Is there a present burning hell where departed souls of the wicked are sent?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Seriously?? You are playing word games with that; and disingenuously so.

No sir.  I believe that.  In fact, you could call it the thesis of my faith.  There is no more important article of faith.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Jesus Christ was God manifest in FLESH

Yes, yes... go on...

We are not God manifest in the flesh.

Yes WE are.  I will qualify that a bit... by WE, I do not mean each of us individually.  I am not the body of Christ.  You are not the body of Christ.  Individually, we are but pieces!

But WE, together, corporately...

WE. are. the. Body. of. Christ.

Have you considered what those six words mean?

...even though we have a new man created after the image of Jesus Christ where his Spirit lives within, it cannot be said that God is manifest IN THE FLESH through our body!

Hard disagree.  It CAN be said that God is manifest IN THE FLESH through our bodIES!

God is not absent from the world.  The gospel is "the kingdom of God is at hand."  That means "here."  He is not far away.  He is not dis-embodied.  Christ is not quarantined in the phantom-zone like some comic book villain.

That's borderline of blasphemy.

Just borderline?  This has ALWAYS been the reaction of the religion establishment to idea that God is PRESENT, and ACTIVE, and that WE ARE HIS HANDS AND FEET.

We are sons of God, but not THE Son of God.

You sure about that?

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Jarrod

[4WD]

RB,
W_S is playing word games.  I can't tell if he is serious or not; if he is it is dangerous stuff because he is trivializing the importance of the coming of the Son of God in the flesh. When the Bible speaks of Christians as the "Body of Christ" it is not equating that to the body of the physical being of Jesus Christ; rather it is speaking of the collection of individuals who are identified as saints, those who believe the gospel. They are not the same.  This is abundantly clear in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, specifically chapter 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.  

[RB]

RB,
W_S is playing word games.  I can't tell if he is serious or not; if he is it is dangerous stuff because he is trivializing the importance of the coming of the Son of God in the flesh. When the Bible speaks of Christians as the "Body of Christ" it is not equating that to the body of the physical being of Jesus Christ; rather it is speaking of the collection of individuals who are identified as saints, those who believe the gospel. They are not the same.  This is abundantly clear in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, specifically chapter 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Strange reasoning by Jarrod.

I've read it twice already and will again do so, so I can attempt to follow his reasoning....not sure I can but here it goes.......

Yes, yes... go on...

Jesus' person, Jesus of Nazareth was God's Son, yet supposed by most to be Joseph's son. Jesus was conceived by the power of the Highest, and at that point of conception, the Word which was God joined Himself to the tabernacle of Jesus, Mary's son and was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king~thus was the saying fulfilled....

Matthew 1:23~"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

Jesus was God's only begotten Son in the manner in which Jesus was begotten. He alone can it be said in his person he was God manifest in the flesh. This cannot be said of any other person, or a body of people, impossible.

Yes, yes... go on...

I just did, and there is no more to add to this truth where it can be said that God is in A PERSON, and that person is TRULY God and equal to God.

Yes WE are.  I will qualify that a bit... by WE, I do not mean each of us individually.  I am not the body of Christ.  You are not the body of Christ.  Individually, we are but pieces!

Okay, so far no disagreement on qualifying your statement.

God is not absent from the world.

Of course He is not, because he is omnipresent~there's no place God is not there, impossible.

But WE, together, corporately...

WE. are. the. Body. of. Christ.

Have you considered what those six words mean?

I see I jumped ahead of myself, I'll back up.

Yes, I have a thousand times over, and have never thought that WE as a body of believers were God manifest in the flesh corporately as a body of believers. The difference between us as believers and Christ as Emmanuel is this: Jesus in his person was the express image of who God is, we as a body of believers are but a flickering light of the glory of God's person.

It CAN be said that God is manifest IN THE FLESH through our bodIES!

Practically, yes, literally, impossible as Christ was God manifest in the flesh.

ust borderline?  This has ALWAYS been the reaction of the religion establishment to idea that God is PRESENT, and ACTIVE, and that WE ARE HIS HANDS AND FEET.

Jarrod, practically since our bodies are the temple of God, then yes we would agree, yet God is not literally manifest AS GOD through us as he was with Christ. WE are not a complex person as Jesus (fully God and fully man) was, neither are we so as a corporate body of Christ.  We as the body of Jesus Christ cannot be said of us that we are the very express image of who God is, since sin is still in our bodies.

You sure about that?

100% sure, since I still struggled in the flesh to live a godly life.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless, I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

These two scriptures have absolutely nothing to do with God literally being manifest in our flesh. As a matter of truth, the first scripture shows that we as believers live NOT by our faith but by the faith of the Son of God who ALONE HAD PERFECT FAITH being the express image of the Eternal God. Again, we at best even with our new man working in us are but flickering light of the glory of the God of heaven. Selah.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

W_S is playing word games.

No I'm not.

I can't tell if he is serious or not;

Dead serious.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Strange reasoning by Jarrod.

What's strange about it?

I'm a spirit that lives in one body.  God is a spirit that lives in a lot of bodies.  This is not that hard. 

He alone can it be said in his person he was God manifest in the flesh. This cannot be said of any other person, or a body of people, impossible.

The body of people we're talking about here is the Body of Christ.  It is not any other person; it is the same person that we already agree is God manifest in the flesh.

Yes, I have a thousand times over, and have never thought that WE as a body of believers were God manifest in the flesh corporately as a body of believers.

Why not?  That is the plain literal meaning of the word body.

The difference between us as believers and Christ as Emmanuel is this: Jesus in his person was the express image of who God is, we as a body of believers are but a flickering light of the glory of God's person.

Jesus is STILL the express image of the Godhead.  We as a body of believers ARE Jesus' body when we act IN CHRIST.

Jarrod, practically since our bodies are the temple of God, then yes we would agree, yet God is not literally manifest AS GOD through us as he was with Christ.

God is literally present in the flesh - through OUR flesh.  But if you're saying that works a little differently than it did for Jesus during his 30-ish year earthly ministry, then yes it does.  He had one body with all the fulness of the Godhead.  For us, we are each but members of the body.  Individually, we do not have the fulness, but just a little part.  It is only together that we have the fulness.

WE are not a complex person as Jesus (fully God and fully man) was, neither are we so as a corporate body of Christ.  We as the body of Jessu Christ cannot be said of us that we are the very express image of who God is, since sin is still in our bodies.

We don't become an army of Jesus-es all wielding the full power of God Almighty.  We become hands or toes or ears or whatever bit is needed.

Jarrod

[4WD]

Dead serious.

OK, Dead serious, but dead wrong.

[RB]

I'm a spirit that lives in one body.  God is a spirit that lives in a lot of bodies.  This is not that hard.

So far, no it is not, but you do not stop there.

The body of people we're talking about here is the Body of Christ.  It is not any other person; it is the same person that we already agree is God manifest in the flesh.

Jarrod, the literal body of Christ, and his spiritual body/temple of believers is not the same and certainly do not possess the same infinite attributes as the Godhead does~this is where we disagree. Do we need to go in-depth and prove this? The church is not in any way equal to the Godhead~that's getting very close to what the Mormons believe.

If a person receives exaltation, they inherit all the attributes of God the Father, including Godhood. Mormons believe that these people will become gods and goddesses in the afterlife, and will have "all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge" equal to God!

If this is not what you believe then you certainly are heading that way it seems.

I must step out but will come back and finish my post.

[Amo]

4WD - If He set aside His divinity, then how could He be fully God?

Why are you asking me? Ask the Holy Spirit of God who inspired the following testimony.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus did not come here to be God, save in paying the penalty for our sins. Apart from this He did not live as God, but as a man, whose faith was in God, and power was of the Spirit of God. As our example in all things.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.]/u]

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

4WD - The Holy Spirit was upon Jesus and that was what gave Him the power for signs, wonders and miracles.  That is not what is offered to the saved as well.  We are given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.  That is not for the power for signs, wonders and miracles.

You are simply wrong 4WD. As the following scriptures testify.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Act 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

4WD - So far as I am aware, the saved sinner Philip was never put in two places at the same time, or three places, or four, or certainly not omnipresent.

Nor did I say he ever was, or try to make any such point. Though even this would be possible by the power of God. Nevertheless, my point was concerning our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that He was and is omnipresent by the Holy Spirit, as I proved from scripture. I take it that having no answer for this obvious truth, you created your own narrative to answer as though it were mine, but it is not.

4WD - Obviously, God is not bound by my limitations, nor is He unbound by your imaginations.  Jesus promises in Matthew 28:20 that He would always be with them [His disciples]. Clearly that was not physically; He had said earlier in 26:11 that "you will not always have me".  So it would seem that He would always be with them [spiritually] but they would not have him physically.

God could not ever be unbound by anyone, let alone imaginations. More nonsensical narrative created to avoid the obvious, that according to the testimony of scripture in any case, you are wrong. Now you are arguing against yourself, as you are the one who claims that God is only Spirit. You just admitted above, that Christ meant He would be with them in the Spirit, but earlier you argued and insisted that Christ could not have actually been in two places at the same time when He saw Nathanael under the fig tree. Which is it? Can Christ be in more than one place at a time by the Spirit, or not? Of course He can, has, and will continue to do so. You don't have to convince me that He can be in more than one place at a time in the Spirit, you are the one it seemed, to be denying such.

When God is with someone in the Spirit, He is literally present with them, in that of course, He is Spirit. If or when He manifests in bodily form, it is of course of a spiritual body, not the natural body of fallen humanity. Accepting of course, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ during the incarnation, who took our natural sinful nature upon Himself. This that He might conquer sin in the flesh, and crucify sinful nature once and for all unto the salvation of all who will believe.  Now we may all pick up our crosses by faith, and follow Him. Praise His holy and undefiled name.

Through the Spirit, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ defied the laws of this fallen worlds nature many times over, including being in more than one place at a time. Which was accomplished by the Spirit of God of course. Denying the validity of the scriptures which point such out, does not make them go away. Or do you think Jesus was lying when He said, "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" ?

4WD - Yes, but only the Son took on the physical body of the human.  Neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit are ever depicted as being human or taking on the human likeness.

Even more nonsensical narrative, to pretend you are actually answering something.  No one ever said or suggested anything about the Father or Spirit taking upon themselves fallen humanity in body and nature. Though the scriptures do describe the Father I take it, with a human like form upon His throne, which I have already shared with you. Perhaps you didn't bother reading the scriptures I have been providing. We were made in His image, not He in ours.

4WD - That wasn't a spiritual body.  It was the physical body of Jesus Christ raised again to life.

Wrong again.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

4WD - And therein lies the basic problem; it is all your imagination.

The holy scriptures my imagination are not.

[4WD]

No, not the Holy Scriptures; just your imagination.  There are few besides NyawehNyoh that read more into the Scriptures than you Amo.  First, there is absolutely nothing in all of those passages you quoted that says anything about Jesus setting aside His divinity.  That you think there is most definitely comes out of your imagination. 

Second, you quoted 1 Corinthians 15 to prove that Jesus, when he was raised from the dead took on a "spiritual body".  It doesn't say that anywhere, again that comes from your imagination.  In fact, Jesus goes to great lengths to prove to His disciple, Thomas that it is indeed His raised physical body.  I am curious, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, or when all those others who are said to have been raised from the dead, were they raised to walk in "spiritual bodies"? 

And third, it is clear that you do not know and comprehend the difference between the Holy Spirit coming upon someone for the power of miracles such prophesying and speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit indwelling the one who has been sealed with the promise for the day of redemption.  And that is really sad.

[RB]

Why not?  That is the plain literal meaning of the word body.

Sorry, I did not finish earlier this morning but had quests that were leaving after breakfast and had to go and spend time with them.

Jarrod, at any point you know I'm not quite following you then please point this out, for I understand how easy it is to misunderstand folks especially in the light of disagreeing with them already. You said:

Why not?  That is the plain literal meaning of the word body.

Jarrod, now I do understand the meaning of "the body"~again, our disagreement is the church corporately speaking, is not the same as the flesh, and blood body of Jesus Christ which was his tabernacle he dwelled in that was the express image of His Father in thought, word, and deed and power. Our new man is the express image of Jesus Christ, yet, we also live in a body of SIN and DEATH that reminds us just how corrupt we are by nature; thus again it would be borderline of blasphemy to even think much less teach God is manifest in our bodies, by our deeds, words and thought and our meager power to the same degree as Christ per 1st Timothy 3:16.

Jesus is STILL the express image of the Godhead.  We as a body of believers ARE Jesus' body when we act IN CHRIST.

Jarrod, again Jesus' body and his spiritual body are not one and same, especially in light of still living in this body of sin and death which we all have and will until the resurrection.

You said when we "act IN CHRIST"~we all fall so short of living up to the Law of God which is the perfect standard that Christ lived in the days of his flesh.

Again, as I said, practically God/Christ is seen through us but far below Christ's life where men DID SEE GOD PERFECTLY when they saw Christ and heard him in deed, word, and thoughts.

God is literally present in the flesh - through OUR flesh.  But if you're saying that works a little differently than it did for Jesus during his 30-ish year earthly ministry, then yes it does.  He had one body with all the fulness of the Godhead.  For us, we are each but members of the body.  Individually, we do not have the fulness, but just a little part.  It is only together that we have the fulness.

I not saying he works "a little differently than it did for Jesus" Individually we DO NOT have an ounce of the Godhead's infinite attributes and corporately not an ounce more! This is foolish to even think it is so, and maybe even downright devilish if this is what you are saying.

We don't become an army of Jesus-es all wielding the full power of God Almighty.  We become hands or toes or ears or whatever bit is needed.

Well I agree this is so "practically speaking" , just not literally.....and if you agree, then where are we missing what you are trying to convey?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Where are we missing what you are trying to convey?

I don't think you missed it, you just rejected it.

You have denied the church any power whatsoever, by your own admission:

we DO NOT have an ounce of the Godhead's infinite attributes and corporately not an ounce more

Sounds a lot like...

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof

Basically, you've denied that God lives in us after the practical fashion, while affirming it only with words.

Jarrod

[RB]

I don't think you missed it, you just rejected it.

You have denied the church any power whatsoever, by your own admission:

Sounds a lot like...

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof

Basically, you've denied that God lives in us after the practical fashion, while affirming it only with words.

Jarrod

Pray to tell me WHICH attributes of God do you think we as believers have? I think you need to do a study on "Incommunicable" attributes of God ~which belong to God alone...here are just a few:

Eternal both ways!

Holiness
Holiness is God's perfection of character and without flaw and without sin but with complete goodness, justice, mercy, love, etc. (Psalm 71:22; Isaiah 6:3; 1st Peter 1:16).

Immutability
God's nature does not change in any way.  His essence has always been and will always be exactly the same (Psalm 90:2; Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8).

Infinite
God is without measure or limit in scope or duration.  There are no constraints upon him from outside of himself that would restrict him in his scope or duration (Genesis 21:33; Deuteronomy 33:27; Isaiah 40:28; Psalm 90:2).

Omnipotence
God is capable of performing anything he desires. (Psalm 33:9; Isaiah 40:28; 46:10).

Omnipresence
God is in all places and in all dimensions simultaneously.  Nothing in the universe exists outside the presence of God (Psalm 139:7-12; Jeremiah 23:24).

Omniscience
God has perfect, complete knowledge.  He never learns, nor does he forget.  He knows all things that exist and all things that could have existed.  God cannot grow in knowledge, understanding, or wisdom (Romans 16:27; Hebrews 4:13; 1 John 3:20).

Self-existence, Non-contingency
God is not dependent upon anything else for his existence.  He is uncaused–the infinite Being who has always existed (Psalm 90:2; 93:2; Hebrews 13:8; 1 Tim. 6:15; Revelation 1:8).

Self-sufficiency
God needs nothing outside of himself to maintain his existence; therefore, he does not need us to fill a void (Psalm 102:24–27).

Sovereignty
God is the supreme being who answers to no one and who has the absolute right to do with his creation as he desires (1 Timothy 6:15; Isaiah 46:10).

Spirit
God exists completely and sufficiently as an immaterial being–without physical characteristics (John 4:24; Luke 24:39).

Transcendence
God's transcendence is the product of the relationship between God's essence and creation. God transcends space and time in that he is not dependent on them nor affected by them (Psalm 139:7-10).

Uniqueness
God alone is God.  There is no one like him.  He is completely "other" than all things that exist (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-7).

"Communicable" attributes of God~can be possessed by people especially so his own people~there's a list of these that we could provide later.

[Amo]

No, not the Holy Scriptures; just your imagination.  There are few besides NyawehNyoh that read more into the Scriptures than you Amo.  First, there is absolutely nothing in all of those passages you quoted that says anything about Jesus setting aside His divinity.  That you think there is most definitely comes out of your imagination. 

Second, you quoted 1 Corinthians 15 to prove that Jesus, when he was raised from the dead took on a "spiritual body".  It doesn't say that anywhere, again that comes from your imagination.  In fact, Jesus goes to great lengths to prove to His disciple, Thomas that it is indeed His raised physical body.  I am curious, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, or when all those others who are said to have been raised from the dead, were they raised to walk in "spiritual bodies"? 

And third, it is clear that you do not know and comprehend the difference between the Holy Spirit coming upon someone for the power of miracles such prophesying and speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit indwelling the one who has been sealed with the promise for the day of redemption.  And that is really sad.

Yes, I know that you consider all scripture which you do not agree with or want to accept the logical conclusion of, to be imagination. We have gone through this process concerning the creation and flood accounts many times over.

Those raised by Jesus while here on earth, who died yet again, were most obviously not raised in their yet future eternal bodies. Jesus was raised in that spiritual body which will not ever die again, as the saints will be also by His power at the appointed time. This as the apostle Paul, whose teachings you reject with your own, clearly stated in the scriptures. Observe -

Act 13:34  And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Our Lord and Savior was raised, no more to return to corruption, as all natural bodies do after death, and as those Christ raised for God's glory during His earthly ministry did also when they died again.

Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

He was raised unto eternal life, death having no more dominion over Him. Paul clearly states ad teaches when this will take place for all the rest humanity.

1Co 15:20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The saved overcome death in Christ at the resurrection, which is at His return, which is when they receive their spiritual bodies which are immortal. This as Paul confirms later in the same chapter.

1Co 15:35  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Why would you imagine 4WD, that Christ our Lord who was and is the firstfruits of those who will be raised incorruptable, glorified, powerful, and with spiritual bodies when He returns, was Himself raised in the corruption, dishonor, and weakness of our present natural bodies? Surely this can be nothing but your imagination, considering the testimony of Scripture already shared, and the complete lack of any scriptural testimony backing up what you suggest. Let us continue Paul's testimony though.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.   

Is Christ Jesus not now at the right hand of the Father in heaven? Was He not raised from the dead and not only gone into heaven but given a name exalted above every other (Php 2:9)? Yes He was and is. How do you imagine then, that a flesh and blood body has inherited these things, rather than the incorruptable, immortal spiritual body of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Is it not because you refuse the simple biblically established truth that there is a natural body susceptible to corruption and death, and that there is a spiritual body susceptible to neither? Why do you imagine such things in direct opposition to the testimony of holy scripture? Why do you imagine that spiritual beings can have no physical qualities when scripture demonstrates over and over again that they can and do?

Now concerning your nonsensical statement to the effect that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did not set aside His divinity for our salvation, why do you continue in such vain imaginings? Denying the most obvious and simplistic truths stated in scripture to defend the same.

When One Who is God, decides to become one with fallen humanity and as such, does not only not seek to be equal with God but becomes the servant of the same, such a One has set aside their divinity. That is to say, they have most obviously stepped down from the very highest position they previously occupied by natural right. God choosing to be not only the servant of the fallen, but also ridiculed, abused, tortured, spat upon, and then killed by them when He could easily destroy them at any time or call upon others to do so, is most certainly the ultimate example of one stepping down from or sacrificing their real position. Why will you imagine otherwise against such obvious, blaring, blatant truth? Perhaps a few different versions and other scriptures to the same effect, can correct your seeming deficient understanding.

Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. (NASB)

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in the fashion of a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death—even the death of the cross. (21 C KJV)

Php 2:5 Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] 6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, 7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and [e]rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. 8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! (AMP)

Php 2:5 Let your attitude toward one another be governed by your being in union with the Messiah Yeshua: 6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force. 7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are. And when he appeared as a human being, 8 he humbled himself still more by becoming obedient even to death — death on a stake as a criminal! (CJB)

Php 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross! (NIV)

Exactly what part of the difference between what Jesus became for our salvation, and what being God actually is, do you not understand or comprehend? Why do you imagine that Jesus did not set aside or sacrifice His divinity for humanities salvation? Do we need to examine more scripture?

Joh 17:1  These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Did He not sacrifice the glory He had with the Father before this world, when He came to this world as one of us? Yes He did.

Joh 10:17  Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Is not God immortal? Yes He is. Did not Jesus lay aside His immortality for humanity in dying the death we deserve, that we might have life and have it more abundantly? Yes He did. Is this not sacrificing divinity, which cannot die? Yes it is. Shall we go on and on, with more and more scripture? Please brother, put aside your vain imaginings, and accept the plain obvious truths of sacred scripture in their place.

Heb 2:5  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Please brother, do accept the infinite sacrifice our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has made for you and I and all of humanity.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Pray to tell me WHICH attributes of God do you think we as believers have? I think you need to do a study on "Incommunicable" attributes of God ~which belong to God alone...here are just a few:

Eternal both ways!

Holiness
Holiness is God's perfection of character and without flaw and without sin but with complete goodness, justice, mercy, love, etc. (Psalm 71:22; Isaiah 6:3; 1st Peter 1:16).

Immutability
God's nature does not change in any way.  His essence has always been and will always be exactly the same (Psalm 90:2; Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8).

Infinite
God is without measure or limit in scope or duration.  There are no constraints upon him from outside of himself that would restrict him in his scope or duration (Genesis 21:33; Deuteronomy 33:27; Isaiah 40:28; Psalm 90:2).

Omnipotence
God is capable of performing anything he desires. (Psalm 33:9; Isaiah 40:28; 46:10).

Omnipresence
God is in all places and in all dimensions simultaneously.  Nothing in the universe exists outside the presence of God (Psalm 139:7-12; Jeremiah 23:24).

Omniscience
God has perfect, complete knowledge.  He never learns, nor does he forget.  He knows all things that exist and all things that could have existed.  God cannot grow in knowledge, understanding, or wisdom (Romans 16:27; Hebrews 4:13; 1 John 3:20).

Self-existence, Non-contingency
God is not dependent upon anything else for his existence.  He is uncaused–the infinite Being who has always existed (Psalm 90:2; 93:2; Hebrews 13:8; 1 Tim. 6:15; Revelation 1:8).

Self-sufficiency
God needs nothing outside of himself to maintain his existence; therefore, he does not need us to fill a void (Psalm 102:24–27).

Sovereignty
God is the supreme being who answers to no one and who has the absolute right to do with his creation as he desires (1 Timothy 6:15; Isaiah 46:10).

Spirit
God exists completely and sufficiently as an immaterial being–without physical characteristics (John 4:24; Luke 24:39).

Transcendence
God's transcendence is the product of the relationship between God's essence and creation. God transcends space and time in that he is not dependent on them nor affected by them (Psalm 139:7-10).

Uniqueness
God alone is God.  There is no one like him.  He is completely "other" than all things that exist (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-7).

"Communicable" attributes of God~can be possessed by people especially so his own people~there's a list of these that we could provide later.

All completely irrelevant.

Don't need omniscience to serve hot soup, or mend a fence.

[Bemark]

What is eternal torture.?

We have eternal life?

It's a life not being with him. We will be with the one who has chosen us . Then we will see his goodness.

[NyawehNyoh]

.
Jesus' mom had a soul, a spirit, and a heart. (Luke 1:46-47 and Luke 2:19 & 51)

If true that people's souls go to Hell, then what becomes of their spirits and hearts?
_

[Choir Loft]

Let us consider this subject, proofs for this doctrine and proofs against this doctrine.

Many teach there is a literal burning hellfire now where the wicked go at the death of their bodies. You would think such people who believe this doctrine would have many scriptures supporting them, and it would be easy to defend this doctrine of endless suffering for the wicked. The majority of professing Christians I believe hold to this doctrine, a doctrine that I was taught when I first came to Christ, and just assumed it was so, only later I had trouble finding any support for such a doctrine.

Actually, it was taught as one of the cardinal truths by which you measure a person's faith.

Let me get right to this study~by giving many infallible poofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, never to end, other than to be cast into the lake of fire, which the Holy Spirit tells us IS the SECOND DEATH.

1.  The Scriptures hold forth no such thing, as will be shown; we ought not to presume above that which is written; which many do~ revealed things belong to us.It will soon be evident the NT and OT are silent about such as place as a literal burning hellfire, now and will be hereafter for eternity according to many folks faith.

2.  The doctrine of a punishment never to end is contrary to the word of God, because it maintains that the wicked shall have eternal life. If man was to live forever, why was the flaming sword set to keep the way of the tree of life? Genesis. 3:24~ Lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of life, and live forever. No eternal life came by the first Adam: eternal life came by Jesus Christ, who is the tree of life, eternal life promised and given by Jesus Christ: Eternal life by Jesus Christ, Romans 5:21; and, he that eateth of this bread shall live forever, John 6:58. Because I live, ye shall live also, John 14:19. God sent his Son, that we might live through him, 1st John 4:9. Only believers have eternal life: he that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, John 3:36. Whosoever believeth shall not perish, but have everlasting life, John 3:14-15. I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, John 10:28. The wicked abide not forever, 1st John 2:17. If ye live after the flesh ye shall die, Romans 8:13. Him will God destroy,  1st Corinthians 3:17. The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, 1st Corinthians 1:18; 2nd Thess 2:10. Utterly perish, 2nd Peter 2:12; Luke 13:3. To their own destruction, 2nd Peter 3:16. Abideth in death, Romans 6:21,23; 1st John 3:14. They shall be destroyed forever, Psalm 92:7.

If they perish and not have eternal life, then they cannot live forever. God said, if thou eatest, thou shalt surely die, Genesis 2:17; but the serpent said, ye shall not die, Genesis 3:4. So the serpent, which is the devil, hath taught men to say as the serpent said, Now they have eaten they shall not die, but shall live forever, and never die; which is to say, God is the liar, and that which the devil said is truth. The word saith, him will God destroy, Matthew 21:41; 1st Corinthians 3:17; 6:13. They shall be destroyed, 2nd Peter 2:12. Swift destruction, their end is destruction, 2nd Peter 2:1. Their opinion saith, they shall never be destroyed, die, nor end, which is no destruction. The word saith, The last enemy is death, 1st Corinthians 15:26. Their opinion saith, that is not the last; there is one after it, which is much worse, and will never end. It saith, God's anger is forever, he will never turn from it: contrary to Jeremiah 3:12; Psalm 50:5; 89:5; 78:38. False prophets said...... they shall suffer so long as God is God; if so, then they have eternal life, (though in misery,) whereas the Scripture doth not declare eternal life to be for all men, John 6:45-47. Promised to us eternal life, 1st John 2:17,25. I give unto them eternal life, to as many as thou hast given me, John 17:2-3. In hope of eternal life, Titus 1:2. As many as were ordained to eternal life believed, Acts 13:48. They that have done good unto the resurrection of life, John 5:29. If it be granted that the wicked have not eternal life, as hath been proved, it will follow that they cannot suffer forever, so long as God is God; and therefore all their building of punishment never to end falls: grant the first, and the latter must needs to follow.

If Adam had not sinned, he should have died; as appears from the following considerations~

He had, in his creation, a natural body, 1st Corinthians 15:44: that which is natural is not eternal, ver. 46, he was of the earth, earthly, ver. 47-48, therefore mortal and corruptible, ver. 53-54.

Man in his first being was corporal and visible to be seen; things seen are not eternal. Some believe if Adam had stood, he could not have conveyed to us a body immortal, if God had given Adam an immortal and unchangeable nature, he had created a god, and not a man. Augustine, in his Book of Confessions, saith, because the Lord created man of nothing, therefore he left in man a possibility to return to nothing, if he obeyed not the will of his Maker.

Just getting started~RB

This is a very lengthy and obtuse explanation of Roman Catholic/pagan myths of hell.   

The Bible nowhere states the existence of hell nor of God's desire to exact eternal torment from those who SIN during life.

Scriptural quotations justifying this bogus dogma are meaningless because they are based upon myth, misquotes of scripture and misunderstanding deliberately forced upon Christendom by RCC fear-mongering and spiritual bribery.

There is no hell.  There is only empty death for the SINNER.
There is no eternal spark or immortal spirit in man.  Only God has immortal life.  When man dies he dies like any dog or garden weed. (*)

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light" - 1 Tim 6:16

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

"My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a

The entire Tanakh (OT)speaks only vaguely of the afterlife.  It chooses to refer to Sheol as the place of the dead and doesn't expand upon the idea of death much more than to state its finality, its departure from all things known and knowable and a distant hope of resurrection from that condition.  It doesn't mention anything about divine torture or bribery (get-out-of-hell-free card).

The New Testament, originally translated from Hebrew and Greek by the Roman Catholic church into Latin (the Vulgate), employs several pagan references and misplaced Hebrew references to suggest a place of torment.  For example:

Hades was the name of the Greek god of the underworld, the eldest son of Cronus and Rhea.  Hades was a person NOT a place as is commonly misunderstood.

Hell is derived from the Old English word "hel" meaning 'the place of the dead'.  The same word is also used in Norse mythology.  In other pagan myths its also called Fengdu (Chinese), Elysium (Greek), Kolob (Mormons) and Osiris (Egyptian) among others.  In none of these pagan references is torture implied.  It is entirely a fiction invented by the RCC fear mongers.

Gehenna is a Hebrew word referencing the city dump outside Jerusalem.  As with most public dumps, the stinking place was always burning or kept burning so as to consume the garbage thrown into it.  The fire burned always, but the stuff tossed into it was consumed completely never again to be used by those who discarded it.  Jesus alluded to it as both the place where SINNERS were destroyed and the destination of people who were 'taken' (as misunderstood by the rapture myth Luke 17:34-37).  If you (falsely) believe in hell and rapture, then that's where you're going.  I reject the idea, but many pervert it so as to sell their idea of religion.

Revelation speaks of the Second Death as the destiny of those who have rejected God's LAW and His generous gift of redemption during their lives.  The Second Death is described as a lake of fire which burns continually.  That which is consigned to it is destroyed completely and utterly in a moment.  Nothing embraced by fire EVER continues to exist.  This is why fire and death are used as descriptions of the destiny of SINNERS.   They are completely and utterly deleted. 

In order to promote the myth of eternal torture, interpretations MUST pervert the meaning of simple words such as death and fire.  Both words suggest utter complete final destruction without any possibility of future restoration - forever, as it were.

God kills.  God does not torture.

Interpretations of Biblical passages suggesting Jesus is the dungeon master of a subterranean torture chamber are entirely false.   They are also out of character of the Lord of Hosts described in the Bible.   They do, however, describe the lust of many men who enjoy the idea of causing pain to others.  They have their reward.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) For this reason the gospel is called the Good News.  The Good News for mankind is that God has chosen to gift His immortal life to those who will accept Him and His lordship in their hearts and lives.  All humans die like dogs EXCEPT those who are granted immortal life in Jesus Christ.  This is perhaps the greatest miracle since creation itself, yet it is the most misunderstood of all.

[Choir Loft]

.
Jesus' mom had a soul, a spirit, and a heart. (Luke 1:46-47 and Luke 2:19 & 51)

If true that people's souls go to Hell, then what becomes of their spirits and hearts?
_

You are quoting Greek philosophy here NOT the Bible.  Your scripture references describe the actions of LIVING persons, not dead ones.

Christian theologians have adopted Greek philosophy BECAUSE they rejected Hebrew LAW, which makes no such assumption of an eternal spark in man.

A man's body, including the mush in his skull, is disposed of upon physical death.   The Bible speaks of the resurrection of the complete entity of man, not the existence of bits and pieces in some ethereal condition above and beyond the clouds.

Man dies in one piece and is resurrected in one piece as demonstrated at least three times during Jesus' ministry on earth.  The Bible makes no other reference to restoration of life other than this.

There is no such thing as an eternal spark in man.   Humans die like any dog or garden weed.   That's it and that's all - ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.   Anything else is myth and Hollywood.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

Church folk are inebriated by secular myth and rumor and do not seriously consider God's Word.   God destroys.  God does not torture.  The destiny of the unregenerate man is DEATH - termination of everything considered to be part of the individual.  In order to support secular myth one must pervert the meaning of common words; death and fire.   Both words carry the connotation of ultimate final destruction without possibility of renewal in any way shape or form.

On the other hand,  the RCC has promoted fear mongering stories about eternal torture WHICH CAN BE SHORTENED BY CONTRIBUTION$ TO THE LOCAL PRIEST.  Nowhere in these tales is the blood of Christ considered.  The Bible states Jesus' blood is the ONLY remedy for SIN and penalty of death. 

There is no eternal torture and there is no Biblical mechanism for bribing one's way out of it - as is true in Catholicism, which has been accepted by post-reformation protestants.

It's all about the money, folks.   Can one really bribe God?  NO.

None of the myths of the afterlife consider the blood of Christ, which contradicts RCC dogma, pagan myths and Hollywood blockbusters.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[NyawehNyoh]

.
Just a word of caution.

According to Matt 12:42, Luke 11:31, John 1:1-14, and Col 2:3; Christ trumps Solomon, so beware of using proof texts from Ecclesiastes to impair, moderate, and/or water down Christ's teachings related to the afterlife.

In addition: Christ is the voice of God (John 3:34, John 8:26, John 8:28, John 12:49, John 14:24) whereas there is not the slightest textual evidence in the book of Ecclesiastes that Solomon was anybody's voice but his own when he wrote it

To my knowledge, Solomon had never seen the afterlife for himself, viz: he wasn't an expert witness; whereas Christ had seen the afterlife for himself and knew what he was talking about.

• John 3:31-32 . . He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. What He has seen and heard, of that he bears witness.

Christ is also highly recommended, whereas to my knowledge, Solomon isn't.

• Matt 17:5 . . This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.

So then, when encountering remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes that are out of step with Christ's teachings in the New Testament; my unsolicited spiritual counseling is to ignore Solomon and go with the wisdom of "my Son".

• John 8:12 . . I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.
_

[Choir Loft]

Traditional interpretation of the dogma of HELL rests firmly on Egyptian myths of the underworld and Roman Catholic adaptation into Christian doctrine.  Both are FALSE.

The Bible makes no contextual assertion of the eternal torment of souls.

The Bible makes no contextual assertion that man has an eternal 'spark' or some quality that survives physical death.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

The root of the myth of eternal misery rests in the false notion that humanity possesses some quality that survives physical death.  The Bible definitely opposes this assumption.  If there is no eternal spark, then there can be no everlasting punishment.

That the dead are raised at some future point for judgment by God is not linked to the pagan belief of everlasting punishment.   In order to adapt pagan ideology into Christian doctrine one has to pervert words and twist their meanings into something neither God nor man intended.  Here are a few examples:

Death - The accepted definition of death in all languages and all cultures of man is the absolute complete cessation of life.  The Bible certifies this as well.
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a

Fire - The accepted definition of fire in all language and all cultures of man is that it destroys that which is thrown into it.  The Bible certifies this reality.
When they are destroyed their destruction will be total - 2 Peter 2:12b

Death is the absolute end of life. Eternal torment implies a form of life albeit an unpleasant one.  The Bible does NOT certify life beyond the grave at all.
Fire is the ultimate destroyer.  Though the fires of the city dump burn forever that which is thrown into it does not. 

Translations of the Bible reflect the influence, but NOT acceptance of pagan terms from a very early time.   During the inter-testamental period, the 400 year period between Malachi & Matthew, Greek conquest and occupation of ancient Israel resulted in familiarity of Jewish thought with Greek myths.  Some of this familiarity can be seen in Greek text of the New Testament.  It does not imply Jewish acceptance of pagan myth, but only familiarity with the terms.  Biblical references to these pagan terms are allegorical for the purpose of illustrating a point.  Here are a few that have been translated into modern English Biblical text:

Hades - Son of Cronos and Rhea this mythical king of the dead is a person, not a place .  The error is ignored in modern church dogma.
Hell -  Cultural root for this word derives from the old English and Viking word "hel" which was their term for the underworld.  It wasn't a place of torment.
Gehenna - A garbage dump outside the walls of ancient Jerusalem.  City refuse was burned to ashes or consumed by worms.  Nothing remained of the rubbish.
Sheol - Hebrew word for the grave, nothing more and nothing less.  Sheol was the place where dead people were buried.  There was no other contextual meaning.

Thus we see the contextual Biblical teaching that when a human dies it dies like any dog or garden weed.  There is no eternal spark in man that survives physical death. 

Only God is immortal. (1 Tim 6:16)

The glory of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the revolutionary concept of the gospel that excited the ancient world, is that God has chosen to bestow upon man that portion of His nature which is immortal. 

If a man dies will he live again? - Job 14:14

He will, IF a man accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.  (1 John 5:11)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Rella]

Traditional interpretation of the dogma of HELL rests firmly on Egyptian myths of the underworld and Roman Catholic adaptation into Christian doctrine.  Both are FALSE.

The Bible makes no contextual assertion of the eternal torment of souls.

The Bible makes no contextual assertion that man has an eternal 'spark' or some quality that survives physical death.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

The root of the myth of eternal misery rests in the false notion that humanity possesses some quality that survives physical death.  The Bible definitely opposes this assumption.  If there is no eternal spark, then there can be no everlasting punishment.

That the dead are raised at some future point for judgment by God is not linked to the pagan belief of everlasting punishment.   In order to adapt pagan ideology into Christian doctrine one has to pervert words and twist their meanings into something neither God nor man intended.  Here are a few examples:

Death - The accepted definition of death in all languages and all cultures of man is the absolute complete cessation of life.  The Bible certifies this as well.
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a

Fire - The accepted definition of fire in all language and all cultures of man is that it destroys that which is thrown into it.  The Bible certifies this reality.
When they are destroyed their destruction will be total - 2 Peter 2:12b

Death is the absolute end of life. Eternal torment implies a form of life albeit an unpleasant one.  The Bible does NOT certify life beyond the grave at all.
Fire is the ultimate destroyer.  Though the fires of the city dump burn forever that which is thrown into it does not. 

Translations of the Bible reflect the influence, but NOT acceptance of pagan terms from a very early time.   During the inter-testamental period, the 400 year period between Malachi & Matthew, Greek conquest and occupation of ancient Israel resulted in familiarity of Jewish thought with Greek myths.  Some of this familiarity can be seen in Greek text of the New Testament.  It does not imply Jewish acceptance of pagan myth, but only familiarity with the terms.  Biblical references to these pagan terms are allegorical for the purpose of illustrating a point.  Here are a few that have been translated into modern English Biblical text:

Hades - Son of Cronos and Rhea this mythical king of the dead is a person, not a place .  The error is ignored in modern church dogma.
Hell -  Cultural root for this word derives from the old English and Viking word "hel" which was their term for the underworld.  It wasn't a place of torment.
Gehenna - A garbage dump outside the walls of ancient Jerusalem.  City refuse was burned to ashes or consumed by worms.  Nothing remained of the rubbish.
Sheol - Hebrew word for the grave, nothing more and nothing less.  Sheol was the place where dead people were buried.  There was no other contextual meaning.

Thus we see the contextual Biblical teaching that when a human dies it dies like any dog or garden weed.  There is no eternal spark in man that survives physical death. 

Only God is immortal. (1 Tim 6:16)

The glory of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the revolutionary concept of the gospel that excited the ancient world, is that God has chosen to bestow upon man that portion of His nature which is immortal. 

If a man dies will he live again? - Job 14:14

He will, IF a man accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.  (1 John 5:11)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

"So a man dies and that is that? (Ecclesiastes 3:19)"

No punishments nor rewards ?

Is that necessarily a bad thing?

"If a man dies will he live again? - Job 14:14

He will, IF a man accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.  (1 John 5:11)"

I once knew one who did believe this, but he just wants to cease when he dies and asked how that could happen believing in Jesus.

[Choir Loft]

Q: How can a loving God send people to hell?
A: HE doesn't.  At the end of physical life they just DIE.  There is no eternal torment.

According to the Bible, that's it and that's all.

quote author=Rella

"So a man dies and that is that? (Ecclesiastes 3:19)"

No punishments nor rewards ?

Is that necessarily a bad thing?

It's a bad thing if YOU are the one who dies.  Have you ever talked to a person on their death bed who rejected Christ all their life?  It's not a happy experience, believe me.

"If a man dies will he live again? - Job 14:14

He will, IF a man accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.  (1 John 5:11)"

I once knew one who did believe this, but he just wants to cease when he dies and asked how that could happen believing in Jesus. - Rella

Obviously the fellow in question DID NOT know Jesus in a personal way and had NOT surrendered himself to the will of Almighty God. 
The judgment comes out of his own mouth. 
The testimony that he doesn't know Christ is obvious in his own words. 
Nobody else needs to judge his words because he's already done so himself.
(Acts 13:46b)

If your fellow had truly surrendered to Christ and come under Christ's jurisdiction and guidance, he'd be convinced of the truth that Jesus can be with us and make life worth living - even if the circumstances suck.  Many are those who've suffered greatly for their faith and who've learned knowing Christ was the greatest thing in life.

Many are those who don't know what they're talking about and only intend to scoff at the truth of God's Holy Word.

But we are following a rabbit trail here that leads nowhere..............

The root argument supporting eternal torment is the FALSE idea that humans possess an eternal spark.  According to pagan myth, widely accepted by both secular society and misinformed church folks, some portion of a human can survive physical death.  The idea of an eternal spark in man must be dealt with when JUSTICE is considered.

If JUSTICE be employed following death, or so the story goes, a good man will receive reward and a bad man will receive punishment.  This idea has several loopholes not least of which is that it's entirely unBiblical. 

Most people, even bad ones, are convinced they aren't really THAT bad.  Thus most everyone assumes they'll ride a cloud into heaven regardless of the SINs they were guilty of during life.  The Bible says they just DIE like any dog or insect. 

The Bible says ONLY GOD has immortal life. (1 Tim 6:16)  That's the sum total of the Bible's point of view.

Jesus Christ came along two thousand years ago and answered the prophetic question.  Yes, a man CAN live again.  Jesus demonstrated the possibility on several occasions including His own existence on this planet following a brutal public execution.  Jesus lived again BECAUSE HE IS GOD.  But there's a caveat to the possibility of immortal life.

One MUST REPENT unto Almighty God and ASK forgiveness for SINs.  The request must be sincere and from the bone - from the very depths of heart & mind.

IF God deems the request valid, THEN Christ gives of His life to the one who submits to His lordship.  This is called the Second Birth and results in immortal life because Jesus comes to live with and in the one who asks for it.

Those who are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ will live as long as He does.
Those that aren't redeemed simply cease to exist - and that's most people if Jesus is to be believed. (Matt 7:14)   

There is no punishment greater than irreversible death.  God cannot be bribed as some believe.  Once dead the deed is done for all time. Those who die apart from Christ are deleted - permanently and without recourse to parole or RCC bribery. 

God kills.  God does not torment as men love to do.   Jesus Christ does not manage a torture chamber in the bowels of the earth.

God will NOT allow SIN to continue.   Either a man will deny it during his brief life on earth or God will eliminate the SINNER at death.

Tick Tock ... Tick Tock ... Tick Tock ... Tick Tock

The clock is running and every minute it counts less time until the end of life on earth.   The TIME to repent is NOW.

There is no hell, but irreversible death is certain and as long as any forever one can imagine.

Shall we judge ourselves UNWORTHY of eternal life or shall we surrender to He who can give it to us?

Tick Tock ... Tick

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...   

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Ecclesiastes 3:19

::deepsigh::

[Choir Loft]

::deepsigh::

The false doctrine of hell, eternal torment, is based upon the false unBiblical notion that man possesses an eternal spark.

Man does NOT possess an eternal immortal soul.

Therefore any assertion of an afterlife is as false as an assumption of perpetual misery.  If there is no immortal soul, then there can be no eternal torment.

Only God is immortal.

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light" - 1 Tim 6:16

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;" - Genesis 6:3a

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

When they are destroyed their destruction will be total - 2 Peter 2:12b

The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:4

Any conversation about eternal torment is mute simply because the Bible makes no claim at all that man will survive physical death.

When Jesus Christ demonstrated His ability to raise the dead and to step beyond the grave Himself, He underlined the GOOD NEWS that God had chosen to give of His eternal life to those, and those only, who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.  Being thus embued with the life of God, such persons are able to live as long as Jesus does...... 

Only the blessed are granted eternal life. 

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[NyawehNyoh]

.

If a man dies will he live again? - Job 14:14

Back in the ancient world; men like Job were attuned to nature. In point of fact, Job was a very successful rancher; a guy who made his living working outdoors.

Every year he watched things die in the Fall and come back in the Spring. If only human life were like that; but alas, when people die they typically don't regenerate like the new leaves on a dormant maple tree.
_

[NyawehNyoh]

.
If there is one good thing that can be said about the netherworld: it's the great equalizer. Political bullies like Kim Jong-Un, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Xi Jinping, Fidel Castro, Muammar Gaddafi, and Saddam Hussein, are powerless down below; they're just more nondescript skulls in the gene pool.

• Isa 14:9-10 . . Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come. It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth. It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. They will all respond and say to you: Even you have been made weak as we. You have become like us.
_

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

The false doctrine of hell, eternal torment, is based upon the false unBiblical notion that man possesses an eternal spark.

Man does NOT possess an eternal immortal soul.

Therefore any assertion of an afterlife is as false as an assumption of perpetual misery.  If there is no immortal soul, then there can be no eternal torment.

Only God is immortal.

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light" - 1 Tim 6:16

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;" - Genesis 6:3a

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

When they are destroyed their destruction will be total - 2 Peter 2:12b

The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:4

Any conversation about eternal torment is mute simply because the Bible makes no claim at all that man will survive physical death.

When Jesus Christ demonstrated His ability to raise the dead and to step beyond the grave Himself, He underlined the GOOD NEWS that God had chosen to give of His eternal life to those, and those only, who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.  Being thus embued with the life of God, such persons are able to live as long as Jesus does...... 

Only the blessed are granted eternal life. 

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Clarify for me, are you saying that the wicked are annihilated, or that there is no eternal life for anybody, including the righteous?

For myself, I am of the opinion that the wicked dead are annihilated (not tortured eternally).  But I hold that as an educated opinion, and I'm not dogmatic about it.

[Rella]

The false doctrine of hell, eternal torment, is based upon the false unBiblical notion that man possesses an eternal spark.

Man does NOT possess an eternal immortal soul.

Therefore any assertion of an afterlife is as false as an assumption of perpetual misery.  If there is no immortal soul, then there can be no eternal torment.

Only God is immortal.  

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light" - 1 Tim 6:16

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;" - Genesis 6:3a

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. - Ecclesiastes 3:19

When they are destroyed their destruction will be total - 2 Peter 2:12b

The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:4

Any conversation about eternal torment is mute simply because the Bible makes no claim at all that man will survive physical death.

When Jesus Christ demonstrated His ability to raise the dead and to step beyond the grave Himself, He underlined the GOOD NEWS that God had chosen to give of His eternal life to those, and those only, who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.  Being thus embued with the life of God, such persons are able to live as long as Jesus does...... 

Only the blessed are granted eternal life. 

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Then the bible lies. It IS that simple.

Gen 35:18 18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

The soul that sins shall die. - Ezekiel 18:4

[/size]

pretty well sums up Mathew "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Mathew 10:28

[DiscipleDave]

As a prophet of God i will tell you what i know.

Hell is not yet created. It will be sometime just before the 7th Trumpet Sounding. When Jesus Arrives on Earth at the 7th Trumpet sounding the Antichrist and the Beast are the first two to be cast into Hell Fire.
Nobody else is cast into that Hell Fire until AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, which is specifically for those who are going to be cast into Hell Fire based on the Judgments given on THAT DAY.

If you care to hear a lot more detail on this topic i made some videos about them. Please note i am not trying to promote my videos, only there is a lot more information on them, then i can type here:

Does Hell Exist Today: https://youtu.be/ALTjSD1-sRg

Is Hell created for punishment: https://youtu.be/wtK6pJ2lErc

[DaveW]

As a prophet of God i will tell you what i know.

Hell is not yet created. It will be sometime just before the 7th Trumpet Sounding. When Jesus Arrives on Earth at the 7th Trumpet sounding the Antichrist and the Beast are the first two to be cast into Hell Fire.
Nobody else is cast into that Hell Fire until AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, which is specifically for those who are going to be cast into Hell Fire based on the Judgments given on THAT DAY.

Who recognizes and proclaims you a prophet?

Your post makes no sense, since heaven, hell, and the rest of eternity exist outside our time frame.  "Not yet created" is meaningless.

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

As a prophet of God i will tell you what i know.

Hell is not yet created. It will be sometime just before the 7th Trumpet Sounding. When Jesus Arrives on Earth at the 7th Trumpet sounding the Antichrist and the Beast are the first two to be cast into Hell Fire.
Nobody else is cast into that Hell Fire until AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, which is specifically for those who are going to be cast into Hell Fire based on the Judgments given on THAT DAY.

Who recognizes and proclaims you a prophet?

God does. That is what He made me.

Your post makes no sense

,

What part would you like me to explain to you more perfectly?

Your post makes no sense since heaven, hell, and the rest of eternity exist outside our time frame.

Outside of our time frame? Where does this doctrine come from? i assure you, it is NOT from Scriptures, but is what humans teach, what humans believe, and it seems NOW you are teaching as a FACT. You do error, Time is linear.

"Not yet created" is meaningless.

Not if Time is linear, which it most certainly is.

[DaveW]

I asked:  Who recognizes and proclaims you a prophet?

God does. That is what He made me.

Funny - since God speaks to us and so far no one else has heard Him say that.

I stated:  Your post makes no sense since heaven, hell, and the rest of eternity exist outside our time frame.

What part would you like me to explain to you more perfectly?

Outside of our time frame? Where does this doctrine come from? i assure you, it is NOT from Scriptures, but is what humans teach, what humans believe, and it seems NOW you are teaching as a FACT. You do error, Time is linear.

Actually it DOES come from Scripture, where God is described as seeing the End from the Beginning. There are many places where that is either stated or implied.  In fact, Jewish sages of old taught the same thing. FROM SCRIPTURE.

In fact, the book of Revelation shows several different scenarios which have a start and end point but cannot otherwise be reconciled to each other.  That only works if the viewpoint is outside of time.

Not if Time is linear, which it most certainly is.

And you find that in Scripture?  I will answer that: no.  It is a biased viewpoint.

[DiscipleDave]

DaveW asked: 

Who recognizes and proclaims you a prophet?

DiscipleDave replied

God does. That is what He made me.

DaveW said Funny -

since God speaks to us and so far no one else has heard Him say that.

and that effects me how?

DaveW stated: 

Your post makes no sense since heaven, hell, and the rest of eternity exist outside our time frame.

DiscipleDave said

What part would you like me to explain to you more perfectly?

Outside of our time frame? Where does this doctrine come from? i assure you, it is NOT from Scriptures, but is what humans teach, what humans believe, and it seems NOW you are teaching as a FACT. You do error, Time is linear.

DaveW replied

Actually it DOES come from Scripture, where God is described as seeing the End from the Beginning.

You do error thinking it teaches that is what He SEES. it is NOT. It is what He knows, that is correct. For example, i get in my car to go to the Store. i don't see the future where i am at the Store, however i can KNOW that i will be at the store in the future.

God KNOWS what will be in the Future, NOT because He sees it, but because what He says will happen, He makes happen. If God says today. Next week a flood will destroy hawaii. He does not say that because he foresaw that in the future, He says it because He will make it happen in a week.

God did NOT SEE the future and SEE the the Tribulation Period unfold. God will make happen what He says will happen during the Tribulation period. He did not see a mountain being cast into the sea, and therefore wrote it in His Word. God will make it happen because it is written in His Word that is what He is going to do.

You do error thinking God is outside of Time, He is not. Time is linear. One moment after the next moment. The Scriptures you refer to to back up your claim about God being outside of time has NOTHING to do with what God SEES, as you are suggesting that it does.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 

i can declare that at the end of this day, i will be in my bed. i did not see myself in bed, i just know i will be there and able to declare it. God if He declares something to be, He will make it so.

God did not see the antichrist in the future. But God KNOWS he will be, because it is a part of His plan.

DaveW said

There are many places where that is either stated or implied.

The problem is you are not understanding the differences between KNOWING something is going to happen in the future, verses SEEING it actually happen in the Future while in the present.

DaveW says

In fact, Jewish sages of old taught the same thing. FROM SCRIPTURE.

And that is important how?

DaveW says

In fact, the book of Revelation shows several different scenarios which have a start and end point but cannot otherwise be reconciled to each other.  That only works if the viewpoint is outside of time.

Let me try to explain this to you better. Say there is a boxing match set up. Bob and Tom to fight. Now Bob is my fighter, i own his contract, and i told him to take a dive in the third round, and that Bob would be paid a million dollars to do so. i bet on Tom to win the match, and put 10 million dollars on it. This is Monday that i set all this up. Tuesday the match happens, Bobs takes a dive, and i just won over 10 million dollars. Tell me, on Monday when i set all this up and KNEW who was going to win the match, did i see the future and KNOW who was going to win, or did i make the future exactly as I WANTED IT to be. Monday i knew who was going to win the match, because i MADE it the way I wanted it to go. i did not jump into the future and SEE the outcome, i merely KNEW what the outcome was going to be, and therefore i could have on Monday foretold what was going to happen on Tuesday. Do you understand?

Everything God said is going to happen in the future, He did NOT SEE IT, He is going to make it happen exactly as He said it is going to happen. Time is linear, even for God.

DiscipleDave said

Not if Time is linear, which it most certainly is.

DaveW replied

And you find that in Scripture?  I will answer that: no.  It is a biased viewpoint.

lol. Time is linear, PROVEN throughout all Scriptures, one thing happened then something else happened after that, LINEAR. there is ZERO evidence or proof, or even suggested or implied that Time is NOT linear.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Let me try to explain this to you better. Say there is a boxing match set up. Bob and Tom to fight. Now Bob is my fighter, i own his contract, and i told him to take a dive in the third round, and that Bob would be paid a million dollars to do so. i bet on Tom to win the match, and put 10 million dollars on it. This is Monday that i set all this up. Tuesday the match happens, Bobs takes a dive, and i just won over 10 million dollars. Tell me, on Monday when i set all this up and KNEW who was going to win the match, did i see the future and KNOW who was going to win, or did i make the future exactly as I WANTED IT to be. Monday i knew who was going to win the match, because i MADE it the way I wanted it to go. i did not jump into the future and SEE the outcome, i merely KNEW what the outcome was going to be, and therefore i could have on Monday foretold what was going to happen on Tuesday. Do you understand?

This idea is foreign to the language of the Bible.  The words for SEE and KNOW are identical in Hebrew, they are both yada.