legalistic grace

[mike]

Good article.

I have been guilty of the very problem that Bobby describes. It is a good reminder that we need to be gracious when we speak of grace.

Mike

[Bob Valentine]

Mike thank you for taking the time to read my article.  I too have often been guilty of affirming the "doctrine" of grace but have often not LIVED the life of grace.  

Transformation by God's grace is what the Christian walk is all about and I pray that all of us can do it together.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine

[Lee Freeman]

I can identify with what the article said, too. When I first came out of a legalistic mindset I was very inmpatient and intolerant of people still a slave to it. I wanted to argue everybody's legalism out of them which, as I soon learned, was never going to happen. Rarely have I actually seen anyone convinced to change their views because someone else argued them into a different position-certainly not in religious matters, but that's what I thought I could do-if I could just convince all those legalists they were wrong, they'd see grace and respond to it. Now I understand that what I was trying to do wasn't genuinely attempting to minister to brethren enslaved to a system of works-righteousness, but trying to one-up them and win a theological argument. I finally realized that what I was doing was all about me and not them, so I stopped doing it. I realise now that people have to respond to God's grace-it can't be forced on them nor them argued into accepting it. Occasionally I still need to be reminded of this.

Pax.

[Jimbob]

Good article, Bobby, too true.

[admin]

I remember being very frustrated with a friend of mine who was a "legalistic gracer." He would get mad at people who thought they shouldn't clap in worship to the point of trying to force them too or telling them that God did not approve of "boring" worship. I finally had to tell him that they could get to heaven without clapping and that it was really none of his business how they worshipped God.

Bottom line is, just because someone is convicted about an issue, that DOESN'T make them a legalist. It just means they are convicted of something that you aren't. And there's nothing wrong with that.

My grandfather is one of the most godly men I know. He has a very gentle spirit, quietly helps the poor without getting any attention for it, and prays more than any human that I know. But he believes that instruments should not be used in worship, that women should not preach to men, that you have to be baptized to be saved, and that you should not clap while you sing. And you know what? That's ok! He is still safe in God's hand. He is still a Christian and still loves God as much as anyone who thinks clapping to instruments is the cat's meow.

[Jimbob]

Bottom line is, just because someone is convicted about an issue, that DOESN'T make them a legalist. It just means they are convicted of something that you aren't.

:amen: Lee.

[DCR]

There is such a thing as a "close-minded liberal."  I would personally rather be an "open-minded conservative."

A lot of it comes down to just showing respect to the views of others when it comes to disputable matters.  I think that's what Romans 14 is all about.

[johntwayne]

Overall a good article, but I had to smile at this one...

Brother "hunting season" is banned in the kingdom of God!

The verse that came to mind was...

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
(2 Corinthians 10:3-5 NASB)

[/color]

[boringoldguy]

There is such a thing as a "close-minded liberal."  

I prefer to call the "grace Nazis."    The ones who continually accuse others of trying to "work their way into heaven."

[Bill]

Thanks Bobby. I needed to be reminded.  My thought was why is he getting on me.  The answer of course is I needed it.

[Bob Valentine]

Thanks for the interaction with the article.  It was a difficult piece for me to write and I am not sure if it is totally what I intend it to be.  

But I am convinced that grace needs to move beyond someting we simply affirm and actually start to live and die by.  If grace extends to those who fail in sin and then surely it extends to those who fail in understanding.  Grace moves us to be patient, long suffering, loving.  Grace moves me to sacrifice my "freedom" for the sake of my brother/sister who does not see it the way I do . . . that is what Paul urges anyway.  I am advocating not simply a grace revolution in terms of theology but a grace revolution in relationships.

One word for BOG, I am not sure how calling folks "Nazis" moves the discussion forward at all.  

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI
www.sside-church.org

[Lee Freeman]

A lot of people I assumed were legalists because they held some conservative views turned out not to be at all. So I had to drop my assumptions about people.

Pax.

[marc]

I was talking to someone about grace the other night, and the word "natural" popped up.  The idea that grace is a natural thing, something that happens naturally and guides the way we live.  I think that maybe too often grace isn't natural enough for me yet, and I want to defend it and fight for it and even wield it as a weapon.  Grace isn't something that separates us from others, instead it should be something that lets us love, accept and, yes, respect others.  It should lead us to maturity.

[memmy]

Grace isn't a wage paid to us by our hard work, it is a gift paid for us by our Savior.

It then allows us to be free to share it with others.

Praise be to our Lord!   :clap:

Memmy :D

[Serenity432001]

Thanks for the reminder Bobby.  I, too, needed this as well.  I also like what Lee(admin) said about his dad.  I felt the same way.  My dad lived a grace centered life but sometimes preached what I would call legalism.  Often I think a true grace centered life doesn't have to "preach" it at all--just live it and that's not near as easy to do but is much more effective.

[memmy]

I agree Serenity. If we could learn to just share this gift, and leave the preaching out, we would all be better off.

It is just soooo hard to escape from doing that when we grow up that way, don't you think?

Thanks Bobby too, for sharing this topic.

Memmy  :D

[boringoldguy]

One word for BOG, I am not sure how calling folks "Nazis" moves the discussion forward at all.  

It's been my experience that absent a complete and open airing of the positions of the opposing parties,  there can be no progress in the discussions.

The people I consider "grace Nazis" (and there are a couple who post here) may disagree with my perception of them,  and are free to do so.   But until they acknowledge the reality that this is my perception,  discussions can go nowhere.   They can't hope to convince me of anything without first taking into account what I already believe.

It's much like the people who attribute national catostrophes to racism.    I consider that charge to absolutely absurd.    But until I accept that the Jesse Jackson crowd believes that charge,   it's impossible to have a discussion with them.

If your goal is to paper over serious doctrinal differences,  then calling people Nazis probably isn't helpful.     If your goal is to reach an understanding,  it's essential.

Of course,  one characteristic of "grace Nazis" is an insistence that doctrine isn't really all that important (except, of course, for their own doctrinal positions - which they will insist arent' doctrines at all, but rather "essentials" or the "core gospel".)

[ConnieLard]

"... a grace revolution in relationships."  I like that.  I need that.  I wish to embody that.  It's hard to do, though.  That's where the Spirit comes in.  Less of self and more of Thee.  I'm really not very good at it, yet.  Maybe someday......

[johntwayne]

One word for BOG, I am not sure how calling folks "Nazis" moves the discussion forward at all.  

I am sure that calling conservatives "legalistist" does not move the discussion forward either.[/color]

[Bob Valentine]

One word for BOG, I am not sure how calling folks "Nazis" moves the discussion forward at all.  

I am sure that calling conservatives "legalistist" does not move the discussion forward either.[/color]

I did not call anyone a legalist.  If I did where did I do so?  It is precisely this kind of negative reactions to one another: "grace nazis" or "legalist" that hinders our common growth.   This is the very phenomena that I address in the article itself.  

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine

[Bob Valentine]

I was talking to someone about grace the other night, and the word "natural" popped up.  The idea that grace is a natural thing, something that happens naturally and guides the way we live.  I think that maybe too often grace isn't natural enough for me yet, and I want to defend it and fight for it and even wield it as a weapon.  Grace isn't something that separates us from others, instead it should be something that lets us love, accept and, yes, respect others.  It should lead us to maturity.

I do not believe grace is a "natural" thing.  Grace is supernatural derived from the blood and inspired by the Spirit.  Philip Yancy observes that the world is full of "ungrace."  The "natural" thing to do is to call people (including "family" members names), the natural thing is to defend our "honor."  The natural thing is to prove our correctness.

The unnatural thing is to forgive 70x7, to bear insult, to go the extra mile(s), to bless those who persecute you.  These things are all the result of a live absorbed with grace.  And they are quite unnatural.  But they are SUPERnatural.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
www.sside-church.org

[johntwayne]

One word for BOG, I am not sure how calling folks "Nazis" moves the discussion forward at all.  

I am sure that calling conservatives "legalistist" does not move the discussion forward either.

I did not call anyone a legalist.  If I did where did I do so?  It is precisely this kind of negative reactions to one another: "grace nazis" or "legalist" that hinders our common growth.   This is the very phenomena that I address in the article itself.  

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine

I did not charge you specifically with doing so "in your article." It has been my experience that "grace centered" people are often anything but that when they speak of conservatives and conservatism.  That was BOG's point, and it is mine, and I thought it was yours when you spoke of the "closed minded liberal."  Was I mistaken?[/color]

[marc]

I was talking to someone about grace the other night, and the word "natural" popped up.  The idea that grace is a natural thing, something that happens naturally and guides the way we live.  I think that maybe too often grace isn't natural enough for me yet, and I want to defend it and fight for it and even wield it as a weapon.  Grace isn't something that separates us from others, instead it should be something that lets us love, accept and, yes, respect others.  It should lead us to maturity.

I do not believe grace is a "natural" thing.  Grace is supernatural derived from the blood and inspired by the Spirit.  Philip Yancy observes that the world is full of "ungrace."  The "natural" thing to do is to call people (including "family" members names), the natural thing is to defend our "honor."  The natural thing is to prove our correctness.

The unnatural thing is to forgive 70x7, to bear insult, to go the extra mile(s), to bless those who persecute you.  These things are all the result of a live absorbed with grace.  And they are quite unnatural.  But they are SUPERnatural.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
www.sside-church.org

I see I need to explain what I meant a little more, but do not have the time to do so now.  This isn't at all what I meant by "natural". I'm talking about natural in a different context than you are, I think.

Perhaps "intrinsic" would be a better word, but I don't have time to explain now.[/color]

[ConnieLard]

As we live more in step with the Spirit, grace tends to flow from us in a "natural" way.  I've observed that in people.  My own father, for one, as Serenity pointed out (she's my sister, therefore we have the same father :D ).  That's how I want to be.

[marc]

Yep; that's it.  And that's the way God intended it to be.

I was going to go into a lot of detail about the conversation I was referencing, but I realized I would end up writing a book if I did so.  But what we were talking about was how that grace was neither something that was set in opposition to the rest of God's word or something that meant that holiness was unimportant, but a natural, in the sense of the way God intended things to be, part of God's plan.  That grace, when understood correctly, flowed along with scripture and informed it, and fit in perfectly with our surrendering our lives to God.

[Serenity432001]

The discussion about grace being natural or un-natural is very interesting.  I think I agree with both ideas.  As far as human nature it is natural to be selfish but once grace is truely experienced then it is "natural"  to be loving and unselfish.

[janine]

If you can align yourself with the Son so submissively that grace flows out of you in a natural way -- that's the way!  That's what we're after.  And the main way to promote it is to just live it, with discussing it and championing it coming second, sometimes a distant second.

[charlie]

Read this:

The "natural" thing to do is to call people (including "family" members) names, the natural thing is to defend our "honor."  The natural thing is to prove our correctness.

and then, this:

I did not call anyone a legalist.  If I did where did I do so?

Don't anyone think for a minute that I'm trying to catch Bobby in a "natural" moment in an effort to discredit him. Quite the contrary. This just shows that he knows what he's talking about and that he's right in what he said in his article.

All of us, every one, is often guilty of ungraciousness. Let's help one another to improve rather than scratch and claw and fight our way on top of each other in our little game of king of the dirt pile.[/color]

[Jimbob]

All of us, every one, is often guilty of ungraciousness. Let's help one another to improve rather than scratch and claw and fight our way on top of each other in our little game of king of the dirt pile.

Amen, Charlie.  :help:

[Joby]

hello... i am new here.... i've been out of legalisiam for about two years now.PRAISE GOD.
GRACE is the key word. Our small groups are doing a work book called "Grace Walk" by Grace Walk Ministries. It is a great work book. It's about knowing our identity in Jesus Christ. Have you ever said to yourself "There's gotta be more to the christian life than what I'm experiencing?" WELL THERE IS. We have to allow Jesus to live His life through us. We have to surrender all our self efforts. We can't do anything. A lot of christians (and i was one of them) try so hard to live the "christian life". They think that if they do this for God or that for God then He will be pleased.God doesn't need us for anything. But He wants us. How amazing is that. He wants us to allow Him to live in us and for us to rely totally on Him for everything. So maybe you might like to look into that work book. There's so much more to say but time will not permit me too.

[spurly]

Thanks for the post JOBY, and welcome to the open arms of God's grace.  Now if we could just get the Hindus, Muslims, Budhists, and legalistic Christians into God's embrace of grace!

[admin]

There's a new article about this on Grace-Centered. It's at http://www.gracecentered.com/extremes_in_churches_of_Christ.htm

[Cross-titled]

There's a new article about this on Grace-Centered. It's at http://www.gracecentered.com/extremes_in_churches_of_Christ.htm

This article and the one by Joe Beam are enlightening and thought provoking indeed.  I was unable to find the original article that spawned this thread from September of 2005.



(Modified post and withdrew a question)