A Happy Quokka

[Rella]

Quokkas, also known as short-tailed scrub wallabies, are some of the sweetest, cutest animals you can find in Australia. They're as small as cats and have pouches in their bellies like kangaroos.

This mom and her baby are having the time of their lives. Just look at how happy that baby looks!

[RB]

Quokkas, also known as short-tailed scrub wallabies, are some of the sweetest, cutest animals you can find in Australia. They're as small as cats and have pouches in their bellies like kangaroos.

This mom and her baby are having the time of their lives. Just look at how happy that baby looks!

And there are folks who believe in evolution! Such people refuse to consider and ponder!

[Alan]

And there are folks who believe in evolution! Such people refuse to consider and ponder!

Subspecies like these creatures wouldn't exist without evolution.

[DaveW]

Subspecies like these creatures wouldn't exist without evolution.

?? 

Are you saying God is incapable of creating sub-species??

[Alan]

?? 

Are you saying God is incapable of creating sub-species??

No, I'm saying that it's THE WAY God created all living things.

[4WD]

?? 

Are you saying God is incapable of creating sub-species??

??

Are you saying God is incapable of creating evolution??

[Texas Conservative]

No, I'm saying that it's THE WAY God created all living things.

[Rella]

No, I'm saying that it's THE WAY God created all living things.

   By evolution?

[4WD]

Why not?

[Rella]

Why not?

You are asking me ? The first fact would be that God designed, made, and/or created the first one of every living thing

You cannot have evolution without there being a base for it to have spun off.

Could God have built into the first of everything the mechanism that would allow and even encourage an altered species from the parent one?

Certainly. Procreation certainly would allow for that. A baby ( even a young plant from a seed) will be different then it's parents

Why would he have done so?

To make His job easier and he would not need to be so hands on. (Yes, God has hands... just ask Moses)

But He still had to do the first for something to evolve from. Then He could go about whatever He wanted or simply watch us like a big terrarium.

Look how far mankind has evolved. We now have the LGBTQ + community and now we have the Tranny one.

Eventually there will be none at all as the reproductivity of these folks will cease unless "science" steps in

And no arguments that these communities are not evolution products.... for if you believe in evolution the way science wants you to... they most certainly are.

[4WD]

Why would he have done so?

Again, why not?

[DaveW]

No, I'm saying that it's THE WAY God created all living things.

Based on what exactly? Chapter and verse. 

I find less foundation for that assumption than Him creating each species individually.

[Rella]

Again, why not?

Alan suggested that God created all by way of evolution.


Quote from: Alan on Today at 05:44:55

No, I'm saying that it's THE WAY God created all living things.

Would not there need to be a starter for something to evolve from?

Yes.. With God all things are possible but there still had to be a start for the living. Unless you can explain how the living came into being out of nowhere and from nothing.

But wait........ 

Perhaps you have the proof that the written word of Genesis 1 26 is false? (And God said, Let us make man in our image) cause if he said then man did not just arrive from nothing......

And if he did then YOU single handedly have prove the holy words are wrong

[4WD]

Would not there need to be a starter for something to evolve from?

Yes, certainly.  Generally speaking, there is no real suggestion on the starter in evolution.

Perhaps you have the proof that the written word of Genesis 1 26 is false? (And God said, Let us make man in our image) cause if he said then man did not just arrive from nothing......

And what image, specifically is that?  I would argue that image is strictly the spiritual image since God is Spirit, not physical.  I find no argument in Genesis 1:26 against evolution.  Evolution may be totally false, but nothing in that speaks against it.

[Rella]

Yes, certainly.  Generally speaking, there is no real suggestion on the starter in evolution.
And what image, specifically is that?  I would argue that image is strictly the spiritual image since God is Spirit, not physical.  I find no argument in Genesis 1:26 against evolution.  Evolution may be totally false, but nothing in that speaks against it.

I assume the image from the first ever selfie?

KJ would know.... perhaps the champion of the KJV on here can explain.

KJ tells us 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: which is about an image after a likeness.

Can you say how a likeness is spiritual?

Holman Bible Dictionary

Quality or state of being like; resemblance. Old Testament passages center around two truths: (1) that God is wholly other and cannot be properly compared to any likeness (Isaiah 40:18 ) and (2) that humanity is created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26 ). The first truth forms the basis for the prohibition of making any graven images (Exodus 20:4; Deuteronomy 4:16-18; see Idols) and perhaps explains Ezekiel's reluctance to speak of elements in his vision in concrete terms (Ezekiel 1:5 ,Ezekiel 1:5,1:10 ,Ezekiel 1:10,1:16 ,Ezekiel 1:16,1:22 ,Ezekiel 1:22,1:26 ,Ezekiel 1:26,1:28 ). The likeness of God in humanity (Genesis 1:26 ) has been interpreted variously. Likeness has sometimes been distinguished from image, though the terms are best regarded as synonyms. See Image of God . Interpreters have identified the divine likeness with the ability to think rationally, to form relationships with other humans and with God, or with the exercise of dominion over creation (cf. Psalm 8:5-8 ). The divine likeness is sometimes thought to have been lost in the Fall, though its passing to Seth (Genesis 5:3 ) argues against the popular form of this argument. Though the likeness of God was not lost with Adam's sin, neither Adam nor subsequent humanity fulfilled God's purpose. God's purpose for humanity was fulfilled in Jesus Christ who is in a unique sense the likeness of God (2 Corinthians 4:4; compare John 1:14 ,John 1:14,1:18; John 14:9; Hebrews 1:3 ). Paul's statement that Christ came "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3 ) parallels "born in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7 ), testifying that the incarnate Christ was truly human. The Christian life is characterized as a new creation in the likeness of God (Ephesians 4:24; compare 2 Corinthians 4:4 ).

And thus enters in one of the greater debates of all time and that is if Adam, if formed from the dust of the ground actually was in God's likeness, physically .... or if he was just spiritual.

We shall agree to disagree..... as usual 

[DaveW]

Yes, certainly.  Generally speaking, there is no real suggestion on the starter in evolution.
And what image, specifically is that?  I would argue that image is strictly the spiritual image since God is Spirit, not physical.

Rev 1: 13
and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.  17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

THAT image. 

[4WD]

Rev 1: 13
and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.  17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

THAT image.

You are giving me a reference to John's revelatory vision as an indication that somehow God is physical?  I think I will just pass on that.

[4WD]

Can you say how a likeness is spiritual?

I can give you God's word that He is Spirit: John 4:24 God is Spirit....

[RB]

I assume the image from the first ever selfie?

KJ would know.... perhaps the champion of the KJV on here can explain.

KJ tells us 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: which is about an image after a likeness.

Can you say how a likeness is spiritual?

In order for us to come to a sure knowledge of ourselves, we must first grasp the fact that Adam, parent of us all, was created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis. 1:2627). That is, he was endowed with wisdom, knowledge, understanding righteousness, holiness, etc. God alone is endowed with Infinite attributes..... man and angels are finite.

We understand this by understanding what the new birth is~it is a recreation of sinners back to their original image, but even better than Adam~we are created after the image of Jesus Christ, an image which is impossible for us to sin and be deceived.

1st John 3:9~"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

That is, the new man~the old man can and does sin, and can be deceived. So, to whatever degree a person walks in if born of God is the degree they will have victory in this life.

The image of God is spiritual, and understood by the spiritual man in Jesus Christ.

[RB]

Rev 1: 13
and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.  17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

THAT image.

[Rella]

I can give you God's word that He is Spirit: John 4:24 God is Spirit....

Who has visible parts.... that work.

Exodus 33

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. So God has a face

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, andwill cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
And God has at least 1 hand.

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. And God mentions His hand a second time. And God references His back parts And again the mention of the face.

If God were only spirit NO mention of these would be needed.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Is that thing real?  It looks... animatronic.

But you did invoke Australia, which makes virtually anything possible, I suppose. 

[RB]

Who has visible parts.... that work.

Exodus 33

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. So God has a face

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, andwill cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
And God has at least 1 hand.

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. And God mentions His hand a second time. And God references His back parts And again the mention of the face.

If God were only spirit NO mention of these would be needed.

Rella, before Moses there was Jacob who said:

Genesis 32:30~"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Did he actually see God in His Infinite glory? No, he did not.

Genesis 32:24~"And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day."

God had sent his angel in a form of a man and it was he Jacob wrestled with and it was he that Jacob saw face to face! We were made a little lower than the angels, yet Jocab prevailed against the angel in prayer as he wrestle with him to get a blessing from him, before meeting his brother Esau, whom he was afraid would kill him.

God is a Spirit that NO man or angels have ever seen nor will ever see. Impossible~his glory would consume both. In His Infinite wisdom and power, he has made himself available through angels.  Men have seen God in the person of His Son, who is the express image of His person in wisdom, knowledge, righteousness, and holiness.

We shall yet see God in the person of Jesus Christ who will be subject to God as the MAN Christ Jesus world without end that God may be all in all.  1st Corinthians 15

verse 28~"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

God is a Spirit, always has been, always will be, who dwells in eternity with no beginning and no end.

[DaveW]

You are giving me a reference to John's revelatory vision as an indication that somehow God is physical?  I think I will just pass on that.

You should not pass.  Stop thinking like a 21st century westerner and think more like a first century person from the near east. 

The ancient Jews did not place a hard distinction between spirit and physical.  They were both closely interrelated.

Hebrews 13.8 tells us our Lord was /is the same yesterday today and forever.  He does not change. So the image that John saw in Revelation 1 is the same as He was before creation.

Malachi 3:6a
For I, the Lord, do not change;

[4WD]

The ancient Jews were not very well informed about a lot of things.

[DaveW]

The ancient Jews were not very well informed about a lot of things.

So?  Their thought process and logic framework were very heavily influenced by the OT texts.  It was also influenced by the right-to-left structure and the lack of vowels in the written language.  The direction forced the brain to use a different part to process; and the lack of vowels made relying on context critical to understand what word was being used. 

As former UK chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks said in an address:  Hebrew requires bringing together for meaning; Greek divides for analysis. 

The scriptures are written in the former.

[RB]

Two more scriptures to consider:

Colossians 1:15~"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

God is a Spirit that is invisible.

Invisible: That cannot be seen; imperceptible by the sight.

Hebrews 11:27~"By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible."

[Rella]

Two more scriptures to consider: God is a Spirit that is invisible.

Invisible: That cannot be seen; imperceptible by the sight.

Then explain King Jimmy's translation of Exodus 33.

20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Spirits are invisible. But that does not mean they cannot take on a visible form... but that is another study.

Moses saw something... Gods back parts after God removed His hand from covering him.

IF He was invisible this would NOT HAVE needed to happen.

[DaveW]

Then explain King Jimmy's translation of Exodus 33.

20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Spirits are invisible. But that does not mean they cannot take on a visible form... but that is another study.

Moses saw something... Gods back parts after God removed His hand from covering him.

IF He was invisible this would NOT HAVE needed to happen.

Visible, invisible, solid, non-corporeal;  those are all things related to our time space created world.  I am not sure they have any meaning at all in the spirit realm where God exists.

[Rella]

Visible, invisible, solid, non-corporeal;  those are all things related to our time space created world.  I am not sure they have any meaning at all in the spirit realm where God exists.

Did He or did He not meet with Moses?

And if He did was it not in our time space created world?

And if he didn't.... where did the tangible 10 commandment stones come from?

And is it not possible for God to have come into our world?

WE know that up in heaven things are not the same as they are down here... but that does not mean that God could not come here if He so had a need.... which he did when he met with Moses....

Unless he beamed Mose's up to heaven and then beamed him back down here again

[DaveW]

Did He or did He not meet with Moses?
And if He did was it not in our time space created world?

Yes and yes.

But that was not my point.  The point was that many are trying to put GOD in a box:  "He is a spirit so He can never take physical form. He is invisible so no one has ever seen HIM." 

My point was that outside our time space existence such terms are meaningless.

[Rella]

Yes and yes.

But that was not my point.  The point was that many are trying to put GOD in a box:  "He is a spirit so He can never take physical form. He is invisible so no one has ever seen HIM." 

My point was that outside our time space existence such terms are meaningless.

Yes, he is a spirit, but I say he can take on a physical form if he wants to.

That is fairly clear in Exodus 33:22

But the fact is that Moses was able to see Gods spirit. He just was not allowed to see his face.

If God was invisible then there would be no issue.

Moses was allowed to see Gods hand that was shielding him. Moses was allowed to see Gods back.

GOD WAS NOT INVISIBLE

20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
21 And the Lord said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.
22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."

[4WD]

What does it even mean to see anything not physical?  On the one hand, seeing is a response of the optic nerve to light reflected off of an object. God could certainly stimulate that same response without resorting to taking on a physical form.

On the other hand, we "see" things in our dreams that, I suspect, have nothing to do with the optic nerve.  And that such "seeing" could also be stimulated by God also without the need for any actual physical element or being.

[Rella]

What does it even mean to see anything not physical?  On the one hand, seeing is a response of the optic nerve to light reflected off of an object. God could certainly stimulate that same response without resorting to taking on a physical form.

On the other hand, we "see" things in our dreams that, I suspect, have nothing to do with the optic nerve.  And that such "seeing" could also be stimulated by God also without the need for any actual physical element or being.

My brain cells seem to be dwindling as I seem not to be able to express myself 

Without going back to check... are you not also among those who say God is a spirit therefore cannot be seen?

Then Moses lied, God lied or they worked together to make a lie when God said


20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
21 And the Lord said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.
22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."

Because if he is an invisible spirit how could this have been possibe?

[4WD]

Rella,

The book of Revelation is almost exclusively a record of what John "saw" and "heard" while he was exiled on the isle of Patmos.  So then, what does it mean that he saw and heard all of that?  I don't think it means that any of what he saw and heard was literal.  I think the same is true of all that Moses saw and heard.

But, seriously, if you want to think of God in human terms, I don't really have a problem with that.  I think most of us do in one form or another.  It is hard not to.