Dreams from God?

[nerdneh]

seekr, should have tried to clarify my understanding on this sooner, but we have had severe thunderstorms rolling through this part of the country. My poor little Jack Russell terrier, Gustav Dogler, has been hiding under the bed for a couple of days, so that's how the Spring is going here.
I have read some books on dreams, one by Erich Fromm, but it was not much help as he is coming from a psychological perspective. My own conclusion is that we have the information we need about Christ and living for God in the Scriptures, but we can only truly understand what God is telling us when we are permitting the Holy Spirit to guide us in our understandings, for the Spirit knows the deep things of God. Now, I do not believe the Spirit will contradict Himself,and tell us one thing in the Scriptures and something the opposite in a dream or private revelation.
So, I can see where a dream can clarify and sharpen some truth for us, make it personal to us, but to me this falls in the category of Romans 14: 22 "the faith which you have, keep to yourselves in the presence of God..." I take this to mean, not the evangelical truth of Jesus which all people need to hear, but those insights of guidance and individual perspectives we all need to make informed decisions about our lives and the ways in which we interact with our brothers and sisters in the faith.
I do believe, as Paul says in 1st Corinthians 12 that one can only say "Jesus is Lord" in the Spirit, and one cannot say "Jesus is anathema" in the Spirit.
So, as I said God can use many ways to clarify our thoughts, but He is not obligated to do it any one way.

[seekr]

Wiley, great response. I gently waded in with this subject, as it is true, people will jump all over you for believing God still uses dreams and visions. But more because of the people who say "God showed me" about everything they think and seek for signs and wonders, as opposed to Him. And as I've stated before, satan loves to send a counterfeit and this takes wisdom. I, and my husband (who was a skeptic, because he sees the hypocrisy in a lot of the pentecostal type movements) have also seen miraculous things and have had dreams with, either me as interpertor or my husband. We never went looking for this, God brought it to us. But, the cross came first. As the flesh is crucified, God's power comes in in our weakness and brokenness. It helps keep us humble.  I have seen so much abuse in this area, with people jumping up and down and watched arrogance rule in their lives. I do serve a miraculous God and it has helped magnify the love of God in my, and my husband's life, but also brought great pain, while we had to face much with it all. Joy was also intermixed with it. There is a balance to it all, I believe--and that is to not seek the miraculous, because the enemy stands ready--but to keep our eyes focused on God. And He may choose not to work that way, it is always His call. If we take hard stances, God rarely works through that. But i still would not even limit Him, there, as Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisee's and Jesus still appeared to him. I stand amazed.

seekr

[WileyClarkson]

Some questions for anyone who is willing to answer!

1.  Has anyone on the forum experienced a vision or heard an inner voice clearly that they would be willing to talk about?

2.  Are we too hesitant to talk about these things in the present state of affairs in the RM churches?  

3.  If we are not afraid to talk about them, then why don't we talk about them on a local level instead on the more open forums in the web?  

4.  Is it a subject that is too volatile presently to talk about openly in the local churches?

5.  Has anyone on the forum done a really indepth study into this area of Scripture or can someone recommend a published study?

6.  Have we become too logical in our Campbellite approach to even consider the possibility of these things still occurring?


Wiley

[nerdneh]

Wiley, since I posted a real dream I had on the Artists and Writers section, I thought I would sit back and read the responses to your questions, since I have never thought seriously on this topic. I believe this is a scary topic in a movement that is so paranoid that even mentioning you read some modern translation gets you in trouble in some quarters. A few years ago I had a meeting canceled because the elders said they wanted to avoid anyone who was the least bit controversial. I suppose that leaves Jesus and Paul out which is not bad company to be in.
I am sure whatever is said in this area is bound to be misunderstood, and I have appreciated your willingness to talk about your experiences. I have had a few, but I still do not have the language to describe them yet. Perhaps if you are persistent you will drag a few of us out of the woodwork.

[WileyClarkson]

seekr,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]what did your vision mean? What was the significance of it? Has God revealed that to you? I know that God uses these things to show His love and concern for us, but they change something in us. I think maybe there is more to it and God may show you more later.[/quote]


At this point, if there is more to it than the effect it had on me at the time, I'll have to just wait for God to reveal it to me.  I know I was going through a very stressfull time in a number of areas (not just my wife's surgery), but I have always in my mind attributed the moment as what I needed to bring the stress level down and I have always thought of myself as handling stress better than most due to my job.  I do know that the stress level went from a peak to almost no-stress at all before I walked out of that church building and it lasted for several days.  It was a most reassuring moment and really reinforced my faith that Jesus was indeed hung on that cross. The Lord's Supper became more meaningfull after that rather than just a required act.  I was doing alot of re-evaluating of beliefs and study during that time.  Maybe it had something to do with that.  It did have an eye opening effect and actually pushed me forward.  Linda thought I had jumped off the deep end into an empty pool with some of the things we discussed during that time.  Now, she has changed her views (after several years of listening to me and our friend Lester Duncan) on many of those same topics and agrees with me now.  I had already come to the conclussions that the very conservative/traditional/legalistic part of the CoC which Linda and I had always been associated with was not right for us anymore but I had to wait for her to catch up (only took us about 28 years to change to where we are now).  Since that happened, I have become very dependant on God's grace instead of the legalistic views I was taught early on.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]We are still going through some of what God has revealed to us, for the last few months.[/quote]

Well, when you feel that you have worked through it and are able to talk about it, whether here or privately, I would love to hear about it and the outcome.

grace to you and peace,

Wiley

[seekr]

marc, it is a normal occurence to have God speak to you and tell you the truth about His word. We have just spent too much time listening to others' opinions and of things passed dwon.God speaks to me in that still small voice and sometimes through a rush of peace that comes in. And yes, the enemy is right there to try and put in a counterfeit. But the Spirit can bear witness. Maybe because of some of your background, you fear being wrong and being "shipwrecked", too many old messages. I know there's been a lot of legalism in your past, but God can set you free. Free to have Him teach you as He said He would, freedom from following the dictates of man. I'll tell you, I am writing a book, something that I never thought I'd do, but within one week, I was prompted by the Spirit to write 7 rough drafts. I was astounded, still am--7 short stories in 7 days! I have added more to them over the last year and a half and I absolutely trust God in His timing and wisdom. Do you understand that, that is what freedom is. God told me over 2 years ago, and I knew it was Him, that I would not have to strive for my ministry, that He would place it before me.  I will still say, I do not seek the miraculous, just Him. I give Him my willingness for anything, which usually includes hardship, to be made into His image. Another thing satan will do is create doubt in you and shame. But he also has the ability to send us dreams too. So just go to God with your concerns and prayers, and WAIT for Him to reveal...He is faithful that way. Read 1John 4:1-6 and ask God to reveal. Grow in love.

seekr

[seekr]

marc, do not fear being open or even being attacked by the "zealous" who would criticize. The fact that you WANT God's will in your life is the defining factor. What i have discovered with the vision and dreams of my husband, was that we, can have so much buried deep within us and never take it out and look at it, because we're "Christians". But there are things that surface and we catch a glimpse and discard it as just a temptation or any other excuse. But even with God working mightily in our lives and loving us and us loving Him, there are things we ignore and may never act upon, until it comes out of us, eventually and may consume us. That is why some people "go home" early, because God in His great mercy, would not wnat them to fall away, because He sees the condition of the heart and saves them from themselves. God knows your heart, marc, but there probably are things from your past trying to surface. And that maybe was an angel, I will not say positively, but know that God really does come to us in various ways, even with His messengers, That is for you to discover. There is a greater battle out there, than imaginable. But the battle is the Lords. He may at this point be preparing you, for what He wants to heal in you and it may be a lengthy process and He needs you to see, first the damage. With the things He has shown me and my husband, there has been a lot of pain and chipping away of the damage within, but the result will be glorious. I was blind, but now I see. And marc, this may call for perseverance. God uses much of the natural to respond to us and heal us from our pasts, that is why it isn't just this blanket of forgiveness or instant healing, although there is that at times. When we read about how Jesus healed, why wasn't the process always the same? See there is a message in that for us--kind of like Him using spit and dirt to heal the blind and the deaf. He has chosen in me and my husband's life to use the natural, so it is an on-going process. There are moments of great joy and being in His presence through this, but pain that has come close to taking our life. I serve Him in awe. I pray for great wisdom for you as you seek His will for your life. I care.

Maurine

[julie danley]

I have been listening for a long time to the discussions on this website and they are wonderful but this topic pulled me in to register and to respond.  It is comforting to know that others have similar experiences.  I have felt since I was a young child that God speaks to me in unconventional ways.  As some of you have said...to convey those situations to you I would have to give you personal details of my life and I am not willing to do that at this time.
But there is one recent dream that I am willing to share with you.  I have been wrestling with the issue of women's role in the church for probable 15 years or more.  Just a couple of weeks ago I dreamed that I had been invited to a church to speak and my husband and children were traveling with me to this church to speak.  When I arrived at the church they were preparing to hold a funeral and not a regular service.  A child had died and was in a simple pine box without the lid.  My boss from work came over to me(I am a RN) and said you are the only one who can do anything about this...you have a license.  I then realized when I walked over to the coffin that the little girl was moaning and was not dead.  She was deformed and looked as if she had been born with many birth defects.  I then saw a man from my congregation and he said that I was the only one who could fix this situation.  This was all taking place outside under large canopies.  The little girl in the casket was black and there were about equal number black and white people there but they would not speak to each other.  I didn't feel when I was dreaming that it was a racial thing but the black and white issue thing.  I woke up feeling so disturbed and wondering what this truly meant for my life.  Some insight, anyone?   Wow, didn't mean to go on so long for my first post here.  grace, Julie

[patriciaredstone]

I KNEW this was a good thread! It has taken me a while to get here. My house is an infirmary right now ... Son and husband in their third week of recovery from surgery and mother-in-law on her way to her 2nd knee replacement ... Thanks to all who have been keeping me in prayer.

Has anyone noticed that we are all artists here? Dreams, visions, signs ... only artists and mystics give them any conscious attention. Scientists believe that perceptive differences out of the mainstream is a neurological disorder. Medical anthropologists put forth evidence that Paul the apostle of Jesus had epilepsy, a disorder of the brain which gives individuals extreme mystical sensitivity and spiritual insight ... genuine spiritual insight. They also say that St. Therese, Hildegard of Bingen, Vincent Van Gogh and many other of the world's brilliant, artisitic treasures suffered from a similar form of epilepsy which has been studied in modern cases and proven to elevate spiritual and artistic awareness. Unfortunately, if the individual lives long enough the epilepsy will eventually cause madness.

All of you should read Lying Awake by Mark Salzman. It explores this fascinating medical/spiritual dynamic. It is a New York Times Notable Book and a National Bestseller. It is beautifully written! I am coming to believe that artists and priests are truly chosen by God and marked with unique perspective. We do not create ourselves. He appoints visionaries for his people!

[julie danley]

Bob,  I think that the only thing this could represent right now is women in the Church of Christ.  This has been on my heart for a very long time and I feel that the Spirit is moving me to take a definite stand and speak out and make a difference.  But it is a big thing to take on.  I have already taken a great deal of heat for it and if I truly step out on this issue...I will take more.  grace, Julie

[nerdneh]

Julian of Norwich was a woman, why did she choose to be known as Julian? Perhaps the same thing that is a struggle for Julie.
How can a man ever identify with this struggle?
What has male domination done for the church? What has it left undone? Each of us can only use the opportunities we have been given. I suppose you have read the books. Patricia is a good source for much material.

[MASouth]

marc,

This has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this thread, but I read where your grandmother was raised deep in the West Virginia hills.  I was born and raised in Parkersburg, West Virginia, and most of my relatives came from around Ricthie County.  Where did your grandmother live?  My mom and brother still live there.

MaSouth

[seekr]

This is for James to see our discussion on dreams that we had before.

seekr

[winky]

We talked about this in class Sunday morning.

We listed various ways that God speaks to us. Here's what we came up with:
- His word
- other people
- events/circumstances
- conscience/intuition
- dreams/visions
- creation

I think there was one more, but I can't remember it.

The conscience/intuition is what I think Wiley referred to in a post on this thread about the inner voice. I think the HS speaks to us through our conscience and intuition, which is all part of our inner spirit (different from our soul and our physical body...but that's another thread).

I agree with what Kevin said that he will not give us anything that contradicts scripture (reading and knowing God's word is what helps us discern whether what we think or hear or see in a vision or whatever is from God), but he may show us something we hadn't yet realized or understood.

Wendy

[winky]

No, we weren't in that class in August, but we did attend his class for a little while (about a year ago). He is an amazing person! He sends out a daily devotional thought to an email list of about 300 every day and it is always really great. He's also the sweetest man you'll ever meet, remembers everyone's name, just a true reflection of Christ in almost every way. If you want to be on his email list, you can email him at [a href=\"mailto:willisj@acu.edu\"]willisj@acu.edu[/a] or you can read his daily devotional thoughts on Highland's site: www.highlandchurch.org.

We loved the Biblical lessons in his class (Jeff Childers and Steve Weathers taught in there too, traded off each week, and they are excellent as well), but we didn't stay there b/c we were really needing to make some friends our own age (his class was a big mix of ages, mostly older than us) so we joined a young married/young families-type class, which we really like. And we get the intergenerational mix from our Lifeteam (small group), with ages ranging from 3 yrs old to mid-50s. :)

[seekr]

Because of Bob's dream, that he posted recently, I started pondering his response of not making any dogmatic claims as he wouldn't want any one to think he considered himself more special than the rest of God's people. and that is a good thing. I also heard another brother respond in a like manner, as if when God speaks to us, we're setting ourselves above the rest. I absolutely understand that, what with all the false proclaims of others shouting their visions and dreams, and making us feel like we need to keep quiet, or they''l lump us together with the shouters. But this has always been a problem, because our enemy has introduced the counterfiet to keep us from hearing the "real". So then the problem comes about of--"how do we know the difference"? And would God speak to us in this manner with dreams or other manifestations of His Spirit, such as He did in the OT, and in the NT. I mean we receive the Holy Spirit and we have the written word, so would God still need to do that today? Is there a limit to His great love for us? If He knows each of us intimately, and knows what we need to come to the foot of the cross--aren't we still like Paul, who had the Spirit and saw miraculous things?  and if scripture says He will teach us and that He does speak to us and we hear His voice, should we doubt everyone who encounters Him, face to face? and does that make someone extra-special and risen above everyone else, when all they did was hear from Him as He said we would hear His voice? so one of the ways we can tell is if the limelight is on the person, rather than the Lord--and the Spirit WILL bear witness. Don't you ever read a book about some past saint and you sense the Spirit? Read what Daniel said to the king--
"As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, NOT because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind." Dan.2:30.

I'm like a lot of you, I see all the hypocrisy and the false proclaimers(they've always been around) and it sickens me. One factor in all of this, also, is that God may work miracles among us(scripture is not silent on that one, for those of you who are into what it doesn't say) but not without a price. It takes having a thorn in our flesh--TO KEEP US FROM BECOMING CONCEITED. So then what comes in, is how willing are we to suffer, and I don't mean, "I'll starve tomorrow so I can have a miracle", but maybe to be humiliated and looked down on and be rejected, while seeing God's miracles, and yeh, maybe go hungry for awhile. Paul had his super-apostles among him, and yet he was dishonored at times in the church. If our focus is only on what the Spirit can do for us, such as Simon, who was out for gain (do we see a connection, here?) then we will encounter the workings of the flesh, and the other forces not of God, not His Spirit. I believe the miraculous works silently among us, at times and we may, at times, share it to POINT to Jesus and what He has done. God has not changed, He comes to us, when we let Him, powerfully, but not with OUR trumpets blasting. I share the same Spirit Paul had. we don't set ourselves above others when we only are hearing from God.  In Jer.23:25-26--"I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream! How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their minds?"  Then in 28-29, another way we can tell if it is from God--"Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain? declares the Lord. Is not my word like fire, declares the Lord, and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?"

So I know not to limit God. He does touch us in various ways and not because we're so great, but because His love is. We don't come to Him with our puffed up knowledge, but only as a child at His knee. It isn't about commending ourselves and measuring each other by ourselves--but only bowing in His presence. If He uses a miracle or a dream to show us something, it should only induce praise for how worthy HE is. and we should be able to share if it encourages and builds up the saints. Isn't that what your dream did, Bob? Praise God!

seekr

[WileyClarkson]

Bob and Seeker,

I must have overlooked Bob's post about this subject and what I going to post might be better in the theology forum but I will post it here since we have started it here (at least for now :)

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] (Seeker) If He uses a miracle or a dream to show us something, it should only induce praise for how worthy HE is. and we should be able to share if it encourages and builds up the saints. Isn't that what your dream did, Bob? Praise God![/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] (Bob) So, I can see where a dream can clarify and sharpen some truth for us, make it personal to us, but to me this falls in the category of Romans 14: 22 "the faith which you have, keep to yourselves in the presence of God..." I take this to mean, not the evangelical truth of Jesus which all people need to hear, but those insights of guidance and individual perspectives we all need to make informed decisions about our lives and the ways in which we interact with our brothers and sisters in the faith.[/quote]

Acts 2: 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17   "'In the last days, God says,
   I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
   Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
   your young men will see visions,
   your old men will dream dreams.
18   Even on my servants, both men and women,
   I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
   and they will prophesy.
19   I will show wonders in the heaven above
   and signs on the earth below,
   blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20   The sun will be turned to darkness
   and the moon to blood
   before the coming of the great and
            glorious day of the Lord.
21   And everyone who calls
   on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

Visions, dreams, and prophesy is something I have been interested in for a long time and done some study here and there on it.  I do not believe they have ceased, nor will they cease until Christ returns.  I won't go into my reasons for that in this particular post except that it is through personal experience that I came to that belief, but I do agree that they are intended for our personal growth, understanding, protection, or refreshing.  I do not believe that visions, dreams, and prophesy are intended to provide new revelation but are intended to enhance our understanding of present Scripture.  The scripture quoted by Peter on Pentecost is very interesting in that in Joel is futuristic with a continueing tone when it occurs (looking to Christ) and in Acts it is occurring right then in a continueing fashion.   No where does it say there will be an end to visions, dreams, and prophesy .  I am not sure as to the actual method of delivery (HS or angel -- maybe by whatever means is best at the time) but either way, they come from God.

I hope this discussion will continue with others coming in on it.  If it does, I will post my personal experiences (and some observations I have made) that have caused me to reach these conclussions some time back.  I will say that I have felt comfortable telling only a very few close friends in the church besides by own family (almost no one locally--very conservative/traditional area).  I believe there are probably many members of the CoC that have had experiences of this nature but will not talk about them because of the fear of being jumped on by those who don't believe that they still occur (and who tend to be much more aggressive and vocal than those who do!).

Wiley

[WileyClarkson]

One thing I might need to clarify when I say I believe many Christians have had dreams, visions, heard a small inner voice, or have prophesied.  I don't believe the first three occur except under very special conditions in a person's life and may only occur a very few times or may never occur .  Prophesy is something a little different and I do believe we may see it occassionly when it helps the church.  I have experienced what I define as one vision and three times where I heard "a small inner voice" that occurred immediately prior to a situation.  One of those times that "small inner voice" practically yelled in my head and saved mine and my wife's lives because I reacted to the voice almost instantly.  I have never dreamed dreams that I would classify as a part of this discussion although if it does occur to me, I hope I will be open to them.

I would say from my own personal study that this is how I define the above actions:

1.  Dreams:  probably communication from angels and occur only when the person is sleeping.

2.  Visions:  occur only when the receiving subject is awake and can see the vision through his/her eyes.  The person may or may not notice passage of physical time during the vision.  I'm not sure how the vision is supplied--whether by an angel or by the HS.  I lean toward the HS in this case.

3.  Night vision:  same definition but occurs at night.   This is not a dream but may occur immediately after waking up or maybe during a time of wakefull nighttime contemplation on a subject.

4.  Small inner voice:  basically hearing a quiet voice in the mind but can be so loud that it immediately grabs your attention and you can react to it.  Probably from angels.

5.  Prophecy:  I don't believe this is a telling of the future style of prophesy or a new revelation and I don't think prophesy occurs on a one person basis that is written down for others.  Prophesy is an audible response that requires listeners, which includes people who are to determine the validity of the teaching (see 1st Cor).  I have been in worship a few times when I believe I did hear a person teaching under the guidance of the HS.  

Hope this is food for thought and discussion!

Wiley



[!--EDIT|WileyClarkson|May 03 2002,8:55--]

[Arkstfan]

The closest I have come to such an experience was a few weeks ago. I wrote out my communion devotional and went to bed. I prayed that I would have the right words for the devotional. A few hours later I wake up and immediately get up and grab paper and pen and write an entirely new devotional that had come to me and caused me to wake up.

[WileyClarkson]

Bob,

I will post later about the "small inner voice" that many in our fellowship dismiss as nothing but mind tricks.  What I am going to post now is the only "vision" I have ever had.  I truely hope God will see fit to give me another someday and I will definitely be receptive to it.  This may be a very long post, so have some patience when reading it.

Several years ago, my wife underwent a very extended single surgery.  It wasn't a life threatening condition but a form of corrective surgery on her jaw/head.  It took 10 hours from the time she was wheeled out to the time I was again able to see her--eight of those hours were under anesthesia and actual surgery.  This was an out patient surgery and she went home in 23 hours with a head the size of a basketball and totally unrecognizable by anyone for about 3 days.  The only way I recognized her at first was by the color of her eyes--which are almost unique!  I was the chief nurse (of course!) and was unable to return to worship until the 2nd Sunday following the surgery which occured on a Friday.  When I was in worship that Sunday, during the first prayer of the Lord's Supper, I had the "vision".  At the time it occured, I was fairly stressed out, probably a little worried about leaving her alone (which she had dutifully told me she would be just fine before I left!), and physically tired, but I was happy to be able to be back in worship and be able to lead singing that Sunday.  Linda , of course, could not return to worship for a couple of more weeks.  Anyway, during the prayer, I had my head bowed and was looking at the floor when everything went black during the middle of a word for an instant and I seemed to go through a tunnel very quickly.  When the blackness left I was standing at the foot of Golgotha and looking up from a distance at the crucifiction.  It was in full color--very vivid colors!  Much more vivid that my normal dreams which seem to occure in B&W of light shades of colors.  I could see Jesus on the cross but from a distance.  As I stood there I was zoomed up the hill to the base of the cross.  The only description I can give is that the feeling was comparable to being drawn through a zoom lense picture.  Everything blurred/streaked as it occurred.  When I stopped, I was looking at the bleeding feet of Jesus from just above the ankles down with his feet at about eye level.  I could see the nails and the bright red blood dripping.  I wanted to look up but could not.  I was standing in a state of awe.  There was no noise at all and I couldn't move.  It seemed like probably 5 to 10 minutes passed from the bottom of the hill to the time everything went black again and I was viewing the floor.  The funny thing was that I came back out of it at the exact same sylable in the middle of the exact same word of the prayer that I had left.  No time had passed in that room, yet I knew time had passed for me during the vision.  I was also very relaxed.

This is the most complete description I have ever told or written on the vission.  I did not mention this to anyone for several days after it occurred.  Then, after thinking about it and letting the experience really sink in, I told two people:  My friend Randy Dunn (now an ex-minister), and Edward Fudge, an elder who I corresponded with occassionally).  Randy basically told me that I was very fortunate to have had the experience.  Edward called it a "time of refreshment from God when I apparently needed it very much".  Both men are what I would call grace centered Christians.  I did not tell anyone else (including my wife and children) for almost two years after it had occurred.  I think my wife would have been receptive (knowing some of my past experiences with inner voices) but she was still very traditional  at the time and I think this might have been too much.  I finally told her and several others at a small group session at Stream in the Desert a couple of years ago which was being led by our good friend (and minister at the time) Lester Duncan.  I still don't talk about it much though.  I really prefer to just keep it to myself as a special gift from God.  However, in the interest of exploring the subject, I am relating it here.  Maybe my story will induce others in the CoC to talk about visions still occurring.  Maybe someday, someone will undertake a book on the subject, the way Joe B. stepped out with "Seeing the Unseen".

From personal experience and studying about the occurrences of visions from both the OT and NT, I have come to the conclussion that (1) visions only occur during waking moments (a no-brainer :>) ) (2)  they can occur within our time frame where time passage is noted around us and outside our time frame where no noticable time passage occurs around us (3)That there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that even suggests visions have ceased (4) they are not the same as hearing a small voice or having a dream and (5) most people are very hesitant to talk about them when they do occur--me included.

Any thoughts?

God bless,

Wiley

[seekr]

Wiley

My husband (ex-skeptic) also had a vision and God took him somewhere and spoke with him. It was of a very personal nature and is not anything I can really speak of. He, like you, did not tell me for the first couple of days, as God had prepared him how to show me the things that were required. and he was shaken, kind of like when Moses had his face veiled. During those couple of days, I was having dreams that coincided with his vision, which helped draw him out to tell me. We are still going through some of what God has revealed to us, for the last few months.

Wiley, one thing I would like to ask, though, is, what did your vision mean? What was the significance of it? Has God revealed that to you? I know that God uses these things to show His love and concern for us, but they change something in us. I think maybe there is more to it and God may show you more later.

Ark, I know what you mean about your writing that, as so often that is how my writings come about. The words are just there and God uses them first, in my life, then with others and He breaks me sometimes with them and leaves me with tears of praise. My first thought with what you wrote, was of Nathanael, when Jesus said, "you believe because i said I saw you under the figtree?" and that "you will see greater things than that". The very hairs on our head are numbered.

seekr

[marc]

Seekr, there is another reason why I questin my own experiences, one that has to do with another side of my background.  The legalistic background probably isn't as strong as that of many others--my congregation growing up was one of the first to begin changing, and one of the first to be villified by other churches (we were withdrawn from by another congregation back in '80).  The other part of my background, which I alluded to in an earlier post, has to do with my mother's family.  I grew up close to this family, which was (and is) very superstitious.  Many old-time ways from deep in the hills (and, from what I've been able to figure out, from Ireland). It is a struggle for me sometimes to separate the supertitions I grew up with from the working of the Spirit and God speaking to us.  I always feel I have to be careful not to cross the line into superstition.

I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about (at the risk of never being taken seriously again).  I believe I encountered and angel when I was four or five.  I walked into an empty room (in the middle of the day) and saw a white figure.  I became terrified, and whatever I saw said "Don't be afraid; I won't hurt you."  

This is a very real memory for me, but many would call it a superstition.  I believe it really happened. Why I believe it happened, and why I believe the angel (this is how I think of it based on Biblical descriptions of angels, which often are met with fear and utter the phrase "don't be afraid" or something similar) was there, though, would cross over into the realm of superstition, and that is something I'm not quite willing to talk about.  I will say, though, that Joe Beam's book helped my understanding in some regards.

I realize now that I really can't say enough to explain what I'm talking about.  Basically, though, I have superstitious tendencies that at times I have to guard against.  And this can sometimes make me miss out on actually hearing God's voice. I believe God speaks--I just haven't yet learned how to separate God's voice from my own rather strong imagination.

[marc]

This whole discussion, combined with what just happened, make me wonder whether I should post this.  I had just completed a fairly long post when I hit some key (I suppose) that made the whole thing vanish from my screen.  Well, here goes another try anyway.

I have had experiences (mostly when I was younger) that even some (probably most) on this board would have a hard time accepting.  Up until I was six, I was raised by my grandmother while my mother worked.  She was an unusual woman who, because of both tendencies inherited from her Irish grandparents and her being raised deep in the West Virginia hills, was open to many things most of us are not.  Because of her, I am open to many, many experiences.

As I was growing up, though, I was taught at church that it was dangerous to even say that God had specifically answered our prayers.  After all, I was told, how do we know for sure?  The elders at my congregation changed drastically while I was a teenager and after, and are now much more open (and grace-centered).

As an adult, I have while teaching (or somtimes only sitting in) class and confronted either with a difficult passage or an unexpected question, had an answer come to me that I have never even considered.  Usually, this leads to a greater understanding of a biblical concept (this has happened concerning both the cross and forgiveness). I am willing to say this came from God.  After all, as I heard a preacher say once, we should never be afraid to give God too much credit.

When I read Wiley's story, I believe it.  At the same time, I realize many will reject this automatically.  And I realize that I have rejected too many things myself.

One reason I am unsure at times about what comes from God and what does not is something I do away from this board.  I write fiction--what I prefer to call supernatural suspense (non-graphic horror).  For what it's worth, I'm not much for marketing this--I've received a series of personal rejection letters and phone calls (at least not many form letters), but still have trouble bringing myself to submitting my work.

Anyway, the first book I wrote began as a dream.  And when I wrote the dream down, the rest of the book came to me--the plot, the characters, the words, everything.  There was no conscious thought process involved.

So you can see why I'm reluctant to say specifically that things come from God, or more accurately, to say what to attribute to him.

[WileyClarkson]

Marc,

There is a really good study on angels written by Dr. Edward Meyers.  I believe the title is "Angels".  I have it here at the house but I can't find it right at the moment to be exact on the title (one of my daughters probably has it since I bought the revised edition at Lectureship this year).  Joe Beam has said that Meyers study is the best and most scriptural to be found anywhere and refers to Meyers in his book when he is talking about angels.  It's available through 21st Century Christian.

My wife and a friend of hers are convinced that they "entertained" an angel on the side of a lonely country road one evening coming home from evening worship. I wasn't there but for my still fairly traditional CoC wife to make a statement like that, I would not ever dream of questioning the incident!  I have personally never seen an angel, but after seeing some of the things that have occurred in my life, I do not question that you may have indeed been given a gift by God at a very young age.  My personal view is that a child will see or hear an angel much quicker than us older people!  We seem to pick up too much scepticism as we grow older and will tend to poo-poo reports of any of the things we are talking about.  I have seen things in my life that really border on the Twilight Zone: eg: being within 10 feet of a Marfa Light (with two other students) when I was attending Sul Ross Universtiy in Alpine, TX in 1971.  When I get to Heaven, one of the things I plan to ask about is what that thing actually was that I saw up that close that most people only see from about 5 miles distance.

In a previous post, I talked about the small inner voice.  I believe that the voice some hear in times of danger or personal tragedy is either one of two things:  a) we are hearing the Holy Spirit talking to us, or b) we are hearing angels such as a guardian angel or a messenger angel.
I personally lean toward option b as communication with man for God is a primary function of angels and acting as guardians of man in some situations is a secondary function.  In this particular thought, I have heard that voice several times in my life.  I heard it the first time when my father died unexpectedly on Good Friday, 1967, when I was 18 years old.  I was more than 80 miles from his location on a downtown Ft. Worth street corner.  At the moment he died, I heard a voice that said "...father is dead" and I looked at my watch to see what time it was.  It was a very strange feeling that I dismissed and I returned to fishing.  The time was the time of death on the street corner.  The Tarrant County Medical Examiner (and a friend of my father) just happened to be standing with him when he went down.  About two hours later, a friend drove down from Ft. Worth to bring me the bad news.  

Another time I am going to relate was the summer of 1980 when my wife and I were on our way up the pass that is south of Lake City, Colorado, after having been to Utah for a Tupperware convention.  About half way up the pass is a senic overlook that looks out over the lakes in the valley.  The road to and after the overlook has sheer drop offs that go down many hundreds of feet and at that time, there were not very many guard rails on the road.  I don't normally (actually very rarily) stop for pictures.  Being a professional photographer during that time, I usually made mental notes of pictures that I would like to come back and make when there was lighting conditions.  I was going up the pass at a fairly good pace when I heard a voice say "take a picture" so loud that I reacted by whipping off the road at a speed that startled my wife, especially since she knows I like to plan a picture rather than do snapshots. The road just past the overlook takes a blind curve back to the left with a drop off in the climbing lane of several hundred feet.  As my somewhat startled wife and I got out of the car, we heard tires squealing and looked up to see a car coming around the bend heading down apparently without brakes and way above the speed limit in our climbing lane and out of control.  If we had just kept going instead of whipping in like I did,  I don't imagine my wife and I would be here today because the collision would have probably carried us over the edge of the cliff at that curve and my kids would have grown up with their grandparents.  Part of my business was photographing vehicle accidents and accident scenes after the fact and I had a habit of mentally analyzing possibilities for situations.  I have a burned in memory of that particular part of the road because of the probability of what would have happened if I had just kept driving!  I have driven that particular stretch of road probably ten times since 1980 and I have a very vivid recollection of that day every time I drive past that turnout.

Didn't mean to get to rambling like I did (lunch time in front of a computer!).

God bless,

Wiley

[nerdneh]

Julie, some folks believe our subconscious is trying to get in touch with our consciousness and ransacks our mental warehouse to put together the scenes of dreams. That is the psychological explanation. The spiritual explanation would be that God desires to provide guidance for us and can use any sort of method He chooses. Perhaps dreams are a good time since we are otherwise relaxed and the imagery is more powerful than some other form of communication. I would believe that you must have a burden for helping the poor and those suffering rejection. Children are sometimes an image for people that are helpless, or as powerless as children. So, perhaps you are being reminded that you have a healing capacity that could bless less fortunate people. Are there any particular situations involving powerless people that you have been agonized over lately?

[patriciaredstone]

I was taught years ago by an elder in the Church of Christ who is also a Jungian psychologist (YES!!) when the dream is over and you are working from your conscious mind, imagine that you are each element in the dream in the order they appear on the stage. "I am the church ... I am my husband ... I am the car ... I am my children .... I am my boss ... I am the child ... I am the pine box ... I am the canopy ... I am the black people ... I am the white people ... " Then express them with these questions, "I see (fill in the blank), I hear (fill in the blank), I want (fill in the blank), I need (fill in the blank). Your interpretation will come. I have been using this method for so long that, now, sometimes, I can ask my soul these questions while I am dreaming and the answers come in more detail ... more directly. But each detail in the dream might be compelling you to some deeper questions. The details in a dream are often the best clues to the interpretation. The pine box coffin is particularly interesting to me. (Careful! I don't want to spoil your own interpretation!) It is made out of crude pine and the lid is off. These are important details. The canopy is also an unusual, but easy to overlook detail ... what is that about? Was there music playing in the car on the way to the funeral? What about the road? Was there anything ususual about it? In most cases the important details will come out in your first telling. But the more you use this method, the more the details will stand out to you. If your soul knows that you are listining it will strike up some great conversations! There are also some strong Messiah overtones. Jesus was called to resurrect a child. If you are right that your dream is about your struggle as a woman against rulers and powers, that would fit since women can relate to being abused, excluded, denounced, despised and rejected, marginalised and oppressed.

[Beverly Nuckols (hocndoc)]

I still believe the mustard seed analogy. And do not believe that the age of miracles has passed.  "My words will  never pass away."

[marc]

A bit farther south, in Boone County.  I'm from Lincoln County myself.  I did spend some time in Parkersburg, though (a year at OVC, where I did take a class taught by the aforementioned Dr. Meyers).

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (WileyClarkson @ May 03 2002,7:11)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Visions, dreams, and prophesy is something I have been interested in for a long time and done some study here and there on it.  I do not believe they have ceased, nor will they cease until Christ returns.  I won't go into my reasons for that in this particular post except that it is through personal experience that I came to that belief, but I do agree that they are intended for our personal growth, understanding, protection, or refreshing.  I do not believe that visions, dreams, and prophesy are intended to provide new revelation but are intended to enhance our understanding of present Scripture.  [/quote]
Wiley,

I kind of agree with what you posted several months ago (quoted above), but I have some questions.

I don't think that the Holy Spirit will reveal anything to us in dreams or visions that contradict what he has already revealed because God will not contradict himself.  I also don't believe that our dreams and visions are to be put on a par with the Word of God.

However, I think God can reveal "new" things in visions and dreams.  Do I mean new doctrine?  No.  What I mean is that he can, if he so desires, tell us something about someone we are praying for that we would never get from the Word.  He can reveal to us a flaw within ourselves through dreams and visions.  He can reveal things about our culture that didn't have anything to do with Biblical times.

Just my two cents,

Kevin (who has never had a dream or a vision but who has sensed God telling him things during prayer)

[seekr]

Wendy, I agree with your statement--"but he may show us something we hadn't yet realized or understood."

God has been knocking my socks off with that one. Boy, have my perceptions changed. It is like i never did know anything and I search scripture now, and wait for God to reveal. I feel like I have been a tough case, as I wrestle with God over what He is showing me. Being a follower of Him, is nothing like what i thought. Still in awe.

Maurine

[WileyClarkson]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]from Kevin:  I don't think that the Holy Spirit will reveal anything to us in dreams or visions that contradict what he has already revealed because God will not contradict himself.  I also don't believe that our dreams and visions are to be put on a par with the Word of God.
[/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Wendy said:  The conscience/intuition is what I think Wiley referred to in a post on this thread about the inner voice. I think the HS speaks to us through our conscience and intuition, which is all part of our inner spirit (different from our soul and our physical body...but that's another thread).

I agree with what Kevin said that he will not give us anything that contradicts scripture (reading and knowing God's word is what helps us discern whether what we think or hear or see in a vision or whatever is from God), but he may show us something we hadn't yet realized or understood.
[/quote]

Right on --both of you.  We are in 100% agreement!

Wendy,

were you by any chance in Dr. John Willis' Sunday morning class on Sunday Aug 11?  Linda and I were finishing our vacation by staying overnight at the state park, visiting a daughter, and visiting Highland.  Willis married our oldest daughter so we went to his class and found it quite interesting and thought provoking!  I can understand why my daughter, Shannon, likes him so much!

[WileyClarkson]

BTW, I remembered that couple's name to look for:  Trey and Marla Finley.  He is working for ACU now.  

Wish I could have been in the entire class out there.  Might be pushing the envelope a little at Granbury for that type of class right now.  There are still alot of members that will have probelms with just even considering the idea of visions, etc.