Mark 16:17-20

[RB]

And yes, I could quote 2 Peter 3:9, but of course you would twist those words as well and call it context.  However, your context is not scripture but Calvin.

4WD, I have never read what Calvin taught on 2nd Peter 3:9 as far as I can remember, maybe I have, but whatever he had said about it I cannot recall. But, since you brought up Calvin, let us see for ourselves, shall we?

"But the Lord is not slack, or, delays not. He checks extreme and unreasonable haste by another reason, that is, that the Lord defers his coming that he might invite all mankind to repentance. For our minds are always prurient, and a doubt often creeps in, why he does not come sooner. But when we hear that the Lord, in delaying, shews a concern for our salvation, and that he defers the time because he has a care for us, there is no reason why we should any longer complain of tardiness. He is tardy who allows an occasion to pass by through slothfulness: there is nothing like this in God, who in the best manner regulates time to promote our salvation. And as to the duration of the whole world, we must think exactly the same as of the life of every individual; for God by prolonging time to each, sustains him that he may repent. In the like manner he does not hasten the end of the world, in order to give to all time to repent.

This is a very necessary admonition, so that we may learn to employ time aright, as we shall otherwise suffer a just punishment for our idleness.

Not willing that any should perish. So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way.

But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this, my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world. [179]

But as the verb chorosai is often taken passively by the Greeks, no less suitable to this passage is the verb which I have put in the margin, that God would have all, who had been before wandering and scattered, to be gathered or come together to repentance."

Regardless, of what you constantly accuse me of, I actually do it very little, that is, follow what Calvin said blindly, for as great as a teacher he was, he also brought much baggage, or, I should say garbage out of the RCC with him, along with the mighty Martin Luther who preached the same truths of human depravity and God's election of grace that Calvin taught. I have read behind many of them yet compared what they say to the word of God, knowing the weakness of the human flesh, regardless of a man's great faith. My understanding of...

2nd Peter 3:9~"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Yes, context does drive the truth of what the speaker, or writer is saying~"usward in Peter's writing tell us whom Peter is referencing...we find our answer here:

2nd Peter 1:3,4~"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

The usward of 2nd Peter 3:9 are the children of God's promises chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Mock if you will and you think it is the best way to explain away the truth, but God will hold you accountable for doing so.

So, I do not follow what Calvin had taught, but do have the advantage of five hundred years of men pondering such scriptures and coming to the knowledge of its truth more perfectly than some of those great men of God.

There is some truth to what you say there.  However, the real question is of those God hates, why does He hate them?

4WD, he could have left ALL in their sins as he saw them fallen in Adam, yet according to His own will, He purposes to have mercy on some, he was not indebted to show mercy to any~he created Adam upright and placed him and his wife in a paradise with one little commandment to keep, yet he disobeys as soon as God left him to himself. We were in Adam according to God's infinite wisdom of knowing that it was man's best opportunity to obey WITHOUT HAVING A SINFUL FLESH TO HINDER HIM IN OBEYING. Adam's flesh he was created in was not at enmity against God but became so at the very point of disobedience. Enough on this for now.

You say, because of your twisting and distortion to align with Calvin, that it has nothing to do with them; it has only to do with God.  That is wrong. 

No, never ever hinted to that reason, it has everything to do with man's disobedience~per Romans 5, etc. God created our father Adam upright as I just said above.

That is wrong.  They do not reject Him because He hates them; rather He hates them because they reject Him. Calvin's distortion is an affront to God.

Okay, that is what I just said, I have never said sinners reject God because he hated them, They hate God because Adam THEIR REPRESENTATIVE BEFORE GOD'S LAW sinned and Adam and his posterity became servants of sin and the devil himself~making them at enmity against God, and the objects of his wrath and hatred. It's not that difficult to understand, much more to receive as truth since it takes Divine revelation to cause one to see and accept as the truth.

If God is demanding that from us, there is simply no way to imagine that God would do any less.

4WD, God is good to all, He causes rain to rain on BOTH the just and unjust, and many such things He does. That being said, the problem is not with God but MAN, who became at enmity against God and all that God stands for and demands from his creation.

Calvin says that God hates His enemies, but you must love your enemies. What a joke. And you believe him, not scripture.

You are making false accusations against a man you truly have no clue as to what he believed and I can say for certain that is not his beliefs~but, I'm not called to defend a man but God's word. Nevertheless, I have never read anything remotely close to what you are saying Calvin believed written by him, or Martin Luther, who was much bolder than Calvin, and with less prudence in his writings. John Calvin excelled with prudence so much more than I could ever dream of doing. 

As far as believing Calvin over the scriptures, then you are showing that you do not know me very well~hardly any to be truthful. 

[RB]

So, where is Yogi who started this thread, are you finished with it?

[yogi bear]

So, where is Yogi who started this thread, are you finished with it?

This thread has gone way beyond what Yogi started so he is lurking to see where it goes next.

[4WD]

Regardless, of what you constantly accuse me of, I actually do it very little, that is, follow what Calvin said blindly

RB, I don't think that I have ever accused you of following blindly what Calvin said.  I also don't think I have actually accused you of following Calvin.  However, much of what you teach is very much the same as what Calvin taught.  What differences there may be between what you teach and what Calvin teaches is not something that I am concerned with.  The point in my referencing Calvin in my discussions with you is that you both begin with the false doctrine of Total Depravity.  So where you might divert from Calvin is all rather beside the point.  It is the fact that you both tend to distort the various passages relating to soteriology to make them align with Total Depravity.,

So, I do not follow what Calvin had taught, but do have the advantage of five hundred years of men pondering such scriptures and coming to the knowledge of its truth more perfectly than some of those great men of God. 4WD, he could have left ALL in their sins as he saw them fallen in Adam,  yet according to His own will, He purposes to have mercy on some, he was not indebted to show mercy to any....

That is such a bogus argument.  Let's say you come upon a family, a father, a mother and four children, stranded on a desert island and who are literally starving to death.  Now you have a boat and plenty of food for all of them, but you choose to rescue and give food only to the father and one of the children, leaving the rest on the island to starve to death even though you plenty of room on the boat and had food enough for all.  Would any call you merciful?  I certainly wouldn't. And I don't think that you would either, but that is the picture you present of God.

...he created Adam upright and placed him and his wife in a paradise with one little commandment to keep, yet he disobeys as soon as God left him to himself. We were in Adam according to God's infinite wisdom of knowing that it was man's best opportunity to obey WITHOUT HAVING A SINFUL FLESH TO HINDER HIM IN OBEYING. Adam's flesh he was created in was not at enmity against God but became so at the very point of disobedience. Enough on this for now.

And there is the perfect example of the distortion of scripture you posit in order to align it with the false doctrine of Total Depravity.  If sinful flesh is what causes disobedience and Adam was without sinful flesh to hinder him in obeying, then why didn't he obey.  That irrational reasoning comes from the false concept of "sinful flesh".  And the notion that "we were in Adam" and therefore guilty of Adam's sin is but another distortion that derives from the false teaching of Total Depravity. 

No, never ever hinted to that reason, it has everything to do with man's disobedience~per Romans 5, etc. God created our father Adam upright as I just said above. Okay, that is what I just said, I have never said sinners reject God because he hated them, They hate God because Adam THEIR REPRESENTATIVE BEFORE GOD'S LAW sinned and Adam and his posterity became servants of sin and the devil himself~making them at enmity against God, and the objects of his wrath and hatred.

More crap derived, not from scripture, but from the false notion of Total Depravity.  And if you would read and correctly understand Romans 5, you would see your error in that. But you don't; your instead impose your false doctrine of Total Depravity on Romans 5.

It's not that difficult to understand,

No it is not that difficult to understand, but you don't because you insist upon inserting Total Depravity into it.

I will perhaps come back to the issue of 2 Peter 3:9 later where you have implicitly inserted the concept of Total Depravity.

[Texas Conservative]

How much depravity is there in being spiritually dead?

[4WD]

How much depravity is there in being spiritually dead?

It is not about depravity.  It is about Total Depravity supposedly imposed upon the descendants of Adam. Man is depraved, but he is not born that way.  He becomes depraved when he sins and becomes spiritually dead.

[yogi bear]

Red here is the deal why I am lurking more than debating.

You see me as quoting scripture and not giving the sense of scripture whereas you post scripture and give pages of your sense of scripture. I agree that scripture needs to make sense whereas my difference to yours is I think scripture makes sense all in of itself and does not need my input to make it clear.

I agree that we see scripture differently but I understood it as to me the way it was recorded without having to explain it in page after page detail why I see it saying what it says.
I understand I have had this view for ages and it is hard to see it any other way (but I admit I have been corrected on some things) but I hope I am still seeking with an open mind. I know you do not think that is the case but it is what I strive to do.

I see you as having your view for just as long if not longer and there is no changing your mind as well. I think you have blinders that are causing you to miss the message as well as you do me. I think as WD4 has said you approach the scripture with a view and try to make the scriptures fit that view rather than take them at face value. You spend paragraph after paragraph trying to re-change the face value of scripture to make it fit what you think it should say to fit your preconceived view of your own doctrine. I feel you have a closed mind and think there is  no way you could be wrong there for you have to give unbiblical sense to most passages in the bible.

With that said that is why I lurk more than engage with you cause there is no way we are going to agree on scripture because you more than me think scripture is not clear and we can not take it at face value. Therefore what is the point if scripture does not mean what was recorded but you have to give it a different sense?

Maybe others can tell me if I am further away from face value of scriptures for my sake of understanding as they see it we both cant be right so if you follow my posting and I am not following what scripture teaches then please tell Me Red is correct and I need to open my eyes with scriptural support. I do not want to be wise on my own understanding and truly miss the message God is proclaim. Please if I puffed up in my own understanding against what God is proclaiming tell me.

I just don't think Red is fully relying on Gods message but is blinded by his own understanding and I don't want to be there is all I am saying and I know that nis a judgement call of my own from what I believe scripture teach.

[yogi bear]

Just seen a quote I have to share

"Stupid is Knowing the truth, seeing then truth, but still believing the lies."  (Author unknown)

Just hoping this does not apply to us here. Think about it for a second and search your heart for the truth.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

It is not about depravity.  It is about Total Depravity supposedly imposed upon the descendants of Adam. Man is depraved, but he is not born that way.  He becomes depraved when he sins and becomes spiritually dead.

Whenever I see something about depravity there always seems to be an assumption that depravity is part of the nature of a man. 

I think depravity is more a question of upbringing.  The son of an alcoholic stands a greater chance of becoming an alcoholic.  He inherited it, sure, but not through genetics.  It's a matter of growing up watching someone drink to excess and seeing that as normal.

Jarrod

[RB]

Whenever I see something about depravity there always seems to be an assumption that depravity is part of the nature of a man. 

No assumption, man is born depraved, you do not need to teach children to lie, steal, or be selfish, etc. it comes naturally. They do not need to see it to be that way~it is true, being around wickedness, etc. can bring it OUT OF A PERSON, much quicker, but it is not the root cause of folks doing wickedness, it is IN THE FLESH, and opportunity and others not taught to the scriptures (which only restrain it somewhat) are means of putting sin in actions more so one can fulfill its lust.

Romans 7:18a~"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:"

Not even one good thing dwells within our flesh, regardless what folks assume, and want to believe, and false prophets tell them.

I think depravity is more a question of upbringing.

You got to be kidding! The sad part, is I know you are not. Jarrod, you can take the godliest family you know, and they may have a wicked son or daughter..... most of the time it is the male that shows his depraved heart the most. Forget about folks you know, consider the scriptures~men like Samuel, David, and even God's own people in the OT~Israel, whom God was a father too, yet look at their overall history! They did not learn their wickedness by reading Moses' words given to them by God, now did they?  They received their depraved heart from Adam! When left to themselves, they would never give God any thoughts, and truly detest the very thought of doing so!

I'll stop for now for I'm sure this is just getting started.

[RB]

Just seen a quote I have to share

"Stupid is Knowing the truth, seeing then truth, but still believing the lies."  (Author unknown)

Just hoping this does not apply to us here. Think about it for a second and search your heart for the truth.

I think it is more being proud and rebellious than being stupid~but, it is good that we search our own hearts and the scriptures to make sure we are following the word of God, trusting God to be our helper.

[RB]

You see me as quoting scripture and not giving the sense of scripture whereas you post scripture and give pages of your sense of scripture. I agree that scripture needs to make sense whereas my difference to yours is I think scripture makes sense all in of itself and does not need my input to make it clear.

Actually Yogi, my posts are relativity short if you ask me~ But, of course, it is not what I think, but what others think that counts. So, sorry if I have not learned to minimize my words to get my point across clearly and with an understanding that could profit my readers, which is my only desire, so help me God. 

Concerning giving the scriptures their proper sense, so men can understand them~I have one word to add to this...it is our calling if we profess to speak on God's behalf, this is what men of God are called to do, yogi.

Matthew 13:51,52~"Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Jesus' main mission was to teach so that men could understand the words of God.

Mark 4:34~"But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Which means he gave the true sense of the parables to them, not to all!  Without a man of God properly expounded scriptures, the surface words have very little profit for most of the folks who read them~that's why folk is constantly seeking out other bibles because many say the KJV is hard to understand~when in truth it was never given to be easy to understand, that's why we are to STUDY, not just read the scriptures, reading alone profits a little, studying, seeking out its true meaning is where we find treasures, not until then. Many ministers only give old leftover food to their congregation with very few new recipes.  So much more could be said, but enough for now.

Yogi, not going to comment on the rest of your post, and I'm not here to judge you and why you do as you do, that's between you and the God of heaven and your own conscience. I accept your sincerity since I cannot see into your heart and have no desire to do so, and certainly no desire to judge another man over such things.

May God reward any person who seeks him with all of their heart, soul, and mind. I believe he will.

[RB]

RB, I don't think that I have ever accused you of following blindly what Calvin said.

I'll come back today, maybe soon, and post to you. I have a few things to say.

[RB]

How much depravity is there in being spiritually dead?

Great question~"Total" toward spiritual understanding...void of true wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. But, it is even worse than that, such a person is enmity against God, not just an enemy, which is bad enough, but such a person is at war against the God of heaven, a servant of sin, and the devil himself, a lover of darkness and unrighteousness.

Romans 8:7,8~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

[RB]

It is not about depravity.  It is about Total Depravity supposedly imposed upon the descendants of Adam. Man is depraved, but he is not born that way.  He becomes depraved when he sins and becomes spiritually dead.

If he was born of flesh through ADAM then he is born that way. Christ was conceived NOT through Adam, but by the Holy Ghost, and major difference. Christ was begotten by the power of the Highest. You and I were begotten by our fathers through Adam.

Isaiah 7:14~"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

[RB]

It is not about depravity.  It is about Total Depravity supposedly imposed upon the descendants of Adam. Man is depraved, but he is not born that way.  He becomes depraved when he sins and becomes spiritually dead.

4WD, before I start I want you to read this: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/depravity-yes-total-depravity-no-way

To show you just how much you align yourself with Catholicism on this doctrine. Almost word for word.

I may take this subject to another thread since it is beginning to go that way.

[4WD]

If he was born of flesh through ADAM then he is born that way. Christ was conceived NOT through Adam, but by the Holy Ghost, and major difference. Christ was begotten by the power of the Highest. You and I were begotten by our fathers through Adam.

Christ was born of flesh through Adam.  Mary was flesh through Adam.  "That which is born of flesh is flesh..." (John 3:6).
Once again, you distort Scripture in order to make it align with the false doctrine of Total Depravity.

On several occasions, you have testified that Jesus was fully human and fully God.  Well if, in your assertions, the human is born Totally Depraved and Jesus was not, then clearly Jesus was not fully human.  The truth is that Jesus was born fully human, because humans are not born totally depraved.  They are not born depraved at all; but become depraved through their sin.

[4WD]

4WD, before I start I want you to read this: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/depravity-yes-total-depravity-no-way

To show you just how much you align yourself with Catholicism on this doctrine. Almost word for word.

I may take this subject to another thread since it is beginning to go that way.

I don't need to read that to know that Catholic doctrine, like you, states that all are born with original sin.  But then that is not as bad as born totally depraved.

[Rella]

Concerning giving the scriptures their proper sense, so men can understand them~I have one word to add to this...it is our calling if we profess to speak on God's behalf, this is what men of God are called to do,

  Jesus' main mission was to teach so that men could understand the words of God.Which means he gave the true sense of the parables to them, not to all! 

Without a man of God properly expounded scriptures, the surface words have very little profit for most of the folks who read them~that's why folk is constantly seeking out other bibles because many say the KJV is hard to understand~when in truth it was never given to be easy to understand, that's why we are to STUDY, not just read the scriptures, reading alone profits a little, studying, seeking out its true meaning is where we find treasures, not until then.

It has been my observation to see that every man here who comments on anything from the 4 corners of the bible believes , within his own heart, that he is properly "expounding" the very scriptures that you disagree over.

So please tell me and other readers how we are to discern which of you is right?

[yogi bear]

Rella the only way is to see which is more in line with scripture than the other. It should not take several paragraphs to tell what scripture is saying, if it does it is a red flag. God spoke clearly and it was recorded the way God spoke it ,it does not need to have paragraph after paragraph to explain what was said.  Mans doctrine might need all the added paragraphs but not the word of God its was recorded clearly for all to read.

That is why we are told to study the word, not others teaching, but the word for it is the truth just the way it was recorded. It is plain to understand it is not written in parables to confuse as some might have you to believe but plainly spoken to teach you God's will for mankind.

God gave the sense in what he had recorded ,man wants to give it a different sense to fit his doctrine, so you have to go back to the word and see what it says it is really not that hard to understand if you let the scriptures do the talking. You have to take them at face value there is no hidden secret it is spelled out quite nicely if you take it at its face value and not try to add any preconceived ideals into it.

We are to judge if man is speaking the oracles of God or his own message distorted from God's word. We are to study to tell that man is speaking against or different from God's word. It does not mean we have to study to find the secret of God's word but the truth in comparison to what man is proclaiming the scriptures say. In other words is man speaking the oracles of God's word or distorting them.
It is not Gods word that is in question it is how man is handling the word of God.

[RB]

It has been my observation to see that every man here who comments on anything from the 4 corners of the bible believes , within his own heart, that he is properly "expounding" the very scriptures that you disagree over.

So please tell me and other readers how we are to discern which of you is right?

Rella, you are asking a two-thousand-year-old question.

John 7:12~"And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people."

There will always be questions about WHO IS RIGHT~WHO HAS THE TRUTH~who is in error? My best answer to you would be for a person to seek God in earnest prayer while searching the scriptures to see if what you are hearing is the truth, or not.

Acts 17:11~"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few."

Show yourself to be a noble believer by searching the scriptures and SEE if those things are so, and by doing these things one should come to the knowledge of the truth to some degree.

[RB]

Rella the only way is to see which is more in line with scripture than the other. It should not take several paragraphs to tell what scripture is saying, if it does it is a red flag. God spoke clearly and it was recorded the way God spoke it ,it does not need to have paragraph after paragraph to explain what was said.  Mans doctrine might need all the added paragraphs but not the word of God its was recorded clearly for all to read.

Yogi, your post is somewhat like scrambled eggs~maybe you meant "over easy".... but sorry to inform you, it did not come out that way.

Yogi, just be thankful you have not read very much behind many Reformers, of even bible theologians of the past three hundred years or so. They never wrote in a few words on any subject, yet when they were finished the subject was generally thoroughly covered. So, what is your problem with a few words that I post in comparison to the many volumes of books written on particular doctrines that past men of God end up discussing. I know this is a forum and our post should be as short as possbile~and I think I do that in comparison to other forums I read on.

Also, the word of God was NOT written for all, as you said....only for BELIEVERS and TO believers. 

One more point~much of the bible (the prophets and Revelation just to mention some) IS written in dark sayings and parables and highly symbolic language. Do I need to prove this to you? Also, Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21, 2nd Thess. etc.

That is why we are told to study the word, not others teaching, but the word for it is the truth just the way it was recorded. It is plain to understand it is not written in parables to confuse as some might have you to believe but plainly spoken to teach you God's will for mankind.

Yogi, sir, those words are so unwise on your part to say.  Not written in parables? Yogi, you need to report back to the elementary teachings of God's word, for somewhere you missed it.

Oh well, enough said.

[RB]

Christ was born of flesh through Adam.  Mary was flesh through Adam.  "That which is born of flesh is flesh..." (John 3:6). Once again, you distort Scripture in order to make it align with the false doctrine of Total Depravity.

Jesus came in the "Likeness of sinful flesh", yes through Mary, but God begot him, so, he did not come through Adam as you and I did!

Romans 8:3~"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Christ was not born with a sinful flesh as ALL of Adam's posterity are. You are so wrong thinking Christ was born of flesh through Adam. God was his Father, not Adam.

On several occasions, you have testified that Jesus was fully human and fully God.

He IS. God through God being his Father,.....human... coming in the likeness of sinful flesh through Mary his mother. , yet WITHOUT the sinful nature, we ALL are born with.

Well if, in your assertions, the human is born Totally Depraved and Jesus was not, then clearly Jesus was not fully human.

Just explained this above. Truly, it is very simple to see, IF, one did not hold on to his biased doctrine of man not being born in sin.

The truth is that Jesus was born fully human, because humans are not born totally depraved.

No man born of the flesh had God aa his father in the manner Jesus Christ did~he was the ONLY begotten son of God, begotten in the manner in which Jesus was begotten according to Luke 1.

Luke 1:30-35~"And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Again, Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God, he did not come through the first Adam's posterity. Fully God, fully man through Mary his mother.

They are not born depraved at all; but become depraved through their sin.

Really? God said otherwise...They come forth speaking lies and hating others ~we MUST teach them to love, share, and think of others above themselves, etc.

Psalms 58:3~"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Enough said for now.

[4WD]

God was his Father, not Adam. He IS. God through God being his Father,.....human... coming in the likeness of sinful flesh through Mary his mother. , yet WITHOUT the sinful nature, we ALL are born with.

Oh come on now, RB. There is neither scripture nor science to support that contention.  What is a sinful nature other than being human?

[4WD]

Really? God said otherwise...They come forth speaking lies and hating others ~we MUST teach them to love, share, and think of others above themselves, etc. Enough said for now.

Maybe your kids were more advanced than mine. My kids didn't really speak intelligently for quite a while after "they came forth".  And they didn't even really know and understand what a lie was, let alone speak lies, for several years after that. I think you need to rethink what you see as the message there.

[RB]

Oh come on now, RB. There is neither scripture nor science to support that contention. 

I do not need science to tell me if it is correct, or not. My oldest grandson just got a job in D.C. level 2 scientist~he comes to me if he desires a bible answer to a question he may have~I go to him to ask a question on diseases.

What is a sinful nature other than being human?

Well, if I go into details yogi would tell me that my answer must be a lie since it took more than one or two paragraphs to expalin~so, let me say this: It is the image of the devil himself~without spiritual knowledge, wisdom, and understanding~God's image consists perfection in all of these that's past searching out.

It is a nature Christ was separate from.....

Hebrews 7:26~"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;"

So, Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh"~in other words, sin did not dwell in his body, in thought, word, and deeds as it does in our, EVEN IN our goldiest moment of, praying, preaching, witnessing, etc, we cannot separate ourselves from the presence of INDWELLING SIN, impossible. I would that we could, but to our shame, we cannot, and something our thoughts embarrass us and shames us.

Maybe your kids were more advanced than mine. My kids didn't really speak intelligently for quite a while after "they came forth".

No, you just are not calling sin for what it is. Example: One of my little ones was put to bed, and no sooner had I left the room than she started screaming~nothing wrong with her, clean diaper, full belly, she just was not ready to do as her father wanted her to do. You say that's not sinning, well it is~how about when they are about two or three, a little older and one of the two children playing spilled something they were not supposed to be getting into~each blames the other and one of them actually did it~is that sinning? How about taking something that they know belongs to the other, yet they want it, is that sinning? Yes, they come forth from their mother's womb sinning, because sin dwells within their members. We can restain sin from ruling over them through discipline, but we cannot remove it from their members, impossible~sinful lust even is present in them, yet to a much lesser degree than adults, nevertheless, it is there.

[4WD]

so, let me say this: It is the image of the devil himself~without spiritual knowledge, wisdom, and understanding~God's image consists perfection in all of these that's past searching out.

That is pure speculation on your part.  You can't find that in scripture either. 

It is a nature Christ was separate from.....

More speculation and no scripture.

So, Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh"~in other words, sin did not dwell in his body, in thought, word, and deeds as it does in our, EVEN IN our goldiest moment of, praying, preaching, witnessing, etc, we cannot separate ourselves from the presence of INDWELLING SIN, impossible. I would that we could, but to our shame we cannot, and something our thoughts embarrass us and shames us.

RB, You do have a really sick view of God's creation.  If we are unable to separate ourselves from the presence of indwelling sin then how can God hold us responsible for the presence of indwelling sin.  Given all the indwelling sin of the human being, then how was Jesus in the likeness of sinful flesh at all?  If indwelling sin is the characteristic of the human being, how can it be that Jesus was fully human and yet separate from that key characteristic? You are just making stuff up to fit you own unscriptural view of things.

No, you just are not calling sin for what it is. Example: One of my little ones was put to bed, and no sooner had I left the room than she started screaming~nothing wrong with her, clean diaper, full belly, she just was not really to do as her father wanted her to do. You say that's not sinning, well it is~how about when they are about two or three, a little older and one of the two children playing spilled something they were not supposed to be getting into~each blames the other and one of them actually did it~is that sinning? How about taking something that they know belongs to the other, yet they want it,? Is that sinning? Yes, they come forth from their mother's womb sinning, because sin dwells within their members. We can restain sin from ruling over them through discipline, but we cannot remove it from their members, impossible~sinful lust even is presence in them, yet on a much lessor degree than adults, nevertheless it is there.

None of that is sin.  Sin is disobedience of God's law.

From 1 John 3:4 : "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness." . Jesus uses this term when he pronounces eternal condemnation upon those "who practice lawlessness" (Matt 7:23; see 13:41).

I doubt that it means anything to you but of the several Greek words used in the Bible to describe sin the on that best summarizes the essence of sin is ἀνομία [anomia]. The Greek word for law is νομος [nomos]. The alpha or a in front of it makes it ἄνομος [anomos], the negative of law or lawless.  I could take you through the other Greek words used for sin but again the essence of sin is lawlessness. 

None of the actions you described for your infant or small children constitute sin.  There is no way that God would hold such children accountable for something they could not possibly even be aware of. Paul said in Romans 4:15 that  "the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression". Where is there no law?  Clearly there is no law in the child too young to know and understand law and its consequences. It could also be said of the person too feeble of mind to know and understand law and its consequences.

You said that we can restrain sin from ruling over them through discipline.   That is true, but the first lesson of discipline is teaching them to know and understand the rules. Paul said, What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet" (Rom 7:7)

He continued there to say, But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.

Unless and until you have taught you children the rules any discipline is useless.  They will understand it only as cruelty. How could they not?

[4WD]

And with that, I must agree with yogi that this topic has wandered far off of the original track of Mark 16:17-20.

[DaveW]

I thought Aramaic originated with the ancient Chaldeans and was absorbed into Babylonia where it was picked up by the Jewish people during the captivity.  Am I wrong?

Aramaic was ancient Hebrew modified by the 70 years of Babylonian captivity.  It is about half way between Hebrew and Arabic. Chaldean was the predecessor of ancient Hebrew.

If you believe the Chassidic and ultra orthodox Jewish theologians, Biblical Hebrew was the language spoken before the Babel incident.  So it was the mother of all other languages.

[4WD]

 

Yes, I would not be surprised at all that the Chassidic and ultra orthodox Jewish theologians believe that Biblical Hebrew was the mother of all other languages.  That such Jews believe that Jews were always and still are the chosen nation of God is not surprising at all.

[RB]

Yes, I would not be surprised at all that the Chassidic and ultra orthodox Jewish theologians believe that Biblical Hebrew was the mother of all other languages.  That such Jews believe that Jews were always and still are the chosen nation of God is not surprising at all.

What's surprising to me is that Gentiles believe it too!

[RB]

And with that, I must agree with yogi that this topic has wandered far off of the original track of Mark 16:17-20.

It was not yogi that said this, I did, yet we might as well continue since yogi jumped ship. 

So, you get the last word? 

Can I take your last post and start another thread? Or, better yet, you do it.

[4WD]

Can I take your last post and start another thread?

Of course. Please do.  I am not sure what last point you are referring to, but no matter.  Please procede.

[yogi bear]

It was not yogi that said this, I did, yet we might as well continue since yogi jumped ship. 

I beg your pardon Yogi Did not jump ship you changed the topic Yogi was talking about the gifts of Mark 16:17-20 nothing you are talking about now has anything to do with what Yogi was talking about so Yogi shut up and let you rattle.

[RB]

I beg your pardon Yogi Did not jump ship you changed the topic Yogi was talking about the gifts of Mark 16:17-20 nothing you are talking about now has anything to do with what Yogi was talking about so Yogi shut up and let you rattle.

No, it was not me that changed the topic it was Mr. 4WD~See Mark 16:17-20  « Reply #178 on: Sat Aug 06, 2022 - 07:58:51

I agree it got off topic, but before it did you still stop, go back and check. Probably wise on your part to stop when you have no defense,

Luke 20:26~"And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace."