How does one get "INTO CHRIST"?~ D. W. Baker

[Rella]

Until his password is recovered RB will be posting through me. So please address all your comments to him and he will read, then reply this way.

Theology
Any sincere follower of Jesus Christ truly desires to know the answer~at least I did as a young believer almost fifty years ago when this question was put to me by some workers I worked with who were members of the CoC.

They would often quote Romans 6:3-6, with emphasis on verse three:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

No scripture stands alone as though there is no other sense that can be giving to that particular scripture.

If one truly desires to know the truth on any given doctrine, then we must take the what God has given and allow them to give to us the truth interpretation of them. Interpretations belongs to God, not us. Genesis 40:8~"And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong unto God? tell me them, I pray you. Genesis 40:8~"And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong unto God? tell them me, I pray you."

Romans 6 has given many students trouble in undersatnding the true sense in which Paul wrote those words. Some men, just take a easy road out by saying Paul is dealing with being "spiritually baptized" into Christ at the new birth~but this wresting the scriptures just to protect a doctrine that they have been taught. Without question Paul is addressing water baptism. More on this later.

The question is how does one get INTO Jesus Christ? Let Paul tell us. Ephesians 1:4~"According as he hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: "

How plain is this? Very much so! Before we were ever born, we were chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. We were MEMEBERS of his elect body form eternity past and will be for all eternity. Never been a time when we were not IN CHRIST. Listen to David: Psalms 139:13-17......

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!" David a prophet, is here speaking in the person of Jesus Christ, just as he did in other places of the Psalms like Psalms 22, etc.

All of Christ members of his elect body were ALL written in a book of life from eternity when as yet there was none of them!

So, water baptism does not legally put us INTO CHRIST, since we were IN CHRIST from all eternity. Time will not allow me to address thsi more in depth but such places as Ephesians two proves we were IN CHRIST while he lived on earth and were IN HIM when he died; and was IN HIM when he arose from tehedead...THIS IS PART OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, to deny this truth is to reject the gosepl of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:3-6~"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" These scriptures need a sermon on its own to get to the depth of the truth found herein. We have been loved by God with an everlasting love, NOT SO, with the wicked who shall perish in their sins.

Back to Romans 6 and its true meaning. When we are water baptized we are baptized INTO THE FAITH, RELLGION, AND DOCTRINE OF JESUS CHRIST. We are saying that we believe the gospel that we have heard and want to commit our life in loving, living and defending its truths!

Much more could be said, but enough to cause one to continue to search the scriptures for GOD"S TRUTH on whatever subject one is seeking to understand. May God bless his word to those who love it and seek it.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Was this meant to be a response to the "Eastern vs Western mindsets" topic?  It sure seems like it would fit there...

[Alan]

This isn't complicated, read and pray-PERIOD!

[4WD]

This isn't complicated, read and pray-PERIOD!

Yes, but according to D.W. Baker if you are not of the "elect" all that reading and praying will be of no consequence whatsoever.  But of course that is wrong.

[4WD]

James B. Coffman offered the following in an addendum to his commentary on Romans:

JESUS CHRIST, INCORPORATED

The redemption that is in Christ ...
The expression "in Christ" is, in some ways, the most important in all the Pauline writings, where this expression, or its equivalent, "in whom," "in him," etc., is used no less than 169 times.

What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means to be in his spiritual body, called the church, the body of which Christ is the head, of which he is declared to be the Savior, and which means having a spiritual relationship to Christ, a relationship of intimate union and identification with him. Redemption is not in faith, or baptism, or in anything else except being "in Christ." Right here is that device contrived by God himself by which a man might truly and legitimately be justified; and it might be looked upon as a divine corporation.

This writer is indebted to John Mackay, former President of Princeton Theological Seminary, for this concept of a divine corporation. He wrote:

Which God designated to give historical fulfillment to the "plan of the mystery." That organ is a community, the community of the "chosen in Christ," of "the destined in love." In the Epistle of the Ephesians, which is supremely interested in the corporate side of Christianity, "The People of God" occupy a central place. In the Old Testament they formed the "Commonwealth of Israel" in the New Testament the Christian Church, "the Body of Christ."


JESUS CHRIST, INCORPORATED

Inherent in the very fact of Christ's having a spiritual body is the concept of its being extra-literal. What kind of body is it? That it is a community of believers on earth is implicit in the fact that the Corinthians had "by one Spirit" all been baptized "into it" (1 Corinthians 12:13). That, in the last analysis, it includes more than the church is plainly set forth in Ephesians where "every family" in heaven and upon earth are a part of it. All the saved of all ages are in it, because only in Christ has salvation ever been possible for anyone. The wonder of this body is that it is truly spoken of as a person, like any other corporation, being, in fact, a fully legal person; hence the propriety of saying that one is "in Christ."

Christ's absolute righteousness cannot be separated from himself and conferred or imputed to others, true righteousness being non-transferable; but it is possible, thanks to the wise provision of God in forming the corporate "in Christ," for all who will to enter that body, becoming one with Christ, fully identifiable with him, and being in fact "in him." All such then share Christ's righteousness. It is truly theirs. This is what Paul means by "redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The shares of this corporation are the righteousness of Christ. In Christ is a bank of all the righteousness ever accredited to people. All spiritual blessings are categorically said to be in this corporation, "in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3). This means that there are no spiritual blessings anywhere except in Christ.

Who are those who make up Christ's spiritual body, thus being "in Christ"? The New Testament gives the following clues to their identity:
They are those who have been born again. Christ's spiritual body, also called by Christ "the kingdom," cannot be entered except by the new birth (John 3:3-5). They are those who are the "new" creatures. "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature" (2 Corinthians 5:17). And, like every other corporation, Jesus Christ, Incorporated, has a seal. Paul wrote to the Ephesians:

In whom (that is, in Christ), having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).

Thus, the members of Jesus Christ, Incorporated, are those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are also the saved, for the author of Acts declared that The Lord added to them day by day those that were saved, (or as more accurately in the English Revised Version (1885) margin) those that were being saved (Acts 2:47).

The true members of Jesus Christ, Incorporated, are the saved, the sealed with the Holy Spirit, the new born, the new creatures. In a word, they are baptized believers in Christ. The reception of the Holy Spirit of promise, in the first sermon of the gospel age, was made contingent upon the repentance and baptism of those who believed (Acts 2:38), and Paul's mentioning "of promise" in Eph. 1:13, above, shows that he had that in mind. Baptism is an essential element in the new birth, though not the whole of it; and the "newness of life" which belongs to every person "in Christ" follows his being baptized into Christ (Romans 6:4). There can be no marvel, therefore, at the fact of baptism's being mentioned three times in the New Testament as an act of obedience that results in the believer's having a new status, that of being "in Christ." "Baptized into Christ" is found in Rom. 6:3 and Gal. 3:27; and, in 1 Corinthians, it is written: "For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body" (12:13).

From these Holy Scriptures, there comes the certain conclusion, then, that faith is not the sum and all of salvation; it was not even so in the case of Christ perfect obedience wrought salvation for all; nor can it be supposed that "faith alone," defined by James as "dead" (James 2:17f), can ever avail anything except the eternal disappointment of them that trust in it.

In that all have sinned, a fact Paul was at great labor to prove, there resides the absolute necessity for every man to die as the penalty of sin, that penalty to be understood not merely as mortal but as eternal death; and God's justice will require that every man ever born on earth pay it, unless exempted through being in Christ. Thus, in the final judgment, only those who are truly "in Christ," members of that entity called the spiritual body, or, as here, Jesus Christ, Incorporated, can truly be exempted, and that not upon the basis of their faith alone, but upon the basis that Christ actually died for them, and that they died "in the person of Christ." That is the thrust of Paul's thought that Christians have been "baptized into his death" (Romans 6:3).

Jesus Christ, Incorporated, is the corporation set up through purchase by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28), the device God had planned before all time, and the mystery hidden before times eternal, and now made "known through the church" (Ephesians 3:10), and called the "mystery of the gospel" (Ephesians 6:19).

These thoughts are offered in the prayerful hope that people may forsake human theories of salvation, that they might believe and be baptized, as Christ commanded, and give glory to God "in the church" as directed by an apostle (Ephesians 3:21).

Like every figure of speech used to convey eternal truth, this one also results in certain distortions, as, for example, above where Christ is spoken of as being alone entitled to salvation. Of course, he was never lost; but the inheritance of the saints is scripturally noted as that which they shall receive as joint-heirs with Christ. Thus, subject to the limitation of all metaphor, this one is conceived of as a vehicle for vital truth, taught abstractly, throughout the New Testament; and, it is hoped, made a little plainer in this comparison.

Thus, only the righteous, the perfect, the truly faithful and obedient shall be saved; and there will be no basis for any man to boast of having anything such as that, because such is not in man; but it is in Christ, and those in Christ may through absolute identification with Christ truly say that they are perfect, etc. That is what Paul meant when he wrote: "That we may present every man perfect in Christ" (Colossians 1:28).

Thus, it will not be an imputed righteousness, procured by the sinner's faith, but a real, actual righteousness wrought by Christ, that can save such a one as sinful man, and then only if he will die to himself and become utterly one with Christ in Christ. As Paul said of himself:
It is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me; and that life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20).

Before leaving Rom. 3:24, the seeming paradox of how God's grace is free and at the same time all people do not receive it, should be observed. Paul wrote Titus:
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11,12).

From this, it is plain that God's grace having appeared, and salvation having been brought to all people, refer to the availability of that grace and salvation, and not to their being unconditionally bestowed. From the farmer who reaps down his fields to the fishermen off the Grand Banks, all men receive God's gifts conditionally, and never unconditionally. Thus, it is no surprise that God's grace and salvation came "instructing men," with the necessary deduction that rejection of the instructions was automatically rejection of the grace and salvation. Failure to comply with divinely imposed conditions is forfeiture of all benefits conditionally given.

[Rella]

Yes, but according to D.W. Baker if you are not of the "elect" all that reading and praying will be of no consequence whatsoever.  But of course that is wrong.

"But of course that is wrong."   Are you sure about that? Seems to me to be the perfect explanation of Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen." ~ Whether pre selected or not one must have faith and without that faith you are not saved. ERGO... reading and praying is very important.

Heb 11:6 NASB 1995
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

If you are pre-selected, it does not automatically mean you are saved. At least not to me. It merely means we have been given an opportunity and if we do not cultivate and grow in our faith then it will come to naught. And that leads us to 2 Cor 5:7 ...for we walk by faith, not by sight—

Back to topic....

4WD,

Will you please explain what Ephesians 1:5 means.

NASB 1995
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

KJV
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

LSV
having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Greek/English interlinear
Having predestined us to theadoption of sons  through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of the will of him,

THIS IS NOT CALVIN.... THIS IS THE HOLY BIBLE FROM THE INSPIRED INERRANT WORDS OF GOD TO THE AUTHOR.

NOW...

Let us read Ephesians 1 through 14  and see the context...

I will use NASB95 but you should check your own favorite choice.


1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

REPEATING: WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

You will likely stop reading at this point but here are ›
Most Relevant Verses on being chosen.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Ephesians 1:4-5
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Exodus 19:6
and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Deuteronomy 30:1-8
"So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you, and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you.

John 10:4

When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Matthew 22:1-14
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen."

Ephesians 2:19
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Being-Chosen

[4WD]

The basic question is what the order of things with respect to election and salvation is.  Red thinks that those God elects He then saves. The very question of this topic, "How does one get "INTO CHRIST"?is a bit of an oxymoron so far as Red is concerned.  According to Red, one doesn't "get" into Christ.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the one who is in Christ.  One is "put" in Christ on the basis of only God's sovereign will independent of any quality or character of the one chosen. But that inherently derives from Red's rejection of anything called free will.  I disagree. In Peter's introduction to his first letter: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who.....are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.... ; that is, they are chosen based upon God's knowing in advance of even the creation of the world who will believe.  It is those who believe who are saved and become one in the body of Christ, His church here on earth. That belief (faith) comes from hearing the gospel.

[Alan]

"But of course that is wrong."   Are you sure about that? Seems to me to be the perfect explanation of Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen." ~ Whether pre selected or not one must have faith and without that faith you are not saved. ERGO... reading and praying is very important.

That verse is not speaking of the elect, it's referring to the accompanying parable about the wedding, and the King requesting the servants go out into the streets and bring as many people to the feast as possible, as the invitees to the wedding did not want to go. In the end, the hall was filled but one man was cast out from the wedding. The parable describes him as not having a wedding garment on, but that means he was likely an unrighteous religious leader, or perhaps a Pharisee of the day.

"Many are called but few are chosen" directly relates to us and the paths we choose.

[NyawehNyoh]

.
A mistaken post: deleted.
_

[Rella]

That verse is not speaking of the elect, it's referring to the accompanying parable about the wedding, and the King requesting the servants go out into the streets and bring as many people to the feast as possible, as the invitees to the wedding did not want to go. In the end, the hall was filled but one man was cast out from the wedding. The parable describes him as not having a wedding garment on, but that means he was likely an unrighteous religious leader, or perhaps a Pharisee of the day.

"Many are called but few are chosen" directly relates to us and the paths we choose.

Alan do you speak Italian or Feench? Perhaps I should post in one or the other to you.

Yes, "Many are called but few are chosen" directly relates to us and the paths we choose.... AND FAITH.

The elect being chosen just as the wedding guests were.

I was referencing...The NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible  which retranslates  the last line, verse 14, as "For many are invited, but few are chosen." Who is Jesus talking to in this instance and what meaning hould we attribute to the verse? In short, Jesus is reminding his hearers that though there is a general call to the gospel for all, there is a specific call to saving faith for the elect. But let's dive deeper and take a look at the wider passage. This verse is recorded in a section of Matthew, chapter 22, under the heading The Parable of the Wedding Feast or The Parable of the Wedding Banquet in the ESV and NIV respectively. What do we know about this verse at first glance?

The Parable of the Wedding Feast (Matt. 22:1-14) summarized:
A king is giving a wedding feast for his son, and his servants are sent out to call on those invited to the feast. However, the invitees do not show up so other servants are sent out to tell the people that dinner is prepared, the meat has been slaughtered, and all is ready. But they still do not go to the wedding; some go about their business, while others kill the servants. Angry, the king sends troops to destroy the city of murderers. Then the king tells more servants that they are to go out to the main road and find as many as they can to bring to the feast. Later, the king finds the wedding hall filled with guests, but one man did not have a wedding garment on. The man was cast into the outer darkness, which is described as a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. And the parable ends with, "For many are called, but few are chosen."

This parable reflects the consequences that will befall the unrighteous religious leaders if they do not call upon the Lord in earnest. The ESV Study Bible notes that the feast represents fellowship with God in His kingdom, so coming to the feast represents entering the kingdom. And the additional wedding invitations sent out to others on the main road represents the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles. However, the invitation alone does not grant eternal admission to the kingdom/banquet hall. True faith is still required. A guest with an invitation cannot clothe themselves in righteousness—that is something only the King can do by His grace.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-does-many-are-called-few-are-chosen-mean.html   

[Alan]

The elect being chosen just as the wedding guests were.

The invitations were not sent to a select group, they were intended for all of the Jews.

[Rella]

The invitations were not sent to a select group, they were intended for all of the Jews.

Exactly.

But, all "Jews" would have been a select (chosen) group among all people of the world at the time.

Jesus said ... "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."" ... Matt 15:24

It was after the obvious that all, who had been anticipatong him, did not accept him that the wedding parable was told.

Not all accepted so the invite went out.... to others.

This is clear...

8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

This plainly said that those of the select group .... Israel.... who did not accept the invitation the invitation was then broadened to include others ... more specifically  Gentiles, though they were not mentioned as such here...

[Rella]

Replies from RB (Red) Baker. To the following...

Jarrod: "Was this meant to be a response to the "Eastern vs Western mindsets" topic?"  It sure seems like it would fit there..." RB: No, not sure where you see the connection.

Alan: "This isn't complicated, read and pray-PERIOD!" RB: Alan, there's a time to read, pray, and THEN a time to give the interpretation of what you are reading, just as Phillip did for the Ethiopia eunuch in Acts 8.


John 10:25-29~"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not BECAUSE you are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
I'll go with Christ's teaching over you and others who believe as you do, no pun intended sir, just a wise decision to do so, if one professes to believe the scriptures.

Again, our good friend said:

4WD: "The basic question is what the order of things with respect to election and salvation is.  Red thinks that those God elects He then saves. The very question of this topic, "How does one get "INTO CHRIST"?is a bit of an oxymoron so far as Red is concerned.  According to Red, one doesn't "get" into Christ.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the one who is in Christ.  One is "put" in Christ on the basis of only God's sovereign will independent of any quality or character of the one chosen. But that inherently derives from Red's rejection of anything called free will.  I disagree. In Peter's introduction to his first letter: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who.....are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.... ; that is, they are chosen based upon God's knowing in advance of even the creation of the world who will believe.  It is those who believe who are saved and become one in the body of Christ, His church here on earth. That belief (faith) comes from hearing the gospel."

RB: Yes one is elected to be IN CHRIST, who is the head of the elect body, sovereignly by grace alone without foreseen works, or, as you said:   "independent of any quality or character of the one chosen". Actually, we ALL came from the SAME LUMP, per Romans 9:21...

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Yes, he has the sovereign power to do so, since NEITHER had claims on his mercy!

4WD again said: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who.....are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.... ; that is, they are chosen based upon God's knowing in advance of even the creation of the world who will believe." That's why I said above to our friend Alan....  "Alan, there's a time to read, pray, and THEN a time to give the interpretation of what you are reading"~So I say to you now, when we read the holy scriptures, we MUST THEN give the sense that will flow with all scriptures, and here you sense is based on your biased opinion and the doctrine taught to you by those who reject UNCONDICTIONAL  ELECTION.

Sir what God KNEW and saw in his infinite foreknowledge was that if he had not elected some to eternal life, then NONE would have ever came on their own!  The whole of the scriptures will support THIS SENSE, not yours. So, why are you fighting and kicking against the pricks? Your position is not only oxymoron in its presentation, but it goes against the teachings of God's word, which is even worse, and dangerous.

Alan said again: "The invitations were not sent to a select group, they were intended for all of the Jews."

Without actually getting into the meaning of this scripture at the moment, since it would make this post a little too long, I will only say this for now:  Jesus was TRULY only sent to the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel!


[color=red]Matthew 15:24[/color]~"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus was not sent to the goats of the house of Israel, but to the lost sheep. There's a huge difference between the two.

Red Baker

[Rella]

RB,

One comment from what you said...

You said "Sir what God KNEW and saw in his infinite foreknowledge was that if he had not elected some to eternal life, then NONE would have ever came on their own!

....if he had not elected some to eternal life....

That is what I have maintained all along.... some

[4WD]

4WD again said: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who.....are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.... ; that is, they are chosen based upon God's knowing in advance of even the creation of the world who will believe." That's why I said above to our friend Alan....  "Alan, there's a time to read, pray, and THEN a time to give the interpretation of what you are reading"~So I say to you now, when we read the holy scriptures, we MUST THEN give the sense that will flow with all scriptures, and here you sense is based on your biased opinion and the doctrine taught to you by those who reject UNCONDICTIONAL  ELECTION.

Sir what God KNEW and saw in his infinite foreknowledge was that if he had not elected some to eternal life, then NONE would have ever came on their own!  The whole of the scriptures will support THIS SENSE, not yours. So, why are you fighting and kicking against the pricks? Your position is not only oxymoron in its presentation, but it goes against the teachings of God's word, which is even worse, and dangerous.

RB (Red Baker),
The oxymoron in all of this is your view of election for salvation.  If your view is correct, then the whole need and purpose for God's creation of this world is ridiculous and in fact moot.  If it was God's intention, as you proclaim, to preselect specific human beings for salvation apart from anything having to do with those human beings, He could have done so without creating this universe and this world and without also creating the mass of humanity to be assigned to eternal condemnation.

Given your view of election, it must be the case, with the numbers involved, that God is far more interested in creating human beings for eternal destruction than for eternal life.  And that my dear friend in Christ is the view of God you present for us to believe in.

[Rella]

4WD,

Still waiting for your reply and explanation to what the verses in reply 5 mean......

And while you are at ot.... please explain what you believe is  "the whole need and purpose for God's creation"

" If your view is correct, then the whole need and purpose for God's creation of this world is ridiculous and in fact moot"

[4WD]

Still waiting for your reply and explanation to what the verses in reply 5 mean......

The explanatioin for all those verses is in the correct understanding of God's election for salvation vs. God's election for service.  I have given some thought to opening a new topic on that.  For now, I will just direct you to the following:

http://jackcottrell.com/election-calvinism-and-the-bible-part-one/

http://jackcottrell.com/election-calvinism-and-the-bible-part-two/

And while you are at ot.... please explain what you believe is  "the whole need and purpose for God's creation"

" If your view is correct, then the whole need and purpose for God's creation of this world is ridiculous and in fact moot"

At least one thing God intends for this creation, I believe, is to create a population in heaven of beings who willingly choose to love God.

Rom 8:28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Rella, the rest of that passage speaks specifically to that purpose.  It is for those who love God.  God, in foreknowing those who would love Him, then "also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

[Alan]

Exactly.

But, all "Jews" would have been a select (chosen) group among all people of the world at the time.

Jesus said ... "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."" ... Matt 15:24

In the same parable, when the invitees failed to come to the wedding, the servants were ordered out to the streets to bring in as many people as they could get to fill the hall. That represents the rest of the people, gentiles if you will. So what is the difference between the intended invitees and the new invitees? At the end of the day; nothing.

[Rella]

Rella, the rest of that passage speaks specifically to that purpose.  It is for those who love God.  God, in foreknowing those who would love Him, then "also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." [/i][/b]

4WD

God, in foreknowing those who would love Him, then "also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

And there is so many more verses that this applies to.

[Rella]

In the same parable, when the invitees failed to come to the wedding, the servants were ordered out to the streets to bring in as many people as they could get to fill the hall. That represents the rest of the people, gentiles if you will. So what is the difference between the intended invitees and the new invitees? At the end of the day; nothing.

I disagree.

The invited invitees were those expected to come and when they didn't all bets were off and it opened the door to whoever.

IF the invitees had came as they were called, there likely would have been no need to widen the invitations.

The "chosen" ignoring the call is what has allowed us in.

[NyawehNyoh]

.
To my knowledge; Christ doesn't have any biological offspring, nor does he anticipate having any in the future. So obtaining a position in Christ requires a special act of God instead of an act of natural reproduction: in point of fact an act of placement. (1Cor 12:13)

In a nutshell; their placement in Christ relates folks to Christ just as personally as their position in Adam relates them to Adam, viz: though God has only one begotten son, Christ is a composite of many sons identified collectively in him as God's one begotten son (1Cor 12:12-27) just as everybody in Adam is identified collectively as the one Adam; and there are some remarkable benefits that come with a position in Christ.

First off; Christ is 100% innocent, i.e. he's characterized as a man of sinless perfection. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22) The righteousness of Christ is made over-- i.e. imputed --to everyone in this man similar to how Adam's unrighteousness was made over to everyone in that man. (Rom 5:19, 2Cor 5:21)

Secondly; Christ is God's heir apparent-- the Father's next of kin --so folks placed in Christ share that very same status as joint heirs with Christ because they are all together in him collectively reckoned as God's next of kin. (Eph 1:11 and Rom 8:16-17)

A joint-heir is different than a regular heir. Regular heirs are apportioned an individual percentage of their benefactor's estate. But joint-heirs inherit, not a percentage, but the entire estate, as community property, i.e. everyone placed in God's son has a right to inherit whatever the Father has bequeathed His one begotten son because they aren't strictly Christ's siblings, i.e. they are in him rather than only with him.

For example: supposing a benefactor's estate totals 60 acres of land, 18 gold bars, plus a hedge fund worth 200,000 US Dollars; and he left it all to six heirs in common. In that situation; the heirs are corporately one beneficiary instead of six; viz: all six inherit all the land, all the gold, and the entire fund as if each one were the only heir.

The extent of the Father's estate is astonishing. It incorporates not only all that is in Heaven, but also all in the entire universe and whatever lies beyond the universe, plus whatever pertains to the new cosmos spoken of in Isa 66:17, 2Pet 3:13, and Rev 21:1; and I don't know what else.

● John 3:35 . .The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

● John 16:15 . . All things that the Father has are mine
_

[Alan]

I disagree.

The invited invitees were those expected to come and when they didn't all bets were off and it opened the door to whoever.

IF the invitees had came as they were called, there likely would have been no need to widen the invitations.

The "chosen" ignoring the call is what has allowed us in.

So God's plan all along was to populate the earth with people, but only save a select group? I think this line of reasoning is much akin to conversations surroundings Jesus death and the many "what ifs".


God knew full well from the beginning that the sheep would wander.

[Rella]

So God's plan all along was to populate the earth with people, but only save a select group? I think this line of reasoning is much akin to conversations surroundings Jesus death and the many "what ifs".


God knew full well from the beginning that the sheep would wander.

God likely knew they would.  He knew the power of persuasion that free will offers.

But I keep remembering that Jesus specifically said

Matt 15:24 King Jimmy's translation.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He considered it His duty to restrict His ministry to Israel, to be a shepherd exclusively to the lost sheep of Israel. He said this as a result of that Gentile woman seeking help for her daughter.

So is that not only saving a select group? It was God the Father that Jesus said He was sent from... was it not?

Yes... we do morph into the gentile end of things... thanks to the stubbornness and disbelief of many of the chosen.... but
still it does seems as if they were the first chosen... and likely preferred.

[Rella]

RBs reply to the following posters....

NyawehNyoh:

"To my knowledge; Christ doesn't have any biological offspring, nor does he anticipate having any in the future. So obtaining a position in Christ requires a special act of God instead of an act of natural procreation, in point of fact an act of placement. (1Cor 12:13)

In a nutshell; their placement in Christ relates folks to Christ just as personally as their position in Adam relates them to Adam, viz: though God has only one begotten son, Christ is a composite of many sons identified together in him as God's one begotten son (1Cor 12:12-27) and there are some remarkable benefits that come with that position."

Red Baker replies: A question for you sir: Did God asked you if you wanted to be IN ADAM? Was it God's decision or your? God's will, or yours? God determine every single individual who would be IN ADAM; he also according to his will, determine/elected, who would be IN CHRIST, and thereby reap the spiritual benefits of being IN CHRIST.

The rest of your post, I'm not sure the manner you intended for it to go along with the subject under consideration of 'how" one is IN CHRIST.

4WD
RB (Red Baker),
The oxymoron in all of this is your view of election for salvation.  If your view is correct, then the whole need and purpose for God's creation of this world is ridiculous and in fact moot.  If it was God's intention, as you proclaim, to preselect specific human beings for salvation apart from anything having to do with those human beings, He could have done so without creating this universe and this world and without also creating the mass of humanity to be assigned to eternal condemnation.

Given your view of election, it must be the case, with the numbers involved, that God is far more interested in creating human beings for eternal destruction than for eternal life.  And that my dear friend in Christ is the view of God you present for us to believe in.

Red Baker replies:  You said:  "If your view is correct, then the whole need and purpose for God's creation of this world is ridiculous and in fact moot.  If it was God's intention, as you proclaim, to preselect specific human beings for salvation apart from anything having to do with those human beings'.....4WD, this is not a truth invented by me or any other man, but clear teachings from the word of God.

Romans 9:8-11~"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.  For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.  And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
How clear are these scriptures written to us? Very clear, only a person who has created a god in his heart that he thinks is the God on the scripture, when in truth he IS NOT. Every person born of God were children of his promises and oath, the ONLY two reasons why any person is a true believer and follower of Jesus Christ. Left to ourselves, we would and COULD NOT ever come to a saving faith in Christ, impossible apart form the power and mercy of God toward that person.
Again, WHY are you kicking against this blessed truth of God?

[NyawehNyoh]

.
Invited ≠ Chosen

"Many are invited, but few are chosen." (Matt 22:14)
_

[4WD]

Rom 9:10  And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11  though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--

As I have pointed out to you so many times, the election that is spoken of in verse 11 is election to service, not election to salvation.  We know that because she, i.e., Rebekah, was told, "The older will serve the younger." .  That clearly is not about salvation. And in fact it really isn't about either Jacob or Esau personally.  Rather it is about the Messiah coming through the line of Jacob.

That entire passage speaks to God's right of choosing people to serve Him without His saving them.  Israel was a chosen nation (elect nation). They were chosen to serve God's wishes.  However, being elect to serve did not mean they were elect to be saved.  That entire passage is devoted to explaining God's choosing Israel as the agency through which God would send His Messiah.

Rom 9:4  They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5  To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

[Alan]

God likely knew they would.  He knew the power of persuasion that free will offers.

But I keep remembering that Jesus specifically said

Matt 15:24 King Jimmy's translation.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He considered it His duty to restrict His ministry to Israel, to be a shepherd exclusively to the lost sheep of Israel. He said this as a result of that Gentile woman seeking help for her daughter.

So is that not only saving a select group? It was God the Father that Jesus said He was sent from... was it not?

Yes... we do morph into the gentile end of things... thanks to the stubbornness and disbelief of many of the chosen.... but
still it does seems as if they were the first chosen... and likely preferred.

Indeed, Jesus did state his mission was to God's select, but He Himself made references regarding the rest of the people and the select being lost. It was foreknowledge, IMHO.

The Faith of the Centurion

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.
6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly."
7 Jesus said to him, "Shall I come and heal him?"
8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that moment.


So if we have established that the elect discussed in red letter text became the lost sheep, how does any of that relate to us today?
The veil was torn away, and free access was granted to all that desired to seek God.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

So if we have established that the elect discussed in red letter text became the lost sheep, how does any of that relate to us today?

I think you might have mixed your metaphors a bit too much.

The Lost Sheep are those of the northern kingdom - the House of Israel - who went into diaspora and lost their separate cultural identity.  Their ultimate destiny was to be re-called to the Shepherd, and follow Him because they recognized His voice.

These who were already Judah but chose-not-to-hear-or-follow-the-Son are likened to branches which are broken off the tree of Israel.  Their ultimate destiny is to be piled up and burned.

Those are two very different endings.

Jarrod

[Rella]

Indeed, Jesus did state his mission was to God's select, but He Himself made references regarding the rest of the people and the select being lost. It was foreknowledge, IMHO.


So if we have established that the elect discussed in red letter text became the lost sheep, how does any of that relate to us today?
The veil was torn away, and free access was granted to all that desired to seek God.

Foreknowledge, indeed.

However, IMO Jesus was sent... because of that foreknowledge... and likely understanding of the minds to those who wandered. IOW, To retrieve the retrievable.

Jesus was the Messiah that the Jews had been anticipating for centuries (Luke 2:25; 3:15). As such, He was born into a Jewish family and was reared according to Jewish law in a Jewish town (Luke 2:27; Galatians 4:4). Jesus selected Jewish disciples, spoke in Jewish synagogues and the Jewish temple, and traveled mostly in Jewish areas. His mission, in fulfillment of the Jewish prophets, was to the Jewish people.

Now while Jesus selectively helped the Gentiles... such as the woman who came to him for help with her daughter, early on it was understood it was the lost sheep of Israel He was there for. But He knew it was for others as well.... In John10:16 He said... They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd"

But this fact was seemingly either not known or not understood because it did take a while for the early church to recognize that salvation was available to the Gentiles. The Jewish Christians who fled the persecution in Jerusalem went into the Gentile regions of Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, but, as we are told in Acts 11:19 they were "spreading the word only among Jews" . Even Peter in Acts 10  was hesitant to bring the gospel to a Gentile household, until God made it plain that Cornelius was also one of the elect .

Peter had to receive a vision from the Lord and receive a command to preach to the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius the gentile.  Only then the Gentiles were filled with the Holy Spirit and were baptized.

I see it relating to us because He told the disciples to go into the world and preach to all....... Matt 28: 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And also in Mark 16:15-16.

Now I am likely wrong but others will come along to correct me.

[Rella]

RBs reply to those below.


NyawehNyoh

Invited ≠ Chosen

"Many are invited, but few are chosen." (Matt 22:14)
_
Red Baker: "Sir, you never answered by question presented to you; again: Red Baker replies: A question for you sir: Did God asked you if you wanted to be IN ADAM? Was it God's decision or your? God's will, or yours? God determine every single individual who would be IN ADAM; he also according to his will, determine/elected, who would be IN CHRIST, and thereby reap the spiritual benefits of being IN CHRIST."

A very simple and direct question, would you please answer.......... "Did God asked you if you wanted to be IN ADAM? Was it God's decision or your? God's will, or yours? God determine every single individual who would be IN ADAM; he also according to his will, determine/elected, who would be IN CHRIST, and thereby reap the spiritual benefits of being IN CHRIST."


To my good friend 4WD: You posted back and said:
"Rom 9:10  And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11  though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--

As I have pointed out to you so many times, the election that is spoken of in verse 11 is election to service, not election to salvation.  We know that because she, i.e., Rebekah, was told, "The older will serve the younger." .  That clearly is not about salvation. And in fact it really isn't about either Jacob or Esau personally.  Rather it is about the Messiah coming through the line of Jacob.

That entire passage speaks to God's right of choosing people to serve Him without His saving them.  Israel was a chosen nation (elect nation). They were chosen to serve God's wishes.  However, being elect to serve did not mean they were elect to be saved.  That entire passage is devoted to explaining God's choosing Israel as the agency through which God would send His Messiah."

4WD, I know what you want these scriptures to say, but you are only proving your desperate attempt to try to rid the scriptures of a truth which goes against your gospel of works that you so desperately cling to. SInce you went back to ROmans 5,6 then let us take a close look at verses leading up to Romans 9:10,11 shall we?

Ver. 8. — That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

That is, or this explains, the declaration, 'In Isaac shall thy seed be called.'

It is intended to show that not carnal descent, but being included in the promise, constituted the true spiritual seed. This clearly establishes the difference between the sonship of Israel after the flesh, and the sonship of Israel after the Spirit. The nation of Israel stood in a relation to God in which no other nation was ever placed; but only a part of them enjoyed a spiritual relation. Hence the distinction here noted, that the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for the seed a distinction which the Apostle also makes, ch. 2:28, between being a Jew outwardly, and a Jew inwardly. These distinctions are explanatory of the declaration, 'In Isaac shall thy seed be called,' and of the rejection of the other children, though the seed of Abraham. In the Epistle to the Galatians, 4:22, it is said that 'Abraham had two sons, the one by a bond maid, the other by a free woman.' This appears in the original history to be a merely accidental and unimportant matter; but in that place we are taught that it was a shadow of futurity. Ishmael, who was of the bond woman, it is said, was 'born after the flesh.' This denoted that though he was descended from Abraham according to the laws of nature, he was not a son of Abraham's faith. Isaac was also in a certain sense born like Ishmael after the flesh, because he was naturally descended from Abraham; but not of the flesh merely, nor of the flesh naturally, — for according to the course of nature he never would have been born, — but at the same time he was more. He was not only a son of Abraham's flesh, but his son as born after the Spirit, because he was given to Abraham, after, by the course of nature, he could not hope for children.

All this indicated the distinction that existed in the nation of Israel, between those who, notwithstanding their being born in the line of Isaac, were the seed of Abraham merely by carnal descent, and not the children of God by a spiritual regeneration. Only these last were the children of the promise, as Isaac was, who were all one in Christ Jesus, and therefore in the highest sense Abraham's seed, and 'heirs according to the promise,' Galatians 3:29 — heirs of all the spiritual blessings secured to Abraham by promise. 'Paul,' says Calvin, 'now deduces from the prophecy a proposition containing his whole meaning, intent, and aim. For if the seed is called in Isaac, not in Ishmael, and this latter is no less a son of the patriarch Abraham than the former, all his children by lineal descent cannot be reckoned as his seed; but the promise is in an especial and peculiar manner fulfilled by some, but has not a common and equal regard to all. Children by lineal descent mean such as are not distinguished by a more excellent privilege than their being offspring by blood; children of the promise are those who are peculiarly marked out and sealed by their Heavenly Father.'

Ver. 9. — For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

The birth of Isaac was by promise, and without a miracle it would never have taken place. But the birth of Ishmael was not by promise, but in the ordinary course of nature. Thus the children of God specially promised to Abraham were those who, according to the election of God (who had chosen Isaac in preference to Ishmael), were to come into a spiritual relation with Christ, who is emphatically the promised seed in the line of Isaac, Galatians 3:16. To them the spiritual blessings were restricted, while only the temporal advantages of the national covenant belonged to the whole of Israel. This was intimated in God's dealings with Abraham.

Ver. 10. — And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; Not only in the case of Isaac was the election limited to him as the son of promise, but also in a still more remarkable instance was this truth indicated in the case of the two sons of Isaac. They were conceived by Rebecca of the same husband, yet God chose the one and rejected the other. An original difference between Isaac and Ishmael might be alleged, since the one was born of the lawful wife of Abraham, the free woman, and the other was the son of the bond woman; but in the case now brought forward there existed no original difference. Both were sons of the same father and mother, and both were born at the same time. The great distinction, then, made between the two brothers could only be traced to the sovereign will of God, who thus visibly notified, long before the event, the difference of the Divine purpose, according to election, towards the people of Israel.

Ver. 11. — (For the children being not yet born, neither have done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;) In the case of Isaac and Ishmael, it might still be said, that as the latter, as soon as he came to years, gave evidence of a wicked disposition, this was a sufficient reason for preferring Isaac. But here, in a parenthesis the Apostle shows that the preference was given to Jacob independently of all ground of merit, because it was made before the children were capable of doing either good or evil. This was done for the very purpose of taking away all pretense for merit as a ground of preference. Had the preference been given to Jacob when he had grown up to maturity, there would have been no more real ground for ascribing it to anything good in him; yet that use would have been made of it by the perverse ingenuity of man. But God made the preference before the children were born. That the purpose of God according to election might stand — This was the very end and intention of the early indication of the will of God to Rebecca, the mother of the two children. It was hereby clearly established that, in choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau, God had respect to nothing but His own purpose. Than this what can more strongly declare His own eternal purpose to be the ground of all His favor to man? Not of works but of Him that calleth. — Expressions indicating God's sovereignty in this matter are heaped upon one another, because it is a thing so offensive to the human mind. Yet, after all the Apostle's precaution, the perverseness of men still finds ground of boasting on account of works. Though the children had done neither good nor evil, yet God, it is supposed, might foresee that Jacob would be a godly man, and Esau wicked. But had not God made a difference between Jacob and Esau, Jacob would have been no better than his brother. Were not men blinded by opposition to this part of the will of God, would they not perceive that a preference on account of foreseen good works is a preference on account of works, and therefore expressly contrary to the assertion of the Apostle — Not of works, but of Him that calleth? The whole ground of preference is in Him that calleth, or chooseth, not in him that is called. 'Paul,' says Calvin, 'had hitherto merely observed, in a few words, the difference between the carnal sons of Abraham; namely, though all by circumcision were made partakers of the covenant, yet the grace of God was not equally efficacious in all, and the sons of the promise enjoy the blessings of the Most High. He now plainly refers the whole cause to the gratuitous election of God, which in no respects depends on men, so that nothing can be traced in the salvation of believers higher than the goodness of God; nothing in the destruction of the reprobate can be discovered higher than the just severity of the Sovereign of the world. The first proposition of the Apostle is the following: — As the blessing of the covenant separates the nation of the Israelites from all other people, so the election of God separates the men of that nation, while He predestinates some to salvation, others to eternal damnation. The second proposition is, that there is no other foundation of election than the mere goodness and mercy of God, which embrace whom He chooses, without paying the least regard to works, even after the fall of Adam. Third, the Lord in His gratuitous election is free and unrestrained by the necessity of bestowing the same grace equally on all; He passes by such as He wills, and chooses for His own according to His will. Paul briefly comprehends all these propositions in one clause, and will afterwards consider other points. The following words, when they were not yet born, neither had done any good or evil, show that God, in making the difference between them, could have paid no regard to their works, which did not yet exist. Sophists, who state that God may elect from among mankind by a respect to their works, since He foresees from their future conduct who may be worthy or deserving of grace, attack a principle of theology which no Christian ought to be ignorant of; namely, that God can regard nothing in the corrupt nature of man, such as that of Jacob and Esau was, by which He may be induced to do them kindness. When, therefore, Paul says that neither of the children had done any good or evil, we must add also the opinion which he had already formed in his mind, of their both being children of Adam, sinners by nature, not possessed of a single particle of righteousness. Besides, although the vicious and depraved nature, which is diffused through the whole human race, be of itself sufficient to cause damnation before it has shown its unholiness by any act or deed, and Esau therefore deserved to be rejected, because he was by nature a child of wrath, yet to prevent the least difficulty, as if the state of the elder was worse with respect to the perpetration of any offense or vice than that of the younger, it was necessary for the Apostle to exclude the consideration both of transgressions and of virtues. I confess, indeed, that it is true that the near cause of reprobation is our being all cursed in Adam; but Paul withdraws us in the meantime from this consideration, that we may learn to rest in the naked and simple good pleasure of God, until he shall have established this doctrine, that the infinite Sovereign has a sufficiently just cause for election and reprobation, in His own will. He here urges, in almost every word, the gratuitous election of God; for had he considered works to have any place in our election, he would have stated the remuneration due to their performance. But he opposes to works the purpose of God, which consists in the good pleasure of His will. And to remove all doubts and controversy concerning the subject, he adds, according to election, and closes in a striking manner, — not of works, but of Him that calleth. The opinion, therefore, that God elects or reprobates every one according as He foresees good or evil in us, is false, and contrary to the word of eternal truth.'

For sake of time I quoted Robert Haldane one of a thousands past teachers I could have used. RB

[4WD]

Red,
All of that from Robert Haldane is yet another response from one who describes God as little more than an ogre who has created the vast majority of human beings solely for the pure pleasure (apparently) of assigning them to eternal condemnation. But that view of God from him, and you, is an incomprehensible description of God. I know you think it is scripture, but it is not.

[NyawehNyoh]

.
Who is Red Baker and why don't they do their own posting?
_

[Rella]

.
Who is Red Baker and why don't they do their own posting?
_[/]

Red Baker.... AKA RB is a long standing member on GC

He had his computer worked on and all his passwords were removed.

He does not remember the one for GC.

He is trying to get his grandson or another to help him with that problem.

Until he can get back on I told him he could use me and I would post his replies for him

The subject matter of this thread was his to start with. I thought it important enough to post here

[NyawehNyoh]

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Red Baker.... AKA RB is a long standing member on GC
He had his computer worked on and all his passwords were removed.

Ouch!
_

[Red Baker]

I'm back under my first name when I started back in 2008~"Red Baker" no longer RB