Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?

[Rob]

The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?

[RB]

The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?

The bodily resurrection of both the just and unjust takes place on the last day.

The 1000 years are symbolic of a period of time beginning at the start of NT church age at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and will continue until the last day of this world as we now know it.

Revelation 20:3~"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled, and after that he must be loosed a little season".

The part of this verse which gives people the most problems is the understanding of the thousand years. We read that the angel from heaven~ bound Satan for 1000 years, and some people tend to think, "since it's been more than 1000 years since Christ went to the cross, that can't be the right conclusion". They say that because they are thinking of this chapter as a strictly literal interpretation even though it is "quite obviously" replete with symbolism. Revelation chapter 20 is not speaking of literal objects or times, (this should not even be debatable) it is speaking in symbolic terms of very literal happenings and time. There is a difference! It is using symbolic words which man will recognize as representations of what is happening. i.e., the chain is not a literal chain, it represents or signifies restraint, the key is not a literal key, it represents or signifies authority and ability, power, etc. All we have to do is look at the rest of the chapter to clearly see this. This angel didn't come down from heaven with a literal key. This angel didn't come with a literal great Chain. Satan cannot be bound with a literal Chain nor locked up with a literal lock one does not need to be too smart to understand this. Satan is a spirit being. He must be restrained spiritually by God Himself. Rather than literal, this Language is representative Spiritual language to illustrate binding, and securing, and the key illustrates He has the power and authority to keep bound, or to unlock and set loose.

So if we are not talking about strictly literal things here, what would make anyone think that the 1000 years must be a literal number of years anymore than the chain to hold Satan that 1000 years was a literal chain? The answer is Nothing! Nothing except Church tradition or teachings. It's not literal years! We understand this number 1000 to be symbolic to show us that Satan is being restrained so that he cannot bring this great iniquity and deceive the nations "for the fullness of God's time." Likewise, the bottomless pit or Abyss signifies a void place of nothing, as fathomless as can be imagined, to hold a spirit. So why would we pick the 1000 years out of all these symbolic terms and say it must be taken literally or else we are in gross error? It makes no sense! The main reason that some Theologians take this tact is that they have been taught the Jewish fables that when Christ comes, He's going to free the earthly captivity, bring earthly peace, and reign literally on this earth. Believing this, they seek to discredit any view that Christ won't reign on the earth in literal (the middle east) Jerusalem.

Nevertheless, this view is contrary to all other clear passages in scripture.  When Christ returns, it will be to gather His people in the heavens to meet Him in the air (commonly called the Rapture), raise the unsaved to stand for Judgment, and to cast Satan in the lake of fire. All scripture consistently indicates this takes place at "The Last Day" and at "The Last Trumpet". There is no 1000 year reign on this present earth at the second advent of Christ. Believers reign with Christ "now" having been translated from Satan's power of darkness, into this kingdom of Christ. Either that is true, or it is a lie. There is no in between.

When we study scripture we will find that God often uses certain number of relationships to signify things. For example, the number 3 for the purpose or will of God, as in the 3 times Christ prayed, the 3 times the sheet was let down and God said kill and eat, the 3 times Paul sought the Lord that the thorn in the flesh would be removed from him, the 3 times God came seeking fruit on the fig tree, or the 3 days till the Temple was raised up, etc., etc. Likewise, the number 12 representing the congregation, as in the 12 stars, the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 Apostles, the 12 gates of the city, etc., or the number 7 and it's multiples, 70, 700, 7000 as the "Totality" of whatever is in view. And in this same way the number 10, 100, 1000 is likewise used in a spiritual sense to signifies the fullness of whatever is being spoken about. As an example, as you might say to your wife, "I'll love you for a thousand years". You're not literally putting a number on the time, rather, you're expressing the "fullness" of your Love for her. The 1000 is a symbolic length of time to indicate you'll love her from now till the fullness of time. Whatever that time may literally be, whether it be 10 years, 30 years 63 years, whatever it may be is symbolized by the use of the term a thousand years. And God uses this number in that way in scripture. Also, 666 to represent the NON-ELECT~

Zachariah 13:8,9~And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."

Two third of a whole is 666~one third is a small remnant among the whole.

This angel has put God's seal on Satan that he cannot be loosed till God looses him. God is in control and Satan will be held in restraint until the fulfilling of time that God has set that the nations be not deceived. Remember in 2nd Thessalonians 2 we read that what was being restrained was the iniquity revealed in Satan and that it would be revealed in its time. God has set that time. How long O Lord? It is not given to us to know the date of Christ's return, but Satan is bound the time that it takes to build the Holy Temple, Christ being the chief cornerstone.

Symbolism:
1000 Years = fullness of time
Seal = God's Security
Bottomless Pit = a expanse, an abyss of captivity

This verse 3 of Revelation chapter 20 is illustrating that when The angel came from Heaven, He bound Satan, and cast him into a fathomless void to bind spirits that he would not be allowed to deceive the nations as he was doing at the first advent of Christ. Now is come salvation and strength, because the accuser of the nations has been cast down, and we are free from the death that hung over us as a result of his having us in bondage. God has sealed him, or literally "secured" him that he cannot be loosed upon the Church until all those who are to be sealed of the nations have been sealed (secured) in their foreheads. The Purpose is clearly that God keep him bound till the appointed time after the testimony of the saints is finished and all Israel is saved. When the Lord sets His seal upon something, you can be sure that it won't get out until "the time" the Lord alone releases him. So like everything else here, this seal is "symbolic" of something being "secured of God". No one secured or sealed of God can loose themselves. And my friends, that includes us, the believers. We are eternally secure (sealed) by God. And since it wasn't by our own good that we were secured, it cannot be by our own good we are held secured. Grace!

The question is often asked, "but why is Satan loosed a little season in the future?" It's because this loosing is a prelude to the second advent of Christ and rapture of His Church. At this set time God judges the unfaithful Church by the release of Satan. Satan marshals his army near the time of the Lord's return and comes against the Church (The camp of the saints). The Saints are overcome by Satan and his false prophets, and the Word trampled under foot, and the "true" gospel is silenced in the Holy Temple. There is a famine of hearing the Word of God, for the lawless man (man who won't obey the laws of God) is seated there refusing to accept God's authority (the scriptures) and thus ruling himself, "as if" he was his own god. The faithful who brought the truth are a torment to these people, so that at this time of falling, the unrighteous rejoice because they control the churches and their voice there is the rule. The true Witness (two witnesses) of the truth is silenced. But their rejoicing only lasts a short while, a little season, because Our Lord will come. That's what happens after the 1000 years after Satan is loosed.

I am well aware that the 1000 years being symbolical goes contrary to the thinking of a lot of people brought up in the premillennialist traditions, (which I was and also 3 Resurrections if I remember correctly) and therefore it is "very hard" for many to turn away from those teachings, but we should be interested in truth, not man's tradition. Belief based on scripture is one thing, but indoctrination based on our teachers theories is another. If someone shows me (by Scripture) where I hold a wrong interpretation, I'd like to think that I will still check those verses and gladly change my doctrine, giving thanks to the Lord for his giving me the eyes to see. Never will I blindly hold onto doctrine simply because it is what I have been taught. For one simple reason. I understand that The Holy Spirit is the teacher and I am simply the vessel. I must obey God rather than men. Be true to God rather than be true to my ideas, or my teacher's ideas. Faithfulness, is to God, not theologians. Whosoever is our authority, that is who we serve. Likewise, I would hope that all Christians take that very same philosophy in their study of scripture.

[Rob]

The bodily resurrection of both the just and unjust takes place on the last day.

The 1000 years are symbolic of a period of time beginning at the start of NT church age at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and will continue until the last day of this world as we now know it. The part of this verse which gives people the most problems is the understanding of the thousand years. We read that the angel from heaven~ bound Satan for 1000 years, and some people tend to think, "since it's been more than 1000 years since Christ went to the cross, that can't be the right conclusion". They say that because they are thinking of this chapter as a strictly literal interpretation even though it is "quite obviously" replete with symbolism. Revelation chapter 20 is not speaking of literal objects or times, (this should not even be debatable) it is speaking in symbolic terms of very literal happenings and time. There is a difference! It is using symbolic words which man will recognize as representations of what is happening. i.e., the chain is not a literal chain, it represents or signifies restraint, the key is not a literal key, it represents or signifies authority and ability, power, etc. All we have to do is look at the rest of the chapter to clearly see this. This angel didn't come down from heaven with a literal key. This angel didn't come with a literal great Chain. Satan cannot be bound with a literal Chain nor locked up with a literal lock one does not need to be too smart to understand this. Satan is a spirit being. He must be restrained spiritually by God Himself. Rather than literal, this Language is representative Spiritual language to illustrate binding, and securing, and the key illustrates He has the power and authority to keep bound, or to unlock and set loose.

So if we are not talking about strictly literal things here, what would make anyone think that the 1000 years must be a literal number of years anymore than the chain to hold Satan that 1000 years was a literal chain? The answer is Nothing! Nothing except Church tradition or teachings. It's not literal years! We understand this number 1000 to be symbolic to show us that Satan is being restrained so that he cannot bring this great iniquity and deceive the nations "for the fullness of God's time." Likewise, the bottomless pit or Abyss signifies a void place of nothing, as fathomless as can be imagined, to hold a spirit. So why would we pick the 1000 years out of all these symbolic terms and say it must be taken literally or else we are in gross error? It makes no sense! The main reason that some Theologians take this tact is that they have been taught the Jewish fables that when Christ comes, He's going to free the earthly captivity, bring earthly peace, and reign literally on this earth. Believing this, they seek to discredit any view that Christ won't reign on the earth in literal (the middle east) Jerusalem.

Nevertheless, this view is contrary to all other clear passages in scripture.  When Christ returns, it will be to gather His people in the heavens to meet Him in the air (commonly called the Rapture), raise the unsaved to stand for Judgment, and to cast Satan in the lake of fire. All scripture consistently indicates this takes place at "The Last Day" and at "The Last Trumpet". There is no 1000 year reign on this present earth at the second advent of Christ. Believers reign with Christ "now" having been translated from Satan's power of darkness, into this kingdom of Christ. Either that is true, or it is a lie. There is no in between.

When we study scripture we will find that God often uses certain number of relationships to signify things. For example, the number 3 for the purpose or will of God, as in the 3 times Christ prayed, the 3 times the sheet was let down and God said kill and eat, the 3 times Paul sought the Lord that the thorn in the flesh would be removed from him, the 3 times God came seeking fruit on the fig tree, or the 3 days till the Temple was raised up, etc., etc. Likewise, the number 12 representing the congregation, as in the 12 stars, the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 Apostles, the 12 gates of the city, etc., or the number 7 and it's multiples, 70, 700, 7000 as the "Totality" of whatever is in view. And in this same way the number 10, 100, 1000 is likewise used in a spiritual sense to signifies the fullness of whatever is being spoken about. As an example, as you might say to your wife, "I'll love you for a thousand years". You're not literally putting a number on the time, rather, you're expressing the "fullness" of your Love for her. The 1000 is a symbolic length of time to indicate you'll love her from now till the fullness of time. Whatever that time may literally be, whether it be 10 years, 30 years 63 years, whatever it may be is symbolized by the use of the term a thousand years. And God uses this number in that way in scripture. Also, 666 to represent the NON-ELECT~Two third of a whole is 666~one third is a small remnant among the whole.

This angel has put God's seal on Satan that he cannot be loosed till God looses him. God is in control and Satan will be held in restraint until the fulfilling of time that God has set that the nations be not deceived. Remember in 2nd Thessalonians 2 we read that what was being restrained was the iniquity revealed in Satan and that it would be revealed in its time. God has set that time. How long O Lord? It is not given to us to know the date of Christ's return, but Satan is bound the time that it takes to build the Holy Temple, Christ being the chief cornerstone.

Symbolism:
1000 Years = fullness of time
Seal = God's Security
Bottomless Pit = a expanse, an abyss of captivity

This verse 3 of Revelation chapter 20 is illustrating that when The angel came from Heaven, He bound Satan, and cast him into a fathomless void to bind spirits that he would not be allowed to deceive the nations as he was doing at the first advent of Christ. Now is come salvation and strength, because the accuser of the nations has been cast down, and we are free from the death that hung over us as a result of his having us in bondage. God has sealed him, or literally "secured" him that he cannot be loosed upon the Church until all those who are to be sealed of the nations have been sealed (secured) in their foreheads. The Purpose is clearly that God keep him bound till the appointed time after the testimony of the saints is finished and all Israel is saved. When the Lord sets His seal upon something, you can be sure that it won't get out until "the time" the Lord alone releases him. So like everything else here, this seal is "symbolic" of something being "secured of God". No one secured or sealed of God can loose themselves. And my friends, that includes us, the believers. We are eternally secure (sealed) by God. And since it wasn't by our own good that we were secured, it cannot be by our own good we are held secured. Grace!

The question is often asked, "but why is Satan loosed a little season in the future?" It's because this loosing is a prelude to the second advent of Christ and rapture of His Church. At this set time God judges the unfaithful Church by the release of Satan. Satan marshals his army near the time of the Lord's return and comes against the Church (The camp of the saints). The Saints are overcome by Satan and his false prophets, and the Word trampled under foot, and the "true" gospel is silenced in the Holy Temple. There is a famine of hearing the Word of God, for the lawless man (man who won't obey the laws of God) is seated there refusing to accept God's authority (the scriptures) and thus ruling himself, "as if" he was his own god. The faithful who brought the truth are a torment to these people, so that at this time of falling, the unrighteous rejoice because they control the churches and their voice there is the rule. The true Witness (two witnesses) of the truth is silenced. But their rejoicing only lasts a short while, a little season, because Our Lord will come. That's what happens after the 1000 years after Satan is loosed.

I am well aware that the 1000 years being symbolical goes contrary to the thinking of a lot of people brought up in the premillennialist traditions, (which I was and also 3 Resurrections if I remember correctly) and therefore it is "very hard" for many to turn away from those teachings, but we should be interested in truth, not man's tradition. Belief based on scripture is one thing, but indoctrination based on our teachers theories is another. If someone shows me (by Scripture) where I hold a wrong interpretation, I'd like to think that I will still check those verses and gladly change my doctrine, giving thanks to the Lord for his giving me the eyes to see. Never will I blindly hold onto doctrine simply because it is what I have been taught. For one simple reason. I understand that The Holy Spirit is the teacher and I am simply the vessel. I must obey God rather than men. Be true to God rather than be true to my ideas, or my teacher's ideas. Faithfulness, is to God, not theologians. Whosoever is our authority, that is who we serve. Likewise, I would hope that all Christians take that very same philosophy in their study of scripture.

I agree the Last Day is literal and the 1000 years represent something. I believe the Last Day was the last day Jesus was in the heart of the earth and the "thousand" years denotes the earthly life of believers, just like the cattle on a "thousand" hills denotes God's people.

We don't have to guess at the meaning of a "thousand years" because the bible tells us EXACTLY what it is. The bible will always interpret the bible.

2Pe_3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

According to Peter, one day in the believers life IS AS or equal to a thousand years. For whatever reason, probably because it doesn't fit their doctrine, most people will completely blow that off and relegate it to a meaningless verse about a "long period of time".

[Rella]

I agree the Last Day is literal and the 1000 years represent something. I believe the Last Day was the last day Jesus was in the heart of the earth and the "thousand" years denotes the earthly life of believers,

Oh, brother

just like the cattle on a "thousand" hills denotes God's people.

We don't have to guess at the meaning of a "thousand years" because the bible tells us EXACTLY what it is. The bible will always interpret the bible.

BUT man will not always interpret their personal choice of translations properly.

2Pe_3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

According to Peter, one day in the believers life IS AS or equal to a thousand years. For whatever reason, probably because it doesn't fit their doctrine, most people will completely blow that off and relegate it to a meaningless verse about a "long period of time".

Peter is simply reminding us that  God is working on a different timetable.

Are you a dad Rob? How many times have your kid(s) asked, when enroute to somewhere... "When will we get there?" and you have said "Soon". You are aware that soon to a kid means within 5 minutes or so and to an adult it can be much longer.

This 1000 years is an example of how God views time. It is an example of the vast differences between eternal living and those who are given a limited number of years. It was God who set time into motion for those on earth when he created
the system. There is no reason to believe that the statement thate with God 1000 years is a day means anynore then what it says.

God's time in heaven IS NOT the same as what he created for us....

NOTE: It says
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Nothing more, nothing less

[Rob]

Are you a dad Rob? How many times have your kid(s) asked, when enroute to somewhere... "When will we get there?" and you have said "Soon". You are aware that soon to a kid means within 5 minutes or so and to an adult it can be much longer.

This 1000 years is an example of how God views time. It is an example of the vast differences between eternal living and those who are given a limited number of years. It was God who set time into motion for those on earth when he created
the system. There is no reason to believe that the statement thate with God 1000 years is a day means anynore then what it says.

God's time in heaven IS NOT the same as what he created for us....

NOTE: It says
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Nothing more, nothing less

It means exactly what it says "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years". So whenever we encounter "a thousand years" in our reading the only leeway we have is to determine if it's literally 1000 years or is it one day. What we CAN NOT do is replace the words with our own words.

[Amo]

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The book of Revelation was written for the church of Christ, admitted to have been written no earlier than 70 AD by almost all, and probably no earlier than 90 AD by many. In any case quite some time after our Lord and Saviors life, death, resurrection, and ascension. Placing the thousand years of Rev 20 symbolically as the entire new covenant era, causes problems, concerning its testimony regarding the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan. Both of the following quoted verses cannot be true at the same time for new covenant Humanity. The Devil cannot be bound for this entire time and unable to deceive the nations as some suggest, and also deceive the entire world during the same time frame.

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.


Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The Devil cannot be both bound that he should deceive the nations no more, and deceiving the whole world while persecuting the church of Christ at the same time. The thousand years is not the new covenant era established by our Savior.

[Amo]

Rev. 20&21 The thousand years and the new Jerusalem

Rev 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


We will now examine the thousand year period of Rev. 20. A correct understanding of this time period is very important. Verses one through three, are referring of course to the leader of the lost, Satan himself. During this thousand year period, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. We will discuss just what the bottomless pit is after we finish with the thousand year period. Not only is Satan bound during this thousand years, but he is not able to deceive the nations anymore during this same time. The scriptures themselves will tell us why this is so.

Verse four, switches the topic to that of the saved during this same thousand years. It states that the judgment was given unto them. The saints then, are involved in the work of judgment during this thousand year period. Paul makes reference to this event in 1 Corinthians.

I Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

I Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Of course this judgment cannot be about who will, or will not have eternal life. This question has already been answered, since the saved are in heaven with Christ judging the world. This is why the saints are caught up in the air to meet Christ when He returns, and will ever be with Him (1Th 4:14-18). During this thousand years, the saints are in heaven with Christ who has taken them there. Later, the wicked will surround the beloved city, or New Jerusalem, apparently after it descends from heaven down to earth (Rev. 21:1-5), at the end of the thousand years.

The judgment that the saints are involved in is apparently for the purpose of understanding why or why not, certain people are or are not in heaven with the saved. No doubt God will answer all the questions of the saints during these thousand years. Surely there will be questions from the saints regarding who is, and who is not there. In the end though, every knee will bow and confess that Christ is the righteous judge of all (Rom. 14:10&11).

Verse five points out that the rest of the dead, that is those who were not saved, did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Then it says that this is the first resurrection.  That is not to say that the rest of the dead not living again for a thousand years is the first resurrection, for this would make no sense at all. Rather, that those who were involved in judging the world during this thousand years were part of the first resurrection, that is, the resurrection of the saved.

Verse six says that those who are saved and take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy. It also points out that the second death will have no power over them. For them, death has been swallowed up in victory, in and through their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. They shall be priests of God and reign with Him during this thousand year period.

Verses seven through fifteen point out what will happen to the wicked at the end of this thousand year period. This begins with Satan being let loose again to deceive the nations. In order for this to take place, the lost who have been dead during this thousand year period (verse 5), must be resurrected. Thus having died once either naturally before Christ's coming or at Christ's coming (Luke 17:28-30, 2 Th. 2:8, Rev. 6:14-17), they will die again at the second death, when they come up on the beloved city with their leader Satan. That both the saved and the wicked will be resurrected, was pointed out by Christ Himself when here on earth.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The resurrection of life is at the beginning of the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is at the end of the thousand years.

The wicked surround the beloved city, and fire comes down from God and devours them (verse 9). This is the lake of fire, where the Devil, the Beast, and the False prophet are. It is where all those whose names are not written in the book of life will end up, and die the second death (verses 13-15). The book of life, from which all these people were judged, must be the book that the saints were examining during this thousand year period. This would be the judgment that they were involved in (verses 11&12).

Now to the definition of the bottomless pit into which Satan was cast. The definition of which, will reveal that the lost are dead during this thousand year period. Let us look at some scriptures to see what a bottomless pit might represent.

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. 14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. 15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? 16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Psalm 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Proverbs 1:11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: 12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

Isaiah 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Jeremiah 41:7 And it was so, when they came into the midst of the city, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah slew them, and cast them into the midst of the pit, he, and the men that were with him.

9 Now the pit wherein Ishmael had cast all the dead bodies of the men, whom he had slain because of Gedaliah, was it which Asa the king had made for fear of Baasha king of Israel: and Ishmael the son of Nethaniah filled it with them that were slain.

In the bible, a pit is very often associated with the grave, or a place to put the dead. A bottomless pit then, would undoubtedly represent an enormous grave, filled with countless people. If the bible tells us that all the lost will be slain when Christ returns the second time, which it does, then this world would be one massive grave. The dead bodies of countless millions strewn all over it. This is in fact where Satan is bound for this thousand years, while the saved are in heaven going over the book of life, he is here with nothing but the dead.  Thus Satan can no longer deceive the nations during this thousand years, for there are no nations or peoples to deceive. Jeremiah speaks of the world in this condition.

Jer 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. 31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. 32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Jer 4: 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Isaiah not only spoke of this condition of the earth, but prophesied of the very things we are discussing.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Though all the kings and people will be slain, yet Satan will not join them in burial. Though he be in the pit with them, the bottomless pit, yet he will not be given the rest of the sleep of the dead. He will live for a thousand years alone with no one to deceive, and nothing to do but ponder the effects of the works of his own hands. Ever looking forward to the judgment, and his destruction at the end of the thousand years.

Isaiah 24:18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Here again, Isaiah is referring to the destruction of the earth, and the death of the wicked. When the wicked are gathered together in the pit, that is dead, and shut up in death as in prison (Job3:11-18, Isa. 53:8), then they will be visited after many days. That many days is the thousand years that we are discussing, and it will not be well for them when they are visited.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I want to be in that city, don't you?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

"The Last Day" appears only in the book of John, where it is applied ONLY to the resurrection of the saints; not of the wicked dead.

How do you figure the resurrection of the wicked dead to be on that day?

Jarrod

[4WD]

"The Last Day" appears only in the book of John, where it is applied ONLY to the resurrection of the saints; not of the wicked dead.

How do you figure the resurrection of the wicked dead to be on that day?

Jarrod

John 12:48  The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

John 12:48  The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

There's no resurrection in that passage.  Jesus is speaking to a very-much-alive crowd of Jews.

[4WD]

There's no resurrection in that passage.  Jesus is speaking to a very-much-alive crowd of Jews.

And will those very-much-alive crowd of Jews still be alive on that last day when they are judged or will they be of the resurrection?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

And will those very-much-alive crowd of Jews still be alive on that last day when they are judged or will they be of the resurrection?

You are assuming that event is in the future still.  That generation was indeed judged, already.  And yes, they were alive for it.

[4WD]

So there is a different last day for each and every person? I am not sure I get your point.  It seems to me that the entire passage of John 12:44-50 relates to the "day of judgment" at the resurrection on Jesus' return.  But perhaps that is just me.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

So there is a different last day for each and every person? I am not sure I get your point.  It seems to me that the entire passage of John 12:44-50 relates to the "day of judgment" at the resurrection on Jesus' return.  But perhaps that is just me.

There was a Last Day for Judah, and they were there for it.

[Choir Loft]

The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?

Your question cannot be adequately answered without having to filter out a lot of false doctrine and gibberish that has infected Christian doctrine since Revelation was written.

Does the reader possess an adequate filter to separate out the nonsense or does the reader simply believe everything that's written? 

Bear in mind the devil and its minions uses scripture constantly to falsify its purposes in human minds.  Even Jesus was tempted by the devil's use of scripture.  Posts here will inevitably quote scripture used as religious slogans or buzz words.  Others will cite TV preachers and internet celebrities.  Paul wrote we ought not follow teachers as though they were rock star religious celebrities, yet many Christians today do exactly that.  (1 Corinthians 3:4)

Many falsely claim they are led of the spirit to determine truth from falsehood.  As bad as it may be to follow celebrities this is worse.  Do you not know that we are advised to TEST the spirits?  (1 John 4:1)  What filter do we employ for this testing?   How about using the Bible?   God's Word is self-interpreting, which means it doesn't take a rocket scientist to decipher its meaning.  It does, however, require diligent study.  (2 Tim 2:15) That sort of study means the entire Bible, not just the letters of Paul or the gospel of John.  Many have been led of a false spirit into doctrines of demons - believing they were doing God a service.  (John 16:2)

History teaches as well as any college professor.  For instance, the one thousand year period spoken of in the New Testament is often referred to as the Millennium.  Historically our church leaders have argued about it for nearly two thousand years.  Does Jesus return at the beginning of the Millennium at the end of the Millennium or is there no real thousand year period at all? 

Amillenialism teaches there's no real return of Christ to earth.  It's all symbolism and not to be expected in actuality. 
PreMillenialism teaches the reentry of Christ into the world at the beginning of a thousand year reign of terror over the nations.  (Rev 19:15)
Post Millenialism teaches the return of Jesus AFTER a thousand year reign of Christian ethics on the planet. 

Following the end of WWI most theologians abandoned the post-millennial idea.  It had become apparent the entire world would never be evangelized into church membership.  Human nature proved itself to be so self-destructive that the hope of the gospel as a religious benchmark was deemed an impossibility. 

As a consequence the church of the twenty-first century is left with two points of view; Amillenialism and PreMillenialism. 

The addition of the heretical doctrine of the rapture only confuses the debate.  According to Biblically illiterate American Protestants the rapture will further subDivide the millennial period into three or four sections.  The dogma is so confused that many believe Jesus will return to earth two, three or four times before matters are settled. 

All of this is purely academic as the church is presently withering on the vine and will be nearly extinct by the year 2050 - assuming statistics provide an accurate projection of trends. (*)  According to scripture Jesus doesn't return to earth to save the church anyway.  (John 19:14) The King of the Jews returns to earth to save ISRAEL. (John 11:51)

All our heated discussions about the millennium are pointless since there is no accurate and reliable method to filter out all the garbage that's being tossed about as interpretations.   Everybody thinks they're a prophet with the result that nobody knows what they're talking about.

Until and unless a filter is used to sort out the mess of doctrines that are flying about, the bulk of Christians will have to make do with Jesus' advice.

Be ready.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) According to PEW and Gallup national surveys, regular church attendance measured as once per month declined in 2010 to 50% of 1948 levels.  Projections of that rate of decline suggest regular attendance will shrivel to 10% by the year 2050.

[4WD]

Amillenialism teaches there's no real return of Christ to earth.  It's all symbolism and not to be expected in actuality. 

Once again you demonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about. The truth is that amillennialism treats the number 1000 as symbolic as are most other numbers in Revelation; amillennialism posits that the 1000 years consists of the time between the First and Second comings of Christ. Therefore, we are even now living in the millennium.  There are some amillennialists who present the beginning of the millennium with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and some who present the beginning with the events at Pentecost.  Both of those seem to me to be moot points.

[RB]

Choir Loft, I've been looking for you.   I made this thread for you to post on, so we can discuss this subject. 

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/how-can-a-man-be-saved-for-sin-and-condemnation/

[RB]

Amillenialism teaches there's no real return of Christ to earth.  It's all symbolism and not to be expected in actuality.

4WD hit the nail on the head when he said:

Once again you demonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about. The truth is that amillennialism treats the number 1000 as symbolic as are most other numbers in Revelation; amillennialism posits that the 1000 years consists of the time between the First and Second comings of Christ. Therefore, we are even now living in the millennium.  There are some amillennialists who present the beginning of the millennium with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and some who present the beginning with the events at Pentecost.  Both of those seem to me to be moot points.

I will add this: Amillennialism is broken down into three or even four different groups among them~the preterist among them teach there is no real return of Christ to earth, but they make up a very small group of Amillennialism.

The Historical amillennialist group to teach a personal coming of Christ to this earth~but they are half baked preterist.

The Idealist amillennialist like myself clearly teaches a visibly second coming of Jesus Christ to gather together his elect from the four winds of heaven.

There's another form of amillennialist on this forum~ 3 Resurrections he can speak for himself if he so desires to do so.

According to scripture Jesus doesn't return to earth to save the church anyway.  (John 19:14) The King of the Jews returns to earth to save ISRAEL. (John 11:51)

No sir, that's according to your private intrepretation.

Jesus Christ comes back to deliver HIS CHURCH from the destruction of the antichrist spirit of the last days that is even now present in this world gaining momentum at a very fast pace.

Revelation 20:9~"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The only beloved city is the new Jerusalem made up of people from every nation under heaven.

There are no promises to natural Israel after the flesh, only to Israel after the Spirit of God. Of course, this has always been the case even in the OT. 

[Choir Loft]

Once again you demonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about. The truth is that amillennialism treats the number 1000 as symbolic as are most other numbers in Revelation; amillennialism posits that the 1000 years consists of the time between the First and Second comings of Christ. Therefore, we are even now living in the millennium.  There are some amillennialists who present the beginning of the millennium with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and some who present the beginning with the events at Pentecost.  Both of those seem to me to be moot points.

You really don't need to begin your post with an insult.  I DO know what I wrote about. 

My purpose was to define the characteristics of the argument, not to justify one point or another.  If you were half as clever as you think you are you'd have picked up on that. 

My POINT was to seek and define a FILTER to all the garbage doctrine that's collected over the last two thousand years.  Such a filter would begin with definitions of terms.  People cannot decide what is true or not until and unless they know the meaning of the words they use.   Salvation, for example, means totally different things to people of different denominations and disciplines.  It's all about words and their meaning.

Returning to your definition of amillennialism;  the BASIC definition of the term describes nothing based upon reality.  It's entirely irrelevant to the real world.  According to this term there will be no earthly reign of the King of Kings and no political system to back it up. I personally disagree with this dogma, but cannot bury it in the sand as if it didn't exist.   

There are aberrations to almost any philosophical construction invented by the mind of man.  The millennium is one of them.  There is so much trash incorporated into the notion that one can barely recognize truth in any of it.  The only people who profit by it are those who write books and sponsor videos on the internet.  They collect shovels full of loot from gullible people who buy their fantasies.  It can be truly said that these persons have one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket.  Meanwhile a lot of people go astray - being greatly concerned about matters that are completely unimportant.  The millennium is one of them.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[4WD]

Choir Loft, I only pointed out that you, in your attempt to teach the rest of us, were wrong.  You made an explicit statement that was incorrect.  You made that incorrect statement either because you were malicious, or you simply did not know the truth.  I do not think you are malicious.

You really don't need to begin your post with an insult.  I DO know what I wrote about. 

So you know what you wrote about was wrong?  Interesting.

My purpose was to define the characteristics of the argument, not to justify one point or another.  If you were half as clever as you think you are you'd have picked up on that.

Why would you use an inaccuracy to define the characteristics of the argument? That doesn't seem very clever at all.

All our heated discussions about the millennium are pointless since there is no accurate and reliable method to filter out all the garbage that's being tossed about as interpretations.   Everybody thinks they're a prophet with the result that nobody knows what they're talking about.

What a strange thing to say about God's word.  If you truly believe that I wonder how you support anything that you believe.

[Choir Loft]

. . .

Jesus Christ comes back to deliver HIS CHURCH from the destruction of the antichrist spirit of the last days that is even now present in this world gaining momentum at a very fast pace. The only beloved city is the new Jerusalem made up of people from every nation under heaven.

There are no promises to natural Israel after the flesh, only to Israel after the Spirit of God. Of course, this has always been the case even in the OT. 

You are eager to call me a liar, but provide nothing of substance to back up your opinion.

I quoted scripture to PROVE that Jesus, the King of the Jews, died for the nation of Israel.  He didn't die for the church.  The Bible does not allude to the church in this regard at all.  In point of fact, when a man or woman surrenders to the Lordship of Christ he or she BECOMES A JEW.  (Romans 2:29)

Your Christian anti-semitism is showing and it's an ugly thing to behold.

The doctrine of Supersessionism or Replacement Theology was born of the Vatican and predicted by both Daniel and Christ.   God has NEVER abandoned His people Israel.  I can provide numerous scripture references as well as historic accuracy to back this up, but I doubt you or anyone else would appreciate it.  Nobody really cares about the Bible except to use snippets of it to justify their hatred of Jews and the State of Israel (which is a reality whether you like it or not).

Thank God for His Torah and God Bless Israel who He has loved. (Genesis 12:3)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

What a strange thing to say about God's word.  If you truly believe that I wonder how you support anything that you believe.

The millennium is an extraneous point of Biblical reference.  It does NOT apply to salvation. It does NOT encourage spiritual responsibility.  It does NOTHING to add to the normal Christian life.

What it does do is reinforce Roman Catholic dogma nearly six hundred years old and that is something I cannot subscribe to.

Biblical illiteracy notwithstanding, most Christians follow in lock step with Vatican dogma as per the warnings of Daniel and Jesus Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[4WD]

The millennium is an extraneous point of Biblical reference.  It does NOT apply to salvation. It does NOT encourage spiritual responsibility.  It does NOTHING to add to the normal Christian life.

What it does do is reinforce Roman Catholic dogma nearly six hundred years old and that is something I cannot subscribe to.

Biblical illiteracy notwithstanding, most Christians follow in lock step with Vatican dogma as per the warnings of Daniel and Jesus Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Maybe you should just quit hollering from the choir loft and treat the whole of God's word with the importance it rightly deserves.  That you would claim that what God said about something, about anything actually, is "an extraneous point of biblical reference" is truly bazaar.

[RB]

You are eager to call me a liar, but provide nothing of substance to back up your opinion.

Your words, not mine~I have no desire to call any man a liar, a man's doctrine will speak for itself whether or not he is a liar, or if he/she speaks the truth.

I quoted scripture to PROVE that Jesus, the King of the Jews, died for the nation of Israel.  He didn't die for the church.  The Bible does not allude to the church in this regard at all.

God's word which is the truth said otherwise.

Acts 20:28~"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

One of your own prophets said otherwise:

John 11:49-52~"And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Jesus died for the CHURCH made up of Jews and Gentiles.

So, I with Caiaphas say to you as he did to the Jews......

Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider..........

There are so many more that can be given.

Your Christian anti-semitism is showing and it's an ugly thing to behold

No, my Christian faith understands we are indebted to the faithful Jews of the past, beginning with our father Abraham~ we just refuse to give our promises (the elect Jews and Gentiles) to a nation that rejects Jesus Christ and the New Covenant sealed with the blood of our Saviour.

Thank God for His Torah and God Bless Israel who He has loved. (Genesis 12:3)

The law IS good, holy, and spiritual so much so, no man could ever live in perfect obedience to the Law, EXCEPT one, Jesus Christ who we trust in as a perfect surety for God's people.  HE IS the righteousness of God provided for God's elect, revealed in the gospel.

The Israel that God loves is seen here:

Galatians 6:16~"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God are the children of God's promises beginning with Genesis 12 and explain to us by Paul in Romans 9.

Romans 9:1-8~"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So, it is men like you that are truly guilty of the doctrine of Supersessionism or Replacement Theology~by trying to replace the elect Jews and Gentiles with unbelieving Jews who reject the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ! Since Christ, for the most part, Gentiles have followed Christ and proclaimed him to the world.

I would not deny that the Gentiles like the Jews of old have apostate from the truth as a whole, which puts us very close to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Choir Loft]

Previously posted -----

it is men like you that are truly guilty of the doctrine of Supersessionism or Replacement Theology~by trying to replace the elect Jews and Gentiles with unbelieving Jews who reject the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ!

* * * *

Your statement is laughable in its ignorance.  Hateful in its anti-Semitic arrogance.  Would you PLEASE refer to a dictionary when you throw around multi-syllable words and the convoluted meanings you mistakenly represent.   PLEASE STUDY - SOMETHING.  This is a perfect example of the theme of my accusations of post-protestant churches today.  They know not of which they speak and write.  Not for nothing do statistics tell us that American Christians know LESS of their own religion than anyone else.  They are only fooling themselves with their religious slogans, buzz words, and repititions of nonsensical rubbish.  They are fooling themselves because they know not of what they speak or write.

Definitions of words are critical for understanding. 

Replacement Theology or Supersessionism refers to the false notion that the church has replaced Israel as God's elect.   In truth it's not the other way around as anti-Semitic Christians assert.  Hating Jews doesn't make a dogma truth.  It only proves demonic sources.  The Bible promises that God will NEVER abandon His people Israel.  Even the most cursory review of the old testament (Tanakh) will reveal that promise.  Please please please familiarize yourself with words and their definitions.  If you were a student in my class I'd give you an F for stubborn refusal to learn the simplest of lessons.  LOOK UP THE WORD.  PLEASE.  WE CANNOT HAVE ANYTHING APPROACHING AN INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION UNLESS WORD DEFINITIONS ARE AGREED UPON.  Do some homework.  Stop making things up to justify hatred of Jews, Jewish LAW and the old testament in general.

As we explore the roots of the doctrine we discover (provided we are so motivated to actually LEARN something) Replacement Theology was invented by the Roman Catholic church.   In fact MOST of what post protestant churches believe to be true - isn't.  Most of it is a demonic representation of the Vatican to oppose the protestant reformation.  It even goes so far as walking in the church front door on Sunday morning.  Violation of the 4th commandment is still a SIN.

Remember the Sabbath Day (Shabbat) to keep it holy. - Exodus 20:8  <---- This is God's Word, God's commandment.  The sabbath day is Saturday, not Sunday.

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50   <--- doctrine of demons sponsored by the RCC

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. - Daniel 7:25  Prediction that the anti-Christ system will attempt to usurp God's Holy LAW.

Reformation fathers such as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Tyndale and all the rest OPPOSED Replacement Theology as asserted by the RCC. THEY KNEW as post protestant ignorant churches DO NOT, that Israel was and is the oracle of God CHOSEN from the foundation of the world to bless the nations with God's LAW and the salvation it points to.   Those who become Christians become Jews in God's eyes.  They are adopted into the family of people God has blessed with His love and affection.   They do NOT join a church !!!!!

Returning once again to the 1,000 years mentioned in the Bible, a strict interpretation reveals that NOTHING will exist on the surface of the earth during that period.  Arguments suggesting some sort of global religious government at that time are supurious manifestations of fantasy.

The level of hatred toward Jews and the State of Israel is becoming more intense daily.  Attacks against synagogues by Christian zealots are increasing in number all over the world.  The theology of the tribulation has been highjacked by post protestant church folk to glorify a SECOND HOLOCAUST OF MURDER UPON JEWS.  Are you proud of this attitude?  I for one am horrified that any civilized person, much less one that calls themselves by the name of the Son of God should embrace murder as a method to advance the gospel.  No one in his right mind would give an ounce of allegiance to such an inhuman ideology and to people who suggest the advance of their religious doctrine is justified by murder of innocent Jews.  Instead of shame and revulsion a lot of church people smile and act as though they were doing God a favor.

This attitude is disgusting in the extreme.

The proper answer and solution to such a filthy ideology is to follow Timothy's advice - to STUDY to show one's self approved.   To date the church is shriveling in regular attendance because thinking people, people with conscience, judge the present church doctrines as filth and rubbish worthy of rejection.   Don't blame me for this.  Consult the numbers.

According to PEW and Gallup statistical polls regular once a month attendance in American churches fell in 2010 to 50% of 1948 levels.  By the year 2050 the projected trend will result in 10% attendance.   Is this MY FAULT?  It is not.  Is this GOD'S FAULT?  It is not.   Is this the fault of Biblically illiterate ignorant people who profess faith in Christ, but deny His Lordship and His Kingship over His Own People?  Yes, it certainly is. 

Let us begin again with a clean pure assessment of what it is we find in God's Holy Word - beginning with the LAW of the old testament, for that is where the Lord of Hosts led His people after delivering them from bondage.  It is the LAW that points to clean living with each other, the LAW that points to Christ and the LAW that defines how we ought to live to please God WHO GAVE IT TO THE WORLD.  Let us cease worshipping lawLESSness in our churches and embrace REPENTANCE. 

The purpose of the LAW is to convince us we need to REPENT of our SINS and wickedness, one of which is to lose false doctrines such as those of the millennium.   

Will Christ return to a world riddled with SIN and a church convinced of its own righteousness or will He return to a people gathered unto Him and called by His Name - ISRAEL.

"I will bless those who bless you (Israel) and curse those who curse you. In you (Israel) all the families of the earth will be blessed." - God as quoted in Genesis 12:3

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[3 Resurrections]

Back to the original question of the post...

It is not a question of the millennium and the last day being EITHER symbolic or NOT being symbolic.  As many other texts in scripture...it is BOTH symbolic AND literal at the same time.  Just as the literal number of 12 apostles became the symbolic foundation of the New Jerusalem, which is also composed of literal, living bodies of believers, and is also symbolic of the holy city of God's presence among mankind.

The literal time period of a thousand years for the millennium is quite simple to pin down when we compare Revelation with itself.  According to Revelation 20:3 and 7, we know that Satan was supposed to be loosed on earth from his restricting chain FOR ONLY A "LITTLE SEASON" when the millennium period had "expired" or was "finished".  This is a specific point on the calendar when the millennium came to an end - not a vague, indeterminate state of things in this world with no precise ending or beginning.

Compare this loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:3 and 7 to what John wrote elsewhere about Satan's loosing on earth.  He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long.  If John said that Satan was ALREADY loosed into the world for that same "SHORT TIME", (the "LITTLE SEASON" at the millennium's end), then this tells us that the millennium was already over and done with by the time John was writing Revelation. 

The millennium came to an end when Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels in Revelation 12.  This was accomplished when Christ ascended to heaven on the morning after His resurrection.  Because all the legal requirements for the saints' justification had been met by Christ's actions on our behalf, the "accuser of the brethren" didn't have a leg to stand on in heaven's court anymore.  After that point, Satan and his angels were banned from heaven's realm for all time; cast down to earth for Satan's last, desperate attempt to persecute the saints during his "short time" of being loosed on earth.  This "short time" or "little season" lasted from the year AD 33 until AD 66 when he and his angels finally became imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem, as Isaiah 24:21-23 had foretold.  God used that location of the city of Jerusalem for the destruction of Satan and his angels, along with every unclean spirit passing out of the land at that point, as Zechariah 13:2 had foretold would happen along with the destruction of AD 70 besieged Jerusalem.   

The symbolism behind this very literal thousand-years millennium was the entire period of a physical temple worship system in Israel, which began ever since Solomon had laid the foundation stone of the Temple back in 968/967 BC.  It served its purpose for the time being, and helped to bring the knowledge of the God of Israel into repute among the nations, thus limiting Satan's deception.  But once Christ at His resurrection became the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple NOT made with hands, the period of this physical temple worship system had truly "finished" and "expired".   

[Rella]

Back to the original question of the post...

It is not a question of the millennium and the last day being EITHER symbolic or NOT being symbolic.  As many other texts in scripture...it is BOTH symbolic AND literal at the same time.  Just as the literal number of 12 apostles became the symbolic foundation of the New Jerusalem, which is also composed of literal, living bodies of believers, and is also symbolic of the holy city of God's presence among mankind.

The literal time period of a thousand years for the millennium is quite simple to pin down when we compare Revelation with itself.  According to Revelation 20:3 and 7, we know that Satan was supposed to be loosed on earth from his restricting chain FOR ONLY A "LITTLE SEASON" when the millennium period had "expired" or was "finished".  This is a specific point on the calendar when the millennium came to an end - not a vague, indeterminate state of things in this world with no precise ending or beginning.

Compare this loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:3 and 7 to what John wrote elsewhere about Satan's loosing on earth.  He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long.  If John said that Satan was ALREADY loosed into the world for that same "SHORT TIME", (the "LITTLE SEASON" at the millennium's end), then this tells us that the millennium was already over and done with by the time John was writing Revelation. 

The millennium came to an end when Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels in Revelation 12.  This was accomplished when Christ ascended to heaven on the morning after His resurrection.  Because all the legal requirements for the saints' justification had been met by Christ's actions on our behalf, the "accuser of the brethren" didn't have a leg to stand on in heaven's court anymore.  After that point, Satan and his angels were banned from heaven's realm for all time; cast down to earth for Satan's last, desperate attempt to persecute the saints during his "short time" of being loosed on earth.  This "short time" or "little season" lasted from the year AD 33 until AD 66 when he and his angels finally became imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem, as Isaiah 24:21-23 had foretold.  God used that location of the city of Jerusalem for the destruction of Satan and his angels, along with every unclean spirit passing out of the land at that point, as Zechariah 13:2 had foretold would happen along with the destruction of AD 70 besieged Jerusalem.   

The symbolism behind this very literal thousand-years millennium was the entire period of a physical temple worship system in Israel, which began ever since Solomon had laid the foundation stone of the Temple back in 968/967 BC.  It served its purpose for the time being, and helped to bring the knowledge of the God of Israel into repute among the nations, thus limiting Satan's deception.  But once Christ at His resurrection became the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple NOT made with hands, the period of this physical temple worship system had truly "finished" and "expired".

[3 Resurrections]

Rella, head slapping is not exactly a coherent response that can offer evidence against the scripture texts I supplied.  If you disagree, then you should be able to use your very well-honed verbal skills to refute what I've said.  Not that you are required to do this, but it doesn't validate your views to offer nothing substantive from scripture to contradict what I've said.  Got anything better to provide?

[Rella]

Rella, head slapping is not exactly a coherent response that can offer evidence against the scripture texts I supplied.  If you disagree, then you should be able to use your very well-honed verbal skills to refute what I've said.  Not that you are required to do this, but it doesn't validate your views to offer nothing substantive from scripture to contradict what I've said.  Got anything better to provide? ( Ummm, Yes )

Hi 3Rs,

Happy New Year,

Not a great deal of time at the moment but as usual you  place a lot into you replies and I just wanted to let you know that you have been read and as usual I do not agree .

Let me start with your

"  He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long"

There is that pesky "short time" thing again.

The actual quote ( from one translation) is Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

If you would read the entire chapter you would see it was not voluntary that Satan came down to earth

We are told about the war Michael had with "the dragon" who was the one whose tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and who  stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

It does not take the IQ of a rocket scientist to conclude this dragon was none other then Satan himself as is absolutely confirmed in vs  9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So Satan was cast out of heaven. He did not leave voluntarily.

And as this is during the exaggerated telling of Satan wanting to  devour the woman's child when born, as she was in labor, it is not a stretch to believe that is casting out from heaven of Satan was at a point before Jesus was born on earth.

I do not for one minute believe that the millennium ended when Satan was cast to earth.

But that needs to wait for more time at the moment.

Suffice it to say that we are told at the end of the millennium Satan will be loosed for a time.

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8:and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

If the millennium ended when Satan was cast to earth, where was he bound when he was still in heaven in Rev 12.

Spinning scriptures to make them fit your beliefs does not work.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Rella,

And a Happy New Year to you and yours.  Hope you are staying safe...and thank you for reading and digesting...

I did not write in my comment that it was a voluntary decision for Satan to be cast out of heaven down to earth for a "short time".  Of course, it wasn't a voluntary action in John's statement that Satan had come down unto the earth in great wrath for a "short time".   Satan was "cast down to earth", and "had come down" to the earth... neither of these was a voluntary choice for Satan.  Satan's own wrathful response tells us that this was not a voluntary decision of his to be limited only to the earth's domain after he was cast out of heaven. 

But you are missing my point altogether.  If John said that Satan had already been loosed on earth for a "short time" in great wrath, then that means without a doubt that the millennium was already over and done by the time Revelation was being written.  Because the millennium was supposed to be "finished" at the time Satan was loosed on earth for a "little season".   This is merely comparing Revelation by itself to make this deduction. 

The Revelation 20:5 text tells us also that the thousand years would culminate with the remnant of the dead living again as being the first resurrection event.  If you don't recognize that Christ rising from the dead as the "First-fruits" along with the Matthew 27:52-53 saints is the "First resurrection" event, then we have reached a communication impasse.  The "First-fruits" WAS the "First Resurrection" event, which gives Christ the preeminence.  This means the literal millennium finished on Christ's resurrection day.  If you can't recognize this, well, you just can't, that's all.  It's not a salvific issue. 

And Satan and his angels were not cast out of heaven before Jesus was born.  He was cast out of heaven when the male child was caught up to God and to His throne.  That was Christ's ascension on His resurrection day. 

You ask "WHERE" Satan was bound during the time that he had access to heaven.  You are mistaking the bottomless pit for a physical location.  It isn't.  It is a status, or a condition.  Just as Romans 10:7 tells us that Christ was also in the "abyss" for three days and nights, meaning His physical body was lying inert in the grave for that time.  The "bottomless pit" or the "abyss" (abusson) is an expression that describes a non-functioning condition.  It isn't a place per se.  Satan was in a chained, restricted condition for those literal thousand years that did not allow him to deceive the nations as he had freely been able to do before then.   God had "bound" the "strong man" at the beginning of the millennium back in 968 / 967 BC, and Christ and His disciples took advantage of his already-bound condition to "spoil his goods" by casting out devils during His earthly ministry. 

This chained-up, sealed condition on Satan's deception of the nations was released at Christ's ascension that resurrection day.  This is why (just as Joel 2:28-29 prophesied) God poured out His Spirit on all flesh in those days, both men and women of all ages and classes of society.  This helped to equip the believers in dealing with this ramped up level of Satanic wrathful oppression when he was loosed on the world for that "short time" and "little season", just before his destruction. 

[4WD]

You describe the abyss or the bottomless pit as a condition, not a place. But you continue to think of heaven, not as a condition, but rather as a place.

And the "first resurrection" is the resurrection of the spirit as described in John 5:24-25: Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment; but has passed from death to life.  Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

The dead there is the spiritually dead.  That is contrasted with the those in John 5:28-29 who are physically dead and in their graves:  Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

The first resurrection is regeneration, being born again. The second resurrection is that at the end of the age.

[Choir Loft]

Maybe you should just quit hollering from the choir loft and treat the whole of God's word with the importance it rightly deserves.  That you would claim that what God said about something, about anything actually, is "an extraneous point of biblical reference" is truly bazaar.

You missed my point completely.   It isn't about the Bible at all.   

It IS about the interpretations assigned to certain phrases pulled out of context and given importance its doesn't deserve and which God did not intend.  THAT is the point of millennial dissension.   Do you not see it?  Multiple interpretations of the dogma serve evidence that there isn't a central idea being promoted AND that those who argue about it care less about God's Word than they do about their pet ideology.

Thus the discussion is extraneous to Biblical context as a whole.

or do you just want to argue about it and claim you are perfect in your understanding.......

??

that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[4WD]

No I didn't miss your point at all.  The simple fact is that virtually everything in the Bible can be fit into your "interpretations assigned to certain phrases pulled out of context and given importance its doesn't deserve and which God did not intend". 

[Choir Loft]

I would not deny that the Gentiles like the Jews of old have apostate from the truth as a whole, which puts us very close to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since you admit Gentiles are apostate in their interpretation of God's Word, why do you deny what it says about God's people and Gentiles?

At issue here is protestant theology.  It's in lock step with Vatican doctrine established five hundred years ago.  That particular doctrine despises and rejects anything Jewish INCLUDING Biblical statements that;

1. Jesus died for the nation, not individuals. (John 11:51)
2. Jesus is King of the Jews.(John 19:21 & Mark 15:26)
3. He who accepts the King of the Jews as His Lord and Savior becomes part of Jesus' kingdom - becomes a Jew.  (Romans 2:29)
4. He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW.  (Romans 2:12)
5. I did not come to abolish the LAW.  I came to fulfill it.  Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17
6. The Lord will not forsake His people Israel.  (Psalm 94:14).

As RB has so generously conceded, the church is ICHABOD (1 Sam 4:21).  The Holy Spirit has departed from it because of its wickedness and approval of overt SIN.

1. Humanism has crept into every worship service in the land.  It is the human and the culture that is worshipped, not God.  Bible references are unjustly used to promote the attitude.

2. It has been readily acknowledged by everyone that Jesus is King of the Jews, but the Roman church has succeeded where Jews did not.  They've taken Christ's title and authority for their own.  The RCC now claims its leader is God, not Jesus.
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

3. If Jesus is King of Jews, then surrendering to His authority and Lordship makes one a part of His kingdom - a Jew.  Not only it this logical, but its Biblical.

4. The LAW still stands.  Those who surrender to Christ are justified in that the punishment for their SIN is removed by the blood of Jesus.  Shall we who are now forgiven rush back into the arms of SIN?  God forbid. May it never be.  The LAW still stands.  We are granted grace so as to live lives pleasing to God according to the LAW.

5. How did Christ fulfill the LAW?  If now that requirement of LAW is fulfilled by Christ then the LAW isn't abolished.  It is still in effect.

6. The Lord never abandoned His people Israel.  They live and exist among the family of nations in fulfillment of the prophecy of Ezekiel 37.  Whether anti-semitic types like it or not God is still with His people Israel - AS WELL AS those who join themselves to it via the Kingdom of Christ.

Hope this clears up a few basic items.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[4WD]

You have in the that posting just proven yourself guilty of your own criticism that "interpretations assigned to certain phrases pulled out of context and given importance its doesn't deserve and which God did not intend".  You do it with nearly everything you post.