Matthew 25- the judgment of the sheep and goats

[lea]

Even though I settled in my mind all the proofs for full preterism years ago, what still bothers me are the partial-preterists. I read an excellent answer for Matthew 24 that was based on full preterism, so I thought, only to have this studied writer say "but I still believe Jesus hasn't returned." They base it on the Matthew 25 scripture that "all the nations" are still to be judged- the sheep and goats in Matthew 25: 31-46. We also see these "nations" in Rev.19 where Jesus will strike those nations and rule them with a rod of iron.
I found an excellent explanation for these "nations" being Israel. I knew that they were, but their articulation on the subject was limited. Now I ran into a more complete interpretation of why this scripture spoke of Israel as "the nations.!"

With that said, here is an excerpt of that link:
Who Are the Nations?

Wait a minute! Jesus said these are the "nations" being judged. Certainly this becomes prima facie evidence that this was a world-wide event that he is describing right? Not really.

Consider this:

1. The separation metaphor throughout Matthew 23-25 was specific to the Jews. This is true in other parables (Mt 13) as well as the words of John the Baptist himself (Mt. 3:12).

2. As I mentioned earlier, the apostate Jews are identified as having completely broken covenant and now are no different than the pagan nations. They are called Egypt (Gal. 4, Rev. 11:8), Babylon (1 Peter 5:13), Sodom (Rev. 11:8), and Nineveh (Mt 12:41). That alone is significant and sufficient, but there is scholarship that demonstrates how many of the "Jews" of Judah were Edomites as well.

It was the time in covenant history where the followers of Christ are already being called a "holy nation" by comparison. Do you see?

In addition, there are even several references where the Jews are included as a "nation", using the same language usually associated with the pagan people groups in contrast to themselves. But in these passages the word is applied to Jews: Luke 7:5, 23:2, John 11:48, 50-53; 18:35; Acts 10:22; Acts 24:2.

https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2015/7/13/the-sheep-and-goats-judgment

[3 Resurrections]

Hi lea,

I checked out your link to get a fuller perspective from the author on this issue.  If they (and you) think that the AD 70 era was composed SOLELY of a judgment on the single Jewish nation, that is a mistake.  It was to be a judgment on ALL NATIONS (plural).

Paul on Mars Hill addressed the Athenians in Acts 17:30-31 with a warning that God "now charges ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent, because He set a day, in which He IS ABOUT TO JUDGE THE *HABITABLE WORLD* (tes oikoumenes) in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, proof having been given to all in having raised Him from among the dead."   This was to be a judgment in which the dead from the entire habitable world - not just the Jewish nation - would participate in AD 70, or why would Paul have been warning those Athenians from a Gentile nation of this imminent event?

Peter also mentioned in I Peter 4:17-18 that judgment had already begun at the house of God  (because some had already become weak and sickly, and had fallen asleep in death for misusing the ordinance of the Lord's supper, and for other doctrinal heresies).  Peter said that since God had already begun judging the church so severely, that He would also judge the "ungodly" ones who obeyed not the gospel of God, and the "sinner" (the Jews who had rejected Him, and the Gentile nations who the Jews referred to as "sinners"). 

So that ALL the nations - Jew and Gentile alike - would have no excuse for being ignorant of God's soon-coming judgment of the dead, Matthew 24:14 said that the gospel would be preached "IN ALL THE HABITABLE EARTH (te oikoumene) for a testimony TO ALL THE NATIONS; and then shall the end come."  This world-wide evangelism of the Jewish and Gentile nations actually did come to pass before AD 70's resurrection of the dead at Christ's return, as Paul gives testimony in his epistles (Col. 1:6, 23, etc.).

The common assumption (which really has no basis in scripture) is that there is ONE and ONLY ONE judgment of the dead.  Simply because AD 70 had a scheduled resurrection and judgment of all the dead from all the nations who had died prior to that time does NOT eliminate a future resurrection and judgment of all those who will have died AFTER that AD 70 judgment. 

Christ has a THIRD coming scheduled for this event.

[lea]

Hi lea,

I checked out your link to get a fuller perspective from the author on this issue.  If they (and you) think that the AD 70 era was composed SOLELY of a judgment on the single Jewish nation, that is a mistake.  It was to be a judgment on ALL NATIONS (plural).

Paul on Mars Hill addressed the Athenians in Acts 17:30-31 with a warning that God "now charges ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent, because He set a day, in which He IS ABOUT TO JUDGE THE *HABITABLE WORLD* (tes oikoumenes) in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, proof having been given to all in having raised Him from among the dead."   This was to be a judgment in which the dead from the entire habitable world - not just the Jewish nation - would participate in AD 70, or why would Paul have been warning those Athenians from a Gentile nation of this imminent event?

Peter also mentioned in I Peter 4:17-18 that judgment had already begun at the house of God  (because some had already become weak and sickly, and had fallen asleep in death for misusing the ordinance of the Lord's supper, and for other doctrinal heresies).  Peter said that since God had already begun judging the church so severely, that He would also judge the "ungodly" ones who obeyed not the gospel of God, and the "sinner" (the Jews who had rejected Him, and the Gentile nations who the Jews referred to as "sinners"). 

So that ALL the nations - Jew and Gentile alike - would have no excuse for being ignorant of God's soon-coming judgment of the dead, Matthew 24:14 said that the gospel would be preached "IN ALL THE HABITABLE EARTH (te oikoumene) for a testimony TO ALL THE NATIONS; and then shall the end come."  This world-wide evangelism of the Jewish and Gentile nations actually did come to pass before AD 70's resurrection of the dead at Christ's return, as Paul gives testimony in his epistles (Col. 1:6, 23, etc.).

The common assumption (which really has no basis in scripture) is that there is ONE and ONLY ONE judgment of the dead.  Simply because AD 70 had a scheduled resurrection and judgment of all the dead from all the nations who had died prior to that time does NOT eliminate a future resurrection and judgment of all those who will have died AFTER that AD 70 judgment. 

Christ has a THIRD coming scheduled for this event.

I do stand corrected about "the nations." It wasn't just a judgment on the Jews. 
I missed what my favorite full preterist writer, Don K. Preston wrote about this on the Preterist Archive. DP was the main reason I am in the preterist camp. (His book, "Who is this Babylon") was my
staple. Now. I have one full preterist vs. another on the meaning of "the nations.

With that said, you are right about the "nations" but you miss the imminence of this judgment!
Here is a summary of DP's article:
   Summary

     We have examined the contention that Jerusalem's fall was simply a localized judgment on the Jews. We have shown from Jesus' own words that he did not consider it to be so. The whole world (oikoumene), which was to hear the message of judgment, Matthew 24:14, was to be judged, Acts 17:30-31; and be in distress, Luke 21:25-26, Revelation 3:10. We have seen this was definitely to happen in that generation.

     Further, we have demonstrated that other New Testament writers taught that "universal judgment" was imminent, Matthew 16:27-28, cf. Revelation 22:12. Peter taught it, 1 Peter 4:5,7,17; James 5:7-9 and others.

     Finally, we have seen Jesus unequivocally state that the judgment of all the dead, all the way back to creation, was to be when Jerusalem fell, Matthew 23:29-39.

     For all these reasons and more we find untenable the contention that the fall of Jerusalem was a localized judgment. It was in fact the universal judgment of the living and the dead!

The whole article is on https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_preston_local-judgment.html

Lastly, let me correct YOUR thinking that there is more than one judgment of the living and the dead.
Jesus has NO 3rd coming! Scripture says,  Hebrews 9-28
New American Standard Bible so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, 

Thus your partial preterist outlook needs more study!

[3 Resurrections]

Hi again lea,

I've never denied the first-century imminence of the judgment.  Where did you get the impression that I missed that point?

And there is a hole in your logic if you are using the Hebrews 9:28 verse to deny a third coming of Christ. That verse about Christ appearing a second time for salvation to those who eagerly waited for Him says NOTHING either for OR against a third coming of Christ.  Neither you nor I can use that verse to prove our viewpoint on a third coming.

It would be no different than if I wrote to you telling you details about my plans for making a second business trip out of state this year.  Does that prove that I will not be making a third trip?  No, it doesn't prove it either one way or another.  You'll have to find proof more conclusive than that if you want to refute a third coming of Christ. 

[lea]

Well, that's a poor analogy when what is written in the Bible is compared to how many trips one takes!

Even futurists believe in a final or last judgment. Last Judgment in general:
The concept is found in all the Canonical gospels, particularly the Gospel of Matthew. Christian Futurists believe it will take place after the Resurrection of the Dead and the Second Coming of Christ while Full Preterists believe it has already occurred. The Last Judgment has inspired numerous artistic depictions.

The Bible does not support another judgment or a third coming. Great that you did see the imminence of the first century judgment. Did you also see the "at hand" and "soon" references of Christ's return then? I don't recall your viewpoint. If you don't apply the scripture saying His return was to be "soon" then how do you reconcile a resurrection and judgment being imminent then and not Jesus coming with His holy angels?

[3 Resurrections]

Hi lea,

If you don't like my every-day comparison of a second business trip, let's see if I can give you a more exalted analogy for the Hebrews 9:28 description of the second coming of Christ. 

Try John 4:54 for example.  "This is again the SECOND MIRACLE that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee."  By using your logic that limits the number of times Christ can come to ONLY TWO, (since Heb. 9:28 speaks of Christ's SECOND coming), then you must also limit the total number of miracles Christ performed to ONLY TWO, since John 4:54 speaks about Christ's SECOND miracle. 

In other words, lea, your logic doesn't work when applied consistently.  You can't use Hebrews 9:28 to limit the number of Christ's comings to only two occasions.  Keep looking for scripture proof, but I guarantee that you won't find anywhere in scripture that refutes a third coming for Christ.

I try not to formulate any doctrinal position on the judgment of the dead based on religious artistic depictions of the subject, such as "The Last Judgment".  No matter how beautifully portrayed by the artist or well-accepted by the majority.

The Bible does indeed support another judgment of the dead at a third coming of Christ.  I've written comments on this forum before, giving texts that support this.  Try this link below for example, under reply #23.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/your-hero-nero/

Most Preterists I know miss the full significance of the "First Resurrection" of the 144,000 First-fruits saints raised along with Christ in Matthew 27:52-53.  They don't know how to explain that unusual phenomenon, so they refuse to consider that theirs was a true, bona-fide example, visible for all to see, of the permanent bodily-resurrected state that all saints will eventually receive. 

God designed a "harvest" of the saints' bodies to occur in three stages over the span of human history's timeline - based on the symbolism of the three harvest festivals of Passover, Pentecost, and Feast of Tabernacles.

The SECOND "harvest" of the saints was the one that was "soon" to occur for John's first-century generation on AD 70's Pentecost Day.  It truly was "AT HAND" (as in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10) for those who were first reading John's words written in late AD 59 to early AD 60. 

I do agree that John gave indications of how close his written prophecies were to being fulfilled in his days.  God specifically defines what He means by an "AT HAND" prophecy in Ezekiel 12:23-28.  This kind of prophecy is fulfilled "IN YOUR DAYS" to those who are reading it or hearing it when it is FIRST given.  An "AT HAND" fulfillment is NOT "PROLONGED" into "TIMES THAT ARE FAR OFF", according to God's definition.  That means all of Revelation's unsealed prophecies written by John came to pass in his own days - not "prolonged" into "times that were far off", such as our own present time.

And as I have said before; Revelation 10:4 is the ONLY self-exception to all the other "at hand" prophecies.  These prophecies John was forbidden to write down in Rev. 10:4 were "sealed up" and reserved for fulfillment in times future to AD 70's immediate time frame.

[lea]

I get a kick out of someone using an "exception" like in Rev.10 to fill in their version of what was not to be revealed!

2 pinocchios for you- maybe more.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi lea,

It's not MY version of what would happen post-AD70; it's ZECHARIAH's version of what would happen following the destruction of AD 70 Jerusalem. 

You remember, of course, that the Feast of Tabernacles was emphasized in Zech. 14:15-19 no less than three times for all the nations after the AD 70 Jerusalem destruction.  That's because God meant to highlight that particular time of the year when the last remaining third resurrection "harvest" of the bodies of the saints would take place.   

The other two OT feasts (Passover and Pentecost) were not mentioned in Zech. 14, because the first and second resurrection events taking place at those times of the year would have already been fulfilled types by the end of AD 70, and so would not need to be emphasized anymore.

The Rev.10:4 exception was to be sealed up to John's first-century readers because a seal always represents a DELAYED fulfillment of a prophecy, as even Don Preston freely admits and teaches.

John's generation, (just like those who were first reading about Daniel's sealed prophecies back in his day) knew that there was going to be a long delay before those prophecies would be unsealed.  So they didn't need to concern themselves about the content which was unrevealed to them. 

[lea]

by 3R's:

You remember, of course, that the Feast of Tabernacles was emphasized in Zech. 14:15-19 no less than three times for all the nations after the AD 70 Jerusalem destruction.  That's because God meant to highlight that particular time of the year when the last remaining third resurrection "harvest" of the bodies of the saints would take place.

I only see the "feast of Tabernacles" mentioned once. I do remember that the Romans burned the temple at this feast time. They let Jews come for the celebration only to be trapped in the city and meet their fate.

I don't see why you call this the third resurrection future to AD70.

And Don K. Preston wouldn't contradict scripture. The mighty angel of Rev.10 clearly said there shall be no delay.

[3 Resurrections]

Hey again lea,

Yep, three mentions of the Feast of Tabernacles in Zechariah 14:16, 18, and 19.  This is a Hebraic writing technique; to mention something twice or even three times in rapid succession was a manner of underscoring the importance of it.  Like Jesus saying "Verily, verily...", or the four beasts in heaven saying " Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty...".   Or like Peter seeing three repetitions of the vision of the sheet with unclean animals in it. 

So it would seem that AFTER AD 70's destruction of Jerusalem, "from year to year" following that event (as Zech. 14:16 speaks about a POST-AD 70 reality for the nations), God reeeeeally wanted us to pay attention to the symbolism that the Feast of Tabernacles portrays.  It was a harvest celebration, with the celebrants re-enacting their living in temporary booths on their way to the Promised Land of Canaan.  In the same way that we saints are temporarily living in corruptible bodies on our way to the Promised Land where we will finally possess our promised hope of a permanently incorruptible version of our resurrected body to dwell in.

The reason I am certain that Christ's second coming was on AD 70's Pentecost Day is based on Daniel 12:11-12 and the curiously precise 1,335 days until Daniel's resurrection, when he would "stand in his lot" at the end of that 1,335th day.   Josephus' records of the dated events of the war reveal when that 1,335th day fell on the calendar, and it's Pentecost Day in AD 70, just 45 days after Titus came to trap all the Passover celebrants within the city. 

As for the "no more delay" announced in Rev. 10:6, that context meant no more delay for the seventh angel's trumpet to sound, when the mystery of God would be finished.  This would usher in "the time of the dead, that they should be judged", when the seventh angel sounded the last trumpet of the seven trumpets.  (For the second AD 70 resurrection on Pentecost Day, that is.)

Don Preston teaches (and I agree) that the fulfillment of Daniel's SEALED UP prophecies was DELAYED during his days until his WRITTEN prophecies were finally UNSEALED in John's days.  That was the time when his visions were then "at hand", with "no more delay" for their fulfillment.

Using the very same process, the 7 thunders' prophecies of Rev. 10:4 were SEALED UP just like Daniel's prophecies, and therefore were delayed for a later time of fulfillment than the rest of Revelation's UNSEALED prophecies.

[lea]

OK, well some bible versions mention the feast of tabernacles one or two or three times. But what difference does it make? The feast was a thanksgiving of the harvest celebration to the Jews.

Jews for Jesus site notes:Sukkot, the Feast of Booths, commonly goes by another name, "The Season of Our Joy," for joy predominates on this holiday more than any other. Jewish people around the world construct sukkot (singular: sukkah), frail huts or booths that remind us of God's provision and our dependence on Him. Sukkot is a memorial to remind us of the building of booths during our ancestors' wanderings in the wilderness: "The Feast of Tabernacles was an annual reminder to the people that God is the Great Shepherd who has chosen to 'tabernacle among them,' to protect and bless them wherever they wander."
I still don't see a "corporate" harvest again after AD70.

Also please show Josephus' quotes about Daniel's 1335 days. I'm not familiar with it.

Thing is, Jesus was sighted in the glory cloud over Jerusalem at the beginning of the siege in Jerusalem until the end of the siege in Sept.or Oct. AD70.
From a little history on Titus:
After service in Britain and Germany, Titus commanded a legion under his father, Vespasian, in Judaea (67). Following the emperor Nero's death in June 68, Titus was energetic in promoting his father's candidacy for the imperial crown. Licinius Mucianus, legate of Syria, whom he reconciled with Vespasian, considered that one of Vespasian's greatest assets was to have so promising a son and heir. Immediately on being proclaimed emperor in 69, Vespasian gave Titus charge of the Jewish war, and a large-scale campaign in 70 culminated in the capture and destruction of Jerusalem in September.

And still, The angels that bring the plagues and knew what the "thunders" would say are trumped by what the mighty angel had to say about the 7th trumpet.
Don K.P. puts it this way:
  In Isaiah 11 the priestly prophet spoke of the day when the ensign would be raised, Gentiles would be saved, and "It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people who are left from Assyria, and Egypt, from Pathros...He will set up a banner for the nations and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth" v.12. The dispersed would come for "There will be a highway for the remnant of his people who will be left from Assyria, As it was for Israel in the day that he came up from the land of Egypt" v.16.
DKP again:The seven thunders in this verse are presumably the seven angels of the seven plaques.  The mystery of God in v. 7 is uncertain.  This mystery is accomplished at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, which as will be seen in Revelation 11:15, heralds a new age in which Christ reigns.

Rev.11:15-18, 15 When the seventh angel blew his trumpet, there were loud voices in heaven, saying,

"The world's kingdom has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,[a]
        and he will rule forever and ever."

16 Then the twenty-four elders who were sitting on their thrones in God's presence fell on their faces and worshipped God. 17 They said,

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
    and have begun to rule.
18
The nations were angry,
    but the time for your wrath has come.
It is time for the dead to be judged—
    to reward your servants, the prophets, the saints, and all who fear your name,
        both unimportant and important,
    and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

So this is the time of the resurrection and judgment. Not seeing Christ's third coming or another corporate resurrection and judgment post AD70!

[3 Resurrections]

Hi lea, 

This is why there MUST be yet another judgment at a third resurrection in our future:

Romans 14:10 - "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?  FOR WE SHALL *ALL* STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST."  This means that *EVERY* saint  - including those of us after the AD 70 resurrection and judgment - MUST stand before Christ's judgment seat.  There's no reason to think that we would be exempt from this judgment of the dead.

II Cor. 5:9-10 - "Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.  FOR WE MUST *ALL* APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that *EVERY ONE*may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."  This is still true of the saints today; we ALL will give an account of ourselves to God in a resurrection - not just the saints in the AD 70 resurrection and judgment of the dead.   

You asked to see Josephus' quotes related to the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-13.  To make it easier for me (since I have to post comments on my cell phone) I'll give you the link to where I discussed this in full detail with someone.  You may recognize it when you see it, because you actually wrote some comments yourself on this post.  Scroll down to reply #19 for the comments about how Josephus helps pin down the actual date for the 1,335th day when the Pentecost resurrection in AD 70 took place.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/the-paradigm-for-the-three-resurrections/   (reply #19)

[lea]

Again 3R's, by saying we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ as the 3rd resurrection doesn't make sense.
That "Bema" seat event is individual for all of believers when they die. By that logic, there were billions of resurrections of Christians there. Not just 3 resurrections!

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Even though I settled in my mind all the proofs for full preterism years ago, what still bothers me are the partial-preterists. I read an excellent answer for Matthew 24 that was based on full preterism, so I thought, only to have this studied writer say "but I still believe Jesus hasn't returned." They base it on the Matthew 25 scripture that "all the nations" are still to be judged- the sheep and goats in Matthew 25: 31-46. We also see these "nations" in Rev.19 where Jesus will strike those nations and rule them with a rod of iron.
I found an excellent explanation for these "nations" being Israel. I knew that they were, but their articulation on the subject was limited. Now I ran into a more complete interpretation of why this scripture spoke of Israel as "the nations.!"

With that said, here is an excerpt of that link:
Who Are the Nations?

Wait a minute! Jesus said these are the "nations" being judged. Certainly this becomes prima facie evidence that this was a world-wide event that he is describing right? Not really.

Consider this:

1. The separation metaphor throughout Matthew 23-25 was specific to the Jews. This is true in other parables (Mt 13) as well as the words of John the Baptist himself (Mt. 3:12).

2. As I mentioned earlier, the apostate Jews are identified as having completely broken covenant and now are no different than the pagan nations. They are called Egypt (Gal. 4, Rev. 11:8), Babylon (1 Peter 5:13), Sodom (Rev. 11:8), and Nineveh (Mt 12:41). That alone is significant and sufficient, but there is scholarship that demonstrates how many of the "Jews" of Judah were Edomites as well.

It was the time in covenant history where the followers of Christ are already being called a "holy nation" by comparison. Do you see?

In addition, there are even several references where the Jews are included as a "nation", using the same language usually associated with the pagan people groups in contrast to themselves. But in these passages the word is applied to Jews: Luke 7:5, 23:2, John 11:48, 50-53; 18:35; Acts 10:22; Acts 24:2.

https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2015/7/13/the-sheep-and-goats-judgment

I'm a little late to this party, but allow me to present an alternative explanation, here.

1. The separation metaphor throughout Matthew 23-25 was specific to the Jews.

The chapter is specific to Israel, not Judah.  One of the keys to understanding prophecy is grasping the fact that Judah (the southern kingdom) and Israel (the northern kingdom) have separate timelines.

The timeline for Israel was that due to her apostasy she was to be destroyed utterly (fulfilled by the Assyrians), to the extent that the prophet calls Israel "Lo Ammi" (no people).  After a long absence, her dormant bones would be revived, and clothed in flesh, and she would return to life (Eze 37).  She was to be "called out" from among the nations, and the harvesters were to go forth among the nations and gather Israel, restoring her to existence.

This, in a nutshell, is Jesus ministry - He went forth among the nations and called forth Israel, restoring her to life.  Notice that His ministry was primarily centered in Galilee, the Decapolis, Perea, and TransJordan - all the territory that formerly comprised the northern kindom of Israel.  Jesus Himself testifies it: "I am sent to none but the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

As the Shepherd, he called and those who were truly Israel followed (the sheep), while those were not, did not (the goats).

So it is no wonder that they are called "nations" because they were in fact a whole group of diverse nations.  Jesus put forth the call, and a new Israel came forth from among them.

Jarrod

[raggthyme13]

I find there are many proofs for full preterism in Matthew Mark and Luke but then I still believe Satan and his demons influence the world and oppress and possess, so that flies in the face of all prophecy being fulfilled, along with what you have mentioned. At this point I am just a bit confused. I know how I understand Matthew 24 and the comparable chapters in Mark and Luke but I see there is more to the story. I pray those who say Jesus is yet to come are right... in this day and age, we desperately need Him to appear!!!

[lea]

raggthyme,
I understand your concern about us needing Him, but I don't see how we need him to "appear" today.
By grace we have been saved. The Lord is with us now. We lean on Him and trust him for everything good.
Rom.8:28, And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. I don't see why He would prophesy all the things in Revelation to come "soon" and some say he's speaking a foreign language and it couldn't mean that!
I think it's more important to be thankful for God to have sent his Son the first time. The Lord gives us grace daily. Life more abundantly. And peace is priceless. Something I did not get from "the world" before my knowing Christ. If that could make one happy, why anticipate war like in the Bible? Optimism won't allow me to even consider it.

As afar as the devil is concerned. James Russell Stewart who wrote "The Parousia" agreed with you. He believed all prophecies in the Bible about the last days were fulfilled except for Satan in Rev.20. His analysis of "then I saw" or John not saying "and then I saw" were his reasons for not including Rev.20  Satan in the "soon" projection of Revelation.
With that said, since I leave the long interpretations to those who do it for a living- I'll post this commentary by Don Preston about Satan.

http://fullpreterism.com/the-binding-of-satan/

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

...but then I still believe Satan and his demons influence the world and oppress and possess, so that flies in the face of all prophecy being fulfilled.

Why do you believe in literal devils, still?  The only reason I have ever found is that people continue to do evil things.  But people, sadly, people are entirely capable of doing wrong all on their own.  We are perfectly willing to make our own excuses for doing wrong.

At this point I am just a bit confused. I know how I understand Matthew 24 and the comparable chapters in Mark and Luke but I see there is more to the story. I pray those who say Jesus is yet to come are right... in this day and age, we desperately need Him to appear!!!

I'm a partial preterist.  Uhhh... by definition anyway... I don't actually belong to a group somewhere that has a defined doctrine of eschatology to which I subscribe.  Here's what I believe, and maybe it will make some sense to you.

Actually, first... here's what I don't believe.  I don't believe Jesus is coming back again.  That's because I don't believe that Jesus is absent.  I believe that Jesus is here.  Not in the vague omnipresent "hears our prayers from far away" sense.  Like, in a literal sense.  Jesus currently has a Body, that Body is in the world, and Jesus uses that Body to operate here in the world, working to make the world a better place.  And that Body - it's us.  "We are the Body" is literal, not a metaphor.

What I do believe is yet future is the final Judgment.  At some point - and it's still far off - Jesus is going to accomplish His work with mankind.  And then there will be an end of space and time, and those judged worthy will continue to exist in some changed form.  And those who are judged unworthy will not.

Simple, right?  Biblical as well.

[lea]

Wycliffes, while I agree with you about the devil; and the body of Christ being the salt of the earth,
I don't see anything Biblical regarding your last paragraph.

What I do believe is yet future is the final Judgment.  At some point - and it's still far off - Jesus is going to accomplish His work with mankind.  And then there will be an end of space and time, and those judged worthy will continue to exist in some changed form.  And those who are judged unworthy will not.

Don't you think John meant for all time sake in ch.3 below? And that it would hold true even beyond the judgment of Rev.20? I believe a person's salvation is already determined when they die.

John3:16-18
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (emph. mine).

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Wycliffes, while I agree with you about the devil; and the body of Christ being the salt of the earth,
I don't see anything Biblical regarding your last paragraph.

Mostly 1Corinthians 15.  A little of Revelation 20.

25 For he [Christ] must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

It doesn't seem that all enemies have been subdued yet, but perhaps you disagree?

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

This clearly hasn't happened in the literal sense.  Is death here figurative?  It often is, but when I look later in the chapter...

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die!

...it sure looks literal to me.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It sure sounds like there's something after the reign of Christ, even if it's just an ending.  I think we at least agree that we are currently in the reign of Christ?

Don't you think John meant for all time sake in ch.3 below? And that it would hold true even beyond the judgment of Rev.20? I believe a person's salvation is already determined when they die.

John3:16-18
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (emph. mine).

No, I don't .  Continuing one verse, it tells us precisely what the condemnation is:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

That doesn't seem to have much to do with the hereafter to me. It seems to have to do with here and now.

Jarrod

[lea]

by Wycliffes

25 For he [Christ] must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

It doesn't seem that all enemies have been subdued yet, but perhaps you disagree?

Eph.1-...20which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come. 22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church,...
Sounds like it already happened and is happening.(age to come) Yes Christ reigns forever.

(Rev11:15-18)  15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet. There were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world now belongs to our Lord and to his Anointed, and he will reign forever and ever." 16 The twenty-four elders who sat on their thrones before God prostrated themselves and worshiped God 17 and said:

"We give thanks to you, Lord God almighty,
    who are and who were.
For you have assumed your great power
    and have established your reign.
18
The nations raged,
    but your wrath has come,
    and the time for the dead to be judged,
and to recompense your servants, the prophets,
    and the holy ones and those who fear your name,
    the small and the great alike,
and to destroy those who destroy the earth." emph. mine.

by Wycliffes:

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

This clearly hasn't happened in the literal sense.  Is death here figurative?  It often is, but when I look later in the chapter...

This is spiritual death, sin-death, and the devil who had the power of death.
-
by W:

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die!

...it sure looks literal to me.

This is literal. He's speaking of the physically dead to the Corinthians. They were afraid their dead loved ones that died before Christ came, so they got baptized for the dead.

Quote from: lea on Tue Nov 26, 2019 - 13:23:47

Don't you think John meant for all time sake in ch.3 below? And that it would hold true even beyond the judgment of Rev.20? I believe a person's salvation is already determined when they die.

    John3:16-18
    16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (emph. mine).

No, I don't .  Continuing one verse, it tells us precisely what the condemnation is:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

That doesn't seem to have much to do with the hereafter to me. It seems to have to do with here and now.

Jarrod

Who then can be saved, God will save. If they have never heard or couldn't hear or understand the gospel. I don't know of any other way the Bible says one can be saved but by John 3:16. 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

This is spiritual death, sin-death, and the devil who had the power of death.
-
by W:This is literal. He's speaking of the physically dead to the Corinthians. They were afraid their dead loved ones that died before Christ came, so they got baptized for the dead.

These two verse are in the same chapter, just 2 verses separate them.  I find it unlikely that "death" is symbolic in one and literal in the other.

[lea]

These two verse are in the same chapter, just 2 verses separate them.  I find it unlikely that "death" is symbolic in one and literal in the other.

From 1Cor.15:20-28, Paul describes the last enemy, death, is to be destroyed.
Beginning with v.29, Paul is describing those who are physically dead (baptized for the dead), and also the effects of denying the Resurrection.
Remarkably Paul comes back to speaking about  being spiritually "alive" and changed for the living at the covenantal change in Rev. 11 (ark of the covenant seen in heaven). Paul says the physically dead would arise and the living would be changed. Just as is Adam all died... this is the broken covenant which man carried the "sin" from. And "the last Adam" who became a life-giving Spirit for us.
I believe that is why Hebrews states that He will appear a second time for those who were waiting for Him- not for "sin" but for "salvation."
Their salvation was not complete until Jesus' return. The kingdom that Jesus handed up to the Father was the old covenant.
"Then comes the end." from 1Cor.15:24. The "end of what?" The end of the "ministration of death," the Law, the sin death.
The New heaven and earth came. The "heaven and earth" given at Sinai passed away.

I realize I made a few points here from scripture, so I hope one can decipher through them as I have.
If not, then please feel free to start your own topic if needed.