Temporal Salvation?

[Netchaplain]

The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called "eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from "eternal damnation" (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from "everlasting punishment" (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

[Netchaplain]

I believe it comes down to the fact that there are two groups of people professing Christianity. Those who genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness; and those who falsely profess faith in Christianity (Jas 2:18) who cease from appearing to lives godly. Thus what the latter departs from is not faith, but from the doctrine of faith, which they never truly entered into.

[4WD]

Another attempt to legitimize the false doctrine of Once-Saved-Always-Saved.

[Netchaplain]

Another attempt to legitimize the false doctrine of Once-Saved-Always-Saved.

Or success to believers of OSAS.

[Rella]

I believe it comes down to the fact that there are two groups of people professing Christianity. Those who genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness; and those who falsely profess faith in Christianity (Jas 2:18) who cease from appearing to lives godly. Thus what the latter departs from is not faith, but from the doctrine of faith, which they never truly entered into.

Is it your belief that one living as the best as they can within their faith and belief cannot stumble, for a season, and cease from living a godly life,for a time or time and a half?
godly lives for a time?

[Netchaplain]

Is it your belief that one living as the best as they can within their faith and belief cannot stumble, for a season, and cease from living a godly life,for a time or time and a half?
godly lives for a time?

Hi, and interesting, but I'm not sure of your meaning. Thanks for the input!

[Rella]

Hi, and interesting, but I'm not sure of your meaning. Thanks for the input!

You said

"I believe it comes down to the fact that there are two groups of people professing Christianity.

Those who genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness;

and those who falsely profess faith in Christianity (Jas 2:18) who cease from appearing to lives godly.

Thus what the latter departs from is not faith, but from the doctrine of faith, which they never truly entered into."

I agree that there are those Christians who walk and talk the life as they should.
They do  genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness.  (I might slightly qualify that with by outward appearances... but that is another subject)

I also agree that there are those who do falsely profess faith in Christianity  who not only cease from appearing to lives godly, but live their lives as the Frank Sinatra song says.... "I did it My way."

We all know both of these types of professing Christians and both types are filling
church pews every Sunday.... (when we do not have a pandemic)

But my point is there is another that really is within its own category.

There are those who have and do profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness.

In other words they walk the walk and talk the talk from their heart felt faith and
belief... and may even continue to project that outwards to others but for whatever reason can falter in their walk and be as your second example of those who cease from appearing to lives godly,  or even live a secret life known only to themselves and God... but outwardly others would not know.

Rather they become back slidden. For just a certain amount of time.

[RB]

Temporal Salvation?

Without going into the different senses that the slavation/saved/save is used in the scriptures, we will only add these very few thoughts.

Our salvation from sin and condemnation was secured 100% by the faith, obedience, and righteousness of ONE PERSON: Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

In essence that is the gospel in its purity that the scriptures will only give support to, all others is another gospel, which truly is NOT another gospel, but a corruption of the gospel of God concerning his holy Son in whom alone he was and is well pleased in and through whom we have the GIFT of eternal life given freely by grace through HIS FAITH as the Son of Man!

He is the second Adam, that did what the first Adam, could not do for his posterity, he obeyed perfectly from a pure heart of love toward God all of the commandments of God, in thoughts, words, and deeds, from conception to his death on the cross~he acted not as a private person, but as the HEAD of the elect generation of people chosen by God before the foundation of the earth, or, from eternity past. Consider: 1st Peter 2:9; 2nd Timothy 1:9; etc.

THIS IS all ALL of my salvation wherein I trust to receive eternal life in that day~I DARE NOT trust in even ONE good deed that I may have done for I KNOW that in doing so, sin IS MIXED with my very best efforts to please God~THERBY, my works cannot be even considered as a means of entering into eternal life.

THIS IS the gospel that will be supported by God's testimony and that exalts God's mercy to men/women who were at enmity against God, without any spiritual strength to deliver themselves. Scriptural proof: Romans 5:6-10; 8;7; etc.

David understood that the gift of eternal life was secured by two immutable acts of God: his oath/faithfulness and his promises. (Read Hebrews 6:13-20.

David wrote a whole Psalm singing of God's faithfulness. Read Psalm 89 and then dare to say that the elect are not eternally secured by JESUS" righteousness the TRUE DAVID of this Psalm~who is SO BOLD as to do so?

Psalm 89 in part~"I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations. For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints..................................Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah."

These words of David CANNOT be gainsay against without being judge by God for wrestling and corrupting his word. I would NOT want to be the man that attempts to do so.

[4WD]

I believe it comes down to the fact that there are two groups of people professing Christianity. Those who genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness; and those who falsely profess faith in Christianity (Jas 2:18) who cease from appearing to lives godly. Thus what the latter departs from is not faith, but from the doctrine of faith, which they never truly entered into.

You need to define, biblically, what you think the doctrine of faith is. And what do you mean by falsely professing faith in Christianity?  It seems to me that you, like far too many, attach a religious meaning to the English word "faith" which simply does not appear in the Greek language. James' message is basically asking how can you say that you believe in God and then not do what He says.  And note that throughout the Bible there is the difference between believing something or someone and believing IN something or someone.  There is no Greek equivalent for the English word "faith"; it is simply "belief IN".  The only real conundrum with James' teaching is whether there is some measure for which one's works are insufficient to demonstrate one's faith.  And if there is, neither you nor I can answer that question for anyone else and perhaps not even for ourselves.  And it certainly cannot be used to determine who might be falsely professing faith in Christianity, whatever that is.

[Netchaplain]

It seems to me that you, like far too many, attach a religious meaning to the English word "faith" which simply does not appear in the Greek language.

I don't think we can get past this comment to get at the rest of your reply. But in reply to it, the Hebrew is 'emuwn. The general word for faith in the Greek is pistis; for weak faith, oligopistos.

Maybe we are not discussing the same issue or subject.

[4WD]

I don't think we can get past this comment to get at the rest of your reply. But in reply to it, the Hebrew is 'emuwn. The general word for faith in the Greek is pistis; for weak faith, oligopistos.

Not completely accurate. I haven't the time to get into it right now, but I will come back later to explain.

Maybe we are not discussing the same issue or subject.

I think it is the same subject, but perhaps a different understanding of the subject.

[Netchaplain]

Not completely accurate. I haven't the time to get into it right now, but I will come back later to explain.
I think it is the same subject, but perhaps a different understanding of the subject.

For instructional purposes, the word "faith" appears only twice in the Hebrew, OT (Deu 32:20; Hab 2:4).

The general word for faith in the Greek is pistis:  https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4102&t=KJV

For weak faith, oligopistos:   https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3640&t=KJV

[4WD]

Perhaps it is not worth belaboring the point.  However I will address it briefly.  There is a difference between believing God and believing in God.  The Greek word for believe is πιστεύω -  pistueuo. The Greek for believe in is typically presented as πιστεύω εν or πιστεύω ἐπὶ or πιστεύω εις.  Very often the prepositions εν, ἐπὶ, εις or similar do not appear and the meaning is implied by the context.  Believing something or someone is mental assent, i.e., accepting that the something is true.  Believing in something or someone is more than that; it is mental assent plus trust. All of that is in the verb form.  A similar consideration is found in the noun form.

The English word faith means something more and different from belief and we typically use the words differently. Faith is belief plus trust. The same is true in Greek, but there are not two different words in the Greek; the difference is context.  It turns out that the Greek word πίστις - pistis  in the NT almost always takes on the meaning of the English word faith; however the difference is still there.

Having presented those brief distinctions, I would still like to hear what you think the "Doctrine of Faith" is.  As to anyone falsely professing faith, you have no ability nor authority to judge that. It seems to me that what you are doing is creating a scenario to support your OSAS theology; a theology which must assume that free will either never existed or ceases to exist with someone once he/she has been saved.

[Netchaplain]

It seems to me that what you are doing is creating a scenario to support your OSAS theology

I won't mind replying if you can dispense with being accusatory!

[4WD]

I won't mind replying if you can dispense with being accusatory!

How is what I said any more accusatory than what you said earlier, i.e.,

Thus being temporarily saved from "everlasting punishment" (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

[Netchaplain]

How is what I said any more accusatory than what you said earlier, i.e.,

What you stated was directed to me (which I always forgive), but my statement isn't directed to any individual.

[4WD]

What you stated was directed to me (which I always forgive), but my statement isn't directed to any individual.

Netchaplain, your statement was directed at every individual that doesn't believe as you do about OSAS.  Would you be less offended if I revise my statement to say something like, "Thinking that one who has believed in God and has been saved can never again disbelieve and be lost is terribly ignorant of what the Bible actually says?"  I doubt it; I think you would see yourself in such a statement just as I saw myself in your statement.

But let me assume your statement about anyone holding to your notion of "temporary salvation" being oxymoronic was not intended as offensive but was instead intended to be simply a statement which you considered generally a scriptural statement of fact.  I would still like you to define your terms.  Namely what is the "doctrine of faith" which you think precludes anyone who has believed and has been saved to ever cease to believe and thus become lost?

[RB]

Namely what is the "doctrine of faith" which you think precludes anyone who has believed and has been saved to ever cease to believe and thus become lost?

I'll allow Netchaplain to answer that question, then afterward, I desire to answer it, since I'm pretty sure his answer will be different from mine~ maybe not, but I will wait for him to answer the question directed to him.

[Netchaplain]

Netchaplain, your statement was directed at every individual that doesn't believe as you do about OSAS.  Would you be less offended if I revise my statement to say something like, "Thinking that one who has believed in God and has been saved can never again disbelieve and be lost is terribly ignorant of what the Bible actually says?"  I doubt it; I think you would see yourself in such a statement just as I saw myself in your statement.

I never take offense and always forgive,One can think they believe and consider it revised, as your example is not directed to only me but all like me. Singling out an individual it's not the same as a generalized statement concerning many others, unless you named them.
 

Namely what is the "doctrine of faith" which you think precludes anyone who has believed and has been saved to ever cease to believe and thus become lost?

One can think they believe and not realize until latter that they really don't. But one cannot truly believe and then truly disbelieve.

The doctrine of faith is truly believing in the Lord Jesus' expiation for your sin, with evidence of the Spirit working His fruit in you.

[4WD]

One can think they believe and not realize until latter that they really don't. But one cannot truly believe and then truly disbelieve.

That only tells me that you do not understand what it means to believe  --  in anything.

The doctrine of faith is truly believing in the Lord Jesus' expiation for your sin, with evidence of the Spirit working His fruit in you.

Please explain what it means to believe but not "truly" believe.  And please tell us precisely how much evidence of the Spirit working His fruit in someone is necessary.

You have presented a lot of words but so little understanding.  What do you think it means to "believe"?  How can you believe but not "truly" believe?  That doesn't even make sense.  If you can, please give me an example of something that you, Netchaplain, believe but do not "truly" believe.

[Netchaplain]

That only tells me that you do not understand what it means to believe  --  in anything.
Please explain what it means to believe but not "truly" believe.  And please tell us precisely how much evidence of the Spirit working His fruit in someone is necessary.

You have presented a lot of words but so little understanding.  What do you think it means to "believe"?  How can you believe but not "truly" believe?  That doesn't even make sense.  If you can, please give me an example of something that you, Netchaplain, believe but do not "truly" believe.

No offense intended, but I'm not understanding you enough to comment.

[4WD]

No offense intended, but I'm not understanding you enough to comment.

No offense taken.  The reason that you are not understanding me enough to comment is, I believe, because you have an inappropriate view of what faith is, how one comes to faith, what it means to have faith.  I see a tendency within Christendom by various groups to jargonize rather ordinary words to take on meanings and connotations different from what the Bible actually intends. The word "faith" for many is one of those words.  Please explain to me what you think is the difference between believing the gospel and truly believing the gospel or the difference between believing in God and truly believing in God? 

[Netchaplain]

I believe, because you have an inappropriate view of what faith is, how one comes to faith, what it means to have faith. 

If your view of faith is more than belief in the Lord Jesus, then our views are not the same concerning faith. Other than this, I'm not sure what you are after. But I guess we can keep trying to understand one another if you like.

[4WD]

If your view of faith is more than belief in the Lord Jesus, then our views are not the same concerning faith. Other than this, I'm not sure what you are after. But I guess we can keep trying to understand one another if you like.

If you think that faith leaves you devoid of free will, as it seems to me that you do, then in fact your view of faith is more than belief in the Lord Jesus.  You have implied some significant difference between believing in the Lord Jesus and "truly believing" in the Lord Jesus.  I think I know what you are trying to say, but I do not think it is correct.

In the parable of the seed (Luke 8) verse 13 says  (ESV) And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.   Are you suggesting that when Jesus said "they believe for a while", that he wasn't actually speaking about "truly believing"?  I think it is significant that they are described those as "falling away".  You cannot fall away from where you haven't been.  The parable of the seed and so much of the NT is a plea to believe and not fall away.  And that to me is a direct rebuttal of OSAS.

[Netchaplain]

In the parable of the seed (Luke 8) verse 13 says  (ESV) And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.   Are you suggesting that when Jesus said "they believe for a while", that he wasn't actually speaking about "truly believing"?  I think it is significant that they are described those as "falling away".  You cannot fall away from where you haven't been.  The parable of the seed and so much of the NT is a plea to believe and not fall away.  And that to me is a direct rebuttal of OSAS.

I just understand it that apostates (unregenerate in my opinion) fall from a "profession-only" appearance and not from faith, which I believe is permanent in this life.

The Lord said "people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoureth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me" (Mat 15:8). This is direct reference to not professing faith truthfully (a said-faith only; nominal i.e., in name only).

"Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit,...." There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace (J Gill).

Gill mentioned Simon, a sorcerer, who obviously made a show of belief (I think his belief was only of what he saw and it doesn't say it was in the Lord Jesus), but not a proof of it, but rather the opposite (Acts 8:9-24).

"Then Simon himself believed also,...." With an historical and temporary faith, as that Jesus was the Messiah, &c. or at least he pretended, to believe this, and professed that he did believe, what others did, and Philip preached:

"And when he was baptized"; upon profession of his faith, which he so artfully made, that Philip could not discover his hypocrisy: but taking him to be a sincere believer, admitted him to baptism.

[4WD]

Jesus said "believe"; He didn't say "profess".  Believing something or believing in something has no permanence associated with it, no matter the subject being considered. Professing may come from either a believer or a nonbeliever.  Jesus said and meant "believe" and there is absolutely no reason to think otherwise except for a [false] preconceived theological perspective.

[4WD]

"Then Simon himself believed also,...." With an historical and temporary faith, as that Jesus was the Messiah, &c. or at least he pretended, to believe this, and professed that he did believe, what others did, and Philip preached:

"And when he was baptized"; upon profession of his faith, which he so artfully made, that Philip could not discover his hypocrisy: but taking him to be a sincere believer, admitted him to baptism.

There is nothing in that episode that suggests that Simon's belief was pretentious in the least.  There is no indication that Simon professed but didn't really believe. In fact the words in Acts declares that  Even Simon himself believed.... (Acts 8:13) The problem in Simon's case was that he saw what the laying on of hands of the apostles [not baptism] produced and, being a practicing magician by trade, saw the great financial rewards that would bring him.  Here again, there is nothing said about his faith, his belief in what he had been told.  What is pointed out there, among other things, is that becoming a Christian, being saved from our sins does not turn us into sinless beings.  And what was Simon's response to Peter's admonishment?  He said,  "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me" (Acts 8:24). And that was most definitely the plea of one who believed, not just one who professed.

And by the way, we are never told what Simon's eventual status before God was.  I think probably that Peter prayer for Simon as Simon asked and hopefully God granted Peter's prayer for Simon.  But we are not told Simon's final outcome.

[Netchaplain]

There is nothing in that episode that suggests that Simon's belief was pretentious in the least. 

I think it's clear to see that Simon didn't want to believe in Christ because he didn't want to ask Him to forgive him (v 22), but rather Paul ask for him (v 24); But forgiveness must be sought from self and not another, for none can answer nor ask for God's forgiveness for another.

Neither do I think Simon was concerned that he was "not right in the sight of God" (v 21); he manifested his "wickedness" in what he did (v 22); and resulted "in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity." He appeared only concerned about his "money" and his life "perishing" (v 20). I see more evidence that he continued as he was than asking God to forgive him and be saved.

[soterion]

Netchaplain,

We have engaged before and I seem to recall you have issues with believing in freewill, at least at some point in the person's change from heathen to Christian. To me, this is the root problem with your accepting that a person who truly believes in the Lord Jesus can at some point in the future change his or her mind.

This I cannot understand. It makes perfect sense to me, biblically, that God wants faith and love toward Him to be freely given, by both the new convert and the old veteran. If there is no freewill after a true acceptance of Jesus unto salvation from sin, then anything given by that convert is constrained. Faithfulness that is not given from a free heart to choose is not faithfulness at all, it is manipulation.

How can God accept worship as being true if it comes from a heart that cannot choose otherwise.

[RB]

We have engaged before and I seem to recall you have issues with believing in freewill, at least at some point in the person's change from heathen to Christian. To me, this is the root problem with your accepting that a person who truly believes in the Lord Jesus can at some point in the future change his or her mind.

I'm chomping at the bit just to be part of this, but have decided to allow these two men to have their say between themselves before I say anything to either of them. BUT, since you jumped in I will only speak to you my good friend, and still allow these two men to continue on, which I think is a good thing and it would seem reasonable that more can be accomplished by doing so.

We have engaged before and I seem to recall you have issues with believing in freewill, at least at some point in the person's change from heathen to Christian.

Yes, by the same power that the Spirit of God used in resurrecting Jesus Christ from the grave, is also used in spiritually quickening us from being dead in trespasses and sin to a new man that is created after the image of Jesus~this man has a FREE WILL that is not in bondage to the Devil and sin. This new man cannot sin, impossible, just as its Giver never did ! So, my brother based on so many truths concerning the true gospel of Jesus Christ, our salvation from sin and condemnation is ETERNAL.

There is a salvation that is not connected with salvation from sin and condemnation that is NOT eternal, "but temporal" and can be lost just as Lot's built upon wood, hay and stubble and all of his practical works shall be destroy in that day, yet he himself SAVED. We all see where he ended up~so much different than the way Enoch and Elijah ended up. The parable of the sower was given for the very reason, a parable that few seem to truly understand.

Enough for now.

[4WD]

I think it's clear to see that Simon didn't want to believe in Christ because he didn't want to ask Him to forgive him (v 22), but rather Paul ask for him (v 24);

Netchaplain, it says quite clearly that Simon believed: Even Simon himself believed.... (Act 8:13 ) I really do not understand why you refuse to accept what the Bible says.  There can be no disputing that Simon believed.

But forgiveness must be sought from self and not another, for none can answer nor ask for God's forgiveness for another.

From Jesus' own words:  Luke 23:34  But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing."

Neither do I think Simon was concerned that he was "not right in the sight of God" (v 21); he manifested his "wickedness" in what he did (v 22); and resulted "in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity." He appeared only concerned about his "money" and his life "perishing" (v 20). I see more evidence that he continued as he was than asking God to forgive him and be saved.

The evidence you see is nothing more than your own incorrect preconceived view of things.  Clearly Simon was concerned. He begged that what Peter warned him about would not happen.  And yes he asked Peter to pray for him.  Since it does not say otherwise, the only legitimate conclusion that you can come to is that Simon did what Peter told him to do, namely, that he repent and pray to the Lord.

I think you, as so many have done, have missed the central key message in this story about Simon, namely that the empowering by the Holy Spirit to work miracles is not part of the salvation process.  Beyond direct action of God Himself, the only way that was accomplished was by the laying on of the hands of the apostles. Not even Philip, who had that empowering by the Holy Spirit to work miracles, could pass that on to another.  Imparting that power is the reason the apostles, Peter and John, journeyed down to Samaria.  Moreover such empowerment is not a part of the salvation process. That comes by way of forgiveness of sin which in turn comes from hearing, believing, repenting and being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ as recorded in Acts, chapter two.

[Netchaplain]

It's okay with me if we're 180 with one another on this issue, but I would like to mention, and not out of contention with our beliefs, that I cannot find a commentary that concludes Simon changed from what he was. I also found the link below interesting about him in recorded history and wanted to share it with you for information purposes only, and not a weight-debate.

Blessings Friend in Christ!

[4WD]

What do you think the message is in the verse that says "when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed..." (Acts 12,13) ?  I must assume that you think that none of that believing by all those, including Simon, listening to Philip accomplished anything.  Interesting since I think you are basically a faith alone type.  I find that terribly, terribly sad.

I would point out that in the Greek it says Σίμων  ἐπίστευσε.  The word ἐπίστευσε is from πιστεύω [pisteuō] which means, according to Strong's:

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

But you obviously disagree.

[soterion]

I'm chomping at the bit just to be part of this, but have decided to allow these two men to have their say between themselves before I say anything to either of them. BUT, since you jumped in I will only speak to you my good friend, and still allow these two men to continue on, which I think is a good thing and it would seem reasonable that more can be accomplished by doing so. Yes, by the same power that the Spirit of God used in resurrecting Jesus Christ from the grave, is also used in spiritually quickening us from being dead in trespasses and sin to a new man that is created after the image of Jesus~this man has a FREE WILL that is not in bondage to the Devil and sin. This new man cannot sin, impossible, just as its Giver never did ! So, my brother based on so many truths concerning the true gospel of Jesus Christ, our salvation from sin and condemnation is ETERNAL.

There is a salvation that is not connected with salvation from sin and condemnation that is NOT eternal, "but temporal" and can be lost just as Lot's built upon wood, hay and stubble and all of his practical works shall be destroy in that day, yet he himself SAVED. We all see where he ended up~so much different than the way Enoch and Elijah ended up. The parable of the sower was given for the very reason, a parable that few seem to truly understand.

Enough for now.

We'll just have to disagree. There are way too many warnings given to believers about falling away from the faith unto condemnation, being cut off due to faithlessness, etc.

[RB]

We'll just have to disagree. There are way too many warnings given to believers about falling away from the faith unto condemnation, being cut off due to faithlessness, etc.