Is there a present burning hell where departed souls of the wicked are sent?

[4WD]

God did NOT SEE the future and SEE the the Tribulation Period unfold. God will make happen what He says will happen during the Tribulation period. He did not see a mountain being cast into the sea, and therefore wrote it in His Word. God will make it happen because it is written in His Word that is what He is going to do.

That is the basis of "open theism" or "open theology" which is heresy.  And everything that comes out of it is heresy as well.

Time is a physical entity, just like space. Space and time, actually space-time, were created by God and God is not subject or constrained by His own creation. There is a reasonable argument that linear time as you call it comes as a result of the second law of thermodynamics, another of God's creation.

[DiscipleDave]

Brother Dave said

God did NOT SEE the future and SEE the the Tribulation Period unfold. God will make happen what He says will happen during the Tribulation period. He did not see a mountain being cast into the sea, and therefore wrote it in His Word. God will make it happen because it is written in His Word that is what He is going to do.

4WD said

That is the basis of "open theism" or "open theology" which is heresy.  And everything that comes out of it is heresy as well.

As i have said before i know not what open theism means or open theology means, i merely know what God told me and revealed to me, and that is what i teach. If it is heresy that i teach, then i will yet again, not that it will help, ask you to reveal something that i have said and the verse in Scriptures that it contradicts. Thank you.

4WD says

Time is a physical entity,

Where do you get your learning from? i have been a huge Science buff my whole entire life, and what you are saying here, is NOT True at all, nor is it in any way Science.
What makes something Physical is it consists of MATTER, Electrons, Protrons, Nuetrons, ie the Atom. That is what makes up all Physical matter in the universe. TIME has NO matter, it is NOT as you teach a physical entity. Stop teaching such nonsense would be my advice to you.

4WD says

Time is a physical entity, just like space. Space and time, actually space-time, were created by God and God is not subject or constrained by His own creation.

Subject to His own creation that is correct, but constrained by His own creation that is another story.
God can't kill the fallen Angel Lucifer, known as satan and the devil. Why? Because God created Him IMMORTAL and God is constrained to KILL him.

God created all inhabitants of Heaven IMMORTAL. Even the Spirit that is in you, which came from God, is IMMORTAL. That is why we are told we will either end up in Heaven for all eternity or end up rejected from Heaven for all eternity. Either way the Spirit lives on for all eternity, because God is constrained to do otherwise because He created them IMMORTAL.

God is also constrained to commit any kind of sin. He can choose to commit sin, because He is God and can Do whatsoever He desires, but He is constrained to do so, because if He did, He makes Himself a liar.

4WD says 

There is a reasonable argument that linear time as you call it comes as a result of the second law of thermodynamics, another of God's creation.

i know nothing about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, i probably did though in my younger days, i don't remember that now though. i love Science, because it is what God used to create everything.

you say

. .. . . .. that linear time as you call it comes as a result of .. . . . . .. . .

Linear Time in not a RESULT of anything. It just happens. "One moment after the next moment" That is not a result of anything, but just is what happens.

[4WD]

i know nothing about the 2nd law of thermodynamics, i probably did though in my younger days, i don't remember that now though. i love Science, because it is what God used to create everything.

You see there; that is how I know God isn't telling you anything.  God didn't use science; science is the study, by human beings, of the natural law which God created.

I don't know who is talking to you, if anyone; I don't know who or what you are hearing.  But it is not God that is talking to you and it is not God that you are hearing.

[Choir Loft]

Gen 2:7
Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The breath of God is eternal since GOD Himself is eternal.

The physical Tree of Life in the physical Garden would maintain PHYSICAL life forever. 

Some other verses to support eternal conscious punishment and that the spirit of man is as eternal as the God who gave it:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matt 26:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 1:8
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

The idea of eternal torment is a PAGAN idea, not that which is presented in Holy Writ. 

It was adopted into the RCC by St. Augustine and others as Vatican dogma BUT was rejected by the fathers of the Protestant Reformation five hundred years ago.  Calvin Luther Zwingli and others among them.  Since the mid 19th century Protestantism has gradually allowed the gospel to be diluted.   The false dogma of everlasting punishment is one of them.  God kills.  God doesn't torture.

There is no place in the Bible where everlasting torture is established as intent of or result of final judgment.

In order to establish the doctrine of eternal torment one must PROVE that man has an immortal soul.  The Bible doesn't establish that either.  In fact, it says man dies like any dog or cockroach.  Torture to punish an immortal human spirit is therefore unnecessary.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

The Bible says ONLY GOD is immortal.  Man is thus excluded from possessing a natural ability to survive physical death.

who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. - 1 Tim 6:16

Ancient Egypt established the idea that some part of man survived physical death.  It was later adopted by the Greeks Romans and ultimately the RCC.  The purpose of encorporating the doctrine was to promote fear mongering which resulted in increased membership and the authority of the Roman Catholic priesthood.

Myths of post-death torment were initially included in translations of canonical text by the Vatican.  These deliberate alterations in the Biblical text were included in subsequent translations.  Pope Damasus commissioned St. Jerome to translate certain portions of the original Hebrew and Greek texts into a single volume in Latin on or about the third century.  This version is generally called the Vulgate.  Five hundred years ago, protestant reformation nations of Germany and England wanted a translation of the Bible into their own language.   The English version was called the King James Version, but was derived from the Vulgate NOT the original Hebrew and Greek.  Certain idioms entered into the Vulgate version by St. Jerome were therefor passed along.  Some of these referenced eternal torment.  Here are a few errors:

Hell - the word is derived from old English and Viking myths about the underworld called "hel".  Hel was not a place of torture, but simply a stage upon which were enacted certain mythical dramas.

Hades - Hades was the Greek god of the underworld.  Like the citizens of hel, the people of Hades entertained their own forms of dramatic existence.  Hades was a person, not a place.

Gehenna - Gehenna was an actual city dump located on the southwest side of Jerusalem.  In this place was delivered all the refuse of the town by its people.  Jesus' reference to Gehenna as the ultimate destiny of the lost was understood to be a shameful disgrace.  Gehenna was also the place where children were once sacrificed by burning to the pagan god Molech.  Biblical references to Gehenna were insulting if not completely disgusting.  As a result it reflected God's opinion of SINNERS.  THAT WHICH IS THROWN INTO the GEHENNA city dump IS ALREADY DEAD !!!

Sheol - Sheol was simply the Hebrew reference to a cemetery.  There is no treatment of the subject in the Tanakh at all until the reader gets to the gospels where some very strange attributes are related.  None of those have to do with torture.

In summation, there is no actual Hellish place of eternal torment mentioned in the Bible.  Such a place would require an eternal spark in man that the Bible denies.

The destiny of natural man is death.  The Bible promises God will endow his saints with His own immortal life, but there isn't even a hint that He will do so for SINNERS.  Those who reject Christ will themselves be rejected.  In God there is life forever.  Apart from God, the sentence of the damned, there is no life at all.

In order to justify the RCC dogma of eternal torment two simple and easily understood words must be corrupted; death and fire.   The quality of fire is to destroy and consume.  Some types of fire are temporary and do not completely destroy everything it touches.  The Bible says God's fire of judgment is eternal, meaning that it burns completely and destroys absolutely.  The other word is death, which means total cessation of life.   The RCC concept of everlasting torment MUST pervert the two simple words of death and fire in order to persuade the simple minded of its myth.

Considering the alternative of death, which is absolute for all living things upon earth, the GOSPEL delivers amazing revolutionary news.  God has chosen to grant of His own life to those who repent of their SINs and accept the Lordship of Jesus Christ.  Immortality vs. death is a big deal in any language on earth as indeed it has proved to be.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...   

[Rella]

The idea of eternal torment is a PAGAN idea, not that which is presented in Holy Writ. 

It was adopted into the RCC by St. Augustine and others as Vatican dogma BUT was rejected by the fathers of the Protestant Reformation five hundred years ago.  Calvin Luther Zwingli and others among them.  Since the mid 19th century Protestantism has gradually allowed the gospel to be diluted.   The false dogma of everlasting punishment is one of them.  God kills.  God doesn't torture.

There is no place in the Bible where everlasting torture is established as intent of or result of final judgment.

In order to establish the doctrine of eternal torment one must PROVE that man has an immortal soul.  The Bible doesn't establish that either.  In fact, it says man dies like any dog or cockroach.  Torture to punish an immortal human spirit is therefore unnecessary.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

The Bible says ONLY GOD is immortal.  Man is thus excluded from possessing a natural ability to survive physical death.

who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. - 1 Tim 6:16

Ancient Egypt established the idea that some part of man survived physical death.  It was later adopted by the Greeks Romans and ultimately the RCC.  The purpose of encorporating the doctrine was to promote fear mongering which resulted in increased membership and the authority of the Roman Catholic priesthood.

Myths of post-death torment were initially included in translations of canonical text by the Vatican.  These deliberate alterations in the Biblical text were included in subsequent translations.  Pope Damasus commissioned St. Jerome to translate certain portions of the original Hebrew and Greek texts into a single volume in Latin on or about the third century.  This version is generally called the Vulgate.  Five hundred years ago, protestant reformation nations of Germany and England wanted a translation of the Bible into their own language.   The English version was called the King James Version, but was derived from the Vulgate NOT the original Hebrew and Greek.  Certain idioms entered into the Vulgate version by St. Jerome were therefor passed along.  Some of these referenced eternal torment.  Here are a few errors:

Hell - the word is derived from old English and Viking myths about the underworld called "hel".  Hel was not a place of torture, but simply a stage upon which were enacted certain mythical dramas.

Hades - Hades was the Greek god of the underworld.  Like the citizens of hel, the people of Hades entertained their own forms of dramatic existence.  Hades was a person, not a place.

Gehenna - Gehenna was an actual city dump located on the southwest side of Jerusalem.  In this place was delivered all the refuse of the town by its people.  Jesus' reference to Gehenna as the ultimate destiny of the lost was understood to be a shameful disgrace.  Gehenna was also the place where children were once sacrificed by burning to the pagan god Molech.  Biblical references to Gehenna were insulting if not completely disgusting.  As a result it reflected God's opinion of SINNERS.  THAT WHICH IS THROWN INTO the GEHENNA city dump IS ALREADY DEAD !!!

Sheol - Sheol was simply the Hebrew reference to a cemetery.  There is no treatment of the subject in the Tanakh at all until the reader gets to the gospels where some very strange attributes are related.  None of those have to do with torture.

In summation, there is no actual Hellish place of eternal torment mentioned in the Bible.  Such a place would require an eternal spark in man that the Bible denies.

The destiny of natural man is death.  The Bible promises God will endow his saints with His own immortal life, but there isn't even a hint that He will do so for SINNERS.  Those who reject Christ will themselves be rejected.  In God there is life forever.  Apart from God, the sentence of the damned, there is no life at all.

In order to justify the RCC dogma of eternal torment two simple and easily understood words must be corrupted; death and fire.   The quality of fire is to destroy and consume.  Some types of fire are temporary and do not completely destroy everything it touches.  The Bible says God's fire of judgment is eternal, meaning that it burns completely and destroys absolutely.  The other word is death, which means total cessation of life.   The RCC concept of everlasting torment MUST pervert the two simple words of death and fire in order to persuade the simple minded of its myth.

Considering the alternative of death, which is absolute for all living things upon earth, the GOSPEL delivers amazing revolutionary news.  God has chosen to grant of His own life to those who repent of their SINs and accept the Lordship of Jesus Christ.  Immortality vs. death is a big deal in any language on earth as indeed it has proved to be.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

One question.

What do you understand the word punishment to mean?

How do you interpret from Jesus' own mouth...

Matthew 25:46
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ?

(Here is a little light  reading for you and for you to store away wherever you store things that you might reference once in a while.

....since the Bible is silent when it comes to specific information as to the nature of the punishment, being satisfied simply to emphasize the horror of its reality....

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Everlasting-Punishment#:~:text=The%20term%20ai%C5%8Dnios%20k%C3%B3lasis%20%28%E2%80%9Ceternal%20punishment%E2%80%9D%20in%20RSV%2C,the%20KJV%20sometimes%20uses%20%E2%80%9Ceternal%E2%80%9D%20and%20sometimes%20%E2%80%9Ceverlasting.%E2%80%9D )

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

One question.

What do you understand the word punishment to mean?

How do you interpret from Jesus' own mouth...

Matthew 25:46
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but it was interesting enough that I went and looked up the verse.

Punishment in this verse is a word that mean "to cut short" or "prune." 

I was immediately put in mind of that other passage where the the natural branches are pruned, and the wild branches grafted in.

Jarrod

[Rella]

Quote from: Rella on Fri Feb 04, 2022 - 08:33:52
One question.

What do you understand the word punishment to mean?

How do you interpret from Jesus' own mouth...

Matthew 25:46
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ?

[/size]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but it was interesting enough that I went and looked up the verse.

Punishment in this verse is a word that mean "to cut short" or "prune." 

I was immediately put in mind of that other passage where the the natural branches are pruned, and the wild branches grafted in.

Jarrod

Hi Jarrod,

I had not looked up the meaning and glad you did and posted.

Let's talk a bit about to potential meanings of the natural branches are pruned...

I see... The biblical definition for pruning outlines it as a method for removing what is not necessary. This means there are things that can be attached to our lives that are not beneficial. Some examples of these could include sin, bad habits, and negative relationships which can be hindering to our personal and spiritual growth.

Is it safe to say we might be able to further translated this singular verse to read "These will go away into eternal removal, but the righteous into eternal life." ?

Would removal equal a punishment?

Would an eternal removal  necessarily mean that at some point one would absolutely cease to exist?

I am put in mind the verse that says in Matt 10:28  28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apolesai)  both soul and body in hell.

apolesai = destroy

The Greek word apollumi for "destroy" is the only Greek word translated "lost." Interpreting this word only as "annihilation" or "extinction" would eliminate the word "lost" from the New Testament. Furthermore, interpreting the word as "annihilate" is preferential and would dismiss the general meaning of the word, its flexibility, and its context.

A long but interesting read...

https://godsbreath.net/2015/01/04/are-souls-annihilated-in-hell/

A longer and more confusing read... but of value I believe.

https://www.perspectivedigest.org/archive/21-1/eternal-punishment-in-hell

[DaveW]

I was immediately put in mind of that other passage where the the natural branches are pruned, and the wild branches grafted in.

Not "pruned" as in neatly cut; but BROKEN off. 

Romans 11:17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

[Choir Loft]

One question.

What do you understand the word punishment to mean?

How do you interpret from Jesus' own mouth...

Matthew 25:46
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ?

(Here is a little light  reading for you and for you to store away wherever you store things that you might reference once in a while.

....since the Bible is silent when it comes to specific information as to the nature of the punishment, being satisfied simply to emphasize the horror of its reality....

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Everlasting-Punishment#:~:text=The%20term%20ai%C5%8Dnios%20k%C3%B3lasis%20%28%E2%80%9Ceternal%20punishment%E2%80%9D%20in%20RSV%2C,the%20KJV%20sometimes%20uses%20%E2%80%9Ceternal%E2%80%9D%20and%20sometimes%20%E2%80%9Ceverlasting.%E2%80%9D )

you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die." - Genesis 2:17

Do we not know what the word DEATH means?

"Death" means cessation of ALL life. 

The punishment Jesus spoke of was the Second Death - eviction/separation from God.   According to the Bible God is the author of life.  If God = life, then separation from God is NOT life.  It is death.  Please visit your local cemetery to understand the meaning of death.  It is written there on a thousand tombstones.  Comic book definitions do not apply in the cemetery.  Death means all life ends - forever. 

FIRE is that which consumes.  There are two types of fire.  One type partially burns - as in Sunday afternoon BBQ.  The other type consumes completely with nothing left, not even ashes.  The second type - the Second Death - is that which consumes completely.  Nothing is left of that which it touches.

The punishment Jesus spoke of was irreversible death of body mind and spirit of those who demonstrate rebellion against Him.  It does NOT refer to continual conscious torment.  The 'sentence' of death is permanent without parole review or second chances.  Consider the destiny of the kingdom of Sodom.  Their fate was a demonstration of God's eternal punishment of those who lived in that wicked place.  The citizens of Sodom are permanently dead forever.  They won't come back in any form whatsoever.  Sodom was a killing ground, not everlasting torture.

Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. - Jude 1:7

The fire that fell upon the five cities of the kingdom of Sodom DESTROYED everyone and all their works.  None survived.  As of today there would be no evidence of their ever having lived upon the earth except for the example provided in God's Word.   

Today we are warned that God's intention to destroy SINNERS will be permanent.  God kills.  God does not torture.  The fire is permanent.  The destruction is irreversible forever (as with Sodom).  Death is permanent in that life ceased forever.   

Finally the Bible states immortal life is given to the saints.  NOWHERE does the Bible promise eternal life to SINNERS - even in a non-existent torture chamber.

The idea of eternal torment is a myth promoted by the Roman Catholic church, which it adapted from Greek and Roman myth.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

JAIME:

    As to your #18 Reply: Please consider that the bulk of Revelation is composed of symbolic and figurative language. If you have access to Adam Clarke's Commentary on Revelation, or any other good Commentary, it might be helpful to go there. I may have something to say about the Revelation passages you introduced later.

Buff

While true that Revelation is primarily symbolic, the Bible interprets itself.

One does not need to wander far and wide to consider the words of those who promote Roman Catholic ideology on the End Times. ( * )

(FUTURISM by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera in the 16th century and John Nelson Darby, consort of witches, in the 19th)

The Rosetta Stone of symbolic Biblical language can be discovered by studying the book of Daniel.

No study of End Times prophecy can be complete without an understanding of both Daniel & Revelation. There are many assertions falsely claimed these days by people who do NOT read and study the Tanakh when they invent their myths of what is to come. (For instance, the book of Mosaic LAW in Exodus explains EXACTLY the nature of Mark of the beast in Revelation 16.)

The problem isn't Biblical imagery.   The problem is present refusal of church types who do NOT reference the Tanakh - whose allegiance is to the Vatican, not Jesus Christ and whose actions deny the commandments of the Most High Living God. 

If religion were a card game, then Church tradition, like Jewish tradition, trumps Torah.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*)
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. - Daniel 7:25

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

[DaveW]

Do we not know what the word DEATH means?
"Death" means cessation of ALL life.

Biblically "death" means separation from God, NOT the "cessation of ALL life."

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

While true that Revelation is primarily symbolic, the Bible interprets itself.

...

The Rosetta Stone of symbolic Biblical language can be discovered by studying the book of Daniel.

Heh.  The second half of Daniel is even harder than Revelation.  That's like studying Sir Francis Bacon in order to better understand Kevin Bacon.

The keys are withing the Hebrew language itself.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Biblically "death" means separation from God, NOT the "cessation of ALL life."

Uh... both I think... context is needed.

[DaveW]

That's like studying Sir Francis Bacon in order to better understand Kevin Bacon.

Hey - Bacon is not kosher.

Unless it is turkey bacon.  Do you think Sir Francis or Kevin are turkeys?

      

[Choir Loft]

Uh... both I think... context is needed.

Read Genesis 3.

The judgment for SIN that was earned by Eve and Adam was DEATH. 

Immediate spiritual death happened when the young couple were evicted from Eden and the fellowship they enjoyed with God.  Following their final confrontation with God there is no record they had ANY other interaction with the Most High.

It's also a fact that Eve and Adam eventually died as physical creatures even though it took quite a long time to catch up with them.

SIN resulted in immediate spiritual death and eventual physical death.

The doctrine of the FALL is basic to the gospel and God's plan of redemption.   If the FALL is denied and if the consequences of the FALL are denied, then the gospel is likewise false.   

The problem with SIN is that everybody defends it and denies what Holy Writ insists upon.  Death is final - be it spiritual or physical.  Death is entirely and completely destructive of conscious thought word and act.  There is NOTHING beyond the grave.  Every cemetery in every city and town is evidence of this truth.   The problem is that human imagination likes to believe otherwise - to refuse the concrete facts of life death and the grave.

To deny it is to deny all the rest of the Biblical account of God's redemptive work with mankind.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[4WD]

That is just wrong.  Adam and Eve died a physical death because they no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which could keep alive their physical, mortal bodies.  That was the purpose of the tree.  If they were not subject to physical death before they sinned and were ejected, then there would have been no useful purpose of the tree of life in the garden.  It would have been completely out of place.

And they didn't die spiritually when they were ejected from the Garden; they died spiritually the instant the disobeyed God.

[Choir Loft]

Biblically "death" means separation from God, NOT the "cessation of ALL life."

Here is a mystery.  An adult human who doesn't know what death really is.

Amazing.

If God is the author of life, then separation from God is absolute death, absolutely.   

ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL
"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light" - 1 Tim 6:16

MAN IS MORTAL - SUBJECT TO DEATH
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal" - Genesis 6:3a

THERE IS NO ETERNAL 'SPARK' IN MAN - NO PART THAT SURVIVES PHYSICAL DEATH
Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

THE HUMAN [FALLEN] CONDITION
The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:4
We know that God does not listen to sinners.  - John 9:31

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

That is just wrong.  Adam and Eve died a physical death because they no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which could keep alive their physical, mortal bodies.  That was the purpose of the tree.  If they were not subject to physical death before they sinned and were ejected, then there would have been no useful purpose of the tree of life in the garden.  It would have been completely out of place.

And they didn't die spiritually when they were ejected from the Garden; they died spiritually the instant the disobeyed God.

READ GENESIS 3.

Eve and Adam NEVER ate of the tree of life.  Show me chapter and verse where it says they did.  You can't because they didn't.

READ GENESIS 3.

Eve and Adam didn't die the instant they disobeyed God.  READ GENESIS 3.  There was an encounter with God following their SIN. During this encounter God pronounced judgment against them both.  The pattern of SIN being followed by an encounter with God who then pronounces JUDGMENT is repeated in the epistles and the White Throne judgment of Revelation.  God doesn't just kill.  He explains the reasons for it before He acts upon it.  Personally I don't know why He does this. God doesn't owe an explanation to anybody.  Nevertheless this is the way He chooses to judge. 

READ GENESIS 3.

One of the reasons they were ejected from Eden was to prevent them from eating of the Tree of Life.
One of the reasons they were ejected from Eden was to demonstrate the consequences of departure from the presence of God - WHICH IS DEATH.

This understanding is basic to the gospel - to understanding the human condition as revealed by God's Word.  The beginning of the road to redemption begins at the end of Eden.

READ GENESIS 1-3
This portion of scripture reveals how the IMAGE OF GOD was granted to mankind and how IT WAS LOST.  Traditionally this is referred to as "the fall".

There is no longer an autonomous "image of God" in mankind.  It's been irrevocably lost.  Any suggestion that humans still possess this image is Biblically incorrect. As proof of this consider all the discussion about what it may be.  Nobody knows because it's been lost. Babies are born in the image of their parents - in the image of fallen mankind - in the image of Eve and Adam.

HOWEVER....

The hope of redemption of man rests in Christ in whose image we are being conformed to by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 3:18).  However, this new image is not autonomous.  We continue to be subject to the desires and guidance and restrictions of the Holy Spirit, not ourselves (see Romans 6, 7 & 8).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[4WD]

READ GENESIS 3.

Eve and Adam NEVER ate of the tree of life.  Show me chapter and verse where it says they did.  You can't because they didn't.

No you show me where it says they didn't.   Gen 2:16,17  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,  By your interpretation, the only thing they ate was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  That is really bad interpretation.

READ GENESIS 3.

Eve and Adam didn't die the instant they disobeyed God.  READ GENESIS 3.  There was an encounter with God following their SIN. During this encounter God pronounced judgment against them both.

Judgment was pronounced when they were instructed not to eat.  Gen 3:3  but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"

READ GENESIS 3.

One of the reasons they were ejected from Eden was to prevent them from eating of the Tree of Life.

So then, why was the tree of life in the garden in the first place?

BUT those that have accepted Christ Jesus now eat of the fruit of His eternal life....

Now you are intentionally confounding and confusing the spiritual with the physical.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Perhaps you should spend less time hollering and more time studying.

[Choir Loft]

No you show me where it says they didn't.   Gen 2:16,17  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,  By your interpretation, the only thing they ate was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  That is really bad interpretation. Judgment was pronounced when they were instructed not to eat.  Gen 3:3  but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" So then, why was the tree of life in the garden in the first place?Now you are intentionally confounding and confusing the spiritual with the physical.Perhaps you should spend less time hollering and more time studying.

You've got your head stuck in a swamp of unBiblical conjecture.

I never wrote or implied Eve and Adam ate only from the Tree of Life.  Indeed I challenged you to supply scripture to state they did so on any occasion.  My interpretation isn't bad.  Yours is limited in that not only can you not read the Bible but you refuse to accept anything other than your opinion of it.

I can tell you why the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was forbidden to Eve and Adam, but since you appear to deliberately obfuscate my specific statements regarding judgment and death it would be impossible for you to accept or understand anything I or anybody else may offer.

Finally I must add that despite your ad hominem attack you didn't supply ANY scripture reference that said Eve and Adam EVER ate of the Tree of Life. 

Please read Genesis 3.

If you have anything of value to add regarding that scripture I'd like to read it.  Otherwise I believe all you are capable of is entertaining false notions of unBiblical assumptions.   Please, for the sake of your personal edification, read Genesis 3.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

Hey - Bacon is not kosher.

Unless it is turkey bacon.  Do you think Sir Francis or Kevin are turkeys?

      

Not all turkey bacon is kosher.   Also not all turkeys are kosher either.  Some brands are kosher and some aren't.

The caveat is how the bird is killed.  Turkey needs to be killed according to rabbinic law.  One aspect is that the blood must be removed.  If you buy turkey that's at all bloody it isn't kosher. 

Additionally, a cheese burger isn't kosher either - with or without turkey bacon.   Dietary law forbids meat being directly eaten with dairy products.

On the other hand, I can find no restrictions about mystery meat served at MacDonalds' (which may or may not be actual meat) and plastic cheese that almost everybody serves with their food these days.

Jewish dietary restrictions address actual food.  Most of the stuff we eat is a chemical composite of one sort or another.  When was the last time you ate real ice cream?

Have you eaten at an airport lately?  Cardboard tastes better.  (btw cardboard doesn't need kosher certification - just in case you want to munch on it)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Watching people argue about a literal genesis is like:

[4WD]

You've got your head stuck in a swamp of unBiblical conjecture.

I never wrote or implied Eve and Adam ate only from the Tree of Life. 

I never said you did.

I can tell you why the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was forbidden to Eve and Adam, but since you appear to deliberately obfuscate my specific statements regarding judgment and death it would be impossible for you to accept or understand anything I or anybody else may offer.

I didn't ask for that.  I asked you why the tree of life was in the Garden.

Finally I must add that despite your ad hominem attack you didn't supply ANY scripture reference that said Eve and Adam EVER ate of the Tree of Life. 

There is no scripture reference that they ate anything other than the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  So obviously, by your argument, they didn't.

It continues to be apparent that you do not read with much comprehension.

[DaveW]

We know that God does not listen to sinners.  - John 9:31

OFF TOPIC RANT:

Why does everyone take this verse as absolutely true when it was spoken by a group of Pharisees trying to discredit our Lord? Read the whole chapter.  It was Jesus they were calling the sinner that God does not listen to.

[/off topic rant]

[Choir Loft]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but it was interesting enough that I went and looked up the verse.

Punishment in this verse is a word that mean "to cut short" or "prune." 

I was immediately put in mind of that other passage where the the natural branches are pruned, and the wild branches grafted in.

Jarrod

Contextual interpretation of the word punishment generally means what you've stated.  It implies being pruned or 'cut off'.  In Romans 11:17 we read that natural branches of the True Vine (Jesus) were pruned or cut-off so that wild branches might be grafted-in - supported and nurtured by the root Jesus.

In the OT (Tanakh) the word punishment is generally used with the same meaning.  Possessions are removed and even the land itself is taken away from Judah when the people are taken into captivity in Babylon. 

Punishment NEVER implies torture either temporary or permanent.

In Paul's first letter to Timothy verse 1:20 states that two members of the church (Hymenaeus and Alexander) are "cut-off" or handed over to satan so as to learn to respect the NAME of God.  In some versions the word punishment is substituted.   In no case are these two vagrants tortured.

NOT ALL suffering is punishment.  In Peter's first letter we are instructed in verses 12-19 that suffering may be the result of one's devotion to God.  It comes from worldly sources and isn't to be regarded as punishment.  The instruction is contrasted with the statement in verse 17 that the time has begun for the church itself to be judged.  If the church is judged, then how much greater shall be the suffering and punishment for those who continue to reject Jesus Christ?

Punishment NEVER implies torture either temporary or permanent.

Finally it should be clearly understood that immortal life is a reward granted by God to the Saints.  It is NEVER granted to SINNERS for any reason whatsoever.   Therefore, those who reject Christ during their brief existence on earth will die physically - never again to return to life.  Death is irreversible.  When one dies one is dead forever.  Death means death.  It doesn't imply some sort of grotesque eternal torture promoted by Saints who participate in the flailing of SINNERS as many look on applauding and laughing and approving of the carnage before them.

Punishment is generally temporary.  Death is permanent.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...   

[Rella]

The subect presents a question that has been debated for as long as I can remember and written about also.

The following links offer views on both sides and I present them here for your varied considerations.

From my standpoint. I know what I was taught all my life. I know what I have read on the subject. And yes, I have been frightened that somehow I will blow it in this lifetime.

But there still is a lot of unexplained and not clear even among those who have studied this subject... not so much if there is a present or eternal burning hell, but if the wicked are sent there , even for just a brief time.

Are Souls Annihilated in Hell?

https://godsbreath.net/2015/01/04/are-souls-annihilated-in-hell/

Eternal Punishment in Hell and the Immortality of the Soul

https://www.perspectivedigest.org/archive/21-1/eternal-punishment-in-hell

What Does Jesus Say about Hell Being Eternal and Just?

https://godsbreath.net/2011/12/23/how-could-hell-be-just/

ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE BIBLE – EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Everlasting-Punishment

[Hobie]

Let us consider this subject, proofs for this doctrine and proofs against this doctrine.

Many teach there is a literal burning hellfire now where the wicked go at the death of their bodies. You would think such people who believe this doctrine would have many scriptures supporting them, and it would be easy to defend this doctrine of endless suffering for the wicked. The majority of professing Christians I believe hold to this doctrine, a doctrine that I was taught when I first came to Christ, and just assumed it was so, only later I had trouble finding any support for such a doctrine.

Actually, it was taught as one of the cardinal truths by which you measure a person's faith.

Let me get right to this study~by giving many infallible poofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, never to end, other than to be cast into the lake of fire, which the Holy Spirit tells us IS the SECOND DEATH.

1.  The Scriptures hold forth no such thing, as will be shown; we ought not to presume above that which is written; which many do~ revealed things belong to us.It will soon be evident the NT and OT are silent about such as place as a literal burning hellfire, now and will be hereafter for eternity according to many folks faith.

2.  The doctrine of a punishment never to end is contrary to the word of God, because it maintains that the wicked shall have eternal life. If man was to live forever, why was the flaming sword set to keep the way of the tree of life? Genesis. 3:24~ Lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of life, and live forever. No eternal life came by the first Adam: eternal life came by Jesus Christ, who is the tree of life, eternal life promised and given by Jesus Christ: Eternal life by Jesus Christ, Romans 5:21; and, he that eateth of this bread shall live forever, John 6:58. Because I live, ye shall live also, John 14:19. God sent his Son, that we might live through him, 1st John 4:9. Only believers have eternal life: he that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, John 3:36. Whosoever believeth shall not perish, but have everlasting life, John 3:14-15. I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, John 10:28. The wicked abide not forever, 1st John 2:17. If ye live after the flesh ye shall die, Romans 8:13. Him will God destroy,  1st Corinthians 3:17. The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, 1st Corinthians 1:18; 2nd Thess 2:10. Utterly perish, 2nd Peter 2:12; Luke 13:3. To their own destruction, 2nd Peter 3:16. Abideth in death, Romans 6:21,23; 1st John 3:14. They shall be destroyed forever, Psalm 92:7.

If they perish and not have eternal life, then they cannot live forever. God said, if thou eatest, thou shalt surely die, Genesis 2:17; but the serpent said, ye shall not die, Genesis 3:4. So the serpent, which is the devil, hath taught men to say as the serpent said, Now they have eaten they shall not die, but shall live forever, and never die; which is to say, God is the liar, and that which the devil said is truth. The word saith, him will God destroy, Matthew 21:41; 1st Corinthians 3:17; 6:13. They shall be destroyed, 2nd Peter 2:12. Swift destruction, their end is destruction, 2nd Peter 2:1. Their opinion saith, they shall never be destroyed, die, nor end, which is no destruction. The word saith, The last enemy is death, 1st Corinthians 15:26. Their opinion saith, that is not the last; there is one after it, which is much worse, and will never end. It saith, God's anger is forever, he will never turn from it: contrary to Jeremiah 3:12; Psalm 50:5; 89:5; 78:38. False prophets said...... they shall suffer so long as God is God; if so, then they have eternal life, (though in misery,) whereas the Scripture doth not declare eternal life to be for all men, John 6:45-47. Promised to us eternal life, 1st John 2:17,25. I give unto them eternal life, to as many as thou hast given me, John 17:2-3. In hope of eternal life, Titus 1:2. As many as were ordained to eternal life believed, Acts 13:48. They that have done good unto the resurrection of life, John 5:29. If it be granted that the wicked have not eternal life, as hath been proved, it will follow that they cannot suffer forever, so long as God is God; and therefore all their building of punishment never to end falls: grant the first, and the latter must needs to follow.

If Adam had not sinned, he should have died; as appears from the following considerations~

He had, in his creation, a natural body, 1st Corinthians 15:44: that which is natural is not eternal, ver. 46, he was of the earth, earthly, ver. 47-48, therefore mortal and corruptible, ver. 53-54.

Man in his first being was corporal and visible to be seen; things seen are not eternal. Some believe if Adam had stood, he could not have conveyed to us a body immortal, if God had given Adam an immortal and unchangeable nature, he had created a god, and not a man. Augustine, in his Book of Confessions, saith, because the Lord created man of nothing, therefore he left in man a possibility to return to nothing, if he obeyed not the will of his Maker.

Just getting started~RB

Very good study, will have to go over it..

[Red Baker]

Yes, there is a present hell.

It's called California.

You may have a good point!

[NyawehNyoh]

~
It's one thing to discuss Hell from the perspective of an armchair expert with no emotional attachment, while quite another when one of your own might be down there.

My kid brother decided early to live life on his own terms and not allow religion to get in his way. As a result, he was secular his entire life before passing away back in March of 2016 at 71 of pancreatic cancer. Well; if there's a Hell, it's pretty certain my brother is down there; and that suspicion has a very strong effect on my thoughts and feelings about eternal suffering.

The thing is; my brother isn't just another nondescript skull in the gene pool: he's my kin, my very next of kin actually, We were born the same year: me in January and him in December. We grew up in the same home, were nurtured by the same parents, ate the same foods, attended the same church, and slept in the same bed for a while till dad got us some bunks. We had mostly the same friends, and kept each other company and were playmates together for quite a few years throughout childhood. Our life together as juniors joined us at the hip, so to speak: forging a lifelong bond that no amount of disagreement had ever broken.

My brother is a pretty tough guy, but Hell is designed to break people down, and I fear that today my once-fearless adventuresome sibling is now a squeaky little whimpering gerbil wishing he'd taken an interest in religion when it mattered the most.

There's an incident depicted in the 16th chapter of Luke wherein folks on both sides of the afterlife are able to communicate. Well; I hope that's still possible because I'd really like to visit my brother as often as I can before he's transferred to the lake of fire depicted by Rev 20:11-15 because after that, it's very likely I'll never get to see him ever again. And it appears from Rev 21:3-5 that we're in for a memory wipe so I'll not even remember his name and it'll be like he never existed; which is actually a blessing because it would be very unpleasant to have thoughts of my kid brother haunting me forever.
_

[Red Baker]

~
It's one thing to discuss Hell from the perspective of an armchair expert with no emotional attachment, while quite another when one of your own might be down there.

My kid brother decided early to live life on his own terms and not allow religion to get in his way. As a result, he was secular his entire life before passing away back in March of 2016 at 71 of pancreatic cancer. Well; if there's a Hell, it's pretty certain my brother is down there; and that suspicion has a very strong effect on my thoughts and feelings about eternal suffering.

The thing is; my brother isn't just another nondescript skull in the gene pool: he's my kin, my very next of kin actually, We were born the same year: me in January and him in December. We grew up in the same home, were nurtured by the same parents, ate the same foods, attended the same church, and slept in the same bed for a while till dad got us some bunks. We had mostly the same friends, and kept each other company and were playmates together for quite a few years throughout childhood. Our life together as juniors joined us at the hip, so to speak: forging a lifelong bond that no amount of disagreement had ever broken.

My brother is a pretty tough guy, but Hell is designed to break people down, and I fear that today my once-fearless adventuresome sibling is now a squeaky little whimpering gerbil wishing he'd taken an interest in religion when it mattered the most.

There's an incident depicted in the 16th chapter of Luke wherein folks on both sides of the afterlife are able to communicate. Well; I hope that's still possible because I'd really like to visit my brother as often as I can before he's transferred to the lake of fire depicted by Rev 20:11-15 because after that, it's very likely I'll never get to see him ever again. And it appears from Rev 21:3-5 that we're in for a memory wipe so I'll not even remember his name and it'll be like he never existed; which is actually a blessing because it would be very unpleasant to have thoughts of my kid brother haunting me forever.
_

Sir, in all due respect, let me ask you one question~"If you did not have Luke 16 as a reference concerning a burning hellfire, where the wicked go at death, then where else in the scriptures would you go to?"

Does not the scriptures say in the mouth or two or three witnesses shall every word be established? You have only one ~ if I were you, would make sure that Luke 16 is not a parable before believing in such a place.

I'm 100% convinced that it is a parable and can be easily proven to be so.

[Rella]

Sir, in all due respect, let me ask you one question~"If you did not have Luke 16 as a reference concerning a burning hellfire, where the wicked go at death, then where else in the scriptures would you go to?"

Does not the scriptures say in the mouth or two or three witnesses shall every word be established? You have only one ~ if I were you, would make sure that Luke 16 is not a parable before believing in such a place.

I'm 100% convinced that it is a parable and can be easily proven to be so.

Please do so. Show the parable.

If you do a simple search you will find the following answer to
"Do the wicked burn in Hell forever and ever?"

https://www.thebiblesaysthat.com/articles/hell/quick-qa-do-wicked-burn-hell-forever-and-ever

Answer: No. The wicked burn and then perish. We often overlook a simple phrase or word in one of the most recognized scriptures spoken by Jesus. In John 3:16 we read,

Personally, if it was not for the incineration part it would not be so bad.

And I cannot help but wonder for those not saved who die in a fire here... would they then go to another to await til they perish?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Sir, in all due respect, let me ask you one question~"If you did not have Luke 16 as a reference concerning a burning hellfire, where the wicked go at death, then where else in the scriptures would you go to?"

Does not the scriptures say in the mouth or two or three witnesses shall every word be established? You have only one ~ if I were you, would make sure that Luke 16 is not a parable before believing in such a place.

I'm 100% convinced that it is a parable and can be easily proven to be so.

Even if it's literal...

The Hades that people went to before Christ's death and resurrection was a prison whose gates have been broken down and the captives set free.

[Amo]

Here is an interesting tie bit.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The man of sin and those who reject the truth, who are the unsaved, shall be destroyed by the brightness of our Lord's second coming.

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The above described event, is different than the coming of our Lord, where the wicked unsaved are destroyed by the brightness of His coming. The above is concerning the judgment of the dead, or wicked. Those in Christ are born again unto eternal life, and have passed from death to life. They will never stand before God in judgment referred to as the dead, nor will they be judged by their works, or they would be cast into the lake of fire as well. They already chose death in Christ in this life, in favor of His life covering and transforming them. The spiritual death, and newness of life in Christ which they chose during their lives, spares them from the lake of fire, which is the second death. They took part in the first resurrection of the saved unto eternal life, upon whom the second death has no power. Because they already died by faith in Christ Jesus their Lord, and accepted His eternal immortal life, in place of their mortal sinful ones.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The saved take part in the resurrection of life, they are not judged by God after their resurrection because they already passed from death to life in Christ Jesus their Lord here on this earth. Judgment is over for them, and as Paul declared, they themselves will judge angels and the wicked along with God. Whom judges the dead at the resurrection of damnation, which our Lord told us of in the above scriptures. The second death has no power over the saved, nor does the brightness of the second coming of our Lord destroy the saved, but rather changes the living and raises the saved dead unto eternal life evermore.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Praise God, no judgment for God's people, for the Lord has already judged His people and accounted them worthy in Christ Jesus our Savior. No judgment of the dead for the saved who have been given immortality in Christ Jesus.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is it folks, no more judgment for the saved in Christ Jesus after this life. Our Lord and Savior brings His reward with Him when He returns.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

And what is the reward of the saved in Christ Jesus our Lord, but eternal life, Amen.
 

[Hobie]

~
It's one thing to discuss Hell from the perspective of an armchair expert with no emotional attachment, while quite another when one of your own might be down there.

My kid brother decided early to live life on his own terms and not allow religion to get in his way. As a result, he was secular his entire life before passing away back in March of 2016 at 71 of pancreatic cancer. Well; if there's a Hell, it's pretty certain my brother is down there; and that suspicion has a very strong effect on my thoughts and feelings about eternal suffering.

The thing is; my brother isn't just another nondescript skull in the gene pool: he's my kin, my very next of kin actually, We were born the same year: me in January and him in December. We grew up in the same home, were nurtured by the same parents, ate the same foods, attended the same church, and slept in the same bed for a while till dad got us some bunks. We had mostly the same friends, and kept each other company and were playmates together for quite a few years throughout childhood. Our life together as juniors joined us at the hip, so to speak: forging a lifelong bond that no amount of disagreement had ever broken.

My brother is a pretty tough guy, but Hell is designed to break people down, and I fear that today my once-fearless adventuresome sibling is now a squeaky little whimpering gerbil wishing he'd taken an interest in religion when it mattered the most.

There's an incident depicted in the 16th chapter of Luke wherein folks on both sides of the afterlife are able to communicate. Well; I hope that's still possible because I'd really like to visit my brother as often as I can before he's transferred to the lake of fire depicted by Rev 20:11-15 because after that, it's very likely I'll never get to see him ever again. And it appears from Rev 21:3-5 that we're in for a memory wipe so I'll not even remember his name and it'll be like he never existed; which is actually a blessing because it would be very unpleasant to have thoughts of my kid brother haunting me forever.
_

God has to judge before one goes to hell, we cant assume, and scripture tells us it awaits them, not they are in it.

[Hobie]

Let us consider this subject, proofs for this doctrine and proofs against this doctrine.

Many teach there is a literal burning hellfire now where the wicked go at the death of their bodies. You would think such people who believe this doctrine would have many scriptures supporting them, and it would be easy to defend this doctrine of endless suffering for the wicked. The majority of professing Christians I believe hold to this doctrine, a doctrine that I was taught when I first came to Christ, and just assumed it was so, only later I had trouble finding any support for such a doctrine.

Actually, it was taught as one of the cardinal truths by which you measure a person's faith.

Let me get right to this study~by giving many infallible poofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, never to end, other than to be cast into the lake of fire, which the Holy Spirit tells us IS the SECOND DEATH.

1.  The Scriptures hold forth no such thing, as will be shown; we ought not to presume above that which is written; which many do~ revealed things belong to us.It will soon be evident the NT and OT are silent about such as place as a literal burning hellfire, now and will be hereafter for eternity according to many folks faith.

2.  The doctrine of a punishment never to end is contrary to the word of God, because it maintains that the wicked shall have eternal life. If man was to live forever, why was the flaming sword set to keep the way of the tree of life? Genesis. 3:24~ Lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of life, and live forever. No eternal life came by the first Adam: eternal life came by Jesus Christ, who is the tree of life, eternal life promised and given by Jesus Christ: Eternal life by Jesus Christ, Romans 5:21; and, he that eateth of this bread shall live forever, John 6:58. Because I live, ye shall live also, John 14:19. God sent his Son, that we might live through him, 1st John 4:9. Only believers have eternal life: he that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, John 3:36. Whosoever believeth shall not perish, but have everlasting life, John 3:14-15. I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, John 10:28. The wicked abide not forever, 1st John 2:17. If ye live after the flesh ye shall die, Romans 8:13. Him will God destroy,  1st Corinthians 3:17. The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, 1st Corinthians 1:18; 2nd Thess 2:10. Utterly perish, 2nd Peter 2:12; Luke 13:3. To their own destruction, 2nd Peter 3:16. Abideth in death, Romans 6:21,23; 1st John 3:14. They shall be destroyed forever, Psalm 92:7.

If they perish and not have eternal life, then they cannot live forever. God said, if thou eatest, thou shalt surely die, Genesis 2:17; but the serpent said, ye shall not die, Genesis 3:4. So the serpent, which is the devil, hath taught men to say as the serpent said, Now they have eaten they shall not die, but shall live forever, and never die; which is to say, God is the liar, and that which the devil said is truth. The word saith, him will God destroy, Matthew 21:41; 1st Corinthians 3:17; 6:13. They shall be destroyed, 2nd Peter 2:12. Swift destruction, their end is destruction, 2nd Peter 2:1. Their opinion saith, they shall never be destroyed, die, nor end, which is no destruction. The word saith, The last enemy is death, 1st Corinthians 15:26. Their opinion saith, that is not the last; there is one after it, which is much worse, and will never end. It saith, God's anger is forever, he will never turn from it: contrary to Jeremiah 3:12; Psalm 50:5; 89:5; 78:38. False prophets said...... they shall suffer so long as God is God; if so, then they have eternal life, (though in misery,) whereas the Scripture doth not declare eternal life to be for all men, John 6:45-47. Promised to us eternal life, 1st John 2:17,25. I give unto them eternal life, to as many as thou hast given me, John 17:2-3. In hope of eternal life, Titus 1:2. As many as were ordained to eternal life believed, Acts 13:48. They that have done good unto the resurrection of life, John 5:29. If it be granted that the wicked have not eternal life, as hath been proved, it will follow that they cannot suffer forever, so long as God is God; and therefore all their building of punishment never to end falls: grant the first, and the latter must needs to follow.

If Adam had not sinned, he should have died; as appears from the following considerations~

He had, in his creation, a natural body, 1st Corinthians 15:44: that which is natural is not eternal, ver. 46, he was of the earth, earthly, ver. 47-48, therefore mortal and corruptible, ver. 53-54.

Man in his first being was corporal and visible to be seen; things seen are not eternal. Some believe if Adam had stood, he could not have conveyed to us a body immortal, if God had given Adam an immortal and unchangeable nature, he had created a god, and not a man. Augustine, in his Book of Confessions, saith, because the Lord created man of nothing, therefore he left in man a possibility to return to nothing, if he obeyed not the will of his Maker.

Just getting started~RB

No one can be punished without being judged, so no one will be cast in till the Lake of Fire..