Mark 16:17-20

[yogi bear]

Probly because your replies are out of context and pulled out of the blue with out scriptural support and already have discussed this with you before to no avail so just doing as the Lord said and dusting the dust of my feet and not debating in vain.

[e.r.m.]

Deleted

[e.r.m.]

RB,

Our baptism is a confession to the eyes of men like the gospel is to their ears that we believe the record that God gave of his Son...

Did anyone in the Bible believe this purpose for baptism in water in Jesus's name?

Would you please cite and quote scriptures that state the purpose for baptism in water in Jesus's name, (which was commanded beginning at the Great Commission, Pentecost, and onward)? The passage(s) needs to include the word baptism or a derivative thereof (e.g.- baptized).

[RB]

RB, Did anyone in the Bible believe this purpose for baptism in water in Jesus' name?

It stands to reason they did. My question to you would be....Edward, why else would they be baptized? Just to get wet? Water baptism is saying more than I want to be among those who professed to believe in Jesus' name. Regardless of what is going through a person's mind at baptism, if they have been instructed properly (which most are not) they are saying I believe the record God gave of his Son in the word of God. 1st John 5:6-10....

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son."

But, since you asked a direct question, let me add one more thought to this. What would a person be saying to those who watch a person being baptized? Let Paul answer this for us.

1st Corinthians 15:29~"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

Edward, you know 1st Corinthians well I'm sure. There were some at Corinth that was saying that there was no bodily resurrection of the dead. So Paul asks them this question if that is so, then why were you professing to believe in a future resurrection WHEN YOU WERE baptized in water, if it is so, there is no bodily resurrection.

Using 1st Corinthians 15:29~ we know that water baptism teaches us who have watched folks being baptized that they and we shall also be raised from the dead by the same power that resurrected Jesus Christ from the dead.  This is part of the good news of the gospel. So, I said what I said based on such scriptures. There are more if you need more.

[4WD]

e.r.m.,

You and I both know that baptism is for [unto, in order to receive] the forgiveness sin.  That is what John the Baptist taught:

Mark 1:4  John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3  And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

And that was before the New Covenant was inaugurated by Peter and the apostles at Pentecost where he declared that baptism of the repentant believer in the name of Jesus Christ was not only for [unto, in order to receive] the forgiveness of sin, it was also to receive the gift [the indwelling] Holy Spirit.

There is not a single passage of NT scripture which would contradict that fact.

I would point out that I Corinthians 15:29 has not one thing to do with the purpose of baptism.  It has to do with, and only with, the belief in a future resurrection.   Paul there is not even advocating for baptism for the dead there, or anywhere else for that matter; rather, he is only acknowledging that some were in fact doing it. 

[e.r.m.]

4WD

There is not a single passage of NT scripture which would contradict that fact.

I agree. This is why that question is either difficult or impossible to answer for those who don't believe it, as they are stuck with these verses.

[e.r.m.]

RB,

It stands to reason they did.

Then why did no one in the Bible ever state this purpose for baptism in water in Jesus's name?

My question to you would be....Edward, why else would they be baptized? Just to get wet?

For the reasons stated in scripture, that I asked you to cite and quote, which you side stepped. They do exist. Why didn't you find those verses and post them here?

Water baptism is saying more than I want to be among those who professed to believe in Jesus' name. Regardless of what is going through a person's mind at baptism, if they have been instructed properly (which most are not) they are saying I believe the record God gave of his Son in the word of God.

So you reiterate the belief for baptism in water in Jesus's name that you stated before instead of finding and posting the requested scriptures.

1st John 5:6-10....
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son."

Does not mention the word baptism, or any derivative thereof (e.g. - baptized).

But, since you asked a direct question, let me add one more thought to this. What would a person be saying to those who watch a person being baptized? Let Paul answer this for us.

Paul didn't have that experience. Acts 9:18-21 the people found out about Paul's conversion through his preaching not his baptism.

1st Corinthians 15:29~"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
Edward, you know 1st Corinthians well I'm sure. There were some at Corinth that was saying that there was no bodily resurrection of the dead. So Paul asks them this question if that is so, then why were you professing to believe in a future resurrection WHEN YOU WERE baptized in water, if it is so, there is no bodily resurrection.

Using 1st Corinthians 15:29~ we know that water baptism teaches us who have watched folks being baptized that they and we shall also be raised from the dead by the same power that resurrected Jesus Christ from the dead.  This is part of the good news of the gospel. So, I said what I said based on such scriptures. There are more if you need more.

I defer to 4WD's answer.

[RB]

4WD and e.r.m. I will answer both posts tomorrow. RB

[dan p]

 And  all that  were  BAPTIZED  for the  repentance  of  sins , in Acts 2:38 ,  what  SINS  did they  commit , that  Israel  had to be cleansed of , other than KILLING  Jesus ?

And why  than was Jesus  BAPTIZED  for ,  who had  no  SIN ?

dan p

[e.r.m.]

RB, cool.

[e.r.m.]

dan p,

And  all that  were  BAPTIZED  for the  repentance  of  sins , in Acts 2:38 ,  what  SINS  did they  commit , that  Israel  had to be cleansed of , other than KILLING  Jesus ?

Since Jesus was the only person on Earth who had no sin, do you think killing Jesus was the only sin they had to be forgiven of?

And why  than was Jesus  BAPTIZED  for ,  who had  no  SIN ?
dan p

Jesus was the only person in recorded history to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Which is a very different reason everybody else is told to be baptized for.
Acts 2:38-39, etc.[/quote]

[e.r.m.]

dan p,

And  all that  were  BAPTIZED  for the  repentance  of  sins , in Acts 2:38 ,  what  SINS  did they  commit , that  Israel  had to be cleansed of , other than KILLING  Jesus ?

Since Jesus was the only person on earth who had no sin, do you think killing Jesus was the only sin they had to be forgiven of?

And why  than was Jesus  BAPTIZED  for ,  who had  no  SIN ?
dan p

Jesus was the only person in recorded history to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. A very different reason for which everybody else is told to be baptized Acts 2:38-39, etc.

I don't understand why you would ask this question since it is written why Jesus was baptized, and why, on the other hand, other people are baptized in His name.

[dan p]

  I  believe that  Israel  had  to  repent ,

For  some 6000  Years , they  changed the  glory of the  incorruptible  God into  a  likeness of  an  image of  Corruptible  man and  of  Birds , and  four  footed  beasts , and  of  Reptiles and  Rom 1:23- 32  explains why  Israel  had to  repent .

This is to  me  the  easy  part .

Why  than did  Jesus  have  to  be  BAPTIZED ?

Still  doing  my  own  research .

So , Israel  did  not  repent .

Do we  as  GENTILES  have  to  repent ?

I don't  think  so !!

dan p

[e.r.m.]

I  believe that  Israel  had  to  repent ,

For  some 6000  Years , they  changed the  glory of the  incorruptible  God into  a  likeness of  an  image of  Corruptible  man and  of  Birds , and  four  footed  beasts , and  of  Reptiles and  Rom 1:23- 32  explains why  Israel  had to  repent .

This is to  me  the  easy  part .

I agree.

Why  than did  Jesus  have  to  be  BAPTIZED ?

Still  doing  my  own  research .

I agree. It's difficult to flesh out what "to fulfill all righteousness" meant.

So , Israel  did  not  repent .

On judgement day, it will not be by nation, but individually. Many in Israel repented. The church 3000+ included many in Israel.

Do we  as  GENTILES  have  to  repent ?

I don't  think  so !!

dan p

Yes we gentiles do.
Acts 17:19,29-31 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? [29] "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone---an image made by human design and skill. [30] In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. [31] For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead."

[RB]

Still doing my own research.

Dan, you need to stop and close class on this and save yourself some energy. Jesus' baptism proves that the way to salvation is through his person~faith, obedience, and righteousness, secured by his death and resurrection from the dead.

Do we as GENTILES have to repent? I don't think so!!

Dan, closed your research, you are not even learning the first principles of the word of God.

Romans 3:9~"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;"

Dan, you are so far out in touch with what is truth, I'm not sure you will ever find what is truth in your research lab, what is coming out of there is toxic to say it in a nice way.

[dan p]

  I  this  is what  I see   in  Gen  6:6  that  Christ  did  REPENT , that He  made man.

And He  fulfilled all  righteousness as  the  Priest  did all  though the  bible .

In  Ex 30:21  all  Priests , So they  shall  WASH  ( H7364 )  their   Hands , their  FEET  , before doing their  priestly duties , that they  die not and  is a  stature  for  ever ,

In Heb 5:6  says  ,  Thou art  a  priest for  ever the  order of  Melchizedek  and  and this order  will  last  through  the  Millennium .

dan p

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

On judgement day, it will not be by nation, but individually. Many in Israel repented. The church 3000+ included many in Israel.

Israel is not reckoned after the flesh.

[DaveW]

  I  this  is what  I see   in  Gen  6:6  that  Christ  did  REPENT , that He  made man.

Not the best translation. The Hebrew word to repent is teshuva, meaning to turn around and go back, from the root shub meaning to turn.

The word in Gen 6.6 is nacham, which means to feel sorry or remorse. Feeling sorry for doing something is NOT the same as biblical repentance.

[RB]

Would you please cite and quote scriptures that state the purpose for baptism in water in Jesus's name, (which was commanded beginning at the Great Commission, Pentecost, and onward)? The passage(s) needs to include the word baptism or a derivative thereof (e.g.- baptized).

Edward, let me approach your question in this manner, maybe this might satisfy your question, but most likely it will not, nevertheless, let me add more, so you may see why I use the scriptures above the way I did. What follows should prove this to you.

1st Peter 3:21~"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The like figure~There are two figures or pictures here ~ the ark in the previous verse, baptism in this verse. A figure is a symbolic picture representing something in reality (Romans 5:14; Hebrews 9:9). The adjective like indicates the figure of baptism is similar to another figure in context. The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two things being considered. Noah's ark and water baptism are two figures: both are a picture of salvation in Christ. Most translations and commentators have only one figure ~the ark is a figure of baptism! They have a vested interest in baptism not being a figure (like the coc) like all baby sprinklers.

There are a few requirements for a scriptural baptism, and this one verse teaches three of them. The three requirements taught here are the proper subject, mode, and design of baptism. It is amazing to see what modern translations have done to corrupt all three requirements. Around 90-95% of all so-called Christians cannot learn baptism's three requirements.

This verse about baptism is the most definitive verse in the entire Bible about this ordinance. It is amazing to read works on baptism that do not mention this verse or quite neglect it. It is amazing to see what modern translations have done to corrupt all three requirements. Why cannot 90-95% see this simple truth? Tradition above scripture; they will not be fools for Jesus; the truth is for few, like 8 in context; God sends delusion (2nd Thess. 2:9-12).

Baptism is a figure of resurrection, as the verse's grammar requires, and as the Bible teaches. The grammar, by ignoring the parenthetical element, connects the figure to resurrection.

Bible baptism, which is immersion or submersion, is a picture of burial and resurrection. Paul thoroughly identified the burial and resurrection figure of water baptism (Romans 6:3-5).

Without this understanding of baptism=resurrection, you have no hope with Ist Corinthians 15:29.

Whereunto even baptism~Having introduced Noah and the ark for several reasons, Peter applied its figure to baptism. To this point in Ist Peter 3:18-22, no reader could know where he was going until these words.

Doth also now save us~The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two figures are being considered. The ark literally saved from water; Jesus literally saved His elect from the second death. The ark figuratively saved by figuring Jesus; baptism figuratively saves by figuring Jesus.

How does baptism save? It saves figuratively, because baptism has been defined as a figure.

There is real salvation in Jesus Christ's resurrection mentioned in this verse (Rom 4:25). Baptism pictures that resurrection in a figure by its burial and rising again from water.

There is no real saving efficacy, power, value in baptism, for the next clause confirms it. When the Bible says baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16), it only does so figuratively.

A good conscience answering God in baptism is evidence of eternal life (Mark 16:16). The will and works of man are entirely rejected as having any role in eternal life whatsoever.

Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh~A very damning and destructive heresy in church history is the premise that baptism saves. Once you accept this premise for your reasoning, then you will corrupt much more truth.

Since water may not be available for an immersion, many have invented sprinkling or pouring. Since many died in infancy, heretics comforted mothers by baptizing their babies, and the consistent Presbyterians doing this will also stuff the Lord's Supper in their little mouths. Since infants miscarry, and they hold to original sin, they also use intrauterine baptism. Since Campbellites baptize believers, they deny original sin for the age of accountability. Since Mormons require a Mormon baptism, they invented baptism for dead relatives. Baptismal regeneration or salvation is a terrible lie that has corrupted "Christianity."

They must at all costs maintain the RCC heresy and premise that baptism saves the soul. Therefore, when they find God denying their profanity, they alter His words like in Eden. They change the words filth of the flesh ... to ... dirt of the body in words or meaning. The terms here define, demand, and prove the design of water baptism~no means of salvation from sin and condemnation.

Water baptism does not remove or take away sins or sin nature in any literal or real way. Remember, this definitive baptism text began by declaring it was a figurative ordinance! A figurative ordinance does not have saving efficacy in any literal or real way. Grasp it! What is the filth of the flesh not? It is not a dirty body as Campbellites and others hallucinate. It is not the dirt of the body, because no convert in human history has ever thought such. It is not the dirt of the body, because the good conscience here is about sin and salvation. It is not the dirt of the body, because baptism is for repentance of sins, not a dirty body. Filth of the flesh is not bodily dirt, or we would have to hold bathtub holiness (2nd Corinthians 7:1)!

What is the filth of the flesh here? It is the sins and or the sin nature of man's fleshly nature. It is the sins and sinfulness of man resulting from the lusts of his flesh in context (2:11). It is the sins and sinfulness of man that will sink his soul into the lake of fire. (Revelation 22:11). Peter further defined and explained in his second epistle about the flesh (2nd Peter 2:10,18). Paul defined and explained about the flesh as sins to be forgiven by Christ (Colossians 2:11,13). Jude used filthy, italicized preserved interpolation, for sinful, wicked dreams (Jude 1:8).

Baptism does not put away sin, sins, or sin nature, and any thought to the contrary is heresy. Baptism only saves figuratively, which is the premise on which this entire verse is built. Baptism is by those with good consciences, which can only come after regeneration! Putting away sins was by the finished work of Christ (John 19:30; Hebrews 1:3; 10:10-14). Man's will or works, even righteous works, are rejected (Titus 3:5; John 1:13; Romans 9:15-16).

But the answer of a good conscience toward God~Because of their false premise that baptism saves, 90-95% of "Christians" baptize infants. They have absolutely no Bible basis for any infant ever being baptized by the apostles. Infants do not have an active conscience, nor can they express themselves toward God. Their consciences cannot, do not, and will not ever come close to believing or answering. So the RCC and others invent godparents to answer for the infants ... defying John 1:13! So the RCC and others invent confirmation to get an answer later ... defying Acts 8:37!

The terms here define, demand, and prove the subject of baptism~a regenerated believer. Water baptism requires a conscience~consciousness of right and wrong; infants do not qualify.

The issue at stake in salvation is a conscience understanding guilt and forgiveness of sin. This conscience can declare repudiation of past sins and commit to a life of discipleship. An infant can never do these things, and others cannot do them for an infant (John 1:13). Thus, Baptists have traditionally referred to water baptism as believer's baptism. Amen!

The condition for baptism is a good conscience, which requires maturity and regeneration! A bad conscience is under condemnation and guilt of sin without remedy (Heb 10:1-3). A good conscience must hear and believe the true gospel of forgiveness and justification. It must make a conscious choice itself, which some did and some did not (Luke 7:29-30).

A man not born again is dead in sins with a wicked conscience (Rom 8:7-8; Eph 2:1-3). Water baptism is the answer of that good conscience to God for sending Jesus Christ for it. Baptism is not a bad conscience asking for God to save it by water for it to become good. Baptism is the individual ordinance of a person thanking God for saving by Jesus' death. When one hears and believes the gospel, it purges the conscience for baptism (Hebrews 9:14). The fabulous news of Jesus Christ's finished work clears the conscience (Hebrews 10:19-22). Modern translations and commentators show a profane perversity by corrupting this point. They must at all costs maintain the RCC heretical practice that infants are to be baptized. Therefore, when they find God denying their profanity, they alter His words like in Eden.
They alter answer of a good conscience ... to ... appeal or request in words or meaning. Because Philip required the Ethiopian to believe first, they delete Acts 8:37 altogether! Discipleship is required in baptism, which precludes or warns about baptizing little children. More is required than faith in Jesus, for commitment to a new life is included (Romans 6:3-5). John required works meet for repentance when Pharisees came to his baptism (Matthew 3:8).

By the resurrection of Jesus Christ~Proper baptism, burial and resurrection in water, is a figurative picture of Jesus' resurrection. The connection here defines, demands, and proves the mode of water baptism ~immersion. Baptism must be a figure of salvation in Jesus Christ, for that is what is written thus far. Baptism must be a figure of Jesus Christ's resurrection by connection to this last phrase. Only baptism by immersion has a figure or picture of any kind at all of body resurrection. The Bible's one Author, the Holy Spirit, confirms this in Romans 6:3-5 and Ist Corinthians 15:29. If you do not see baptism must show resurrection, you cannot handle Ist Corinthians 15:29!

For the reasons stated in scripture, that I asked you to cite and quote, which you side stepped. They do exist. Why didn't you find those verses and post them here?

Now you have it, let me see what you will do with it.  Let's see who will side-stepped now.

[Jaime]

Red i don't think anyone here believes the water in baptism does anything other than put us into contact with the sin cleansing agent, Christ's blood. No amount of water poir, sprinkled or dunked in can remove sins. God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit accomplishes the work in baptism. Baptism is where we call upon the Lord as Peter was commanded to do in Acts 22. The congruance with the 1Peter 3 passage confirms this. Baptism is not like removing dirt of the body. It IS the calling upon the the Lord in a method and means the Lord wanted and required with all the obvious and God intended symbology involving surrender, death to self, burial and resurrection.

[Texas Conservative]

Red i don't think anyone here believes the water in baptism does anything other than put us into contact with the sin cleansing agent, Christ's blood. Baptism is where we call upon the Lord as Peter was commanded to do in Acts 22. The congruance with the 1Peter 3 passage confirms this. Baptism is not like removing dirt of the body. It IS thr calling upon the the Lord in a method and means the Lord wnated and required with all the obvious and God intended symbology involving surrender, death to self, burial and resurrection.

By phrasing it like this, you are parsing faith from baptism.

[Jaime]

No, IN baptism our faith is rewarded. There is no way to parse baptism from faith successfully. Our faith brings us to obedience and submission. To the point of contact with the cleansing blood of Christ. Wherein our sins are washed away by the blood of Christ and where we are given the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. How would I be parsing baptism from faith? It can't be done. A dunking in water without faith accomplishes only getting wet. With faith as God wants we receive what Christ accomplished. We join IN his death, nurial and resirrection symbolicly and in reality.  In baptism we "earn or merit" nothing.  Nothing in scripture would support parsing baptism from faith. It IS where God's rubber meet the road so to speak. That's why I refer to baptism as our faith response. It is not separate from faith.  Aptism cannot conjure or bring faith, but faith is expressed in baptism.

[4WD]

How does baptism save? It saves figuratively, because baptism has been defined as a figure.

I have read and heard that argument before. It is a false argument. Yes, baptism is a figure of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.  But that doesn't mean that the baptism is not also real in what is accomplished through it. And it is not the ark that is here pictured as the figure; rather it is the water.  The water of the flood is the type; the water of baptism is the anti-type. It was water that separated the eight people on the ark from the rest of the disobedient people that perished.  It is water of baptism that separates the saved today from those left in their sin to perish.

If you want to consider the ark as a type, then the anti-type would be Christ in His resurrection.  But it is clearly through baptism in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ, that the one baptized is saved.  Just as there was nothing metaphorical about the salvation of those eight persons through the water of the flood of Noah, so also there is nothing metaphorical about the salvation of the persons through the water of baptism.

We are saved by grace through faith in baptism.

[Jaime]

I agree 4WD. The application of Christ's blood in baptism is not at all metaphorical or symbolic. And it is 100% available  BECAUSE of God's grace through faith in Christ. Faith cannot be parsed from scriptural baptism and with that truth neither should any part of the work of baptism be credited to man, it is ALL of God. Same with Noah's family, they were all delivered by God's grace.

[DaveW]

Red i don't think anyone here believes the water in baptism does anything other than put us into contact with the sin cleansing agent, Christ's blood.

Paul called baptism a "burial" in Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12.  What died and needed to be buried?  Our old sin nature.

That is certainly more than just putting us in contact with HIS blood.

[Jaime]

Absolitely Dave, we are baptized INTO Christ or we CLOTHE ourselves with Christ also. Everyone agrees "what can cleanse our sins, nothing but the. blood of Jesus." That cleansing blood is applied in baptism in Christ's name, as we die to our selves and our "old man" is laid to rest and is buried and are raised to walk in newness of life empowered with the indwelling Spirit. To the first century Jewish mind, balptism is a rich picture AND FUNCTIONALLY where the blood of Christ is applied, even for apostle Paul.

In my opinion, that was why Ananias exhorted Paul, "why do you tarry, arise and be baptized calling upon the Lord?" Paul still had his sin to his tally even after his face to face encounter with the risen Christ on road to Damascus.

DanP and others may ask where is water mentioned? I would say how does one arise, and BE Spirit baptized. It's NOT something conjure-able even upon arising after not tarrying.

[yogi bear]

Absolutely true biblical doctrine found in the words of the bible.

[e.r.m.]

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Paul called baptism a "burial" in Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12.  What died and needed to be buried?  Our old sin nature.

That is certainly more than just putting us in contact with HIS blood.

Yes, and through baptism we are 'born again,' which is to say adopted.

[e.r.m.]

Edward, let me approach your question in this manner, maybe this might satisfy your question, but most likely it will not, nevertheless, let me add more, so you may see why I use the scriptures above the way I did. What follows should prove this to you.

Ok.

1st Peter 3:21~"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The like figure~There are two figures or pictures here ~ the ark in the previous verse, baptism in this verse. A figure is a symbolic picture representing something in reality (Romans 5:14; Hebrews 9:9). The adjective like indicates the figure of baptism is similar to another figure in context. The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two things being considered. Noah's ark and water baptism are two figures: both are a picture of salvation in Christ. Most translations and commentators have only one figure ~the ark is a figure of baptism! They have a vested interest in baptism not being a figure (like the coc) like all baby sprinklers.

There are a few requirements for a scriptural baptism, and this one verse teaches three of them. The three requirements taught here are the proper subject, mode, and design of baptism. It is amazing to see what modern translations have done to corrupt all three requirements. Around 90-95% of all so-called Christians cannot learn baptism's three requirements.

This verse about baptism is the most definitive verse in the entire Bible about this ordinance. It is amazing to read works on baptism that do not mention this verse or quite neglect it. It is amazing to see what modern translations have done to corrupt all three requirements. Why cannot 90-95% see this simple truth? Tradition above scripture; they will not be fools for Jesus; the truth is for few, like 8 in context; God sends delusion (2nd Thess. 2:9-12).

Baptism is a figure of resurrection, as the verse's grammar requires, and as the Bible teaches. The grammar, by ignoring the parenthetical element, connects the figure to resurrection.[/quote]You said:
Noah's ark and water baptism are two figures: both are a picture of salvation in Christ. Most translations and commentators have only one figure ~the ark is a figure of baptism!

I looked up the greek and there is only one figure mentioned. Eight Souls were saved through water "to-WHICH" AND US INSTEAD-type NOW IS-SAVING baptism NOT OF-FLESH FROM-PLACing OF-FILTH but OF-conscience GOOD inquiry INTO God THRU UP-STANDing (resurrection) OF-JESUS ANOINTED
(Christ)

It goes from the direction of the water from the flood being the antitype for, representing, or symbolizing the water. Vs. 20 mentions while the ark was being prepared, but only mentions said water toward baptism.

Bible baptism, which is immersion or submersion, is a picture of burial and resurrection. Paul thoroughly identified the burial and resurrection figure of water baptism (Romans 6:3-5).

Neither 1 Peter 3:21, nor Romans 6:3-5 else says baptism is the beginning point representing something else.
Paul.did not say baptism is a picture of burial and resurrection, nor did he identify baptism as a burial and resurrection figure. That is only added afterward by modern groups.
Paul said:
Romans 6:3-5 Know ye not, that so many of us as WERE baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore WE ARE buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we HAVE BEEN planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

The whole picture, representation vocabulary is inferred by those who wish to believe us such. The passage goes on to say about baptism:
Romans 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Many now do not maintain that Romans 6 is talking about baptism in water, and have opted to make it Holy Spirit baptism, I believe it's because they are now catching on to verses 6 and 7. If they were to acknowledge that Romans 6 is talking about baptism in water, then they would also have to accept what happens in those verses, and that's a no-no.

Doth also now save us~The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two figures are being considered. The ark literally saved from water; Jesus literally saved His elect from the second death. The ark figuratively saved by figuring Jesus; baptism figuratively saves by figuring Jesus.

1 Peter 3:21 doesn't State any of this. It's inferred.

How does baptism save? It saves figuratively, because baptism has been defined as a figure.

1 Peter 3:21 doesn't say baptism saves figuratively, it just says it saves. What you wrote is inferred.

There is real salvation in Jesus Christ's resurrection mentioned in this verse (Rom 4:25). Baptism pictures that resurrection in a figure by its burial and rising again from water.

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

...doesn't say Baptism pictures that resurrection in a figure by its burial and rising again from water.

[Quote[There is no real saving efficacy, power, value in baptism, for the next clause confirms it. When the Bible says baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16), it only does so figuratively.[/quote]You are the using things you inferred and around with the wording with, things those verses don't state on their own, to now modify other verses.  Your inferrences don't have the weight or authority to change what is written in Acts 22:16. Acts 22:16 still stands, unscathed, and unaltered.

A good conscience answering God in baptism is evidence of eternal life (Mark 16:16).

1 Peter 3:21, nor anywhere else, says A good conscience answering God in baptism is "evidence of" eternal life.

The will and works of man are entirely rejected as having any role in eternal life whatsoever.

Works are rejected in being saved, but as of yet you have presented no scripture stating a connection between works and baptism.

Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh~A very damning and destructive heresy in church history is the premise that baptism saves. Once you accept this premise for your reasoning, then you will corrupt much more truth.

Baptism is not for the washing of dirt off your body (taking a bath, shower, etc) does not translate into "baptism saves is a heresy". The verse actually says "baptism doth also now save us" so you really have to turn a blind eye to the text and do some master manipulating to say that it means the opposite.

Since infants miscarry, and they hold to original sin, they also use intrauterine baptism. Since Campbellites baptize believers, they deny original sin for the age of accountability.

Original sin is nowhere in Scripture. That's an easy one.

Baptismal salvation is a terrible lie that has corrupted "Christianity."

with all this rhetoric I have yet to see a verse speaking thusly.

They must at all costs maintain the RCC heresy and premise that baptism saves the soul. Therefore, when they find God denying their profanity, they alter His words like in Eden. They change the words filth of the flesh ... to ... dirt of the body in words or meaning. The terms here define, demand, and prove the design of water baptism~no means of salvation from sin and condemnation. Water baptism does not remove ortake away sins or sin nature in any literal or real way.

I looked up the greek on this. You made an interesting point. I found that that the word ῥύπου can mean either dirt on the body or filth of the soul. You can't confirm that it means the other. The sentence does start off with that baptism saves you, not represents that it saves you.

Remember, this definitive baptism text began by declaring it was a figurative ordinance! A figurative ordinance does not have saving efficacy in any literal or real way.

1 Peter 3:21 does not "declare" that baptism is a figurative ordinance. It says the water from the from the flood represents the baptism. It doesn't say baptism represents.... To claim that it says baptism is a figurative ordinance is to contradict and misrepresent the text.

That is your inferrence. Grasp it!

It's not an inference when one quotes exact words "...baptism doth also now save us...". It inference when someone says it means the exact opposite of what's written that baptism "does not save".

What is the filth of the flesh not? It is not a dirty body as Campbellites and others hallucinate. It is not the dirt of the body, because no convert in human history has ever thought such. It is not the dirt of the body, because the good conscience here is about sin and salvation. It is not the dirt of the body, because baptism is for repentance of sins, not a dirty body. Filth of the flesh is not bodily dirt, or we would have to hold bathtub holiness (2nd Corinthians 7:1)!

Wouldn't that by he said "not" removal of dirt from the body, but an answer of a good conscience toward God. ? Since baptism is "not" that, but is...?

What is the filth of the flesh here? It is the sins and or the sin nature of man's fleshly nature. It is the sins and sinfulness of man resulting from the lusts of his flesh in context (2:11). It is the sins and sinfulness of man that will sink his soul into the lake of fire. (Revelation 22:11). Peter further defined and explained in his second epistle about the flesh (2nd Peter 2:10,18). Paul defined and explained about the flesh as sins to be forgiven by Christ (Colossians 2:11,13). Jude used filthy, italicized preserved interpolation, for sinful, wicked dreams (Jude 1:8).

You do make a point that it "could" also mean filth of the flesh in 1 Peter 3:21 as it does in those other contexts, but it's not conclusive.

Baptism does not put away sin, sins, or sin nature, and any thought to the contrary is heresy. Baptism only saves figuratively, which is the premise on which this entire verse is built. Baptism is by those with good consciences, which can only come after regeneration!

It doesn't say it saves you figuratively, it says it saves you.

Putting away sins was by the finished work of Christ (John 19:30; Hebrews 1:3; 10:10-14). Man's will or works, even righteous works, are rejected (Titus 3:5; John 1:13; Romans 9:15-16).

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Wouldn't this make more sense with what he meant when when he said it is finished?

& there is also
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Belief and confession come before righteousness and salvation. Unto is a cause & effect.

But the answer of a good conscience toward God~Because of their false premise that baptism saves, 90-95% of "Christians" baptize infants. They have absolutely no Bible basis for any infant ever being baptized by the apostles. Infants do not have an active conscience, nor can they express themselves toward God. Their consciences cannot, do not, and will not ever come close to believing or answering. So the RCC and others invent godparents to answer for the infants ... defying John 1:13! So the RCC and others invent confirmation to get an answer later ... defying Acts 8:37!

The terms here define, demand, and prove the subject of baptism~a regenerated believer. Water baptism requires a conscience~consciousness of right and wrong; infants do not qualify.

The issue at stake in salvation is a conscience understanding guilt and forgiveness of sin. This conscience can declare repudiation of past sins and commit to a life of discipleship. An infant can never do these things, and others cannot do them for an infant (John 1:13). Thus, Baptists have traditionally referred to water baptism as believer's baptism. Amen!

Agreed, and infant baptism is bogus.

The condition for baptism is a good conscience, which requires maturity and regeneration! A bad conscience is under condemnation and guilt of sin without remedy (Heb 10:1-3). A good conscience must hear and believe the true gospel of forgiveness and justification. It must make a conscious choice itself, which some did and some did not (Luke 7:29-30).

A good conscience is not a condition for baptism. Baptism "is" an answer of a good conscience because baptism saves 1 Peter 3:21.

A man not born again is dead in sins with a wicked conscience (Rom 8:7-8; Eph 2:1-3). Water baptism is the answer of that good conscience to God for sending Jesus Christ for it. Baptism is not a bad conscience asking for God to save it by water for it to become good.

The words in the passage say otherwise
1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-baptism ...the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism is the individual ordinance of a person thanking God for saving by Jesus' death. When one hears and believes the gospel, it purges the conscience for baptism (Hebrews 9:14). The fabulous news of Jesus Christ's finished work clears the conscience (Hebrews 10:19-22).

So baptism's purpose is a thank you ordinance? Where does it say this?

Modern translations and commentators show a profane perversity by corrupting this point. They must at all costs maintain the RCC heretical practice that infants are to be baptized. Therefore, when they find God denying their profanity, they alter His words like in Eden.
They alter answer of a good conscience ... to ... appeal or request in words or meaning. Because Philip required the Ethiopian to believe first, they delete Acts 8:37 altogether! Discipleship is required in baptism, which precludes or warns about baptizing little children. More is required than faith in Jesus, for commitment to a new life is included (Romans 6:3-5). John required works meet for repentance when Pharisees came to his baptism (Matthew 3:8).

Agreed, belief comes as a precursor requirement to baptism. But 'request'or 'appeal' still makes sense when belief is included. The difference is the person being baptized makes the appeal, but his/her parents.

By the resurrection of Jesus Christ~Proper baptism, burial and resurrection in water, is a figurative picture of Jesus' resurrection. The connection here defines, demands, and proves the mode of water baptism ~immersion.

Baptism must be a figure of salvation in Jesus Christ, for that is what is written thus far. Baptism must be a figure of Jesus Christ's resurrection by connection to this last phrase. Only baptism by immersion has a figure or picture of any kind at all of body resurrection. The Bible's one Author, the Holy Spirit, confirms this in Romans 6:3-5 and Ist Corinthians 15:29. If you do not see baptism must show resurrection, you cannot handle Ist Corinthians 15:29!

First none of these verses say baptism is intended as a picture. Such an idea in wholly inferred. It is not written thus far, because it is not written anywhere. Second, scripture never states that one must do something to picture the dbr.

Our baptism is a confession to the eyes of men like the gospel is to their ears that we believe the record that God gave of his Son...
For the reasons stated in scripture, that I asked you to cite and quote, which you side stepped. They do exist. Why didn't you find those verses and post them here?
Now you have it, let me see what you will do with it.  Let's see who will side-stepped now.

Why not just say "There is no scripture that states baptism's purpose is a confession to the eyes of men, so I inferred this from scriptures that don't say it?"

[RB]

e.r.m.  Better late than never. Where have you been, in Arabia? Learning up on your doctrine? Maybe a wise thing to do. I'll come back and address your post very soon, maybe today. I just saw it. I, last posted on the thread back in August...then you took time off to think about this?

[e.r.m.]

RB, Sorry for the hiatus. I've been chipping away at it. It was a super long post to respond to. I just don't have such big blocks of time to do it all at once. Anyway to condense your responses or some other way to make them shorter?

[RB]

RB, Sorry for the hiatus. I've been chipping away at it. It was a super long post to respond to. I just don't have such big blocks of time to do it all at once. Anyway to condense your responses or some other way to make them shorter?

No problem, and as far as being long, that's no problem either, for some it is, but not for me. Let me see what we can do with your post.

RB: 1st Peter 3:21~"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The like figure~There are two figures or pictures here ~ the ark in the previous verse, baptism in this verse. A figure is a symbolic picture representing something in reality (Romans 5:14; Hebrews 9:9). The adjective like indicates the figure of baptism is similar to another figure in context. The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two things being considered. Noah's ark and water baptism are two figures: both are a picture of salvation in Christ. Most translations and commentators have only one figure ~the ark is a figure of baptism! They have a vested interest in baptism not being a figure (like the coc) like all baby sprinklers.

There are a few requirements for a scriptural baptism, and this one verse teaches three of them. The three requirements taught here are the proper subject, mode, and design of baptism. It is amazing to see what modern translations have done to corrupt all three requirements. Around 90-95% of all so-called Christians cannot learn baptism's three requirements.

This verse about baptism is the most definitive verse in the entire Bible about this ordinance. It is amazing to read works on baptism that do not mention this verse or quite neglect it. It is amazing to see what modern translations have done to corrupt all three requirements. Why cannot 90-95% see this simple truth? Tradition above scripture; they will not be fools for Jesus; the truth is for few, like 8 in context; God sends delusion (2nd Thess. 2:9-12).

Baptism is a figure of resurrection, as the verse's grammar requires, and as the Bible teaches. The grammar, by ignoring the parenthetical element, connects the figure to resurrection. Noah's ark and water baptism are two figures: both are a picture of salvation in Christ. 

Most translations and commentators have only one figure ~the ark is a figure of baptism!

e.r.m. the ark WAS NOT a figure of water baptism! it was a figure of our salvation IN CHRIST~water baptism is a NT doctrine, not old!

"I looked up the greek and there is only one figure mentioned. Eight Souls were saved through water "to-WHICH" AND US INSTEAD-type NOW IS-SAVING baptism NOT OF-FLESH FROM-PLACing OF-FILTH but OF-conscience GOOD inquiry INTO God THRU UP-STANDing (resurrection) OF-JESUS ANOINTED
(Christ) It goes from the direction of the water from the flood being the antitype for, representing, or symbolizing the water. Vs. 20 mentions while the ark was being prepared, but only mentions said water toward baptism.

e.r.m.~your quote concerning the Greek is one mess up discombobulated statement, that even a Greek expert could not interpret, even though, we do not need one,  since our English bible is just fine.

Peter said: "The like figure whereunto even baptism"~the LIKE figure, meaning that as ark was a figure of our salvation in Christ, "even so" is water baptism! SO there you hve two figures, not one! What does water baptism figure in this verse? It figures the RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ, by which we are legally justified. As I said above:

Baptism is a figure of resurrection, as the verse's grammar requires, and as the Bible teaches. The grammar, by ignoring the parenthetical element, connects the figure to resurrection.

Bible baptism, which is immersion or submersion, is a picture of burial and resurrection. Paul thoroughly identified the burial and resurrection figure of water baptism (Romans 6:3-5).

Without this understanding of baptism=resurrection, you have no hope with Ist Corinthians 15:29.

Whereunto even baptism~Having introduced Noah and the ark for several reasons, Peter applied its figure to baptism. To this point in Ist Peter 3:18-22, no reader could know where he was going until these words.

Doth also now save us~The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two figures are being considered. The ark literally saved from water; Jesus literally saved His elect from the second death. The ark figuratively saved by figuring Jesus; baptism figuratively saves by figuring Jesus.

How does baptism save? It saves figuratively, because baptism has been defined as a figure.

There is real salvation in Jesus Christ's resurrection mentioned in this verse ( Please read Romans 4:25! ). Baptism pictures that resurrection in a figure by its burial and rising again from water.

Enough on this point, it is too clear not to see this truth.

Neither 1 Peter 3:21, nor Romans 6:3-5 else says baptism is the beginning point representing something else. Paul.did not say baptism is a picture of burial and resurrection, nor did he identify baptism as a burial and resurrection figure. That is only added afterward by modern groups.

Edward, all the apostles taught us that baptism actually represents a few biblical truths, one always mentioned above, but it is not limited only to what actually saves a sinner from condemnation (speaking of the resurrection of Jesus Christ ) it also speaks of a future resurrection that shall yet take place.

1st Corinthians 15:29~"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

In other words..."WHY" be baptized if the dead shall not arise in a future resurrection of the dead, which water baptism picture to all who witness folks being baptized~we are saying to all who witness a water baptism, that we BELIEVE IN A FUTURE BODILY RESURRECTION.....or, else why then are you baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not, as some at Corinth were teaching.

Romans 6:3-5 Know ye not, that so many of us as WERE baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore WE ARE buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we HAVE BEEN planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

The whole picture, representation vocabulary is inferred by those who wish to believe us such. The passage goes on to say about baptism:
Romans 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Many now do not maintain that Romans 6 is talking about baptism in water, and have opted to make it Holy Spirit baptism, I believe it's because they are now catching on to verses 6 and 7. If they were to acknowledge that Romans 6 is talking about baptism in water, then they would also have to accept what happens in those verses, and that's a no-no.

A couple of things. Are you saying that water baptism here in Romans 6 is a "picture, representation"? Not sure what you are attempting to say, maybe you can explain, without me surmising. What threw me off was this: "who wish to believe us such"~If you mean to write "on" instead of us, then I see what you are saying. Then I would say, yes, water baptism ( which btw, is the subject under consideration ) is still a picture here of saints burying their old man in the watery grave arising to walk in newness of life! It is a picture of our confession of believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ and our desire to follow his teaching/religion, etc. Water baptism speaks to the eyes of men, what the gospel does to their ears!

I'm stopping and coming back to finish.  RB

[4WD]

Baptism is the time, the occasion, when God forgives the sins of the one being baptized and bestows the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit to the one being baptized. That should be evident from just about all the NT passages speaking about baptism.  In a couple of passages baptism, i.e., immersion in water, the going down into the water and then coming up out of the water, is compared to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus.  That it is pictured as such does not take away what is actually stated to be the results of being baptized. So what is actually stated to have been accomplished in the baptism? The next several verses describe the result: We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him (Rom 6:4-8) .

That is a perfect description of justification and regeneration, the forgiveness of sins and being born again. A very similar description is found in Colossians 2:11-13:
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Here again we find God's act of the forgiveness of sin and the new birth, i.e., justification and regeneration. Baptism is the time, the occasion, when God forgives the sins of the sinner and bestows upon him the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.  The one being baptized goes down into the water a sinner and comes up out of the water a saint.

[yogi bear]

I totally agree with what you posted 4WD it is clearly written for all to see. I cannot for the life of me not see how anyone cannot see and understand the words written on this topic. It is very clear what God has said about baptism and it being the point where forgiveness is granted.