And this is wrong?.... why? Where’s the Thief on the Cross?

[Rella]

Where's the Thief on the Cross?

https://lp.israelbiblecenter.com/lp-biblical-studies-content-where-thief-on-the-cross-en.html?via=8743672&utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email_lead_standalone_content_where-thief-on-the-cross_2022-12-2#8743672

Hades or Heaven?
In Luke's story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Jesus describes both individuals dying and going to "Hades" (ᾅδης; Hebrew Sheol), the realm of the dead (Lk 16:23). However, this view of the afterlife seems to conflict with what Jesus tells his neighbor while he's on the cross: "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise" (Lk 23:43). Jesus' promise seems to suggest that after he and the robber die that day, the two will be together in heaven. So, which is it? Do the deceased go to Hades or Heaven?

What is Paradise?
In ancient Jewish-Greek literature, "paradise" usually refers either the Garden of Eden in Genesis or the heavenly realm of God. According to the Septuagint, "The Lord God planted a paradise in Eden and placed there the human he had formed" (Genesis 2:8 LXX). Speaking of God's dwelling above the earthly realm, Paul describes a visionary experience in which he saw the "third heaven"—a place that he calls "paradise" (2 Cor 12:1-4). Revelation combines these two locations when Jesus declares, "to the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God" (Rev 2:7). But in their visions of the divine abode, neither Paul nor John has entered the afterlife; they see the heavenly realm in visions, but they have not "died and gone to heaven."

A Paradise in Hades
Jesus himself goes to Hades (Sheol) after he dies, not to heaven. In a speech to the people of Jerusalem, Peter cites Psalm 16:10—"For you will not abandon my life to Sheol (שאול), or let your holy one see decay"—as a prophecy of Jesus' resurrection. The disciple asserts that the psalm "foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to Hades (ᾅδης), nor did his flesh see decay. This Jesus God raised up [from Hades], and of that we are all witnesses" (Acts 2:31-32). Thus, when Jesus tells the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise" (Lk 23:43), the place that they will both be that day is Hades. But there is a paradise in Sheol where Lazarus resides in the "bosom of Abraham" (16:22)—a place of postmortem peace and repose with the rest of the righteous departed who await resurrection. Just as Jesus is raised from Sheol after three days, so too will those who follow him be raised on the last day.

[4WD]

I probably should just stay out of this one; however, I believe that the thief is in paradise as Jesus said.  I believe that paradise  is the abode of the dead who have been saved.  Paradise, I believe, is the intermediate state between death and Jesus' second coming, i.e., His return.  I will just state that and then I think I will let it go at that.

[yogi bear]

I am in agreement with 4WD on this and wish to comment no more as well

[Amo]

Hmmmm? Paradory instead of Purgatory?

[Texas Conservative]

Luke 23:42-43 New Wrong Version
[42]And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
[43]And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in soul sleep."

[4WD]

 

[Reformer]

4WD:

    Your Reply #1 is right on target. I've written about this before, so I find no need to re-address it. But I will read what others have to say.

Buff

[RB]

  Where's the Thief on the Cross?

Just where Jesus said~in  Paradise. Where is paradise? Where Jesus IS far above ALL!

Ephesians 1:20,21~"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:"

The same place Paul was caught up to pardise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter!

2nd Corinthians 12:1-8~"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me."

This led Paul to said these words:

Philippians 1:23~"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paradise is where JESUS IS and with all the spirits of just men made perfect by the blood of Jesus Christ. When Jesus died, "his spirit went to Paradise, while his body laid in the grave for three days and three night!

Hades or Heaven?
In Luke's story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Jesus describes both individuals dying and going to "Hades" (ᾅδης; Hebrew Sheol), the realm of the dead (Lk 16:23). However, this view of the afterlife seems to conflict with what Jesus tells his neighbor while he's on the cross: "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise" (Lk 23:43). Jesus' promise seems to suggest that after he and the robber die that day, the two will be together in heaven. So, which is it? Do the deceased go to Hades or Heaven?

The reason why it seems to be in conflict with other scriptures is simple...Luke 16 is a parable and can easily be explained as such. There has never been a place in the earth where BOTH the righteous and wicked go at death, that's an RCC fable! The righteous at death go to be with ALL other spirits of just folks, the wicked are dead and do not have eternal life, so they stay DEAD  in the grave UNTIL the last day, when they shall be resurrected to be cast into the lake of fire, WHICH IS the second death.  The righteous have eternal life and can NEVER truly die, NEVER, for God is the God of the LIVING, not the God of the dead! I'm not a Sadducee, are you?  SAD U CEES.yes, Lord I see how sad it would be to be of the Sadducees doctrine of having NO hope of eternal life in their possession while they live,and after death! 

[NyawehNyoh]

.
• Acts 2:31a . . his soul was not left in Hades

Classical Hades is divided into sections where the souls of the dead are assigned in accordance with the quality of their pre-death existence. The worst section is a deep abyss called Tartarus; which is utilized in the New Testament at 2Pet 2:4.

Luke 23:43 says Jesus' soul waited for his body's recovery in a better section of Hades he called paradise; translated from a Greek word for parks and recreation, i.e. an Eden.

According to Luke 16:23 the poor slobs over in the hell section of Hades can look across to paradise and see what they're missing: sort of like destitute street urchins gazing thru the window of a posh restaurant at what people have on their plates; which speaks very loudly of want and privation.

FAQ: Paradise is down in the netherworld?

REPLY: The Pacific Crest Trail (a.k.a. PCT) traverses the north/south length of three states-- California, Oregon, and Washington. No matter where trekkers might be located on the trail at any given moment-- whether south in Campo San Diego, or crossing the Columbia River on the Bridge Of The Gods 2,140 trail-miles to the north in Cascade Locks Oregon --they're all on the very same PCT.

Paradise is sort of like that. There's a piece of it in the netherworld (Matt 12:40, Luke 16:19-31) another in a celestial region that Paul labeled the third heaven (2Cor 12:2-4) and yet another is located with God. (Rev 2:7)
_

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Where's the Thief on the Cross?

https://lp.israelbiblecenter.com/lp-biblical-studies-content-where-thief-on-the-cross-en.html?via=8743672&utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email_lead_standalone_content_where-thief-on-the-cross_2022-12-2#8743672

The Bible is making an allusion here to another work.

In the book of Enoch (and in Revelation), paradise is pictured as being a place in the heavens.  It may be the same thing as Paul's "third heaven."  Also in Enoch, the spirits of righteous martyrs are pictured as already being in Paradise.

Jarrod

[Rella]

The Bible is making an allusion here to another work.

In the book of Enoch (and in Revelation), paradise is pictured as being a place in the heavens.  It may be the same thing as Paul's "third heaven."  Also in Enoch, the spirits of righteous martyrs are pictured as already being in Paradise.

Jarrod

And you will say this is wrong, also.... What I have always heard and believed.....

When I talked with the Baptist minister ( I know, I KNOW... those Baptist people simply do not know what they are talking about) in search of an immersion I got another lesson in this and the following link explains far better then I... or even he.... could

I had forgotten all about this when I posted the initial subject .....

Rather, the plain testimony of Scripture reveals that the believing and unbelieving dead before the resurrection went to a place called "Sheol."

Sheol is an actual place for the dead in an actual location, not simply a nice and proper way to say "grave," although Old Testament writers do that from time to time (Job 17:13-16; Job 24:19-20). Not only do the souls of the wicked dead live there (Ps. 9:17; Ps. 31:17; Prov. 9:18; Luke 16:23), but the righteous who died prior to the resurrection were taken there as well, like Jacob (Gen. 37:35), Job (Job 14:13), and Hezekiah (Is. 38:10).

The souls of the believing righteous were translated to the upper chamber of Sheol upon death, also known as "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22) or "Paradise" (Luke 23:43). When Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise," He is, indeed, referring to the upper chamber of Sheol where they will meet together in death. Again, Jesus isn't speaking in allegory here, because the literal sense makes most sense. There is simply no reason to take this passage to mean anything other than what it says. Jesus and the thief met together in a real place called "Paradise" on that same day.

https://thingsabove.us/jesus-descension-sheol-isnt/

I would submit that there could well be more then one place called paradise if it was a descriptive term.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

When I talked with the Baptist minister ( I know, I KNOW... those Baptist people simply do not know what they are talking about) in search of an immersion I got another lesson in this and the following link explains far better then I... or even he.... could

I have a lot of love for the Baptists.  My best friend was a Baptist.  I attended a Baptist University. 

Rather, the plain testimony of Scripture reveals that the believing and unbelieving dead before the resurrection went to a place called "Sheol."

Sheol is an actual place for the dead in an actual location, not simply a nice and proper way to say "grave," although Old Testament writers do that from time to time (Job 17:13-16; Job 24:19-20). Not only do the souls of the wicked dead live there (Ps. 9:17; Ps. 31:17; Prov. 9:18; Luke 16:23), but the righteous who died prior to the resurrection were taken there as well, like Jacob (Gen. 37:35), Job (Job 14:13), and Hezekiah (Is. 38:10).

The souls of the believing righteous were translated to the upper chamber of Sheol upon death, also known as "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22) or "Paradise" (Luke 23:43). When Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise," He is, indeed, referring to the upper chamber of Sheol where they will meet together in death. Again, Jesus isn't speaking in allegory here, because the literal sense makes most sense. There is simply no reason to take this passage to mean anything other than what it says. Jesus and the thief met together in a real place called "Paradise" on that same day.

https://thingsabove.us/jesus-descension-sheol-isnt/

The phrase "upper-chamber of Sheol" rankles me.  The idea of multiple layers (or circles) of Hell probably comes from Dante's Inferno, a book of 14th-century Italy.

The Bible does use the word "Hades" in translation of "Sheol" as you say, and with it comes the Greek conception of Hades.  But the Greeks envisioned Hades as a realm with multiple places that were separated by lakes and rivers - the Styx, the Lethe, the Acheron, the Cocytus, Mnemosyne, and Phlegethon.

The Styx is the entrance to Hades, and either feeds or is fed by the other 4 rivers.  Across the Acheron River (and through the gates of Hell) are the Fields of Asphodel, where the dead wait to be judged.  Once judged, they are sent off to one of the other areas.  Crossing the Lethe River leads back to the world, but causes the person to lose all their memories and be re-born (reincarnated).  Across the Cocytus is a realm of darkness where lost/forgotten souls wander.  It may be referenced in Matthew 25 as "outer darkness."  The Mnemosyne becomes a lake that contains the Elysian fields, an area where the righteous/heroic dead can rest, which answers very well to the idea of a Paradise.  The Phlegethon is a river of fire.  It also becomes a lake, in which are many islands where the souls of the evil-dead are tortured.  It also leads to Tartarus, a place mentioned in Revelation as the prison of the unfaithful angels.

I would submit that there could well be more then one place called paradise if it was a descriptive term.

No... Biblical Paradise is the Garden of Eden, a place which is pictured (again in Revelation) as being in the heavens.  And that comes from Enoch, as I mentioned earlier in this topic.

Jarrod

[Rella]

I have a lot of love for the Baptists.  My best friend was a Baptist.  I attended a Baptist University. 
The phrase "upper-chamber of Sheol" rankles me.  The idea of multiple layers (or circles) of Hell probably comes from Dante's Inferno, a book of 14th-century Italy.

The Bible does use the word "Hades" in translation of "Sheol" as you say, and with it comes the Greek conception of Hades.  But the Greeks envisioned Hades as a realm with multiple places that were separated by lakes and rivers - the Styx, the Lethe, the Acheron, the Cocytus, Mnemosyne, and Phlegethon.

The Styx is the entrance to Hades, and either feeds or is fed by the other 4 rivers.  Across the Acheron River (and through the gates of Hell) are the Fields of Asphodel, where the dead wait to be judged.  Once judged, they are sent off to one of the other areas.  Crossing the Lethe River leads back to the world, but causes the person to lose all their memories and be re-born (reincarnated).  Across the Cocytus is a realm of darkness where lost/forgotten souls wander.  It may be referenced in Matthew 25 as "outer darkness."  The Mnemosyne becomes a lake that contains the Elysian fields, an area where the righteous/heroic dead can rest, which answers very well to the idea of a Paradise.  The Phlegethon is a river of fire.  It also becomes a lake, in which are many islands where the souls of the evil-dead are tortured.  It also leads to Tartarus, a place mentioned in Revelation as the prison of the unfaithful angels.
No... Biblical Paradise is the Garden of Eden, a place which is pictured (again in Revelation) as being in the heavens.  And that comes from Enoch, as I mentioned earlier in this topic.

Jarrod

Then tell me why Jesus descended into "hell". For what possible purpose.... and do not use the tired excuse he had to pay a penalty for our sins....... I have heard that all my life too. Why would he have gone to mingle with the worst of the worst.

There would be no reason to talk to the dead when they will not be able to elevate there position once dead.

So why did He?

Here are a number of verses.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Then tell me why Jesus descended into "hell". For what possible purpose.... and do not use the tired excuse he had to pay a penalty for our sins....... I have heard that all my life too. Why would he have gone to mingle with the worst of the worst.

There would be no reason to talk to the dead when they will not be able to elevate there position once dead.

So why did He?

To be clear, He descended into Hades, not Tartarus.

Why?  It's a prison break.  He attacked it, and set the captives free.

Jarrod

[yogi bear]

Now if you would be so nice to expand on "It's a prison break.  He attacked it, and set the captives free." What captives and what happened to them after that?

[Jean74]

Really there were two thieves on the cross that were paying with their lives as one mocked him and possibly denied Christ and sadly really went to you know where. While the other thief stood up for Christ on the cross saying both the thieves got what they deserved. And asked Jesus to remember him but Jesus told the thief who seemed to be very truthfully remorseful and in return, Christ tell to the one that was very remorseful to be with Christ in paradise.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Now if you would be so nice to expand on "It's a prison break.  He attacked it, and set the captives free."

What captives and what happened to them after that?

Fair questions.  The answer got kind of long, so I have made an entirely new topic out of my answer.

Click here to go to the new topic The NT teachings on Hades & Resurrection come straight out of the Book of Enoch.

Jarrod

[RB]

his soul was not left in Hades

You have been bewitched by false prophets! You are under a strong delusion, following men instead of the scriptures. Your error are many, but I will be short, since I have spoken many times to you concerning some of these things you are attempting to explain "outside" of the scriptures.

his soul was not left in Hades

Jesus' soul was not left in the GRAVE, and it means NO MORE than that! Hell is used in different senses in the scriptures, and in Acts 2:31 is it without question the GRAVE! 

Acts 2:30-31,~"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Sir, the scriptures said "the soul that sinneth, it shall die."~Ezekiel 18:4 Jesus was made sin for his people, that they would be made the righteousness of God through him. Thereby, he was put to death, and WOULD HAVE stayed there, yet death had NO POWER over him thereby God raised him from the GRAVE which has power over ALL men through the law of God! Sin and death gets it strength from God's law, yet the Saviour kept that law PERFECTLY, and to show that he did, God raised him from the GRAVE.

1st Corinthians 15:54-57~"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death (NOT HELL FIRE) is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who conquered sin and DEATH by his perfect obedience! I could keep going, but enough.

I may finish answering the rest tomorrow...I may not! I firmly believe it is almost a losing cause to even try.

[RB]

Classical Hades is divided into sections where the souls of the dead are assigned in accordance with the quality of their pre-death existence. The worst section is a deep abyss called Tartarus; which is utilized in the New Testament at 2Pet 2:4.

Wrong, so wrong!

2nd Peter 2:4~"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

What sense are we to understand "hell" as used by Peter in the scripture before us? Not hell fire where the second death will take place for all the wicked.

Hell in this verse is explained for us by Peter, if we read the scriptures carefully and refuse to be a rubber stamp for what churches in Babylon teach.

First, does any truly believe that angels that left their first estate were judged THEN by being cast into what some call a burning hell? If so, then you have trouble explaining many scriptures, I'll start with this one to make it easy for you:

Matthew 8:28-32~"And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters."

This world are full of devils and have been since the fall of man, they have NOT gone anywhere~many are in pulpits around this world and many other places they can find a body to possess. They all speak the same language with very little true light of truth in them.

"but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness"~Hell is explained for us as being CHAINS OF DARKNESS! In other words~TRUE LIGHT has been taken from them when they SINNED and left their first estate. That's the hell in which they are NOW living in. That darkness is passed on to those that they possess, and how GREAT is that darkness! I could say more but enough to help others to see your error, for you obviously do not care to see light.

Matthew 6:23~"But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

[NyawehNyoh]

.

Wrong, so wrong!

RB; my main man. 

* Important Safety Tip: Unless you are 110% infallible; never pronounce someone wrong, lest the hapless day arrive when you are forced to eat your words.
_

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

.
RB; my main man. 

* Important Safety Tip: Unless you are 110% infallible; never pronounce someone wrong, lest the hapless day arrive when you are forced to eat your words.
_

Nah, that's cowardly.  Put yourself out there.  Give strong opinions.  Risk it.

[Texas Conservative]

Nah, that's cowardly.  Put yourself out there.  Give strong opinions.  Risk it.

Agreed.