Apologetics vs Honor

[NyawehNyoh]

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It's very difficult to find a Christian with integrity, viz: one that can give you a direct answer to a direct question about their beliefs and practices.

When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic; the average Christian typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become defensive. Instead of forthrightly agreeing that the critical thinker's appraisals make sense; the defensive Christian waxes eloquent with a bombastic discourse, deftly concealing the unspeakable truth that they too have sometimes entertained the very same opinions.

I sincerely believe God appreciates honesty and totally despises deceit. So; if perchance the day comes when God asks each of us point blank:

Was there ever a time when you felt that some of my actions were unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

Or:

Was there ever at time when you wished I didn't exist?

The answers coming out of our mouths better not be what we think He wants to hear, or some scripted response learned in church, rather; exactly what He knows already, i.e. it had better not be equivocation, sophistry, or tiresome rhetoric, no, it had better be a crisp Yes or a No; and it had better be honest.
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[4WD]

When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic; the average Christian typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become defensive. Instead of forthrightly agreeing that the critical thinker's appraisals make sense

When a rational skeptic points out that some of God's actions are not only unreasonable, but also downright evil, selfish, and sadistic, rational Christian's answer should be that the rational skeptic doesn't know what he is talking about.  And he should probably leave it at that because it is not at all probable that the skeptic, who thinks he is rational, will be convinced that any answer the Christian could give would be rational.

[NyawehNyoh]

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There are occasions when I prefer to sympathize with skeptics rather than argue with them seeing as how I and they have many opinions in common; for example:

GOD'S QUESTION: Should I have stepped in to prevent the Serpent from tempting Eve?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD'S QUESTION: Was there ever a time when you resented My control over your life?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD'S QUESTION: Are you dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of Fire?

MY RESPONSE: Yes; both.

GOD'S QUESTION: Was there ever a time when you felt that some of My actions were unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD'S QUESTION: Was there ever a time when you wished I didn't exist?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

The Bible urges Christ's followers to come before the throne of grace with boldness. (Heb 4:15-16). The Greek word for boldness is parrhesia (par-rhay-see' ah) which means all out-spokenness, i.e. frankness, bluntness, and/or candor.

For many years I suppressed my deepest thoughts and feelings about God, and about Jesus too, because those thoughts and feelings were just too unholy to out. Thus I kept a certain amount of my innermost being secret from God. Well; in time I came to a realization that keeping secrets from God is not only stressful, but also quite futile.

Transparency is a popular buzz word that roughly means free from pretense or deceit. When I see a Christian go ballistic with an apologetic, I know they're hiding something, and terrified that somebody will come along and figure it out.
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[4WD]

size=10pt]There are occasions when I prefer to sympathize with skeptics rather than argue with them seeing as how I and they have many opinions in common; for example:

GOD'S QUESTION: Should I have stepped in to prevent the Serpent from tempting Eve?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.[/size]

Clearly you do not even understand God's purpose in creating the physical universe in the first place.  So neither your questions nor your answers are rational.

And I will just leave it there and someone else can entertain the rest of your irrational questions and answers.

[NyawehNyoh]

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Clearly you do not even understand God's purpose in creating the physical universe in the first place.  So neither your questions nor your answers are rational. And I will just leave it there and someone else can entertain the rest of your irrational questions and answers.

I didn't set this thread up for posting apologetics, rather, for discussing apologetics; especially relative to honesty.

So instead of attacking my honest responses to God's questions, how about you sharing your own honest responses, i.e. what you would honestly say to God were He to ask you the questions that I listed in Reply No.2

Don't be afraid to be transparent. God respects the truth, and despises deceit.
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[NyawehNyoh]

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FAQ: Why would God ask any of these questions?

A: There are many things that God knows about people that He doesn't have to ask. However, there are times when knowing alone doesn't satisfy Him.

For example: God already knew in advance whether Abraham would go thru with sacrificing his son Isaac. But knowing is different than actually watching a current event in real time, as an on-scene eye witness.

In other words: what God knows in His head is very different than what He's seen for himself. Same thing applies to Sodom and Gomorrah, It wasn't necessary for God to come down out of Heaven and visit the city for Himself to know that it was a deplorable community, but He did anyway because He wanted to see for Himself up close and personal as an eye witness. Same goes for the Tower of Babel.

And Christ most likely knew in advance Peter's innermost thoughts when asked how he felt about Jesus (John 21:15-17). But the Lord wasn't satisfied till Peter came out with his feelings one on one, face to face, man to man.

Speaking for myself: I look forward to a sit down with God with about as much pleasure as I look forward to a root canal; and like a root canal; I will be very glad when it's over because I suspect that the grilling we're all facing won't be pleasant.

There are many questions in life that we can brush off as too personal; but God can't be brushed off. If we try, He will only dig in His heels and force the issue till we finally break.
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[Amo]

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There are occasions when I prefer to sympathize with skeptics rather than argue with them seeing as how I and they have many opinions in common; for example:

GOD'S QUESTION: Should I have stepped in to prevent the Serpent from tempting Eve?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD'S QUESTION: Was there ever a time when you resented My control over your life?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD'S QUESTION: Are you dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of Fire?

MY RESPONSE: Yes; both.

GOD'S QUESTION: Was there ever a time when you felt that some of My actions were unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

GOD'S QUESTION: Was there ever a time when you wished I didn't exist?

MY RESPONSE: Yes.

The Bible urges Christ's followers to come before the throne of grace with boldness. (Heb 4:15-16). The Greek word for boldness is parrhesia (par-rhay-see' ah) which means all out-spokenness, i.e. frankness, bluntness, and/or candor.

For many years I suppressed my deepest thoughts and feelings about God, and about Jesus too, because those thoughts and feelings were just too unholy to out. Thus I kept a certain amount of my innermost being secret from God. Well; in time I came to a realization that keeping secrets from God is not only stressful, but also quite futile.

Transparency is a popular buzz word that roughly means free from pretense or deceit. When I see a Christian go ballistic with an apologetic, I know they're hiding something, and terrified that somebody will come along and figure it out.
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Ended up on this thread somehow, by accident. Old as it may be, seems worth addressing, as my experience has been.

GOD'S QUESTION: Should I have stepped in to prevent the Serpent from tempting Eve?

Absolutely not. The price of freedom has always been very high. As demonstrated by God Himself in Christ Jesus our Lord, through whom both Father and Son have suffered far far more than any other for allowing of the same.
Those who do not understand or agree with this, do not obviously understand or agree with God. Who both allowed for wrong decisions to be made, and has paid an infinite price for doing so. Those who will or do not agree with this, need not worry, they will no longer have to do or deal with such after this life.

Praise His holy, pure, righteous, undefiled name.

GOD'S QUESTION: Was there ever a time when you resented My control over your life?

Absolutely not. Having been raised basically heathen, and choosing the truth and submission to God every step of the way, failing to live up to the highest ideals which God sets before humanity many times over along the way, I know from experiential knowledge that God has never controlled any part of my life which I have not freely given to Him. Nor will He. Save the basic functions of life itself, which also allow me a life within to make such crucial decisions.

Praise His holy, pure, righteous, undefiled name.

GOD'S QUESTION: Are you dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of Fire?

Absolutely not. Mercy and Justice are absolute, pure, righteous, and holy attributes of the God we worship. Both meet perfectly in and through our redeemer and Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise His holy, pure, righteous, undefiled name.

GOD'S QUESTION: Was there ever a time when you felt that some of My actions were unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

Absolutely not. Questions have arisen, but considering the clear testimony and demonstration of God's love and wisdom which far surpasses that of all others, I trust and can know that such is not true. These are the suggestions of the evil one, which authentic biblical faith may easily overcome.

Praise His holy, pure, righteous, undefiled name.

GOD'S QUESTION: Was there ever a time when you wished I didn't exist?

Nonsensical gibberish. If He didn't exist, neither would we, or anything else. There would be no questions or answers concerning anything. God simply has, does, and always will exist. The pertinent question for humanity, is whether or not they will continue to exist along with Him. Which scenario He has graciously provided for us through His Son Christ Jesus our Lord.

Praise His holy, pure, righteous, undefiled name.

Nevertheless, as you suggest, all may come before Him with honest and open hearts and thoughts, to seek and obtain greater understanding of their heavily Father. He is far above and beyond being offended by us, and is always ready to extend love and mercy to those seeking the truth.

Praise His holy, pure, righteous, undefiled name.

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

[Hawkins]

You need a change of perspective. God, as demanded by Law, is responsible for putting everyone to death in one way or another. It is a curse

GOD'S QUESTION: Should I have stepped in to prevent the Serpent from tempting Eve?

You might have missed the big picture.

First, ancient humans lack the ability to convey a simple truth, to the next generation. That's why Noah's event can be found as a myth in the different cultures. That is to say, plain truth will inevitably turn into a my by ancient humans.

In order to convey a truth, God has to first turn plain facts into a story form, such that the well-trained up Jews can convey a story faithfully, with God standing behind the scene. God makes sure that the story is intact through the path of how it is conveyed via the ancient Jews. God didn't convey quantum physics as a truth, or else you already know who God is without putting in any faith. That is, if the Jews have conveyed quantum physics as a truth from God, then today you don't need faith to tell that God exists, or else the Jews 3000 years ago can't possibly know what quantum physics is.

God however chose to convey a story such that even today you need Faith to approach God. In today's world, an Eden story is more like a text file by encrypted before transmitting/conveying. You need a key from the author to decrypt it to tell what is said.

To put it another way, you closer you are to God the Author the better the answer you might possibly get. Christians have a sense to do this decryption even bearing in mind that they might not be close to God enough to own the full decryption. All left is the faith as demanded by the New Covenant which will be used as a judgment on whether one is saved or not.

That being said. The purpose of Eden is to be served as a pre-existed model of Heaven to be built. God is to build an eternity called New Earth and New Heaven. Eden foreshadowed it to see what would happen.

The final Heaven is a place with God, angels and humans living together with high satisfaction. To model this, you need an environment with God, angels and humans interacting with each other. Angels, by their design purpose, are made to be much more capable and intelligent than humans. Humans are made to be much less intelligent but with a full extent of freewill granted. That's why Genesis describes Satan the fallen angel as the "most crafty snake" (relative to the much less intelligent humans). The book of Revelation also hinted that there would be 1/3 angels turned out to be the fallen angels, as an act of freewill.

Freewill on the other hand, is about mathematics. Freewill at the end means an entity is given the ability to oppose God. By mathematics, that is statistics and probabilities to be more specific, some will choose to oppose God while other not. It's like throwing a coin with head and tail. Statistically you'll get half of each the more times you throw it. In terms of math it is called a normalized expected outcome.

Similarly, in terms of the degree of freewill granted, 1/3 angels will fall as the mathematical expected outcome. Humans are given the full extent of freewill. When measured by Law (for a reason), the mathematical expected outcome for humans to be saved would be less than 1/3. Humans are saved through the narrow gate, this is mathematical.

By freewill alone, the math is that 2/3 angels with less than 1/3 humans will be permitted by Law to enter the final Heaven.

However, another factor jammed in. It's a factor of how the much more intelligent angels manipulating the much less intelligent humans. Humans are referred to as completely captive from this perspective. The much more intelligent fallen angels (1/3 of all angels) can effectively keep all mankind under their captivity if they wish to. Captivity simply means no human can pass the Judgment of Law (the same Law which qualifies 2/3 angels) to enter Heaven, under the influence of Satan and his fallen angels.

Now if the question is still "should Adam be tempted?", the answer should be a big "What?!".

[Hawkins]

deleted.

[Hawkins]

With Law in place, the 1/3 fallen angels can effectively block the whole mankind from being saved. That's why Jesus (His crucifixion to be more specific) is needed, as demanded by Law, for humans to be saved alternatively such that a Heaven can be built with God living with both angels and humans.

With Covenant in place then, humans are no longer subject to Law (of which all humans would be sentenced to death without exception, that's how it is said that no one is righteous, not even one). Humans are not judged by Covenant instead of Law. By the Judgment of Covenant, 1/3 humans or less will be saved at the end, through that narrow gate.

The question left is what would happen to the 2/3 and more humans after they leave God. "Sending to hell" is a Jewish concept developed from the Jewish custom of speaking and writing in the sense and perspective God's absolute sovereignty.

The establishment of a place outside of God's dwelling realm is that God doesn't maintain its status quo. God's influence will diminish and be absent at the end. In such a realm (literally including planet earth), the most evil and the most powerful will naturally rule at the end. Satan happens to be such a figure. If Satan is removed, someone most evil and most powerful will fill up his place, naturally.

Isaiah 14:17
the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?

"World" here can be any realm where God's influence is diminishing or absent. Satan will turn it to a wilderness and keeping any entity under his captivity. That's what hell is. That's why Satan is referred to as "the god of this world", in terms of his influence and how he turns a world into a wilderness. Satan is the god in a realm without God. That's how it is said that God is the god of living, not the god of the dead. Hell is a place God is absent and that Satan stood out to rule.

Satan is a capable person but lacks the ability to counter the true nature. Our universe is not the true nature. It's God-made instead. The true nature should be filled with energy and fire. In a realm where Satan rules (while God doesn't upkeep and maintain) will inevitably turn into not only a wilderness but also a burning hell (by returning to the true nature which Satan, as the literal god of the realm, is incapable to counter).

[Hawkins]

That being said. The problem of humans is, and which Satan is making use of, they rely on their intelligence to act. That's why they ask questions as the OP asked (as an act of trusting human intelligence). That's the prophesied Tree of Knowledge, and the day you choose to eat of it the same day you shall surely die (the second death).

You need faith, not intelligence (which is much lower than Satan's), to determine what your own fate should be.