Capital punishment

[charlie]

I first read Telushkin's book "Jewish Literacy". It, and "Biblical Literacy" are fantastic books. I got to hear Rabbi Yossi on the radio one time. He's so wonderful to listen to.

That being said, I don't believe capital punishment is consistent with Christian doctrine the way it is with Jewish doctrine. Jewish Law had sins atoned for by the blood of the sacrifices and removed from the assembly by some punishment, stoning in the case of murder. Christians atone for their sins through the blood of Jesus and remove sinners from our assemblies by withdrawal of fellowship, but only in the case of the persistently unrepentant. If Christians do not kill their own to cleanse the community as the Jews did, then why should a "christian" nation do that?

If the law of the land says that murder is punishable by death, then death it must be. But if you're asking Jesus' blessings on an execution, I don't believe you will find it.

[spurly]

I have gone back and forth on the issue of capital punishment, but currently I am not an advocate of the practice.

Why?  Because in taking someone's life, we may be taking it just a few minutes before the person would repent and so be saved.

Just my two cents.

Kevin

[Richard]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (James Rondon @ Feb. 04 2003,01:41)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]spurly wrote:
I have gone back and forth on the issue of capital punishment, but currently I am not an advocate of the practice.

Why?  Because in taking someone's life, we may be taking it just a few minutes before the person would repent and so be saved.

Just my two cents.[/quote]
I echo your sentiments, throwing in a few of my own cents...  :thumbup:[/quote]
I'm with you guys.
Life in prison - Sure.
Hard Labor - Sure
Death Penalty - I don't think so

It is true that there are some cases in which I sure wished I believed differently.

Richard

[Nevertheless]

Charlie,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]There are things that God would not have us do, but for which there is no condemnation (e.g. divorce). I believe capital punishment is just such a thing.[/quote]

That sounds good, and right , and proper, but when I read about God ordering capital punishment for certain offenses in the OT, it just doesn't fly.  In the example you gave, God allowed divorce, (even though He hates it) but did not command it.  That is not so with capital punishment.

If we had only the examples of God administering the punishment Himself, (such as the flood & Sodom & Gomorrah) then you would get no argument from me.  But God usually works through people to accomplish His goals.  

God ordered the Israelites to execute entire populations, not because of individual crimes such as murder or rape, but because the time of God's leniency toward the rebellion of that people group was over.  God could have sent a natural disaster or rained fire from heaven, but He chose to use His people to administer justice.  Again, if this was the only type of capital punishment described in scripture I would not disagree with you, because this example does not apply to us today.

However, there are a number of crimes that God says should be punished by death.  He expects the leaders to see that justice is carried out.  There are many facets to "justice".  One is making sure that the actual perpetrator is the one who is punished.  Another is ensuring that capital punishment is limited to capital offenses.  Another is protection against the abuse of power such as you described in Nero.  And that leads to this rather puzzling statement:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If Romans 13 is to be used to justify capital punishment, then it must also be used to justify Nero's use of Christians as torch fuel for his gardens.[/quote]

That's a bit like saying Hitler's attrocities in the prison camps prove that prisons are immoral and should be disbanded.

Abuse of authority by men in power does not negate God's establishment of authority.


Never

[Nevertheless]

A few questions for consideration:

1. Does personal forgiveness negate natural and legal consequences of wrongdoing?

2. Do scriptural instructions regarding vengeance, forgiveness, and allowing yourself to be wronged apply in all circumstances?  (I'm particularly thinking of soldiers and law enforcement.)

3. Is there a difference between personal vengeance and lawful punishment?

4. If someone were in difficult circumstances due to their own actions would you pray for them? (For example: lung cancer caused by smoking, financial difficulties due to an out-of-wedlock pregnancy, problems related to imprisonment of a criminal, etc.)  

4a. If you would pray for them, does that mean you condone their action?

[Dufrdan]

I just received my copy of a wonderful book, Biblical Literacy, written by one of today's leading Hebrew scholars, Rabbi Joseph Telushkin.  I highly recommend it to all of you.  It is published by William Morrow, ISBN 0-688-14297-4.

Here is one reviewer's comment:  "In one stunning volume, Joseph Telushkin makes the profound ideas, events, and people of the Hebrew Bible engaging and immediately accessible.  With his unique clarity, warmth, and wit, he leads us, masterfully, on a joyful journey through the most influential book in human history.  Biblical Literacy is a gift."

I noted the following essay while scanning the Table of Contents and wanted to share it with you.

Dan Smith
Sparks, NV
[a href=\"mailto:dufrdan@opexonline.com\"]dufrdan@opexonline.com[/a]



"Whoever Sheds the Blood of Man"

Genesis 9:6

On Murderers and the Death Sentence

Rabbi Joseph Telushkin

The following is taken from Biblical Literacy (pp 405-408) --


The biblical belief that murderers deserve to be executed is so fundamenta1 that it is legislated long before God's covenant with Abraham; thus, the law mandating the death sentence for those who shed innocent blood is directed not only toward Israelites but all mankind.

After the Flood with which God devastates the world, God makes a covenant with Noah: Never again will He wreak such havoc on mankind in return, Noah and his descendants are to be bound by certain moral standards, whose goal is to ensure that never again will humankind become so wicked that God will be tempted to destroy them. Within this context, God issues the injunction that "whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in His (God's) image, did God make humankind." [NOTE: Because man is the only creature made "in God's image," murderers are considered to have also committed a serious transgression against God.]

Executing murderers is so basic a cornerstone of biblical justice that it is the only law repeated in every one of the Torah's five books.

Exodus 21:12 rules: "He who fatally strikes a person shall be put to death." The Bible intends this punishment only for premeditated murderers, as is clear from the following verse: "If he [the killer] did not do it by design, but it came about by an act of God, I will assign you a place to which he can flee." [NOTE: The "place to which he can flee" is described by later biblical legislation as one of the "cities of refuge."]

Another law stated in Exodus closed off a loophole by which murderers in Phoenicia and Syria (and later in Greece and Rome) could escape or postpone punishment. Chapter 21 verse 14 decrees: "When a man schemes against another and kills him treacherously, you shall take him from My very altar to be put to death." In other, non-Israelite societies, the altar of a temple was regarded as providing absolute security to fugitives, including those who were guilty of premeditated murder. Biblical law finds this notion repugnant. During the reign of Solomon, the renegade general Joab tries to evade punishment by grasping the horns of an altar. In compliance with the law in Exodus, Solomon instructs his leading general to kill Joab on the spot, justifying the execution by noting "the blood of the innocent that Joab has shed" (I Kings 2:28-34). From the Bible's perspective, permitting a murderer to evade punishment by clinging to God's altar would, in a sense, involve God in an ex post facto alliance with the murderer. The third book of the Torah, Leviticus, reconfirms the ruling in Exodus: "Whoever takes the life of any human being shall be put to death" (24:17). It also legislates the death sentence for parents who sacrifice their children to the idolatrous god Molech (20:2). Because such sacrifices are considered premeditated murders, the only equitable punishment for them is death.

Numbers, the Torah's fourth hook, says this about the treatment of murderers: "Anyone, however, who strikes another with an iron object so that death results is a murderer; the murderer must be put to death" (35:16ff.). Subsequent verses (35:22ff) reiterate that when the killing is unintentional or unpremeditated, the killer is to be provided with a city of refuge to which he can flee from the "avenger of blood."

In modern times, campaigners against the death penalty have often propagated the myth that capital punishment was the original, most primitive punishment inflicted on murderers. Therefore, lesser punishments for those who murder reflect a more advanced society and culture. However, the opposite appears to be true. The societies that surrounded the ancient Hebrews, some of whose legislation is older than that recorded in the Torah, offered murderers alternatives to the death penalty. For example, a victim's family was permitted to accept money from the murderer in return for absolution. It is in repudiation of this practice that the Torah rules: "You may not accept ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of a capital crime, he must be put to death" (Numbers 35:31) [NOTE: Moses Maimonides, the twelfth-century codifier of Jewish law, explains the Bible's rationale: "The soul of the victim is not the property of [his family members] but the property of God"; Mishneb Torah, "Laws of Murder and Preservation of Life," 1:4).] This ruling reflects the biblical belief in one standard of justice, permitting the murderer to escape punishment by paying a bribe would grant a grotesque advantage to wealthy killers. To this day, affluent murderers almost always escape full punishment for their crimes; the Bible regards this as unconscionable. [NOTE: in its concern for equality under the law, the Bible also rules—in a piece of legislation that I believe is unparalleled in any society, ancient or pre-modern—that anyone who beats a slave to death is to be executed (Exodus 21:20).]

Deuteronomy, the Torah's fifth and final book, rules that if a premeditated murderer tries to claim asylum in one of the cities of refuge, he should be expelled and executed: "Do not look on him with pity. Thus you will purge Israel of the blood of the innocent" (19:11-13). In one instance of attempted "judicial murder," the Torah likewise legislates a death sentence: where witnesses falsely testify that a person has committed a capital crime. Such an abuse of the legal system is regarded as so perilous that the Torah rules, "You shall do to him as he schemed to do to his brother.. " (Deuteronomy 19:19).

What accounts for the Torah's unwavering commitment to executing premeditated murderers? First, "... and you shall burn the evil out from your midst" (Deuteronomy 19:19 and 24:7). Because the Bible regards innocent life as being of infinite value, one who murders an innocent person has committed an infinite evil. Therefore, any lesser punishment than death would not fit the crime.

In addition, the Bible wants murderers executed "so that others will hear and be afraid, and such evil things will not again be done in your midst" (Deuteronomy 19:20). Relying on common sense, the Bible assumes that the threat of death can and will deter at least some murderers from killing.

Finally, the Bible believes that innocent blood cries out to God from the earth (Genesis 4:10). [NOTE: Cain was not executed for killing his brother Abel probably because he did not know his blows could cause death, no human being before Abel had died.] A society that lets premeditated murderers live—let alone paroles them from prison, as commonly occurs today—is, from the Bible's perspective a polluted culture, for "blood pollutes the land, and the land can have no expiation for blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who sheds it" (Numbers 35:33).

Out of concern that innocent people not be killed, the Torah places a major restriction on imposing the death sentence: A murderer could be executed only if there were two witnesses to the crime (Deuteronomy 17:6). This explains the relative infrequency with which capital punishment was administered; most murders are not committed in the presence of witnesses, particularly if the murderer knows that in their absence he cannot be executed. The Torah's insistence on two witnesses is likely due to the fact that in biblical times all evidence, other than that supplied by witnesses, was circumstantial. In those days, nothing was known about fingerprints or DNA data.

Because murder is the ultimate crime, the Bible insists that it deserves the ultimate punishment.

[Nevertheless]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] If the law of the land says that murder is punishable by death, then death it must be. But if you're asking Jesus' blessings on an execution, I don't believe you will find it.
[/quote]


How about Romans 13?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. [/quote]

No, it does not specifically mention execution, but the one in authority doesn't "bear the sword" for decoration!


Parallels between Israel and the Church only go so far.  Israel was given both spiritual and civil laws.  The Church is a kingdom "not of this world" and is not supposed to function as a civil government, so comparing disfellowshipping to stoning is invalid.

[James Rondon]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]spurly wrote:
I have gone back and forth on the issue of capital punishment, but currently I am not an advocate of the practice.

Why?  Because in taking someone's life, we may be taking it just a few minutes before the person would repent and so be saved.

Just my two cents.[/quote]
I echo your sentiments, throwing in a few of my own cents...  :thumbup:

[charlie]

Nevertheless,

If Romans 13 is to be used to justify capital punishment, then it must also be used to justify Nero's use of Christians as torch fuel for his gardens. I don't think we want to go there.

God establishes the authority. That doesn't mean he authorizes what that establishment does.

I think Paul said it best when he said, "everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial." There are things that God would not have us do, but for which there is no condemnation (e.g. divorce). I believe capital punishment is just such a thing. Just another symptom of a fallen world.

[Jim Abb]

Paul tells us that in so far as we are able we are to be at peace with all men. If I can lock a man in prison, even solitary confinement if needed, I would still prefer that to execution for the very reason that Kevin gave....a chance for that man to repent and be saved.
Add to that all the innocent that have died over the years: add to that a justice system that is far more likely to execute a poor man or black man than a rich or white man;and finally add that God's justice is far superior to man's and I will gladly leave vengence to the Lord.

[charlie]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Charlie,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
There are things that God would not have us do, but for which there is no condemnation (e.g. divorce). I believe capital punishment is just such a thing. [/quote]


That sounds good, and right , and proper, but when I read about God ordering capital punishment for certain offenses in the OT, it just doesn't fly.  In the example you gave, God allowed divorce, (even though He hates it) but did not command it.  That is not so with capital punishment.
[/quote]
I'm so glad it sounds good, right and proper. I'd be careful in assuming that God still wants us to kill criminals, just because he commanded it in the OT. He commanded a lot of things in the OT that we are not allowed to do anymore.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, there are a number of crimes that God says should be punished by death.  He expects the leaders to see that justice is carried out.  There are many facets to "justice".  One is making sure that the actual perpetrator is the one who is punished.  Another is ensuring that capital punishment is limited to capital offenses.  Another is protection against the abuse of power such as you described in Nero.  [/quote]
What NT commands has God given for the government to follow? The closest thing I can think of is John the Baptist's preaching to the tax collectors and soldiers (representatives of the Roman government) in Luke 3. If you're going by God's eternal commands regarding capital crime (Gen 9:4-7), then you're going to have to also forbid the eating of blood, etc.

I'm not saying murder is okay. But it is circular logic to say that capital punishment fits capital crime. After all, the government chooses what is a capital crime. In countries or states where murderers are not executed, then that is the authority by which the land is governed. Same God there as in places where murderers are executed. The question is, which system does God desire? I know this is an out-of-context proof-text, but "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Repentance takes place after the crime. Then comes forgiveness, not execution.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]  
If Romans 13 is to be used to justify capital punishment, then it must also be used to justify Nero's use of Christians as torch fuel for his gardens. [/quote]  


That's a bit like saying Hitler's attrocities in the prison camps prove that prisons are immoral and should be disbanded.

Abuse of authority by men in power does not negate God's establishment of authority.
[/quote]
You're misunderstanding me. God established the authority of Nero, Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, David Koresh, the Amorites, everybody. That doesn't mean he approves of what they decide should be law. Just because he establishes the authority of parts of our country which execute criminals doesn't mean he approves of the execution of criminals. Just because he once commanded the execution of criminals doesn't mean he wants us to do it now.

Romans 13 is not written to Nero to make him feel justified in having an empire that executes murderers. It is written to Christians to urge them not to revolt against unjust government, but to be good obedient citizens and give the name of Christ a good name in the empire.

I'm not about to overthrow the government of Florida to replace it with one that gives murderers life instead of death. But I am going to say that if we claim to be a "Christian" state, we should seriously rethink our policy regarding capital crime.

Here are some NT verses that may shed some light on God's present attitude:
"Go see what this means, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice'"
"As you have been forgiven, so you must also forgive others"
"If you do not forgive men their sins, your heavenly Father will not forgive your sins"
When Peter was imprisoned and awaited execution by Herod, "constant prayer was offered to God for him by the church." Acts 12:5. Shouldn't they have rather submitted to the government that God had established?