Mark 16:17-20

[RB]

                                                                                   These Signs Shall Follow Them That Believe

Mark 16:15-18~"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

These scriptures in Mark's gospel have been a great source of controversy over the years, mainly because folks cannot discern their truth~ so, some go as far as saying they are not part of the holy scriptures~that is pure unbelief speaking! Others take them literally which shows just about the same ignorance, but on a different level, and allow and gives confidence to the infidels to continue to mock the word of God, unto their own eternal destruction.

Some think these scriptures were only for a period of time during which the worship of God went through the reformation period from Christ's death to the completion of the scriptures and the setting up of churches in this world. This is also wrong, but much closer to the truth, because for sure the miracles the apostles did, did indeed stop, and were indeed only for a specific time period, to confirm that the plan of God was changing from Moses to the times of Christ, which lasted from his birth until his second coming and the end of the world.

Hebrews 2:3,4~"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"

These signs, wonders, and divers miracles, have indeed ceased to a great degree, leaving us with the complete inspired record from heaven for us to believe and trust alone in our worship of our God, and His holy Son, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Now, the question arises how about Mark 16:17,18? These signs shall follow believers, not signs done by apostles, ministers, etc.

It is in this context that Christ says in the next verses after verse 16~ that "and these signs shall follow them that believe." In other words, these are the things that are expected to be seen in believers when they believe and live the gospel:

Those who believe will cast out devils in In Christ's name.
They will speak with new tongues.
They shall take up serpents.
There will be no deadly drink that can hurt them.
They will lay hands on the sick and the sick will recover.

Christ tells us that this is what we all should expect to see as a result of one believing and being baptized as we go into the world with the gospel. These are the signs or evidence of spiritual regeneration that will be seen through the Christ-authored great commission of believing and witnessing their faith in the gospel.

When the believers go into the world with the gospel, these are the "indications" that will be present as evidence of conversion. In Christ's name, those who believe will do all these things that Christ lists. So if these signs or indicators are to be taken literally, then all of the greatest Christians that ever lived were not believers, because these signs did not literally follow them in that sense. By contrast, all these signs did and do follow them 'if' we understand this Biblically. For example, the bite and thus poison of a serpent cannot harm them if we understand the serpent Biblically, rather than literally.

Psalms 58:3-4
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;"

The key is comparing Scripture with Scripture so that we understand God's word in the light of God's word. Let's consider first what this chapter of Mark doesn't say. It doesn't say maybe these signs will follow those that believe. It doesn't say if the Spirit is just right, then these signs will follow them that believe. It doesn't say that some of these signs will follow who believe, nor does it say that these signs will follow some of them that believe. Likewise, it doesn't say that if believers have enough strength or faith, these signs will follow them that believe. To be honest and truthful, what it actually says is, 'go preach the gospel to the world baptizing them, and these signs shall follow them that believe.' In other words, these evidences are the tokens of salvation that will be an indication that a person is a true Believer.

I must ask pointedly, what believer do you know who can pick up a deadly poisonous serpent (e.g. a black Momba) in the name of Christ, and the serpent won't hurt him? Better yet, do you know any believers that are going around picking up these snakes? Yet that is exactly what the text says there--that the 'sign' of a believer is that in Christ's name they shall pick up serpents and not be hurt. I don't take up serpents (snakes) in Christ's name, do you? Yet clearly that is what it says we will do. So the question is not one of 'is it true' (all scripture is), the question is one of how are we to understand this in the light of other Scriptures that will interpret this symbolism of serpents. In that vein we also note that Verse 18 of Mark picks right up on this same theme of the safety of believers among the harmful saying, 'and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them.' Not just that if they might drink something poisonous, but if they drank something deadly poisonous, it would never hurt them.  God is telling us that if we should drink something which would bring us death, we would not die. Thus we must ask again pointedly, "what believer do you know who can drink a deadly poison and not be hurt?" If someone were to slip some highly toxic nerve poison (one drop will kill) into your drink, do you really think you would physically survive? The truth of course is that if you or I, Christian or non-Christian, strong or weak, were to drink that deadly poison, we'll not only be hurt--we'll be dead! It has nothing to do with faith, it has to do with our God given mortality. So is this an enigma or a mystery? Well yes, but only to those who have not studied the scriptures carefully, or those without eyes to see and ears to hear what God is saying. Appropriately, We're not talking about literal eyes or literal ears~and neither is this passage talking about literal serpents or literal deadly poisonous drinks. We're talking in the exact same spiritual, cryptic, symbolic language of the Holy Bible. It's not a language I dreamed up to support my own views, but it is the exact same language God Himself uses all throughout the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New. These two verses of Mark are giving us a marvelous spiritual portrait of the gospel going forth to the world, and how as a result of this, in Christ's name the believers will show forth the fruits of that gospel. God will keep them in safe from harm from the serpent and the deadly poisons with which he brings about the death of others. There are five signs spoken of in Mark that Christ says will follow those who believe. We will go over each one give a brief synopsis and let the Spirit of God reveal (uncover) His secrets concerning them.

Later......RB

[RB]

I would contend that Scripture suggests that those seeking signs lack faith, and that signs themselves are untrustworthy; able to be replicated by the enemy.

Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.  But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:  Matthew 12:38-39

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness. 1Corinthians 1:21-23

That isn't to say that there aren't any signs; many are recorded.  But faith based on such fails (e.g. Simon Magus), and our ability to correctly perceive/interpret them is poor.

Jarrod

Well said, Jarrod.

[yogi bear]

RB you said

Now, the question arises how about Mark 16:17,18? These signs shall follow believers, not signs done by apostles, ministers, etc.

It is in this context that Christ says in the next verses after verse 16~ that "and these signs shall follow them that believe." In other words, these are the things that are expected to be seen in believers when they believe and live the gospel:

Those who believe will cast out devils in In Christ's name.
They will speak with new languages.
They shall take up serpents.
There will be no deadly drink that can hurt them.
They will lay hands on the sick and the sick will recover.

Christ tells us that this is what we all should expect to see as a result of one believing and being baptized as we go into the world with the gospel. These are the signs or evidence of spiritual regeneration that will be seen through the Christ-authored great commission of believing and witnessing their faith in the gospel.

RB with due respect that is your personal opinion not supported by biblical Facts.Let us reason just a moment and let the bible answer for us.

WE know here in then passages we are discussing Jesus was talking to the Apostles and we can fin elsewhere in scripture where this promise was only directed at the apostles as we read in Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."    See the same promise to the apostles with the same reasoning. RB we know the prophesy was carried through the Apostles and as I have shown previously that it the
spirit only came upon them in this manner anyone else that got this gift the Apostles had to lay hands on and transfer said gift it is recorded for us to see but if I must I will find the supporting scripture if you do not know of them.

RB you said

Christ tells us that this is what we all should expect to see as a result of one believing and being baptized as we go into the world with the gospel. These are the signs or evidence of spiritual regeneration that will be seen through the Christ-authored great commission of believing and witnessing their faith in the gospel.

RB again with all due respect this is your opinion not fully supported by scripture. Let us go to the word and see what it says.
What Christ said is
Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." And it did just as Christ said it would. What Christ promised us is then indwelling Spirit and that is what we have as of today. The indwelling is quite different than the power of confirmation. With the indwelling we will produce fruits of the Spirit. That is how one knows and the way we show we have Christ in us.  Galatians 5:22-25 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

RB you also said

I must ask pointedly, what believer do you know who can pick up a deadly poisonous serpent (e.g. a black Momba) in the name of Christ, and the serpent won't hurt him? Better yet, do you know any believers that are going around picking up these snakes? Yet that is exactly what the text says there--that the 'sign' of a believer is that in Christ's name they shall pick up serpents and not be hurt. I don't take up serpents (snakes) in Christ's name, do you? Yet clearly that is what it says we will do. So the question is not one of 'is it true' (all scripture is), the question is one of how are we to understand this in the light of other Scriptures that will interpret this symbolism of serpents.

I do not want to belabor too much on this point but wanted to point out where you error in your logic. Once again this prophesy was recorded as happening so we could have faith that what was prophesied did come to be as evidence for our faith. Look at Acts 28:1-6 1 When they had been brought safely through, then we found out that the island was called Malta. 2 The natives showed us extraordinary kindness; for because of the rain that had set in and because of the cold, they kindled a fire and received us all. 3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat and fastened itself on his hand. 4 When the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they began saying to one another, "Undoubtedly this man is a murderer, and though he has been saved from the sea, justice has not allowed him to live." 5 However he shook the creature off into the fire and suffered no harm. 6 But they were expecting that he was about to swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But after they had waited a long time and had seen nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and began to say that he was a god.

RB thank you for your comments waiting to here more on this if anyone has anything to add.

[RB]

RB thank you for your comments waiting to here more on this if anyone has anything to add.

Well, I have not as yet even explain in detail Mark 16:17,18.

So, yes, more is yet to come.  In the mean time~yogi, my friend, you are not considering the topic:  These signs shall follow "them" that believe.

[Rella]

Well, I have not as yet even explain in detail Mark 16:17,18.

So, yes, more is yet to come.  In the mean time~yogi, my friend, you are not considering the topic:  These signs shall follow "them" that believe.

A simple question.

When you go into your explanation(s) will you please simply tell the readers if you believe the statement These signs shall follow "them" that believe had the original intention for the audience at the time it was written or for "all" that believe into the future.... and why.

[yogi bear]

No RB I think I did deal with that you are not paying attention to what was recorded on subject. You take what is recorded and say well I do not see it that way I think it has to be this way but scripture proves you wrong on many account.

[yogi bear]

RB quickly show me where God is writing more scripture today that He needs to confirm with the signs. Read 1 Corinthians 13 and Eph 4 as well as go back through this thread and reread what I have already posted with scripture and read where through out the new testament this prophesy has come through and fulfilled its purpose remember what the scriptures say the purpose intent was it has happened.

Be real with the word and we shall continue our discussion but if we can not agree with what the word is saying then we have a problem. Remember the Sprint had 2 functions one to come UPON the apostle with power to confirm then word and second to indwell the saints with fruits. Two completely different purposes one for a spell the other for a lifetime one for a select few with a purpose the other to all saints for another purpose we have to be able to distinguish between the two and it is spelled out in the word we have to let the bible do the talking.

[RB]

A simple question.

When you go into your explanation(s) will you please simply tell the readers if you believe the statement These signs shall follow "them" that believe had the original intention for the audience at the time it was written or for "all" that believe into the future.... and why.

I will if you and Yogi will allow me to finish. I must break down my topic in more than one or two posts, if not then folks will complain about being too long.

I have already made it clear Mark16:17,18 is for us TODAY, just as Mark 16:16 is as well.

RB quickly show me where God is writing more scripture today that He needs to confirm with the signs. Read 1 Corinthians 13 and Eph 4 as well as go back through this thread and reread what I have already posted with scripture and read where through out the new testament this prophesy has come through and fulfilled its purpose remember what the scriptures say the purpose intent was it has happened.

Yogi, Mark 16:17,18 has not one thing to do with the completion of the Holy Scriptures~these scriptures have always being true of believers since the beginning of time!

Be real with the word and we shall continue our discussion but if we can not agree with what the word is saying then we have a problem.

Yogi, I will not ask you to be real, for I'm sure you are very sincere and up front~what I will ask you is to hear the scriptures as they will explain the meaning of these words spoken of by Christ.

So please consider carefully my next post as we shall labor to explain the meaning of Jesus' words by using the word of God our only source of interpretation.

[RB]

The first sign mentioned by Christ that shall follow them that believe is......"In my name they shall cast out devils,"..... Does this sign follow those who are believers? Indeed it does! Yet not in the sense of Roman Catholic/the Faith Movement followers/Penetcosticals exorcisms, of evicting supernatural beings from people or houses, or of having the power to command aberrations. It addresses the power of the gospel as believers carry it to the ends of the earth. The gospel that believers possess sets free those whose understanding is in spiritual captivity to the devil. When we are born of God, we have the power to become believers in the truth~ the power of God rests upon us to spread the truth of the gospel, which will cast out devils.

Acts 26:18~"Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

We are the vessels that God uses to accomplish His marvelous work of salvation~in the practical aspect of his elect salvation. God elects; Jesus paid for their sins; the Spirit quickens them to life, and his servant/children are used to turn them from the power of Satan unto God. This is expounding the commission given by Christ to go forth with the word of God that the evil spirit that dwells in this world and with the children of the devil, with the evidence still within the children of God, their message of the gospel drives them from His children. If we truly have the 'faith of Christ,' then we have Christ's Spirit to come with His power to set God's elect free from bondage of their errors. This is the faith that is lacking in unbelief, but that is seen in those who believe. Christ illustrated this very same principle in Matthew chapter seventeen when He cast out demons and His disciples wondered why they couldn't.

Matthew 17:18-20~"And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Yogi, and Rella, this has nothing to do with the completion of the scriptures, or just for that time, but it has to do with FAITH~you, me, and anyone else who has faith can do these things~the sad part is that NO ONE has faith to say unto a mountain ~remove and be cast into the sea~but, if we did, it would be so. BUT, we can truly have enough faith to demand evil spirits to depart from souls so that they can come unto the knowledge of the truth, and it shall be so! God's children are in a war, not with flesh and blood, ....."but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." We have the Spirit of God with the power of truth to command them and to defeat them!

If you are a believer this shall follow you based on Jesus' words. We can't literally make a physical mountain cast itself into the sea by 'our faith,' but we can make kingdoms (mountains = kingdoms) be cast into the sea by 'the faith of Christ.' Just as the Lord's Holy Mountain is a portrait of the Kingdom of God, the mountain in Matthew 17 is symbolic of the kingdom of Satan being cast into the sea. Just as in another demonstration demons were cast out into a herd of swine and ran into the sea (Matthew 8:12), these are pictures where we might see their true deeper spiritual meaning. He who has a devil, is controlled by the spirit of Satan in him. By the preaching of the gospel today, we cast him out through the Spirit and testimony of Christ which we bring. It was for this purpose that we were given power (Acts 1:8) and sent by Christ to the uttermost parts of the earth, to all nations. The church DID NOT LOSE this power at the completion of the holy scriptures. The spirit of the devil wants folks to believe they did.

The second sign mentioned by the Lord......."They shall speak with new tongues."....Later RB
   

[yogi bear]

Okay RED this is a prime example of what I meant about your tangents. You take a simple passage and it takes you pages to reword what was said when the scripture itself explained itself in far less words.

Let us read the passages again and let them tell you what they are saying.

17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.]


Read close 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed was foretold it will happen and recorded that it did happen just as was foretold it would 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.]

Now how did the word from God explain what this was about and what its purpose was to accomplish? 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.]

Preached what? The WORD of GOD What is the word of God ? Scripture why the signs? God said to confirm the word.


You see Red God already answered this in just a few words but you need pages to correct what God has already confirmed.

I will let you finish your tangent but I promise you I will take Gods word over yours.

[Rella]

The first sign mentioned by Christ that shall follow them that believe is......"In my name they shall cast out devils,"..... Does this sign follow those who are believers? Indeed it does! Yet not in the sense of Roman Catholic/the Faith Movement followers/Penetcosticals exorcisms, of evicting supernatural beings from people or houses, or of having the power to command aberrations. It addresses the power of the gospel as believers carry it to the ends of the earth. The gospel that believers possess sets free those whose understanding is in spiritual captivity to the devil. When we are born of God, we have the power to become believers in the truth~ the power of God rests upon us to spread the truth of the gospel, which will cast out devils. We are the vessels that God uses to accomplish His marvelous work of salvation~in the practical aspect of his elect salvation. God elects; Jesus paid for their sins; the Spirit quickens them to life, and his servant/children are used to turn them from the power of Satan unto God. This is expounding the commission given by Christ to go forth with the word of God that the evil spirit that dwells in this world and with the children of the devil, with the evidence still within the children of God, their message of the gospel drives them from His children. If we truly have the 'faith of Christ,' then we have Christ's Spirit to come with His power to set God's elect free from bondage of their errors. This is the faith that is lacking in unbelief, but that is seen in those who believe. Christ illustrated this very same principle in Matthew chapter seventeen when He cast out demons and His disciples wondered why they couldn't.Yogi, and Rella, this has nothing to do with the completion of the scriptures, or just for that time, but it has to do with FAITH~you, me, and anyone else who has faith can do these things~the sad part is that NO ONE has faith to say unto a mountain ~remove and be cast into the sea~but, if we did, it would be so. BUT, we can truly have enough faith to demand evil spirits to depart from souls so that they can come unto the knowledge of the truth, and it shall be so! God's children are in a war, not with flesh and blood, ....."but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." We have the Spirit of God with the power of truth to command them and to defeat them!

If you are a believer this shall follow you based on Jesus' words. We can't literally make a physical mountain cast itself into the sea by 'our faith,' but we can make kingdoms (mountains = kingdoms) be cast into the sea by 'the faith of Christ.' Just as the Lord's Holy Mountain is a portrait of the Kingdom of God, the mountain in Matthew 17 is symbolic of the kingdom of Satan being cast into the sea. Just as in another demonstration demons were cast out into a herd of swine and ran into the sea (Matthew 8:12), these are pictures where we might see their true deeper spiritual meaning. He who has a devil, is controlled by the spirit of Satan in him. By the preaching of the gospel today, we cast him out through the Spirit and testimony of Christ which we bring. It was for this purpose that we were given power (Acts 1:8) and sent by Christ to the uttermost parts of the earth, to all nations. The church DID NOT LOSE this power at the completion of the holy scriptures. The spirit of the devil wants folks to believe they did.

The second sign mentioned by the Lord......."They shall speak with new tongues."....Later RB

I truly am not being argumentative. When you continue with you dissertation...

I would like to know of the gifts that believers receive as mentioned in Mark 16:17 and 18...

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"
"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."


Which of these have you received?

[RB]

I will let you finish your tangent but I promise you I will take Gods word over yours.

Thank you and you should take God's word over mine OR yours! Remember, the Jews took great confidence in believing they were Moses' disciples by following what they thought was the scriptures only~the very scriptures they did not understand!

John 9:28~"Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples."

Read carefully the Jews' and Jesus' discourse in John 8~they boasted of being Abraham's children and accused Jesus of being demon-possessed. They truly believe they were never in bondage, yet their words proved they were even as they were talking!

So, by all means, do not trust me, or even yourself, trust and search the scriptures and look to God to reveal His truth to you.

Which of these have you received?

Rella, they are available to ALL believers~each will give evidence to a different degree to each one of these signs that naturally followers ALL of God's children. Wait until I'm finished and then be as critical as you believe you should be~only I ask you to prove your position with scriptures.

[RB]

Another sign or signification of a believer: "They shall speak with new tongues."

In scripture, tongue is used to mean an un-acquired language of another nation. For example one might say, 'I speak in the Hebrew tongue, or I speak in the Egyptian tongue, or I speak in three different tongues.' It is simply a word used in scripture meaning languages. It is implied because the tongue is what we use to speak with. e.g.:

Revelation 14:6~"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.."

Revelation 10:11"And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

In other words, you must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations and languages. Therefore, speaking in different tongue is simply speaking in a language that is not your own, in order to minister to someone who does speak "your" language. That is the way the word tongues is used in scripture. Unfortunately in our day, some professing Christians would like it to mean more than it actually does in order to justify their unbiblical babbling utterances. Nevertheless, the only justification of speaking in tongues is for someone to speak in an unknown language~ that is to say, unknown to those of one nation or another. Likewise, when we read in Mark chapter 16 the phrase that they shall "speak with new tongues," this simply means that the gospel is going out to those who speak in different languages. In other words, believers will speak in different languages so that the whole world will hear the gospel. Those who believe will not only primarily be Jewish anymore, but believers will speak in many new languages. Because of indoctrination, some Christians think more of the word 'tongues' than what it signifies or more than what is qualified by the scriptures in context. Believers will now speak with all the languages of the earth because in Christ salvation has now gone out to all the Gentile nations into every diverse language. Indeed, what did Christ say at the very beginning of these declarations of Mark?

Mark 16:15~"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

That is right before Christ declaring these are the signs that will follow them that believe. It's in perfect harmony with them speaking with new languages, because the "fact" is, in order to preach the gospel to every creature, to every nation, those who believe would "have" to speak with new languages. I believe this prophecy of speaking in new languages is fulfilled in two ways. First and foremost, the gospel message is going into all the world to every people of every language on earth. Therefore those who believe will speak with new languages. Second, in the spiritual sense, those who believe speak with the new language of a new nation (1st Peter 2:9), a chosen nation, a new kingdom with a new ruler, a spiritual language that only those in Christ with ears to hear can understand. In Christ's name, those who believe do speak in new languages as the gospel of the Kingdom is preached to every nation in every tongue or language. By the power of Christ, no matter what tongue the people of those nations hear the gospel in, the elect will it and understand it because the gospel message is a language that transcends cultures, people, and nations. It is the universal language that 'only' those who believe can receive and understand, while those in unbelief will think it foolishness. Most people think some things we say, is hard to understand, and truly makes no sense to them, to them is is like speaking in an unknown tongue to them even if both are of the same language.
   
A language to all the world, but that only as it is mixed with faith, can be understood unto salvation. Clearly, salvation before the time of the cross was primarily (but not exclusively) to the people of the nation of Israel. After the cross, there was a new dispensation where it is poured out as a refreshing of waters to every tongue, and in every tongue, there are those who understand. This is because the gospel message is one that is not based on intelligence, rank, learning ability, or nationality. It is gone out to all people, and in any new language (tongue) that we preach it, the people can understand if born of God, if not, they cannot.

Many readily understand the aspect of preaching in the languages of different nations and peoples, but let's look deeper into the spiritual nature of this prophecy. Before we were saved, we didn't understand the Bible. It was like a closed or sealed book. Very much like a foreign language to us. In other words, it's written in a different language from that of the world even though it uses many of the same words. The hidden or covered things of the scriptures are not really seen by us. But when one is born of God, this spiritual language of God is revealed to us that we can understand. We discern its truth no matter what tongue we originally speak or heard it in.

Isaiah 50:4~"The Lord God hath given Me the TONGUE of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine EAR to HEAR as the learned"

Ears to hear this language or tongue of the learned, that is our praise. We are the Sent, whom God has given the tongue or language of the learned that we speak a word in due season. Because we are born from above, we speak in new languages to those of the world. Our desire is that they also receive salvation and will prophesy again. Before salvation, they could not understand the things of God. After they are in Christ, it's a totally different story. Things that they thought were foolish and never understood before, they now understand. Where once the Bible was as a book of contradictions, it is now one of the few things in this world that is not hypocritical but consistent, true, and trustworthy. Where once scripture read like an incomprehensible repeating language, it is now revealed as the great wisdom of God with the smoothness of honey, very consistent, flowing, and sweet. Believers have become a new creation going forth to the whole world speaking with new languages that others might know things that they could not know before.

1st Corinthians 2:11-12~"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the Spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God KNOWETH NO MAN, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might KNOW the things that are freely given to us of God."

No matter what new tongue or language we speak, we now know these things because we now speak and know the things of God by the Spirit, and not through our own worldly wisdom. God illustrated this speaking in new languages and how all nations would understand when the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost. There He performed the glorious miracle of a mighty rushing wind (signifying the Spirit), and there appeared to the apostles' fire in the shape of cloven tongues, and each one of them was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:2-8~"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"

The fire was like cloven or divided tongues to illustrates that every nation will now feel the fire of God's cleansing upon their language and will be witnesses to Him. God is now sending the gospel message to the languages of the whole world and they all will hear as one. This very literal miracle of God's Spirit as tongues of fire signifies (was a sign or token) that the word was going out to every tongue. This miracle is not one that will follow everyone who believes, but the "sign" which this miracle represents, most assuredly will. The believers shall speak with new tongues, for God will baptize every tongue with fire that they too shall be made clean and acceptable.

Notice that when the Spirit of these tongues sat upon them that they began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them to, and the people were, in turn, amazed because these people of different nations all heard the apostles in their own native language. In other words, those of Hebrew origin heard them speak in Hebrew, those who understood Greek heard them speak in Greek, etc., etc. This is not the babbling nonsense that you hear in churches today that claim they are speaking in tongues, it was a miracle that what the Spirit of God inspired these men to say was miraculously heard in the language of the person from that nation. Those who were present all heard the gospel truth in their own language or tongue no matter what tongue they spoke. That is what this miracle signifies (was a sign of), that believers will speak the gospel with new tongues or languages. The gospel will be universally understood, no matter what language it's translated into. Because both hearing and understanding is of God.

Romans 10:17~"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

All languages or tongues now can understand because it's not a matter of understanding Hebrew, it is a gift of God. This miracle in Acts of tongues was not Christians babbling incoherently, or pretending that God was speaking in an unearthly, unknown language. The miracle was that all heard (and understood in their own language) what was said. This bears no resemblance to what some professing Christians today call speaking in tongues. The commission given to us was to go into all the world with the gospel, and this sign would be seen. They would speak with new languages. No more is the God of Israel a foreign idea to the Gentile nations, for they in their own tongue, would be included and spread the word. The gospel is an unknown language to them that 'believe not,' but not to them that believe. In this sense, tongues are for those who don't believe, the gentile nations because the Gospel is gone to them that they might believe.

And so here again, this sign indeed also follows those who believe. Not in the way some professing Christians of our day might want, but in the way God always intended it. The believers go to the whole world and to every kindred, and speak with new languages spreading the gospel to all peoples. Even as our Lord instructed us to do in the great commission.

One more sense we believe could and should be said about speaking with a NEW TONGUE~once a person is born of God they no longer use their tongues to speak as they did before they came to Christ, they ALL speak with a new tongue~words of love, kindness, comfort, no longer using their tongue to cuss, lie, backbite, talebearing, to murder others character, etc., etc. A true sign of those who believe and have been baptized into Jesus Christ's religion ALL are known for having a tongue of kindness, words well spoken, well thought out, etc.

[yogi bear]

Again Red Not going down your rabbit trail but let me say this. You are somewhat correct with defining the various signs but completely missing the message that was given in those passages. Those passages did not try to define the signs but the purpose of the signs in which you totally miss the point given in the scripture itself the scripture has already answered in far less words than you what it is taking about.

[RB]

Another sign or signification of a believer: "If they shall drink any DEADLY thing it shall not hurt them."

Deadly drink is poison in scripture is often illustrative of the poisoned tongue or false witness of the wicked who come speaking against God's word, yet come speaking in the name of Jesus, and saying Jesus is the Christ! Matthew 24:5. It is this type poison that is spiritually deadly, but also "cannot" harm the true believer. This is not literal or rather physical poison, but the spiritual poison of words. If you give anyone (believer or non-believer) a cup of deadly poison, he'll be hurt. If the poison is strong or deadly enough, he'll be dead. God is not telling believers that if we drink a cup of literal Arsenic, Cyanide, Strychnine, or Ricin our body will not die. He is telling us that the deadliest poisons in the world are the words of deception by evil men, and that they cannot harm us. That is what this reference to deadly drink signifies. As Bible-believing Christians, we should get our definitions of God's words from the scriptures, rather than Webster's dictionary as far as teaching doctrine~for the Bible is its own interpreter. And God looks upon the speech of the wicked as a deadly poison. For example:

James 3:8~"but the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison!"

Believers speak with a new tongue, no longer using deceit toward any!
 
This is not man equating the tongue or the speech of men as an unruly evil full of deadly poison, God did. It is He that equates the words of evil men as deadly poison, and it is He who tells us that these poisons cannot harm the true believer. Language is an unruly evil in teachings of lawlessness or sin. This poison is just as substantive as any physical poison but it's twice as deadly because it leads to the second death. Believers will never see the second death because this deadly poison cannot hurt those who believe. In Christ Jesus they are immune to the evil words of men~over all considering. The teachings of wickedness, no matter how deceiving, blasphemous, slanderous, or seductive, cannot harm those who are regenerated to believe, for we are secured by the oath and faithfulness of the God of Heaven! Psalms 89; Hebrews 6; etc.

Deuteronomy 32:32-33~"for their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter, their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps."

This poison of dragons is again illustrative of the deception of Satan and those who come in the spirit of Satan. Poison there signifies their evil beliefs and doctrines. This passage also confirms again what we learned about taking up serpents, calling this deception and lies the venom of serpents or snakes. Again, the poison of our adversary Satan. God has always used this 'symbolic' or illustrative language throughout the scriptures, both in old and new Testaments. This interpretation of serpents and poisons is not new or novel. It is not a new way of interpreting, it is the same old way of interpreting or understanding symbolism that God has always used. It is the way of sound Biblical hermeneutics. For example, in Revelation chapter 17 we read of the Harlot (unfaithful woman, the church) with the wine of her fornication that makes men spiritually drunken. As opposed to the wine of faithful communion with God through the blood of Christ, this woman offers the wine of her unfaithfulness unto the damnation of men. Amos 5:7 speaks of God's people turning sound judgment into wormwood, which is a bitter and sometimes deadly poison. This refers to the same poisonous doctrines. Doctrines that cause the people who drink thereof to die.

Revelation 8:11~ "And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."

In the New Testament the word wormwood is found only here in Revelation, but it appears numerous times in the Old Testament and always refers to bitterness, poison, and death. All false doctrines are as wormwood and as a poison that brings death. Just as the true gospel is pictured as the living waters that bring life. These are two exact opposites, two 180-degree opposing illustrations of what goes into a person that brings life and what brings death. These significations are certainly not a coincidence, they're God-breathed. Those who are regenerated to believe may drink the deadly poisons of the wicked and will not be hurt because they already have everlasting life. If they were resurrected to new life, they can never die. Not of this deadly poison or anything else.

John 11:25-26~"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Once a person is born of God,  that person can never die no matter what snake, poison or devil you may come upon in the true sense of death. When Mark chapter 16 says if they drink any deadly thing, they'll not be harmed, and tells us that this is one of the signs of a believer, it is illustrating how we have the power not to be harmed by false gospels or teachers who come with words of death, because we can never die. When Jesus met the woman of Samaria at the well and asked her for a drink, the outcome was already ordained:

John 4:10~"If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water."

This is the drink of living waters, the opposite of the deadly drink He says can't hurt us in Mark. If you drink physical water, you'll be thirsty again because we're human beings with God-given mortality. That mortality is why if we drink physical deadly poison we'll be dead. God doesn't promise us everlasting "earthly life," nor immunity from physical poisons, He promises us spiritual waters of Spiritual life. In verse 14 Christ continues saying, "but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst." Illustrating once again He was not talking about a physical drink, but the spiritual water of salvation. Blessed are those who thirst after 'this water.' When we (believers) bring the gospel, it is like we are bringing cool waters to a dry and thirsty soul.

By the same token, when a false prophet or teacher brings false gospels, he is bringing deadly poison to drink. It is the drink that brings not life but death. But the believers need not fear, for the sign that follows them is that this type deadly drink cannot harm them. They will not (by the faith of Christ through the Spirit of truth) follow after false doctrines because they know truth from deception. They follow only the voice of the good shepherd!

John 8:47~"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

In other words, those who believe by the Spirit receive God's word of truth that they do not turn aside after substitute doctrines not found in scripture so that by this Spirit they are safe and secure in the true gospel of Christ. Nothing can separate them from the love of God (Romans 8:35-39). While others may be deceived and duped by false gospels, the sign following the true believer is that they shall not be hurt by this deadly drink. For they are the FAITHFUL witness. ANd it is impossible to totally deceive the very elect~Matthew 24:24

So once again, this sign indeed also follows all that believe. Having drank from the living waters, they can thus never die of these poisons, and so are safe from the wicked, deceitful tongues of men. For they are sealed or secured by the Holy Spirit.

Thus is the meaning of this sign that follows ALL true believers~always has, always will.

[RB]

Again Red Not going down your rabbit trail but let me say this. You are somewhat correct with defining the various signs but completely missing the message that was given in those passages. Those passages did not try to define the signs but the purpose of the signs in which you totally miss the point given in the scripture itself the scripture has already answered in far less words than you what it is taking about.

Yogi my friend, no rabbit trail, but interpreting scriptures WITH scriptures for us to come to the true knowledge of the truth.

I could have said more, but kept it overall short. I could have given examples of myself drinking poison from false teachers in my early years as a believer, and not only myself doing so, but MOST true believers who labor to know the truth have gone through the same experience as the above post. I would dare say those believers who truly labor to make their election and calling sure have without question believe false doctrines of false prophets and live to give a testimony of doing so!

[yogi bear]

Okay RB you keep writing your pages of what you feel God really meant but in doing just remember God has already said what he was doing with the signs and it is really more simple than you are laboring to correct his intent. God already spelled it out He was going to use the simple sign  to show that what the apostles were (early church) teaching was indeed from God. He also said that it has already been done and even recorded for you where the signs were used just as he said they were. It was all plain and simple no drawled out page after page of mystic mysterious meaning that was not at face value but something we need people like you to correct.

[4WD]

Okay RB you keep writing your pages of what you feel God really meant but in doing just remember God has already said what he was doing with the signs and it is really more simple than you are laboring to correct his intent. God already spelled it out He was going to use the simple sign  to show that what the apostles were (early church) teaching was indeed from God. He also said that it has already been done and even recorded for you where the signs were used just as he said they were. It was all plain and simple no drawled out page after page of mystic mysterious meaning that was not at face value but something we need people like you to correct.

I must say that I agree with you, yogi. RB is metaphoicalizing passages in which there is absolutely no need to do so. The scriptures reveal circumstances in which such things actually occurred, even if those occurrences were quite limited.  There is no real reason to infer that such signs would be accomplished in actuality by ALL who believe.

[yogi bear]

RB using the Mark 16 scriptures we are discussing let us ask and answer the simple questions.

First this one is not simple but we have to look through the bible to answer but it is answered through out the new testament.

According to the biblical context who was the believers that it follows?  My short answer is the church (his body) Longer we notice it was the apostles only no mention of any others up to Acts 6 where the apostle NOT the spirit laid hands on a few to do the same work as the Apostle so they  could move on and spread the WORD

Also note that even though the apostle transferred the gift to some they were unable to that themselves they had to call for an Apostle come and lay hands on other people as you of Phillip in Acts 8

Next question
Just what do the scriptures IN Mark 16 say the signs were for? It says that they were to confirm the word that the apostles were proclaiming. Plain and simple to confirm the word is that not what it says?

Next question
What is the word the signs are confirming? The word is the word spoken of the Spirit as the Spirit is bringing to recollection all Jesus taught the Apostle while He walk with them correct. It is scripture correct? It is the word of God correct? It is new revelation in the process of being recorded for all man to have faith is it not?

Next question
Does the New Testament record any place where the Prophesy of Mark 16:17,18  came about? My answer is yes we read where the apostles did in fact use these gifts. It is recorded by Paul and the viper it is recorded of the many places of them using the new tongue it is recorded of the casting out demons and so forth do I need to look up each one or can you recall from your reading.

So yes it tells that the gifts were used but did not say that all the meaning you are trying to add was what the passage was trying to say it is simple the gifts were to follow those that believe (the church ,The body) for a specific reason not individual and it did.

Now no offence and with all due respect just because you can string a lot of passages together to try to make you personal belief make sense and sound biblical does not change the fact that God has already given you His word (His Word) on the matter and honestly It is quite simple and clear  and short not page after page to rewrite what God so simply said.


Now I have asked and answered the questions when you finish belaboring on trying to add to what God was meaning with each gift go back and answer the questions for me.

I will repeat them and line them up for you for easy finding.

According to the biblical context who were the believers that it follows?

Just what do the scriptures IN Mark 16 say the signs were for?

What is the word the signs are confirming?
Does the New Testament record any place where the Prophesy of Mark 16:17,18  came about?

[yogi bear]

Just a little welcoming comment. If anyone else is following this discussion your comments are more than welcome.

[RB]

RB using the Mark 16 scriptures we are discussing let us ask and answer the simple questions.

Yogi, I love simplicity, it has always amazed me, being a simple person, how the God of heaven who possesses Infinite wisdom and knowledge, gave to us his holy scriptures in very simple words that even an unlearned individual can grasp hold of. The Lord Jesus spoke on a very common level, with never a word used where one would need Webster to give its definition~and being simple this has ever impressed my mind and it should others as well.

First, this one is not simple we have to look through the bible to answer but it is answered throughout the new testament.

Yogi, even though our Lord Jesus used very simple words, yet, he spoke often in parables, and proverbs, using words that may seem to mean one thing, yet the overall scriptures would always interpret the seemly plain and simple words~John 3:16 is a classic example of this. The word "world" does not mean every single person that has ever lived in this world, or shall ever live in this world but is spoken in reference to not only Jews but Gentiles as well. God was the God of the Jews only in the OT, but a new revelation was beginning to be open to the world that God was also the God of the Gentiles as well as the Jews.

Romans 3:29~"Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:"

For God so loved the world e.g. Jews and Gentiles. Among the Jews and Gentiles, God has an elect person~so, John 3:16 sound bites should not be used to teach God loves every single person that has ever lived or shall live. That is a corruption of simple words, we must allow scriptures to interpret its doctrines for us.

I can and will go through the scriptures and show you and others that these signs or evidence of a true believer have always been true and have always followed them throughout their life of faith.

According to the biblical context who was the believers that it follows?  My short answer is the church (his body)

Okay, agree...all of the very elect......the church of God both OT and NT.

Longer we notice it was the apostles only no mention of any others

Wait, hold on Yogi~you went from the church to the apostles only. Right here you are injecting your own private interpretation and you should know that's not the path to the truth! but the path to error and corruption of God's word.

Yogi, go back and read the beginning of this thread, we fully understand the apostles had supernatural gifts of the Spirit that is NOT given to us and we also know the reason why they had those gifts, per Hebrews 2 which scriptures we quoted from in the beginning.

Mark 16:17,18 is totally different signs following ALL BELIEVERS, and you must address this and leave the apostles and their supernatural gifts out of our discussion, for NONE OF US, have those gifts, of literally raising the dead as Peter did in Acts 9:36-42 this gift HAS CEASED when the apostles died off.

But, there are certain signs mentioned in Mark 16:17,18 which have been following believers since time began and will until the end of the world.

Just what do the scriptures IN Mark 16 say the signs were for? It says that they were to confirm the word that the apostles were proclaiming. Plain and simple to confirm the word is that not what it says?

I have a meeting~I'll try to make it back and finish before the day ends, if not in the morning. 

[Rella]

Yogi, I love simplicity, it has always amazed me, being a simple person, how the God of heaven who possesses Infinite wisdom and knowledge, gave to us his

Best add the correction that God gave us the  holy scriptures in very simple words that even an unlearned individual can grasp hold of. And correct it to read God gave the simplicity to those with the Spirit.

With that being said... your replies come across as anything but simple words.

[RB]

Best add the correction that God gave us the  holy scriptures in very simple words that even an unlearned individual can grasp hold of. And correct it to read God gave the simplicity to those with the Spirit.

With that being said... your replies come across as anything but simple words.

Rella, though the scriptures themselves are written using easy-to-understand words and easy to pronounce.....( except names in the Jews genealogies )...yet, the truth of them is not so easy to grasp, and that was done purposely by God.

Matthew 13:10-17~"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them."

Rella, it may not be with my replies, but it could be with your ears, eyes, and understanding....just a thought.

[yogi bear]

Red you said

Yogi, go back and read the beginning of this thread, we fully understand the apostles had supernatural gifts of the Spirit that is NOT given to us and we also know the reason why they had those gifts, per Hebrews 2 which scriptures we quoted from in the beginning.

Mark 16:17,18 is totally different signs following ALL BELIEVERS, and you must address this and leave the apostles and their supernatural gifts out of our discussion, for NONE OF US, have those gifts, of literally raising the dead as Peter did in Acts 9:36-42 this gift HAS CEASED when the apostles died off.

Red it is not I that is changing the wording of scripture but you my friend. A prime example is you trying to tell me that in John 3:16 the word world does not mean every living human on earth but only a select few that God will hand pick. With that statement alone you have dis-created yourself because the very scripture itself makes it clear that it is offered to whosoever believeth in him .

You are doing the same with Mark 16:17 for it clearly says And these signs shall follow them that believe........ Them that believe means the church of which the Apostles are starting. They are the believers it does not say everyone or all but those which believe it could be some numbered in a group.  The new testament as you admit proves that it was only the Apostles that received those gifts the only gifts that are mentioned in Mark 16:17,18 but you are trying to change that also to say that it is not those gifts mentioned but some strange gifts that is only in a parable so see I am reading what is recorded you are rewriting what God has recorded.

[RB]

Red it is not I that is changing the wording of scripture but you my friend. A prime example is you trying to tell me that in John 3:16 the word world does not mean every living human on earth but only a select few that God will hand pick. With that statement alone you have dis-created yourself because the very scripture itself makes it clear that it is offered to whosoever believeth in him.

Keep from hijacking this thread I will only add this: Yogi, the gospel is NOT offered, that should be clear to any person who studies the scriptures without a biased mind. You have been taught to say those words, so you just repeat what you have heard others say. It was Jesus who offered himself to God, in order to SECURED the salvation of his people.

John 3:16 is not a scripture offering salvation to sinners, but a scripture making a biblical declaration of a biblical truth.

John 3:16~"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now, let me ask you this question: "do you truly see an offering of salvation to sinners in this verse? Or, do you see a declaration of a biblical truth? Jesus is declaring that whoever believeth in him SHALL NOT perish, but have everlasting life. 

Now, consider this and I'm finished on John 3:16. Who was Jesus speaking to? A leader of the Jews, who thought they had a corner on the worship of God and were his people alone, not the Gentiles, or the rest of the world. Jesus is revealing truth to him that God loved the Gentiles as well as the Jews and that the Salvation of God is going out unto the Gentile world, and that God is NOT the God of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles. This revelation is seen all throughout the NT with scriptures supporting the interpretation of the word WORLD in John 3:16, being Jews and Gentiles.  Romans 9:24; 10:12,13, etc. The word world is used in different senses in the scriptures, and here its meaning is Jews and Gentiles, and among them both, God has an elect people, called...... the election of grace. Another subject for another day, a subject most reject. They will know the truth of this one day soon.

Enough said.  RB

[yogi bear]

OK Red I will give you the statement of truth but it is a biblical declaration of a biblical truth on who will be saved and it says whoever and I will give you it is about Jews and Gentiles for who else is there and just wondering is "Jesus is declaring that whoever believeth in him SHALL NOT perish, but have everlasting life. " not salvation?

Remember lets not try to twist the scripture to what we believe but what they really say and yes this is not a thread on John 3:16 but you brought it up and falsely used it in your trying to twist scripture. I had to correct your error.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Just a little welcoming comment. If anyone else is following this discussion your comments are more than welcome.

As nearly as I can tell, the question of signs is secondary.  The more important question is whether the verses should even be included in the Bible.

One of the main criteria used for deciding canonicity was 'who wrote it?'  Only books written by apostles or Jesus' brothers were considered.  Was this late addition to the book written by an apostle?  A brother of the Lord?  No and no.  Should it be in the canon?  No.

Does it contain an authentic doctrine of the early church?  Yes.  How much is that worth to you, if it does not have the rubber-stamp approval of canon?

Jarrod

[yogi bear]

Jarrod my brother you asked "Does it contain an authentic doctrine of the early church?  Yes.  How much is that worth to you, if it does not have the rubber-stamp approval of canon?"

My answer is I feel that it is well covered and supported by scripture throughout the New Testament to make it an authentic doctrine of the early church. If it was not written by an Apostle here in Mark it was proclaimed by them else where so it is still the word of God so still an authentic doctrine.

Although I do look up to your knowledge so if you feel I should not be giving it credit then I will have to look for the passages that are scattered to prove the same point.

[RB]

Remember lets not try to twist the scripture to what we believe but what they really say and yes this is not a thread on John 3:16 but you brought it up and falsely used it in your trying to twist scripture. I had to correct your error.

Yogi, how is a person twisting scriptures (such as the ones we are discussing) when one party uses scriptures to interpret scriptures, while the person accusing a person of twisting the scriptures, does not at least show the person his use of the scripture to prove his doctrine is wrong by using other scriptures to point the error out? If you are going to accuse me of twisting scriptures then at least take the scriptures I use to show how they are wrongly used to teach the doctrine I'm claiming it teaches.

Example:

Another sign or signification of a believer: "If they shall drink any DEADLY thing it shall not hurt them."

Take those scriptures I applied to this sign and prove to me this cannot be so. How can you say I twist scriptures by applying this to the sense I gave it.

Yogi, I can assure you if the apostles (since you want to limit this to them) drank any deadly thing they would die! and so would you or me, or any other person.

If a person takes up a deadly serpent, ( Paul did not take it up as the snake handler does, to show his faith, it simply lacked on to them while gathering sticks ) he's putting his life in danger, the scriptures do not offer protection to such fanatics~yet God's children walk among little serpent that are children of the old serpent and God protect them from them~ these signs follow all of God's children and have since the beginning of time.

Just what do the scriptures IN Mark 16 say the signs were for? It says that they were to confirm the word that the apostles were proclaiming. Plain and simple to confirm the word is that not what it says?

Yogi, not disagreeing that the apostles had supernatural powers that no one possess post the apostles.

For around forty years after the death of Christ, special miracles and wonders were performed by the apostles, that no longer exist, or are available for us. During the period of reformation (Christ's death and the setting up of Gentile churches) God gave such miracles and wonder, and signs, to confirm that Christ's religion is now the religion of Heaven, and Judaism is no longer needed or even accepted. 

Yet Mark 16,17,18 are different signs that follow all believers including the apostles, and down to the least member of the churches of the Gentiles! 

[RB]

Only books written by apostles or Jesus' brothers were considered. 

Jesus' brothers? Where? Not the book of James, he was an apostle, and one of the main pillars of the church at Jerusalem. So, where?

Btw, All of Mark's 16th chapter is part of the word of God, who cares what critics say? Not me.

[RB]

"They shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover."

Assuming we're all rational people here, do you 'honestly' know anyone who can lay hands on the 'physically' sick and they will recover? Of course, we know there are those who claim that they can, and there are those who blindly believe every story that they hear concerning it, but truthfully speaking, who has such power? The claims of being able to speak in tongues and of an ability to physically heal by laying on hands, are generally trademarks of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements/word of faith movement. But if these were really the "signs" that should follow those who believe, then we would have to say that the gospel is a MISERABLE failure, because these signs are non-existent today. Last time I check, the hospitals are running over with sick folks who need healing, children hospitals likewise are full, needing healing. Where are these signs and where are the believers doing them. Are they all in those cult-like movements? No, because God has not promised that those who believe will show the sign of being able to physically heal by laying on hands.

2nd Timothy 4:20~"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."

Toward the end of Paul's ministry, Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for his often infirmities, revealing that such healing was on its way out. 
   
Why didn't these Spirit-filled believers lay hands on Trophimus and Timothy and miraculously heal them if they could? Why isn't this 'sign' of laying hands on the sick that they recover following him? The answer is simple--this believer knows something that Charismatics and Pentecostals do not know. Namely, God has not given the church power to lay hands on physically sick individuals and have them miraculously healed. Many today are puzzled because God says that this is also a 'signification' of a believer. In other words, when you see believers, you should see this 'sign' (signification) following them. We know the Bible is true, so what gives concerning this passage?

The pertinent question is, are these promises to be taken in a strictly physical fashion today, or were the miracles of healings recorded in the Bible before its completion a confirmation for the early Church signifying something spiritual? If this was to be taken literally as a sign of a believer, then it's one which is untrue. Because as this Christian in 2nd Timothy, few of us even make the claim to be able to lay hands on anyone and heal them from a physical sickness. Real sickness like Cancer, Aids, or any other terminal physical illnesses cannot be healed in our day by the touch of our hands. The truth is that this promise by God in Mark was that those who believe will go forth healing people in an 'infinitely more important way than physically, which is spiritually. Let us look at this issue carefully in light of scripture. We know conclusively that those who are unsaved are pictured in the Bible as those who are sick, and in need of a doctor. For example; the Pharisees wanted to know why Jesus ate with publicans and sinners. Jesus answered...

Matthew 9:12-13~"..they that be whole need not a Physician, but they that are Sick." But go ye and Learn what that meaneth, I will have Mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the RIGHTEOUS, but Sinners to repentance".

Jesus said, 'Go learn what that meaneth,' and YET there are many today who still haven't learned what that means. It means He's not talking about a doctor, or about physical health or sickness. Jesus is talking about something far more important than physical health or physical healing. If we would go learn what Jesus means (as He said), then Christians wouldn't be thinking they can heal physically with the touch of a hand. They are deceiving themselves with egotistical vanity, and power-hungry pride.

Carefully consider, that Jesus has clearly equated the publicans and sinners with those being 'sick.' Check it out carefully to see if that is true. They are the ones in need of a Saviour. They are the ones who need the 'true' physician. Jesus Christ is that physician that heals. These sinners were not physically sick, but they were sick spiritually. That's why Jesus ate with them. That's why the prophesies were of Messiah coming with healing in His wings. The sinners were the ones who needed the Physician Christ. They are the ones who needed their sin-sick souls healed. Of course, Jesus did many 'literal' miracles of healing the sick, but those miracles were to "illustrate" something far more important, just as the Resurrection of Lazarus was illustrative of a far more important resurrection. Does the fact that Jesus and the Apostles did miracles mean that we can by miracle heal the sick? No more than the fact that Jesus raised lazarus from the dead means we can raise up a corpse that is rotting and stinking from decay, as Christ did. No more than Jesus and Peter walking on water illustrates that we also can walk on water, or that we can spit in someone's eye and make them see. That is not the lesson God is putting forth by these miracles. When we read in scripture of the people being healed, we are getting a spiritual "picture" of the healing nature of Salvation. This is just as when we read in the scripture of the Lamb being slain. It is a picture of Christ. Or when we read of the fish and loaves feeding five thousand. It is a spiritual picture of the feeding of the Lords people with the bread of the gospel, and how it will be multiplied from a small start. i.e., a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump, or a tiny grain of mustard seed growing into a great tree. It's not there to illustrate that we can send thousands of swine running into the sea, or feed five thousand with a few fish, or cast a mountain into the sea, or walk on water, etc. It's there as a spiritual picture of Salvation, Security, and judgment. And that's the picture in Mark chapter 16 of believers laying on hands and healing.

God has sent us as his vessels or the tools He uses to heal his people in a practical sense turning them from error to truth, from darkness to the true light of the gospel.. We come with the word of God in our hand to heal the sick. When they become saved IN A PRACTICAL SENSE, they have been healed. They have been made whole. We can pray for healing of our infirmities, we can take medicine for healing, but the only hand that can heal 'physically' is God's. And if He will not heal in answer to our by prayers, or our medication, then 'His Grace is sufficient for us." God has not such awesome power of physical healing in our hands. If that were true, we'd never die. For every time we got sick, we'd heal ourselves. The doctrine of being able to lay on hands physically sick and heal them is an ego trip cloaked in platitudes about having faith.

It is often said by those who profess supernatural healing that, 'Christ went to the cross to heal us,' and this is indeed true. But He didn't go to the cross to heal us 'physically' as they surmise, else the cross would have been a total failure. For we all get sick, and we all die from some sickness. That is 'NOT' what Christ went to the cross to heal us from.

1st Peter 2:24-25~"Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness, by whose stripes YE WERE HEALED, for ye were as Sheep going astray, but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your Souls".

This isn't talking about any Physical healing, it's talking about healing us from our sin sickness. His stripes were for our Healing, but not physical healing. He was beaten because of our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquity. That's the Healing (our sin) that came by His stripes (punishment). Not that He healed me or you from catching a cold, or gave us some power to cure aids, grow short legs longer, or cure cancer, but that He healed us from the sickness of sin which kept us from being whole. That is what 1st Peter is delineating. This was confirmation of fulfillment of the scripture in Isaiah 53:5 which spoke of our healing from sin, as expounded in...

Matthew 8:16-17~"When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses".

This is a reference to that verse in Isaiah, this is what 1st Peter is talking about. The miracles of healing were for confirmation that this was indeed the fulfillment of the prophesied Messiah and the New Covenant. The Miracles confirmed this, it was not an indication that this is the normal power of believers.

Hebrews 2:3"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? "

These were a witness that this was the Christ, the sun with 'healing' in His wings (Malachi 4:2), and a token that the prophesied time had come. The healings were spiritual confirmations. But with the completion of New Testament scripture, the Word is sealed and not to be added to, nor taken away from. There is no more confirmation of additional Word of God! For there 'is no' additional Word. The New Covenant canon is Complete, not incomplete. He who adds to the Word now, by alleged divine revelation, is subject to the plagues of God written therein. It's not an insignificant matter as some suppose, it's a very serious matter.

The prayer of a righteous man availeth much in physical healings, but we have no power to lay hands on the physically sick and they will recover. The hospitals are full of people who could stand a healing very nicely, so why aren't these people who claim such power not there healing them instead of in contrived revival tents? Why aren't they healing the Aids patients, the Cancer patients, the terminally ill patients, the amputated patients, etc. Cure someone with an amputated leg, and all would say you've done a miracle, so why cannot they do this? The answer is quite obvious when we look at it honestly. Because to try and do so would show them for what they are. i.e., not able to heal or do the type miracles which the Apostles and Jesus did by the laying on of hands, or any other way.

Whenever this practice is challenged, we hear the same old excuses. 'Someone had no faith, and that's why it didn't work.' It's much more lucrative to feign healing in a evangelist's tent or at a so called revival where people go expecting to see a healing and so will see one whether there really is one or not. But the healing that God has in view is the job the believer does in bringing spiritual healing.

What good is it if you heal a man physically, and he is still sick spiritually where he is destined for destruction? The physical healing then profited Nothing! On the other hand, if a person is laying on their death bed physically, and you bring the gospel providing a spiritual healing, that person is INFINITELY better off than from any physical healing. The prayer of faith hath saved him. Healed Him! by your hand! If he should still die physically, it's the best thing that could ever happen to him, for "to live is Christ, but to die is gain"~Phil. 1:21. This is the healing that is important for the believer to bestow, and this is the sign that will follow those who believe. People become spiritually well because they come with the gospel.

When Jesus would heal, often times he would say, "go and sin no more!" Was He saying they were physically sick because they sinned? No, rather He was "equating" sins with a sickness. He was giving us a spiritual picture of the sin sickness, and also of how that sickness could be healed. He bore our infirmities on the cross and healed us. It is He and only He who can do the real miracle which is the miracle of Salvation. In the spiritual language, He is the Physician that we are in need of, who will heal us. The righteous need not this Physician, but we sinners do.

So, does this sign follow them that believe? Indeed it does. They lay hands on the sick, and they do recover because in their hands is the gospel which alone can heal the sick. They come with the power of the healing Word.

[DaveW]

"They shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover."

Assuming we're all rational people here, do you 'honestly' know anyone who can lay hands on the 'physically' sick and they will recover? Of course, we know there are those who claim that they can, and there are those who blindly believe every story that they hear concerning it, but truthfully speaking, who has such power? The claims of being able to speak in tongues and of an ability to physically heal by laying on hands, are generally trademarks of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements/word of faith movement. But if these were really the "signs" that should follow those who believe, then we would have to say that the gospel is a MISERABLE failure, because these signs are non-existent today. LAst time I check, the hospitals are running over with sicj folks who need healing, children hospitals likewise are full, needing healing. Where are these signs and where are the believers doing them. Are they all in those cult-like movements? No, because God has not promised that those who believe will show the sign of being able to physically heal by laying on hands.Toward the end of Paul's ministry, Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for his often infirmities, revealing that such healing was on its way out. 

Red, red, Red.

You are over thinking it; and in the process denying the plain meaning of the scripture.  THere is nothing in there that says someone would have the power IN THEMSELVES.  And nothing that says God will heal someone EVERY TIME.  The signs FOLLOW.  You do not have a highway exit sign every 6 inches.  You have a few scattered along the way. 

As to the hospitals being full, even our Lord was stopped from healing on occasion: 

Mark 6:5
And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.

It was due to unbelief.  IMO unbelief is rampant in the church today because of the modern western scientific mindset and world view.  We can believe God to save us in eternity; but not to make any changes in the time/space world we live in now.

[yogi bear]

Red you asked of me

Yogi, how is a person twisting scriptures (such as the ones we are discussing) when one party uses scriptures to interpret scriptures, while the person accusing a person of twisting the scriptures, does not at least show the person his use of the scripture to prove his doctrine is wrong by using other scriptures to point the error out? If you are going to accuse me of twisting scriptures then at least take the scriptures I use to show how they are wrongly used to teach the doctrine I'm claiming it teaches

Red you as well as me and anyone else can take a scripture and jerk it out of it context and try to fit it with other scripture to try and make their point. That is what you are doing with the signs.


Mark 16:17,18
17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
RB lets tick with what this passage is talking about it is the miraculous signs given nothing more but the signs that were given to confirm the word 
Acts 5:12 At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon's portico.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Acts chapters 3 and 4 give more examples of what the signs were and how they were used. 

Red you are pulling scripture from all over and trying to change the meaning of the gifts that are being talked about trying to make it a parable a mystic underlying meaning that scripture in full context does not support,

Everyone of the miraculous gifts are recorded as being used and do not have any mystical meaning other than what is recorded your drinking of poison is the only that is not recorded other than your miss use of it in James.

We read of where they cast out demons nothing mystic or a parable about it just plain casting out demons in Christ name you should already know the scripture so excuse me for not looking it up

We read where they spoke with new tongues nothing but another language nothing mystic or no parable just another language and again you should know the scriptures so forgive me for not looking them up.

We read where Paul got bit by a deadly serpent I already posted that fulfillment of the prophesy

The only thing they did not record as happening was the drinking of deadly poison But your James passage is not dealing with this but of another problem in the body you can not squeeze it in here just because it has similar language.


Red you made this statement

Yogi, I can assure you if the apostles (since you want to limit this to them) drank any deadly thing they would die! and so would you or me, or any other person.

Red first off it is not me limiting it to the Apostles scripture does that and many to prove it with.

Second I believe what God has recorded even though I find no place where it was recorded if God said that if they had drank any deadly thing it would not have hurt them.
I do not recall scripture saying this did happen or not but it is recorded that had it been it would have been of no harm and I place my faith that it is correct.

We read they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. We read in scripture where that happens just as recorded and again you should know the scripture so please forgive me for not looking them up.

Now I am sure you can search and find scripture that you think supports your parables and mystic teaching but if you let the bible do the talking it answers all these questions with a sentence or two where as it takes you two or more paragraphs to explain why the do not say what face value says the say.


Red you made the statement

If a person takes up a deadly serpent, ( Paul did not take it up as the snake handler does, to show his faith, it simply lacked on to them while gathering sticks ) he's putting his life in danger, the scriptures do not offer protection to such fanatics~yet God's children walk among little serpent that are children of the old serpent and God protect them from them~ these signs follow all of God's children and have since the beginning of time.

See here Red you start off right and I agree with most of what you posted here. Yes Paul did not pick it up but was bit by a deadly snake and did not die just as was foretold. That I agree with you.

"If a person takes up a deadly serpent, he's putting his life in danger, the scriptures do not offer protection to such fanatics" This also I agree with

"yet God's children walk among little serpent that are children of the old serpent and God protect them from them~ these signs follow all of God's children and have since the beginning of time." This is where you leave context and start adding to what was recorded. Context simply meant actual serpents no mystic meaning no parable hidden just simply snake and verified by scripture in Acts 28:3-6

Red you made the statement

Yogi, not disagreeing that the apostles had supernatural powers that no one possess post the apostles.

Glad we can agree here brother

Then you made this statement

For around forty years after the death of Christ, special miracles and wonders were performed by the apostles, that no longer exist, or are available for us. During the period of reformation (Christ's death and the setting up of Gentile churches) God gave such miracles and wonder, and signs, to confirm that Christ's religion is now the religion of Heaven, and Judaism is no longer needed or even accepted. 

Yes amen brother this is what I am trying to get across In agree with you here.

Then you made the statement

Yet Mark 16,17,18 are different signs that follow all believers including the apostles, and down to the least member of the churches of the Gentiles! 

Here we differ in view. As you said above the Apostle had the gifts that was given in Mark 16 as I pointed out each gift was recorded as have being used and gave scripture to prove and shown it was just the miraculous gift and why it was given It was to CONFIRM the WORD you keep trying to change that but it recorded They had a purpose TO confirm the word. That is all you cannot change that
You also keep adding the all but scripture does not say that it says those that believe not all those that believe is the church (the body of Christ) in that body it could be one or more that have the gifts but is DOES not say that ALL will get these gifts. WE have to keep true to scripture and not add or change the wording. Yes the gentiles also had hands laid on them to transfer these gift for building of the churches but the need has expired for all.

[yogi bear]

Fed I took this from reply #65 above 

Assuming we're all rational people here, do you 'honestly' know anyone who can lay hands on the 'physically' sick and they will recover? Of course, we know there are those who claim that they can, and there are those who blindly believe every story that they hear concerning it, but truthfully speaking, who has such power? The claims of being able to speak in tongues and of an ability to physically heal by laying on hands, are generally trademarks of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements/word of faith movement. But if these were really the "signs" that should follow those who believe, then we would have to say that the gospel is a MISERABLE failure, because these signs are non-existent today. Last time I check, the hospitals are running over with sick folks who need healing, children hospitals likewise are full, needing healing. Where are these signs and where are the believers doing them. Are they all in those cult-like movements? No, because God has not promised that those who believe will show the sign of being able to physically heal by laying on hands.

Admittedly this is all I read because you went off the cliff already so I did not feel the need to read all your gibberish.

I agree with the fact that laying on of hands has ceased but to go as far as to say "But if these were really the "signs" that should follow those who believe, then we would have to say that the gospel is a MISERABLE failure, because these signs are non-existent today. " I have to say you need to get back to context. You take "These signs will accompany those who have believed: and try to make it say all that believe to this day but that is not what it says it says that it was for a purpose the purpose being to confirm the WORD  it never did say anything about being around to till the end of time but only to confirm the word once then word was confirmed it was no longer needed it severed its purpose. You have to keep things in context and stop adding your thoughts to them.

I agree that those that are trying to keep it alive in there teaching are wrong but it did have a biblical reason which has been fulfilled and no longer practiced. It was never to last forever but only until the word was confirmed.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Jesus' brothers? Where? Not the book of James, he was an apostle, and one of the main pillars of the church at Jerusalem. So, where

Jude.