1000 Year Reign

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

The Scriptures do not speak of a "bodily resurrection"; rather it speaks of the resurrection of the dead.  It also says, that the body that dies is not the body that is raised (1 Cor 15:35-37).

Resurrection of the dead, yes.  But the word "dead" is nekros - corpses.  That sounds corporeal to me.

[4WD]

Resurrection of the dead, yes.  But the word "dead" is nekros - corpses.  That sounds corporeal to me.

Still it is not the body that is resurrected.  It is the dead person, not the dead body.  The Bible often uses the euphemistic description of one sleeping to describe the one being resurrected.  I think perhaps that is more than just a customary usage of biblical times.  It speaks to the condition, not the physical substance, of the person. It seems clear to me that Paul's description in 1 Corinthians 15:44-54 speaks very strongly against any suggestion of a "bodily" resurrection. 

[Jaime]

If Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection, wasn't his bodily scars present and visible?

[3 Resurrections]

Absolutely, Jaime, which Jesus used to prove to the disciples that "it is I MYSELF" that they were touching and handling.  That was no "euphemism" which they were holding on to.

Most definitely Christ's "physical substance" was there in person in a glorified, incorruptible state, giving the lie to the Sadducee's expectations.

Sadducee doctrine is still alive and well today it seems...

[4WD]

Absolutely, Jaime, which Jesus used to prove to the disciples that "it is I MYSELF" that they were touching and handling.  That was no "euphemism" which they were holding on to.

Most definitely Christ's "physical substance" was there in person in a glorified, incorruptible state, giving the lie to the Sadducee's expectations.

Sadducee doctrine is still alive and well today it seems...

The Sadducee doctrine was that there was no resurrection, no after life.  Who in all Christendom believes that today?

[3 Resurrections]

Sadducee doctrine denied the resurrection, as  well as denying the existence of either angel or spirit.  Because spirit is listed SEPARATELY from the resurrection in this group of doctrines they denied, it distinguishes the resurrection of the person's body form from their spirit as different topics.  The Sadducees denied it all. 

You yourself, 4WD, may agree that there is both angel and spirit, but by denying the resurrection of the bodies of the saints as well, you share in part of the Sadducees delusion.

[4WD]

Sadducee doctrine denied the resurrection, as  well as denying the existence of either angel or spirit.  Because spirit is listed SEPARATELY from the resurrection in this group of doctrines they denied, it distinguishes the resurrection of the person's body form from their spirit as different topics.  The Sadducees denied it all. 

You yourself, 4WD, may agree that there is both angel and spirit, but by denying the resurrection of the bodies of the saints as well, you share in part of the Sadducees delusion.

Climb off of that High Horse you are riding.  I deny not one word about the resurrection as recorded biblically nor about angels or spirit as recorded biblically. As I have said before, the doctrine of the resurrection is not about bringing a physical body back to life.  If that were the case, then one would have to have died in order to participate in the resurrection.  Paul denies that.

[3 Resurrections]

Paul does NOT deny that.  And this has nothing to do with me sitting on a "high horse" as you suppose.  By your words, you are attempting to "make the heart of the righteous sad, whom God hath not made sad" by removing part of the FULL resurrection inheritance promised to the saints. 

Our resurrection to spiritual life plants the indwelling Spirit within.  This "seal of the Holy Spirit" Paul says is given to believers after believing the truth.  "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the EARNEST of our inheritance (arrabon  - a down payment of future full payment) UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory." ( Ephesians 1:13-14).

And we are told in Romans 8:24 just what the "redemption of the purchased possession" actually includes.  For those living saints who are "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the REDEMPTION of OUR *BODY*.  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man SEETH, why doth he yet hope for?  But if we hope for what we SEE NOT" (before the bodily resurrection, we don't yet see our full inheritance yet), "then do we with patience WAIT FOR IT." 

So we are currently waiting patiently in a sealed, hopeful expectation for the eventual redemption of our body, when the Spirit that dwells in us "shall also quicken our MORTAL BODIES by His Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:11).

[Rob]

Paul does NOT deny that.  And this has nothing to do with me sitting on a "high horse" as you suppose.  By your words, you are attempting to "make the heart of the righteous sad, whom God hath not made sad" by removing part of the FULL resurrection inheritance promised to the saints. 

Our resurrection to spiritual life plants the indwelling Spirit within.  This "seal of the Holy Spirit" Paul says is given to believers after believing the truth.  "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the EARNEST of our inheritance (arrabon  - a down payment of future full payment) UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory." ( Ephesians 1:13-14).

And we are told in Romans 8:24 just what the "redemption of the purchased possession" actually includes.  For those living saints who are "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the REDEMPTION of OUR *BODY*.  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man SEETH, why doth he yet hope for?  But if we hope for what we SEE NOT" (before the bodily resurrection, we don't yet see our full inheritance yet), "then do we with patience WAIT FOR IT." 

So we are currently waiting patiently in a sealed, hopeful expectation for the eventual redemption of our body, when the Spirit that dwells in us "shall also quicken our MORTAL BODIES by His Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:11).

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Look at the context of verse 10. 
When Christ enters us, our bodies are not literally dead, this is not speaking of literal death. This is the same as saying "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me".

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Same context in verse 11. The mortal bodies (crucified with Christ) are raised because His spirit dwells within us.

[4WD]

So we are currently waiting patiently in a sealed, hopeful expectation for the eventual redemption of our body, when the Spirit that dwells in us "shall also quicken our MORTAL BODIES by His Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:11).

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The entire passage of Romans 7:14-8:13, including 8:11, is the message that Grace gives us the victory over sin. That is the message for our lives today not for our future resurrection to life with Jesus in Heaven.  It is important to understand what the indwelling Holy Spirit does for us now.

In fact the all-sufficiency of Grace that gives victory over sin in this life, not the next, is the over arching message of Romans, chapters 6,7, and 8. 

[3 Resurrections]

To be promised complete victory over sin and its effects, that necessarily includes eventual victory over ALL of sins effects.  Death of the human body's physical form is one of the more obvious effects sin had on the human race.  To leave the corpses of the saints in the grave would be for Christ to concede defeat on that point.  Christ is not a loser on any front.  He's an all-or-nothing victor, and will eventually redeem His ENTIRE purchased property, down to the last hair of our heads.

For anyone that thinks they can short-change the saints of their FULL resurrection experiences which they are patiently hoping and waiting for at present, they are attempting to rob God of the FULL measure of "praise to His glory" to which He is entitled.

[Rob]

To be promised complete victory over sin and its effects, that necessarily includes eventual victory over ALL of sins effects.  Death of the human body's physical form is one of the more obvious effects sin had on the human race.  To leave the corpses of the saints in the grave would be for Christ to concede defeat on that point.  Christ is not a loser on any front.  He's an all-or-nothing victor, and will eventually redeem His ENTIRE purchased property, down to the last hair of our heads.

For anyone that thinks they can short-change the saints of their FULL resurrection experiences which they are patiently hoping and waiting for at present, they are attempting to rob God of the FULL measure of "praise to His glory" to which He is entitled.

Death was conquered long ago, believers in Christ are immortal at conversion. We will never experience death in any way shape or form.

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 

[4WD]

Death of the human body's physical form is one of the more obvious effects sin had on the human race. 

No it is not.  Death of the human body's physical form is an integral part of the physical creation.  Physical death came to Adam and Eve because, in being ejected from the Garden, they no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which obviously was there to fend off physical death.  The death due to sin is spiritual (Ehp 2:1-2).  Read Genesis 3:22-23 carefully -- Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden...

[3 Resurrections]

Separation from God - the source of all life - caused death of both the spiritual AND physical elements.  Being IN CHRIST restores first the spiritual, and eventually the physical as well. 

Christ did not need to conquer death to restore His own spiritual standing, for He never lost that.  The power of the Spirit was used to raise Him from PHYSICAL death into that same body rendered incorruptible that "dieth no more". 

It is this same power of the indwelling Spirit which raised us first into spiritual life.  The indwelling of that Spirit is the reassuring "earnest of the Spirit" that will likewise ALSO raise our physical forms into the same condition of Christ's glorified body present in heaven today.

Rob is right in that Christ abolished death long ago.  We are each given eternal life at our spiritual birth.   And anyone living and believing in Him "shall not die FOREVER", as John 12:26 says in the Interlinear. 

Job 19:25-27 testified  that, even though his insides would be consumed within him and worms would destroy his skin, yet in his flesh with his own eyes, and not another's, he would literally see God.  His redeemer would "stand at the latter day upon the earth" as Zechariah 14:4-5 said He would do on the Mount of Olives, and gather all the bodily resurrected saints to return to heaven with Him. 

If this resurrection for the saints were only a spiritual one under consideration, what would be the point of specifying a particular location on this globe to which Christ would return to accomplish that resurrection?

[4WD]

Everyone, good or bad, will die [except those alive when Christ returns] and everyone, good or bad, will be resurrected.  In that there is no distinction.  Physical death was always here, is here now and will be until the very end. Physical death was not and will not be destroyed, except by the fact that there will no longer be anyone to die.

[4WD]

Death was conquered long ago, believers in Christ are immortal at conversion. We will never experience death in any way shape or form.

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus was most definitely not speaking of physical death there.  Rob, I am convinced that you live and believe in Jesus; surely you do not believe that you will never die physically.

[Rob]

Jesus was most definitely not speaking of physical death there.  Rob, I am convinced that you live and believe in Jesus; surely you do not believe that you will never die physically.

Oh yes, Jesus is most definitely talking about physical death. I will be like Enoch, and so will you, we will be snatched out of this body when it's time for us to go to the next world and this body will die. The only difference between us and Enoch is that Enoch was taken to Abraham's bosom without a glorified body but we will be changed into our new bodies in the twinkling of an eye. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The verses that most Christians call the "rapture" explains this process.

God is the God of the LIVING, not the dead. Once we are saved, we have nothing to do with death in any way shape or form, including the death of this earthly body.

[Rob]

Isa 26:18  We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
Isa 26:19  Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


Isaiah is the speaker in verse 18, he speaks in terms of we, meaning he and his earthly kinsmen.
Who is the speaker in verse 19? This person speaks in terms of THY people instead of my people.

[4WD]

Oh yes, Jesus is most definitely talking about physical death........


God is the God of the LIVING, not the dead. Once we are saved, we have nothing to do with death in any way shape or form, including the death of this earthly body.

What in the world are you talking about?  Of course you are going to die physically unless Jesus comes again before that happens.

[Rob]

What in the world are you talking about?  Of course you are going to die physically unless Jesus comes again before that happens.

The earthly bodies of all men will die - "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:". These earthly bodies are part of the 3d existence and like all 3d things, they will die and rot away.

In the bible the number 7 represents completion or perfection. Enoch was the 7th from Adam and this is why Enoch was chosen to illustrate what happens to all "perfected men" (God's people) when it comes time to leave this existence. There was nothing special about Enoch other than he was saved. There certainly wasn't anything special about the way he left this world... all believers exit from this existence the same way. Unfortunately this "leaving process" has been twisted into "the rapture", available only to a special set of Christians alive at the second coming.

The details of what happened to Enoch are given here.

Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 

Enoch did not SEE death. If you want to know what happened to Enoch's body, you have to continue reading.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Vers 13 tells us what happened to Enoch's body.

This is why Jesus said "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

[Rob]

Isa 26:18  We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
Isa 26:19  Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


Isaiah is the speaker in verse 18, he speaks in terms of we, meaning he and his earthly kinsmen.
Who is the speaker in verse 19? This person speaks in terms of THY people instead of my people.

This is an important passage for the timing of The Resurrection guys.... it happened when the speaker of verse 19 rose. 

[4WD]

Rob, you have me confused.  In John 11: 25-26 which you quoted in reply #85 what death do you think Jesus was speaking of when he said, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die",?

[Rob]

Rob, you have me confused.  In John 11: 25-26 which you quoted in reply #85 what death do you think Jesus was speaking of when he said, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die",?

My apologies, I didn't mean to be confusing and I don't want to lose you on this point because it is another critical point that we must understand properly in order to understand other doctrines.

Jesus was speaking of death period. Death is a state of being dead in our sins and trespasses. "And sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. The death of the physical body is the end result of sin. So in my opinion, there aren't different types of death, but rather different stages of death.... birth being the beginning stage (the condition we are born into) and the death of the physical body being the last stage.

As believers we have been taken out of the "death cycle" if you will. We were raised from death to eternal life at salvation and death is no longer a part of the believers life. Yes, this earthly body will die but just like Enoch was taken out of his earthly body before that body died, so we will. We will never SEE death, we will never TASTE death, we will never EXPERIENCE death, we'll be taken before death happens.

Keep in mind that WE are SOULS and not earthly bodies. The earthly body is just the vehicle that our souls experience life in in this existence. Also, according to the bible, our soul is married to our flesh until we come to Christ. When that happens, Christ kills our first husband (think David killing Bathsheeba's husband) and then our soul is free that husband and his law, and is now free to marry another - Christ.

Our souls are then connected to the eternal life and law of our new husband rather than being connected to the old husband who is bound to the law of sin and death. The souls of people in that condition will partake in their husband's (the flesh) fate, they will see death, taste death and experience death.

All of that last part comes from here:

Rom 7:1  Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 
Rom 7:2  For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 
Rom 7:3  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 
Rom 7:4  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Still it is not the body that is resurrected.

A spirit is immortal.  It does not die and therefore does not resurrect.

If not the body, what then is the resurrection?

[4WD]

A spirit is immortal.  It does not die and therefore does not resurrect.

If not the body, what then is the resurrection?

WS, that is a very good question.  It is a question that is difficult to answer, though perhaps it is not that it is so difficult to answer; rather it is difficult to understand the answer.  That is because in the resurrection we are raised to a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44). The problem here is that we simply do not know, nor can we comprehend precisely, what a spiritual body is.  We have nothing in our experience to guide us to an understanding.  Not even Paul was ready to answer that question.  All he said about it was that it was not the body that died. Paul described it as being "sown",i.e., buried. Paul said, "what you sow is not the body that is to be" (1 Cor 15:37), . He says that there are earthly bodies and heavenly bodies and in the resurrection we will receive a heavenly body, that is, a spiritual body.  Imagine that spiritual body to be however you wish, but do not think of it as your revived earthly body.

[4WD]

The death of the physical body is the end result of sin.

No that is not correct.  The physical body of Adam didn't die because or when he sinned.  His physical body eventually succumbed to the natural death as created when he was kicked out of the garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which, if eaten, could have allowed him to live forever (Gen 3:22).

[Rob]

No that is not correct.  The physical body of Adam didn't die because or when he sinned.  His physical body eventually succumbed to the natural death as created when he was kicked out of the garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which, if eaten, could have allowed him to live forever (Gen 3:22).

Jas 1:15 (KJV)  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin, when it is FINISHED brings forth the death of this body.

[4WD]

Jas 1:15 (KJV)  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin, when it is FINISHED brings forth the death of this body.

That is, it seems to me, to be obvious that it is spiritual death as Paul speaks of it in Ephesians 2:1 and elsewhere.  For even for those of us who have been fully forgiven of our sins end up dying. Sin, almost by definition, is a product of the body, the flesh, that affects the spirit, not the body.

[DaveW]

Still it is not the body that is resurrected.  It is the dead person, not the dead body.  The Bible often uses the euphemistic description of one sleeping to describe the one being resurrected.  I think perhaps that is more than just a customary usage of biblical times.  It speaks to the condition, not the physical substance, of the person. It seems clear to me that Paul's description in 1 Corinthians 15:44-54 speaks very strongly against any suggestion of a "bodily" resurrection.

I strongly suggest you get ahold of Dr Derek Prince's book "Foundation Series" or the update "Foundational Truths for Christian Living" and read the section on "Resurrection from the Dead." According to Hebrews 6.2 this is a foundational truth. 

Or you can watch him teach it from the pulpit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Ic8Vm0uRg

He lays it out quite well that the resurrection MUST be physical.

[4WD]

I strongly suggest you get ahold of Dr Derek Prince's book "Foundation Series" or the update "Foundational Truths for Christian Living" and read the section on "Resurrection from the Dead." According to Hebrews 6.2 this is a foundational truth. 

Or you can watch him teach it from the pulpit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Ic8Vm0uRg

He lays it out quite well that the resurrection MUST be physical.

I have read and heard enough arguments about a physical resurrection.  I really don't need another one.  It is clear enough for me to read Paul's statements that the resurrection is not physical.  And by the way, Hebrews 6:2 says who will be resurrected, not what the result of the resurrection is.  The result of the resurrection is the specific subject of 1 Corinthians 15:35 and following.  And it is not in conflict in any way with Hebrews 6:2.

[Rob]

That is, it seems to me, to be obvious that it is spiritual death as Paul speaks of it in Ephesians 2:1 and elsewhere.  For even for those of us who have been fully forgiven of our sins end up dying. Sin, almost by definition, is a product of the body, the flesh, that affects the spirit, not the body.

I really don't know what spiritual death is 4WD other than the state that we are born into. What is your view on Enoch, did Enoch's body die?

[DaveW]

I really don't know what spiritual death is 4WD other than the state that we are born into. What is your view on Enoch, did Enoch's body die?

Or Elijah?

[DaveW]

I have read and heard enough arguments about a physical resurrection.  I really don't need another one.  It is clear enough for me to read Paul's statements that the resurrection is not physical.  And by the way, Hebrews 6:2 says who will be resurrected, not what the result of the resurrection is.  The result of the resurrection is the specific subject of 1 Corinthians 15:35 and following.  And it is not in conflict in any way with Hebrews 6:2.

Romans 6:5
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Was our Lord's resurrection spiritual or physical?

[Rob]

Or Elijah?

Both of them Dave. I know more about Enoch than I do about Elijah. I've read where Elijah had written something after he had been taken up but I haven't looked into to that to see if it's true.

[4WD]

I really don't know what spiritual death is 4WD other than the state that we are born into.

We are not born into spiritual death.  We become spiritually dead when we sin.  The only death we are born into is physical death.  Physical death is an integral part of the physical creation.  Nothing physical was created to exist in eternity.

What is your view on Enoch, did Enoch's body die?

No, Enoch's body did not die.  But beyond that we have no idea what actually became of Enoch's body.  Just as we have no idea what actually became of Jesus' body.  Jesus prayed   "Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" (John 17:5).  That glory was not in the form of the human being that He left heaven to take on.  I have no doubt at all that God, the Father, answered and honored Jesus' prayer.