The “Walk”

[Netchaplain]

Being ever "circumspect," esp. of "the old man," is one of the spiritually healthiest commands to maintain (Eph 5:15), it being the closest enemy; and the doorway for distraction to believers from Satan and the unsaved world! We ever stand victorious in the Lord Jesus concerning salvation, but yet we walk wounded in our earthly life due to the continued possession of the sin nature (knowing the weakness in self results in dependence on God).

This is to perpetuate the knowledge of our need to grow in our walk, which encourages us to be "strong in the Lord" (Eph 6:10) and not in self, by entrusting all into His hands (1Pe 5:7).The truth concerning the ongoing, unwanted indwelling of the Adamic-nature keeps us mindful of the Cross (Ro 6:6), and humble in our walk (Jas 4:10; 1Pe 5:6). It's when we forget to avoid the error of thinking we can be steadfast on our own that we temporarily "fall" from the steadfastness of our walk, until we are eventually brought back into the walk of "The Way" (1Co 10:12; Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22 - NKJV).

The "walk" is not our salvation, but manifests our growth from it, and is our witness to others. One cannot grow in salvation because it does not admit in degrees, so we cannot "work" growth in our salvation but rather out of it (Phl 2:12), because God "works" growth in us (Phl 2:13). With the advent of not differentiating sufficiently between law and grace it is no wonder many often relate the walk (works) as that which effects salvation, missing the truth that it merely manifests and not produces salvation.

[4WD]

NC, I am curious what you do with 2 Timothy 1:7-8 --- "....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."   I would seem that there is something to be said for those who do obey the gospel; obeying meaning to actually do something.  There is a cause and effect here; disobedience results in condemnation and therefore, it would seem, that obedience leads to salvation.

[Netchaplain]

NC, I am curious what you do with 2 Timothy 1:7-8 --- "....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."   I would seem that there is something to be said for those who do obey the gospel; obeying meaning to actually do something.  There is a cause and effect here; disobedience results in condemnation and therefore, it would seem, that obedience leads to salvation.

I agree with you here. Only those who are genuinely His will desire to obey Him. Except I see it that one cannot obey God in the present Covenant apart from the Spirit of God, thus to me, receiving salvation leads to obedience.

Thanks for the input and God bless!

[4WD]

I guess then that I would ask you what you think (1) the gospel is and (2) how one might obey the gospel.  That is, how is the gospel the power unto salvation if you must first be saved in order to obey it. That sounds more like the reverse, i.e., that salvation is the power unto the gospel.

I realize that this is taking us off in a little different direction from your original post.  So you can ignore it if you would rather.

[Netchaplain]

I guess then that I would ask you what you think (1) the gospel is and (2) how one might obey the gospel.  That is, how is the gospel the power unto salvation if you must first be saved in order to obey it. That sounds more like the reverse, i.e., that salvation is the power unto the gospel.

I realize that this is taking us off in a little different direction from your original post.  So you can ignore it if you would rather.

I believe your reply here applies to everything related to salvation. To me the Gospel of Christ, briefed, is that He is the sole source of salvation, requiring faith in this truth to become a partaker in it.

[RB]

I believe your reply here applies to everything related to salvation. To me the Gospel of Christ, briefed, is that He is the sole source of salvation, requiring faith in this truth to become a partaker in it.

Greetings Netchaplain~it is not easy to jump into a discussion with folks who are using words with a broad brushstroke~namely in this instant the word salvation.

4WD, like many, believe it is used only in one sense~ salvation from sin and condemnation. But that is far from the truth. But as I have shown many times over it is used at least in five different senses. I will not take the time to prove this again, yet you can go back and look under the threads addressing this subject and read for your self. You said:

To me the Gospel of Christ, briefed, is that He is the sole source of salvation, requiring faith in this truth to become a partaker in it.

My brother this is not so. While I agree 100%, Jesus Christ is indeed the sole source of salvation~yet our believing is this truth has no part in our regeneration, or else, it cannot be said Jesus Christ is the sole source of salvation. This is making a self-contradiction statement by a person whose knowledge of the truth is inconsistent in describing a biblical truth.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto BELIEVERS~unto those that perish it is foolishness. Listen, my brother, carefully to Paul:

Romans 1:16,17~"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The Gospel is the power of God to BELIEVERS ONLY, those that have ALREADY been quickened to life by the Spirit of God. Why is it the power of God? Paul tells........."therein is the righteousness of God revealed" God's righteousness that HE PROVIDED  for redemption of his elect. The only righteousness accepted by God is the perfect faith and obedience of Jesus Christ~this is revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ. But there is more:

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith

The true gospel is reveal FROM a person who has biblical faith of the truth to a person who has faith in Jesus Christ. Impossible to reveal gospel truth to a person who has NOT faith ALREADY in their hearts~and, if one does have faith, then that's a proof of the INDWELLING Spirit of God, which faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit per Galatians five.

[4WD]

The Gospel is the power of God to BELIEVERS ONLY, those that have ALREADY been quickened to life by the Spirit of God.

And that, of course, is the lie perpetuated by the Augustinian Calvinist, making God the creator of the billions upon billions of the condemned for the sole purpose of condemning them.

[Netchaplain]

You said:My brother this is not so. While I agree 100%, Jesus Christ is indeed the sole source of salvation~yet our believing is this truth has no part in our regeneration, or else, it cannot be said Jesus Christ is the sole source of salvation. This is making a self-contradiction statement by a person whose knowledge of the truth is inconsistent in describing a biblical truth.

Hi, and appreciated your comments. To me, to believe that Christ is the only way to salvation is believing He is the Son of God and He came, suffered, died, resurrected and ascended--for us. Not sure if this is what you are addressing though!

[RB]

Hi, and appreciated your comments. To me, to believe that Christ is the only way to salvation is believing He is the Son of God and He came, suffered, died, resurrected and ascended--for us. Not sure if this is what you are addressing though!

My brother, please read my post again~there is no disputation among "evangelical professors" concerning Jesus Christ being the only name under heaven whereby we all must be saved, the disputation is this: "whose faith and obedience/righteousness  does the TRUE GOSPEL of God reveals is the only faith and obedience accepted before it truly can be said: the gospel IS the power of God unto Salvation?

I might add also, the gospel being the power of God UNTO SALVATION can only mean our practical salvation of coming to the knowledge of the TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

He is the Son of God and He came, suffered, died, resurrected and ascended--for us

Brother, he did, but it is MUCH MORE THAN that truth. He came not as a private person, but as a representative of HIS PEOPLE, and what he did, was as though they did it. When he died, THEY DIED, when he arose, THEY AROSE from dead, and where he now sits, SO DO THEY legally before the law of God! I could go into this much more if you desire to hear me out, or more than that, if you desire to hear the apostle Paul, who understood Christ's gospel perfectly more than any other apostle~at least in the beginning. I'll leave you with a couple of scriptures for you to give your time in meditation concerning the blessed truths that are in them.

Ephesians 2:4-9~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Faith in verse 8 is NOT our faith, but Jesus' faith proven by the CONTEXT. One more:

Galatians 2:20,21~I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Righteousness that God provided for his elect is revealed in the gospel and this righteousness comes by JESUS CHRIST, not by any work performed by men who are DEAD IN SINS! 

[Netchaplain]

My brother, please read my post again~there is no disputation among "evangelical professors" concerning Jesus Christ being the only name under heaven whereby we all must be saved, the disputation is this: "whose faith and obedience/righteousness  does the TRUE GOSPEL of God reveals is the only faith and obedience accepted before it truly can be said: the gospel IS the power of God unto Salvation?

I believe when we initially ask God for salvation we are asking for the faith that only the Spirit delivers--saving faith (Gal 5:22 5:22), not our natural faith. This is the faith that abides with hope and love (1Co 13:13).

We might be saying the same thing but in a different way. I at least know that it's often difficult to understand what one is trying to share concerning their main point.

[RB]

I believe when we initially ask God for salvation we are asking for the faith that only the Spirit delivers--saving faith (Gal 5:22 5:22), not our natural faith. This is the faith that abides with hope and love (1Co 13:13).

Netchaplain, this is incorrect~for many scriptural reasons.

The gospel is foolishness to all who are dead in trespasses and sin. There are no exceptions. Please listen carefully to Paul's words:

1st Corinthians 1:18~"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Why is the gospel foolishness to some and not to others? Is it because some men are not as wicked as others and have a spark of goodness in them? Paul will answer that question for us if we have ears to hear:

1st Corinthians 1:18b ".................but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

To those men who ARE SAVED, or born again by the Spirit of God, they see and understand that the TRUE GOSPEL is the power of God. The word "saved" in the scripture is to be understood in a vital sense to mean regeneration, showing us that regeneration COMES before faith, faith is nothing more than evidence of those ALREADY born of God.

Paul actually uses the word save/save in two different senses even in 1st Corinthians chapter one~please consider:

1st Corinthians 1:21~"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Verse 18 used to denote regeneration, in verse 21 save is used to denote our practical salvation  in coming to a true knowledge of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who ALREADY believe in Christ through the new man that dwells within them where the Spirit of God dewells God chose the foolishness to save them to a KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. Once the Spirit of God quickens one of God's elect, the gospel is NOT foolishness unto them, but it becomes the power of God how God provided redemption for their sins in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ's obedience. Our salvation from sin and condemnation is in NO WAY through us in any sense whatsoever since we all WERE in bondage to sin and the devil himself.

What do these scriptures say to you?

Romans 3:19-22~"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

You tell me and then I will tell you if you have a true knowledge of the truth.

Brother, one can be a child of God, yet not have a true knowledge of the truth, so please do not believe that I believe you are not a child of God. There are many Apollos that need to be instructed more perfectly in the truth, which would make one much more effective in spreading the truth, which should be our utmost desire.

We might be saying the same thing but in a different way. I at least know that it's often difficult to understand what one is trying to share concerning their main point.

We are not~and I'm following what you are saying, for I have debated this truth for over forty-five years. But, I labor to be very gracious to most~ especially so to people, I believe are a lover of God, but who just may be confused, for whatever reason.

[Netchaplain]

The gospel is foolishness to all who are dead in trespasses and sin.

I think we might be misunderstanding one another a little. When I say one is seeking and asking God for salvation, I'm referring to someone genuinely seeking, not one being hypocritical and insincere.

[4WD]

I think we might be misunderstanding one another a little. When I say one is seeking and asking God for salvation, I'm referring to someone genuinely seeking, not one being hypocritical and insincere.

Netchaplain, RB isn't misunderstanding you at all.  He is telling you that one cannot even think about seeking God until he has first been born again.  He is telling you that one cannot believe anything about God unless and until God lets him believe by first regenerating him.  He is telling you that one cannot understand anything in the Bible about God unless and until he is born again.  He is telling you that one cannot even know and understand that he is a sinner and needs to be saved unless God lets him know that by first regenerating him.   He is telling you that regeneration comes first and then you can believe. He is telling you that there is no such thing as genuinely seeking God unless and until he has first been born again.  He is wrong, but that is what he telling you.

[RB]

Netchaplain, RB isn't misunderstanding you at all.  He is telling you that one cannot even think about seeking God until he has first been born again.  He is telling you that one cannot believe anything about God unless and until God lets him believe by first regenerating him.  He is telling you that one cannot understand anything in the Bible about God unless and until he is born again.  He is telling you that one cannot even know and understand that he is a sinner and needs to be saved unless God lets him know that by first regenerating him.   He is telling you that regeneration comes first and then you can believe. He is telling you that there is no such thing as genuinely seeking God unless and until he has first been born again.

4WD is correct in saying that I DO understand, it is you that's confused on what I'm saying. Maybe you have never heard this debate before but it goes way back into the church's history, way back! Regeneration absolutely precedes believing.

He is wrong, but that is what he telling you.

Your theology believes I'm wrong, but there are many scriptures that would support this great biblical truth, which is part of coming to the true knowledge of the truth.

Netchaplain, sir, would you like for me to labor and prove this. There are threads on this subject~maybe I'll find them for you so you can see and understand better where I'm coming from. This is no new doctrine if one truly understands John 3:1-10~and if they do, then one would know what I'm saying. Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus was recorded in the holy scriptures for the sole purpose of stressing this important biblical truth. How do you read John 3? As a matter of fact, ALL of John's epistle was written to prove that our faith is NOT the means of regeneration, but the EVIDENCE of one born of God.

4WD did not perfectly describe my teaching, but close enough to not make him an offender over words.

I'll go and locate some of those threads that were posted on this very subject.

[Netchaplain]

Regeneration absolutely precedes believing. Your theology believes I'm wrong

I appreciate your kind manner of communication but first, I think we should understand that this subject is not essential doctrine for receiving salvation (not suspecting what your understanding is), but rather about salvation. What one understands concerning when rebirth occurs does not effect receiving of salvation, but helps us understand it more.

Concerning the point of redemption (rebirth, regeneration, salvation, etc.), it's my understanding that they are simultaneous, that faith and the grace of salvation must occur at the same time, simply because the blessing is there when the faith is there, because it must be "through faith" (Eph 2:8). Grace is the means of the source and faith is the means of transfer of grace. Thus, "by" what we are saved cannot occur apart from "through" which it is given or transferred. One is saved at the point of believing, i.e. "believe and be saved" (Luk 8:12); "to them that believe on His name" (Jhn 1:12); "He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already (Jhn 3:18 - I think the phrase here "believeth not" is reference to God's foreknowledge of all who will never choose to believe.

The point these make (which I think is the same concerning your understanding) is that rebirth cannot be produced by anything from man. Neither is the spiritual fruit of faith (not our natural faith but "of the Spirit" - Gal 5:22) a causal element (as you've indicated) because only grace is causal, and faith is merely instrumental.

[DaveW]

Regeneration absolutely precedes believing.

That is so much calvinist mumbo jumbo. 

As John Wesley said: 
We have our part and God has His part.
We CANNOT do God's part and He WILL NOT do our part.

[4WD]

That is so much calvinist mumbo jumbo. 

Yes it is.  However they need it, otherwise their entire soteriology falls flat on its face  --  which, of course, it does exactly that.

[4WD]

The point these make (which I think is the same concerning your understanding) is that rebirth cannot be produced by anything from man. Neither is the spiritual fruit of faith (not our natural faith but "of the Spirit" - Gal 5:22) a causal element (as you've indicated) because only grace is causal, and faith is merely instrumental.

A better translation/interpretation of Galatians 5:22 is that it is faithfulness, not faith, that is the fruit of the Spirit.  Of the several versions I checked, only the KJV and the YLT interpret it as faith, all the rest have faithfulness or the equivalent.

Also I would submit that grace is the basis for salvation, and faith, while not alone, is the means to obtain salvation.

[Netchaplain]

A better translation/interpretation of Galatians 5:22 is that it is faithfulness, not faith, that is the fruit of the Spirit.  Of the several versions I checked, only the KJV and the YLT interpret it as faith, all the rest have faithfulness or the equivalent.

True concerning faithfulness, which I believe is a fruit of faith, and that it's God who "works" this is all who are truly in the faith (Phl 2:13).

Also I would submit that grace is the basis for salvation, and faith, while not alone, is the means to obtain salvation.[/quote]
Amen here! Faith is not causal but only a required instrument for cause.

[johntwayne]

True concerning faithfulness, which I believe is a fruit of faith, and that it's God who "works" this is all who are truly in the faith (Phl 2:13).

Also I would submit that grace is the basis for salvation, and faith, while not alone, is the means to obtain salvation.
Amen here! Faith is not causal but only a required instrument for cause.

Actually grace is the basis for salvation, the blood of Christ is the means, and faith is the condition.

[Netchaplain]

Actually grace is the basis for salvation, the blood of Christ is the means, and faith is the condition.

Hi and appreciate your reply. Also, the bottom comment on that post is someone else comment.

[3 Resurrections]

Agreed:

"Regeneration absolutely precedes believing."

In the same manner, the life of a child absolutely precedes the birth of that child.

As we cannot credit ourselves with giving ourself the gift of eternal life, so a child cannot credit themselves with either their conception to life or their own natural birth.

[4WD]

In the same manner, the life of a child absolutely precedes the birth of that child.

Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand.  Just more of you typical eisegesis.  If John 3:1-8 tells you nothing else, it should tell you that physical birth [and death] have nothing at all to do with spiritual birth and death and rebirth. 

[4WD]

Actually grace is the basis for salvation, the blood of Christ is the means, and faith is the condition.

Means  --- mechanism, process, technique, conditions, requirements.  I could argue that grace is the fundamental reason for salvation and blood of Christ is the basis for salvation. The blood of Christ is God's ransom demand that allows for redemption of sinful man. And yes, faith is one of the conditions, or as I have said the means, whereby we are counted among the redeemed.  A good bit of that is semantics so I won't be nit picky and  spend any more of your time pushing for all of that.  I know that you have a good handle on the correct soteriology.

[RB]

That is so much calvinist mumbo jumbo.

The only language causing or intended to cause confusion or bewilderment is your quote of John Wesley a staunch Arminian who was more confused than the plowboys behind the mules throughout England in the 1700s. His commentary is about as empty of light as the other side of the Moon.

As John Wesley said:  We have our part and God has His part. We CANNOT do God's part and He WILL NOT do our part.

Such statements only reveals one's ignorance of the true gospel of Jesus Christ~"IF" man has a part, then Christ' death was in vain, pure and simple, and if you believe otherwise, you will be found under the curse of Galatians chapter one, with Galatians 2:16 to 5:4 proving why such people are under the curse of the God of heaven in perverting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If Justification from the curse of God's broken law is by any other means whatsoever in any form, then Jesus Christ died in vain~he was sent into the world that righteousness may be freely imparted on the behalf of sinners who had no spiritual strength to any work of righteousness that would secure their right be free of the condemantion of God's broken law. For now:

Romans 5:6-11~"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

So much even in these short verses to prove that John Wesley preached another gospel. I'm NOT judging his heart but his knowledge of the truth, judging men's hearts is God's work and he will perfectly perform that righteous duty, especially so when it comes to his Son redemption work for SINNERS.

Dave, I do not believe you men truly understand the definition of being sinners apart from God's saving grace, Such men are ENEMIES to the truth....it is even worst, such mean are AT ENMITY against God~at constant war and a hater of God, even to a point men in the flesh are subject to the law of God neither indeed can be! That's not my opinion of sinners, that's God's testimony of them, and it would be wise on our part to listen carefully to what he has to say and agree with Him!

Romans 8:7,8~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

In the case of you quoting John Wesley, it is the blind following the blind and both will end up in the ditch.

[johntwayne]

Regeneration does not precede faith, it follows faith. Specifically regeneration occurs at baptism.

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
(Tit 3:5)

[RB]

I appreciate your kind manner of communication but first, I think we should understand that this subject is not essential doctrine for receiving salvation (not suspecting what your understanding is), but rather about salvation. What one understands concerning when rebirth occurs does not effect receiving of salvation, but helps us understand it more.

Sometimes it is not easy to know when to be firm, bold, yet merciful in remembering our own weakness in coming to a better understanding of the truth is so many doctrines, but Christ's gospel is paramount to any other in the scriptures. Galatians one would support this statement. May God grant all of us the wisdom needed in speaking forth the truth in love first for God then our fellowmen.

I think we should understand that this subject is not essential doctrine for receiving salvation

Sir, salvation in its broad term, mainly, salvation from sin and condemnation~ there are NO ESSENTIALS DEMANDS for sinners, for such salvation is freely given on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

but helps us understand it more

Only those truly born of God have the POWER to understand this great salvation, yet only a few among the very elect will do so, like on many other doctrines, sad, but true to any person with some understanding of the truths of the scriptures.

Concerning the point of redemption (rebirth, regeneration, salvation, etc.), it's my understanding that they are simultaneous, that faith and the grace of salvation must occur at the same time,

They are not simultaneous, no more than they are in a birth of a child. What child is born knowing his parent's? Never been a first one~babies could be swap at birth and they would never know it most likely. Besides, and more importantly~that's the very purpose of God chosing the foolishness of preaching to SAVE them that believe! Why did Paul desire to go to Spain?

Romans 15:23,24~"But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you; Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company."

One reason: to seek out those whom God HAD regenerated by His Spirit.

2nd Timothy 2:10~"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

The salvation that Paul sought for the elect was their PRACTICAL SALVATION of true knowledge that they had in Christ Jesus by the grace of God. Some men may live and die in this world who were children of God and live according to whatever light they had, even though they may have never heard the name of Jesus Christ, and even if they have heard, all hear truths differently based on the knowledge of those bringing the message of the gospel. Paul, when he went into a city SOUGHT WERE PRAYER WAS WONT TO BE MADE (most of the time he went into synagogues)  for among those people is where one would find children of God who needed to hear the TRUTH so they could enjoy the glory found therein.

Acts 16:13,14~"And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

because it must be "through faith" (Eph 2:8). Grace is the means of the source and faith is the means of transfer of grace.

I want to come back to this statement of yours, for it would take a few words to consider properly and beneficially to our readers.

[RB]

Regeneration does not precede faith, it follows faith. Specifically regeneration occurs at baptism.

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
(Tit 3:5)

johntwayne~amazingly you quote a scripture and then rejected the very truth put forth therein! That's called a strong delusion  that only the Spirit of God can correct. Regeneration does not occur at baptism~that is refuted by hundreds of examples. If you desire for me to prove it, then no problem.

Titus 3:5"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

The second part of this scriptures cannot and does not go against the first part of this wonderful scripture, yet you are at lost proving your work gospel try to make them both say the same truth.

by the washing of regeneration

Has no reference to the river of Jordan, nor the Nile river of any other water hole. Washing of regeneration is being washed in the BLOOD of Christ.

Revelation 7:14~"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb..

All through the scriptures the blood of Christ speaks of his DEATH~they are ONE and the SAME. At Christ's death, he secured our legal salvation from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us~.....THEREBY, it can be said we are saved NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS that we have done, but by the washing away of our sins THROUGH the death of Jesus Christ and all that were chosen of God will be RENEWED by the Spirit of God in time base on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[4WD]

"IF" man has a part, then Christ' death was in vain

You have said that often in the past.  But it simply is not true. Such a statement does not appear in Scripture.  And such a statement is logically false.  Conditions placed by God on the individual for receiving eternal life in no way diminishes the role of Christ's death in making possible that receipt of eternal life of that individual.  That the Calvinist thinks it does, only says that the Calvinist does not understand what was accomplished by Christ's death; hence the fallacy of the doctrine of Limited Atonement.

[4WD]

johntwayne~amazingly you quote a scripture and then rejected the very truth put forth therein! That's called a strong delusion  that only the Spirit of God can correct. Regeneration does not occur at baptism~that is refuted by hundreds of examples. If you desire for me to prove it, then no problem.

Please show us one of those hundreds of examples which refutes Johntwayne's statement that regeneration occurs at baptism.

[Netchaplain]

there are NO ESSENTIALS DEMANDS for sinners, for such salvation is freely given on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

True, nothing is expected from man in producing salvation, only in accepting this through faith essentials. Examples of faith essentials are believing Jesus is the Son of God (Jhn 20:31); believe He was incarnated (1Jo 4:2, 3); believe He was resurrected (Ro 10:9), all which are included in the fruit of faith from the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

[4WD]

True, nothing is expected from man in producing salvation, only in accepting this through faith essentials. Examples of faith essentials are believing Jesus is the Son of God (Jhn 20:31); believe He was incarnated (1Jo 4:2, 3); believe He was resurrected (Ro 10:9), all which are included in the fruit of faith from the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

Doesn't that agree completely with what RB is telling you?  If faith comes from the Spirit, to whom does faith come?

[johntwayne]

johntwayne~amazingly you quote a scripture and then rejected the very truth put forth therein! That's called a strong delusion  that only the Spirit of God can correct. Regeneration does not occur at baptism~that is refuted by hundreds of examples. If you desire for me to prove it, then no problem. The second part of this scriptures cannot and does not go against the first part of this wonderful scripture, yet you are at lost proving your work gospel try to make them both say the same truth. Has no reference to the river of Jordan, nor the Nile river of any other water hole. Washing of regeneration is being washed in the BLOOD of Christ. All through the scriptures the blood of Christ speaks of his DEATH~they are ONE and the SAME. At Christ's death, he secured our legal salvation from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us~.....THEREBY, it can be said we are saved NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS that we have done, but by the washing away of our sins THROUGH the death of Jesus Christ and all that were chosen of God will be RENEWED by the Spirit of God in time base on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The first part Paul affirms salvation is not by works (perfect doing). In the second part he affirms that regeneration occurs at baptism (a faith work that trusts God to forgive).

As James points out we are are justified by works (faith works). He does not contradict Paul who affirms we are not justified by perfect works.

You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
(Jas 2:24)

[RB]

Doesn't that agree completely with what RB is telling you?  If faith comes from the Spirit, to whom does faith come?

No, it does not completely with what I'm saying~but, I will say he is much closer to the truth on this subject then you are.

True, nothing is expected from man in producing salvation, only in accepting this through faith essentials. Examples of faith essentials are believing Jesus is the Son of God (Jhn 20:31); believe He was incarnated (1Jo 4:2, 3); believe He was resurrected (Ro 10:9), all which are included in the fruit of faith from the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

The word "ONLY" tells me according to God's testimony that you are bringing works in through the backdoor. Many godly folks do the same, so do not take this to mean that do not consider you a brother in Christ, for KNOWLEDGE of the truth is not a condition of being a child of God, but it surely hinders one's joy, peace and from giving Christ ALL THE GLORY due unto him, for his perfect faith and obedience on OUR BEHALF that alone secures eternal life for us.

Let me use one of the scriptures you provided as an example of what I'm laboring to prove to you.

John 20:30,31~"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

I'm short on time so I must be quick.

The only sense one can give this scripture and others like this one, is this: God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe, and those that do believe do so by the Spirit of the Living God~so, God chose the written word of God to convey spiritual truths to his elect~he could have chosen thousands of others ways to reveal himself to us but chose the scriptures to do so. So, these things which we have in the word of God was written that we would COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH of the gift of eternal life that his elect enjoy...this is the sense of:

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Or, have the KNOWLEDGE of eternal life through Jesus Christ perfect faith and obedience.

Let me give you one more scripture to ponder:

1st Peter 1:23-25~"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

Very few truly understand what Peter is saying here, but a wise man will ponder it very carefully by comparing scriptures with scriptures. Peter said that we were born again BY the word of God~now, in what sense should we understand what Pewter is saying so that the scriptures cannot be broken but have a perfect flow from one scripture to another?

We all know, or at least should know that the natural man or one still living after the flesh cannot understand or submit to the scriptures without first being made a new creation after the image of Jesus Christ.

So, when I read Peter saying that we are born again BY the word of God I understand him saying that we are born again according to God's testimony, or by God's witness of how we are born again. Consider:

1st Corinthians 2:1~"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God."

The written word of God is His testimony to us concerning ALL spiritual truths and apart from that testimony we would be totally in darkness. One more

1st John 5:9-13~"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

The scriptures are God's testimony to us, his witness to us concerning his Son and how we came to know him and how we can have 100% confidence that we have eternal life~well, actually, they tell me how I was born again and WHY I desire to live the way I do, etc., etc., etc.

I have a meeting to make....later.  RB forgive my errors in writing I was in a hurray.

[DaveW]

The first part Paul affirms salvation is not by works (perfect doing). In the second part he affirms that regeneration occurs at baptism (a faith work that trusts God to forgive).

One thing that needs to be kept in mind when we read Paul talking about "works."  He uses that specifically in terms of obeying the Law of Moses.  If it is not a command or prohibition in the Law, it is not what he is talking about.

IOW, believing in the death burial and resurrection of our Lord is NOT a "work."

As James points out we are are justified by works (faith works). He does not contradict Paul who affirms we are not justified by perfect works.
You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.(Jas 2:24)

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.