloody a long way, and the maritime parts were full of dead bodies." (Wars 3.9.414-428).  This is the Rev. 16:3 interpretation when the sea "became as the blood of a dead man, and every living soul died in the sea."  Dated around AD 68.

As for when "all green grass was burned up" in Rev. 8:7, this was on THE EARTH (tes ges) which to an Israelite meant the PROMISED *LAND* OF ISRAEL - not the entire world or the planet at large.  NOTICE:  from the time of the 1st trumpet until the 5th trumpet, that the burned up grass had time to grow again, because there is a command under the 5th trumpet NOT TO HURT THE GRASS of the EARTH, so it must have had time to recover by then.

In real time, this judgment of "hail and fire mingled with blood" when only a third of trees and all grass on the earth burned up happened under the Samaritan and Galilean conflict of AD 52 - 53.  Read it yourself in either Ussher's notes #6762 - #6771, or in the corresponding accounts in Josephus and Tacitus that Ussher lists for you.  The countryside and the cities of Samaria really suffered by the Galileans under these war conditions, which were explosive enough that it was feared the entire nation of Israel would go into revolt against Rome during this time.

Remember, Christ had warned that even before the Great Tribulation started, that "nation shall rise against nation..." during "the beginning of sorrows".  Galilee versus Samaria in AD 52-53 fulfilled this 1st trumpet judgment.

[robycop3]

Ummm, robycop3, it's NOT "all life in the SEAS" (plural) that died.  In Rev. 16:3 it's "...every living soul died in the SEA" (SINGULAR).  So, which particular "sea" in the world was this? Remember, if you were an Israelite reading this, you knew that your nation ever since the OT had a "former sea" and a "hinder sea" - meaning the Dead Sea facing Jerusalem, and the Mediterranean Sea behind Jerusalem.  So the judgment in the single "sea" of Rev. 16:3 was one of these two seas under consideration. 

Also remember this: from old time, an Israelite would orient themselves on a map by facing EAST - NOT NORTH.  So that meant by facing East from Jerusalem, that the "former sea" was the Dead Sea in front of them, and the "hinder sea" was the Mediterranean Sea behind Jerusalem.

By Josephus' records of the war, the Mediterranean Sea was the one where the coastal city of Joppa was attacked by the Romans, and all the sea-faring pirates who fled to the Mediterranean Sea were killed by a violent storm that crushed them and their boats against the rocks.  Any of those who made it back to Joppa's shores were killed by the Romans.  None survived, for the city was utterly destroyed.  Total casualties were 4,200 that either slew themselves to avoid drowning, were drowned, were crushed against the rocky shore, or were cut down by Romans on the beach, "...insomuch that the sea was bloody a long way, and the maritime parts were full of dead bodies." (Wars 3.9.414-428).  This is the Rev. 16:3 interpretation when the sea "became as the blood of a dead man, and every living soul died in the sea."  Dated around AD 68.

As for when "all green grass was burned up" in Rev. 8:7, this was on THE EARTH (tes ges) which to an Israelite meant the PROMISED *LAND* OF ISRAEL - not the entire world or the planet at large.  NOTICE:  from the time of the 1st trumpet until the 5th trumpet, that the burned up grass had time to grow again, because there is a command under the 5th trumpet NOT TO HURT THE GRASS of the EARTH, so it must have had time to recover by then.

In real time, this judgment of "hail and fire mingled with blood" when only a third of trees and all grass on the earth burned up happened under the Samaritan and Galilean conflict of AD 52 - 53.  Read it yourself in either Ussher's notes #6762 - #6771, or in the corresponding accounts in Josephus and Tacitus that Ussher lists for you.  The countryside and the cities of Samaria really suffered by the Galileans under these war conditions, which were explosive enough that it was feared the entire nation of Israel would go into revolt against Rome during this time.

Remember, Christ had warned that even before the Great Tribulation started, that "nation shall rise against nation..." during "the beginning of sorrows".  Galilee versus Samaria in AD 52-53 fulfilled this 1st trumpet judgment.

  With all due respect...

   You're really exaggerating! The Dead Sea has been "dead" a LONG time before 70 AD ! The ancient Israelis gave it its name long before then! And the Med has not been dead since man has been here.

   And the Scripture says "ALL green grass", not just in Israel. The great trib will be WORLDWIDE. That's another pret "private interp", trying to limit it to Israel & the Jews & Israelis.

   And obviously, JESUS HAS NOT YET RETURNED ! Remember, Jesus said, in Matt. 24:29-30 that He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE GREAT TRIB. So, if the trib has already happened, He is long-overdue !

  You're getting nowhere fast !

[lea]

Nowhere fast? And maybe He is just long overdue in your mind!
Psalm 46:10,
He says, "Be still, and know that I am God;
    I will be exalted among the nations,
    I will be exalted in the earth."
Much more power for living than any futuristic doctrine.

[robycop3]

Nowhere fast? And maybe He is just long overdue in your mind!
Psalm 46:10,
He says, "Be still, and know that I am God;
    I will be exalted among the nations,
    I will be exalted in the earth."
Much more power for living than any futuristic doctrine.

  God is NOT exalted on earth now, except by Christians.

  And it's obvious Jesus has NOT yet returned.  When He does, EVERY EYE will see Him, as HE HIMSELF said. And He will rule the world, with the saints, from Jerusalem, with a rod of iron.

SCRIPTURAL proof:

Rev. 2:27He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'— as I also have received from My Father;

Rev. 12:5She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Rev. 19:15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

Three verses that make lies of the statements that He's already returned !

[3 Resurrections]

Hi robycop3,

There is one rule for this forum that you are consistently breaking with your succession of posts.  Please go back and read rule #2.3 about "high-jacking" posts by introducing subjects not related to the original theme. 

This rule makes it easier for anybody doing any kind of searching of various subjects.  If you seriously want to start a post with the main theme being "It ain't happened yet", then do so, and we can respond there.  Otherwise you are being extremely discourteous, and can be called on breaking this rule by the moderators.

[robycop3]

Hi robycop3,

There is one rule for this forum that you are consistently breaking with your succession of posts.  Please go back and read rule #2.3 about "high-jacking" posts by introducing subjects not related to the original theme. 

This rule makes it easier for anybody doing any kind of searching of various subjects.  If you seriously want to start a post with the main theme being "It ain't happened yet", then do so, and we can respond there.  Otherwise you are being extremely discourteous, and can be called on breaking this rule by the moderators.

  OK, then, about John, the disciple in question:

  OF COURSE he died. remember, Jesus was presenting a hypothetical situation to those who questioned Him. He told them, in effect, "that ***IF*** He wanted that disciple to live til He returned, that was none of THEIR business." He NEVER said that disciple wouldn't die ! !

[lea]

  OK, then, about John, the disciple in question:

  OF COURSE he died. remember, Jesus was presenting a hypothetical situation to those who questioned Him. He told them, in effect, "that ***IF*** He wanted that disciple to live til He returned, that was none of THEIR business." He NEVER said that disciple wouldn't die ! !

I'll repeat my response to you since you seem to not even consider it due perhaps a lack of a spiritual gift. It must come down to that because futurists seem to be blind to the word "soon" in Revelation.
I have tried to understand how they think, to no avail. It must lie in the fact that they lack a spiritual gift!
From a previous post of mine:

And in John 21, Did Jesus state something as "if" about Peter's death? No. And I believe He put the "if" there about John for Peter's sake. How could the Lord tell Peter something direct like "he will tarry till I come?" That would certainly break my heart if I were Peter. Do you catch my drift on that?!

[robycop3]

I'll repeat my response to you since you seem to not even consider it due perhaps a lack of a spiritual gift. It must come down to that because futurists seem to be blind to the word "soon" in Revelation.
I have tried to understand how they think, to no avail. It must lie in the fact that they lack a spiritual gift!
From a previous post of mine:

  So, you're claiming some sorta Spiritual gift? WOW!

   The Holy Spirit teaches me TRUTH, by opening my understanding of Scripture, & causing me to compare it with history and news.  History is shaped by Scripture, not vice versa. We see prophecy being fulfilled right before our eyes, such as the restoration of the Jewish sovereign nation, with Jerusalem as its capital. And we see the fulfillment of much of Isaiah 19 right before us. We see Egypt being quite-poor & weak. We see the 80 million Egyptians afraid of the 6 million Israelis, as per Isaiah 19:17. This is absolutely undeniable in the aftermath of the 3 wars Egypt has lost against Israel, even in cahoots with Syria & Jordan.

  So, we can count on the rest of that chapter being fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

  And much of Revelation is literal as well, & what symbolism there is always represents something literal. The revealing angel explained the meaning of the vision of Rev. 17 to John, & much of that symbolism carries over  to the rest of the Revelation. And most of those events simply haven't happened yet. No use making up goofy explanations. You should simply accept the truth-that the world has continued on, as it was, before, during, & after 70 AD.

[lea]

  So, you're claiming some sorta Spiritual gift? WOW!

   The Holy Spirit teaches me TRUTH, by opening my understanding of Scripture, & causing me to compare it with history and news.  History is shaped by Scripture, not vice versa. We see prophecy being fulfilled right before our eyes, such as the restoration of the Jewish sovereign nation, with Jerusalem as its capital. And we see the fulfillment of much of Isaiah 19 right before us. We see Egypt being quite-poor & weak. We see the 80 million Egyptians afraid of the 6 million Israelis, as per Isaiah 19:17. This is absolutely undeniable in the aftermath of the 3 wars Egypt has lost against Israel, even in cahoots with Syria & Jordan.

  So, we can count on the rest of that chapter being fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

  And much of Revelation is literal as well, & what symbolism there is always represents something literal. The revealing angel explained the meaning of the vision of Rev. 17 to John, & much of that symbolism carries over  to the rest of the Revelation. And most of those events simply haven't happened yet. No use making up goofy explanations. You should simply accept the truth-that the world has continued on, as it was, before, during, & after 70 AD.

More than "most" of those events occurred and fulfilled. When you tap into the Holy Spirit, I challenge you to ask him what the word "soon" means in Revelation.

[robycop3]

  Yes, the tribes of Israel are part of the tribes of the earth.

[lea]

What other "tribes" are mentioned in the Bible?

[robycop3]

What other "tribes" are mentioned in the Bible?

Some of Egypt in Isaiah 19:13.

And, of course, in Matt. 24:30. Had Jesus meant only the tribes of Israel, He woulda said "Israel !

  The Hebrew word for "tribe' is "matteh"; the Greek word is "phyle".  These Hebrew can
mean 'branch'; the Greek can mean "nation".

[lea]

Some of Egypt in Isaiah 19:13.

And, of course, in Matt. 24:30. Had Jesus meant only the tribes of Israel, He woulda said "Israel !

  The Hebrew word for "tribe' is "matteh"; the Greek word is "phyle".  These Hebrew can
mean 'branch'; the Greek can mean "nation".

Yeah, well, Isa.19 was fulfilled and Jesus WAS addressing Jerusalem in Matt.23, which continued on to Matt.24 and 25. Remember, we did not have chapter designations originally.

Jesus didn't have to say "tribes of Israel" instead of "tribes of the land" in Matt.24:30. He was speaking about the tribes who pierced Him and crucified him.

[robycop3]

Yeah, well, Isa.19 was fulfilled and Jesus WAS addressing Jerusalem in Matt.23, which continued on to Matt.24 and 25. Remember, we did not have chapter designations originally.

Jesus didn't have to say "tribes of Israel" instead of "tribes of the land" in Matt.24:30. He was speaking about the tribes who pierced Him and crucified him.

  Again, had Jesus meant Israel, He woulda said so ! After all, He created all people, not just Israel.

  And He said, "EVEN those who pierced Him", meaning their seeing His return was extraordinary in itself, as they are all dead now. They'll see His return from hades, as will all the righteous, as they're resurrected to join Him here on earth.

[lea]

  Again, had Jesus meant Israel, He woulda said so ! After all, He created all people, not just Israel.

  And He said, "EVEN those who pierced Him", meaning their seeing His return was extraordinary in itself, as they are all dead now. They'll see His return from hades, as will all the righteous, as they're resurrected to join Him here on earth.

That's not what the "even" indicates there. It means the same as the statement before. AS in:
Psalms 68:19 KJV "Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation." The KJV seems to use the "even" more so than other versions.

They won't see His return from sheol because Christ already lifted them up from hades and resurrected those dead in there to heaven. There is no more hades or spiritual "death."

When the power of the holy people would be shattered (AD70)
Fulfillment of Daniel 12:But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;[a] and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end.

[robycop3]

That's not what the "even" indicates there. It means the same as the statement before. AS in:
Psalms 68:19 KJV "Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation." The KJV seems to use the "even" more so than other versions.

They won't see His return from sheol because Christ already lifted them up from hades and resurrected those dead in there to heaven. There is no more hades or spiritual "death."

When the power of the holy people would be shattered (AD70)
Fulfillment of Daniel 12:But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;[a] and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end.

Well, actually, the KJV says "also". Most other translations read "even", which in this case means "surprisingly", etc. Since those who pierced him are dead & lost, it's indeed surprising that Jesus would allow them to see His return from hades, but that's what he told John, so I believe it. And the souls of the dead are still in sheol/hades, both the righteous & the lost. When Jesus returns, He will call out the righteous from paradise, then, call up the righteous still living. to meet Him & go to "the camp of the saints" in Jerusalem with Him.

[lea]

by robycop3,
Well, actually, the KJV says "also". Most other translations read "even", which in this case means "surprisingly", etc. Since those who pierced him are dead & lost, it's indeed surprising that Jesus would allow them to see His return from hades, but that's what he told John, so I believe it. And the souls of the dead are still in sheol/hades, both the righteous & the lost. When Jesus returns, He will call out the righteous from paradise, then, call up the righteous still living. to meet Him & go to "the camp of the saints" in Jerusalem with Him.

Still in hades? The promise to the OT saints and prophets was the RESURRECTION!

The Greek word translated as "earth" γῆ, for example in 6:4 8, 10, 15 as well as throughout the book of Revelation would have been better translated as "land" χώρα, ας, ἡ. This can be seen from the context as being a localized event "The inhabitants of Jerusalem" not all the inhabited on the earth. The problem was not with all the inhabited on the earth but rather it was with old covenant Israel who shouted all the louder, ""Let Him be crucified!" "Let Him be crucified!" "His blood be on us and on our children." (Matthew 27:22-25)

And the problem was with fleshly Israel persecuting God's spiritual Israel as shown by Paul's words about Abraham's two sons in the fourth chapter of Galatians were the elder brother was persecuting the younger brother.

The term "earth" is often used in our translation of Revelation. The Greek word γῆ, would often be better translater "land" χώρα, ας, ἡ. This also helps us identify the "earth" in Zechariah.

According to Zechariah, the "earth" is the land of Palestine, specifically, "The inhabitants of Jerusalem". Also, it is those tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would "look upon whom they had pierced." And because of this, "the mourning in Jerusalem" would be great. With all of this https://www.facebook.com/EvangelicalPreterism/posts/revelation-17by-terry-cropperrevelation-17-reads-behold-he-is-coming-with-clouds/1767838816765992/

[robycop3]

  Well, those who pierced Him, & those who had Him pierced are all dead, & Jesus hasn't returned yet, so they shall see His return from hades, simple as THAT.

[lea]

  Well, those who pierced Him, & those who had Him pierced are all dead, & Jesus hasn't returned yet, so they shall see His return from hades, simple as THAT.

Again you can't overcome preterism on this topic.

Your opinion needs an  solid Biblical exegesis to be considered.

We go to heaven and claim our spiritual bodies when we die.  No hades waiting.

The flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Not here, not in heaven either!

[robycop3]

Again you can't overcome preterism on this topic.

Your opinion needs an  solid Biblical exegesis to be considered.

We go to heaven and claim our spiritual bodies when we die.  No hades waiting.

The flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Not here, not in heaven either!

  You're getting off the subject. And you're ignoring Jesus' parable in Luke 16 about the rich man & Lazarus. Lazarus went to the paradise area of hades, while the rich man went to 'torments'.

  And Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross beside him, "Today, you shall be with Me in PARADISE. (Paradise is not heaven.) And at the Great White Throne judgment, hades shall be emptied, as Scripture says.

Thus, preterism blows it again.

[lea]

  You're getting off the subject. And you're ignoring Jesus' parable in Luke 16 about the rich man & Lazarus. Lazarus went to the paradise area of hades, while the rich man went to 'torments'.

  And Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross beside him, "Today, you shall be with Me in PARADISE. (Paradise is not heaven.) And at the Great White Throne judgment, hades shall be emptied, as Scripture says.

Thus, preterism blows it again.

That trumpet blows you away!

Paradise wasn't heaven. But it well may have been Abraham's bosom. Jesus freed the faithful from hades and brought them to heaven, just as He promised.

Dan.12:"At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting [a]contempt.
3
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.- emph. mine.

[robycop3]

That trumpet blows you away!

Paradise wasn't heaven. But it well may have been Abraham's bosom. Jesus freed the faithful from hades and brought them to heaven, just as He promised.

Dan.12:"At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting [a]contempt.
3
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.- emph. mine.

ACTUALLY, "at that time" hasn't gotten here yet.