Tithing,

[Rella]

This seems to be a contentious topic among folks today. Even the staunchest of church goers.

Just looking for unidentified votes or any comments.

[Texas Conservative]

What folks?

[Rella]

What folks?

You want names....?

Rockson, koberstein, Behold, were talking about it and even got a thumbs up from praise_yeshua

Mikesw about tithing herbs...

TomL .. was in response to tithing being talked of as having stopped
in 70AD.

Thats enough....

My church does not talk of or demand a tithe. I often wonder where all the money comes from to keep things going and pay the minister.

Now if you don't want to give an opinion fine... I was just looking for another view point.

praise_yeshua had said Anyone that still demands that believers are bound by any principle whatsoever of a "tithe" is doing little more than building their own kingdom.

And I find that true of all televangelists.... They always have their hands out.

Anyway, TC, I thank you for your input. It is good to know you are still around and reading here.

[Jaime]

To me "give as we have been prospered" is an unspecified raising of the giving bar. Same as with don't just not commit the physical act of adultery, don't even have lust in your heart (Mathew 5:28) To me the tithe is in the category of  a minimim vs whatever the Spirit speaks to your heart. Letter vs spirit type thing, as with the entire Sermon on the Mount. Jesus raised the bar, he didn't throw the bar away.

[Texas Conservative]

Tithing is old covenant.  We are not under the OT Law as Christians.

However, Jesus said as written in Matthew 6 ""Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

I give money to my local congregation.  Which doesn't have a building (ha ha Buff), and I also give to two different missionaries overseas.

[Rella]

Tithing is old covenant.  We are not under the OT Law as Christians.

However, Jesus said as written in Matthew 6 ""Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

I give money to my local congregation.  Which doesn't have a building (ha ha Buff), and I also give to two different missionaries overseas.

Yes, it is Old Covenant but then Jesus said he did not come to replace the law but fulfill it.

When I saw the discussion by the others I thought I would gather opinions over here and by gum... both of you DID reply.

BTW I always make contributions and mom used to try and tithe (bible reading and televangelists) but came up somewhat short. I never told her that cause she would have worried, or told me I was wrong...

In any event, thanks guys.

[Jaime]

TC, Jesus raised the bar in the New Covenant. The spirit of the Law makes for a BROADER SITUATION, not a narrower one. It is infinitely easier to not murder tha it is to not have hate in my heart. Same thing with adultery and listnin your heart.

[Texas Conservative]

Yes, it is Old Covenant but then Jesus said he did not come to replace the law but fulfill it.

When I saw the discussion by the others I thought I would gather opinions over here and by gum... both of you DID reply.

BTW I always make contributions and mom used to try and tithe (bible reading and televangelists) but came up somewhat short. I never told her that cause she would have worried, or told me I was wrong...

In any event, thanks guys.

Jesus did fulfill it, and it is not abolished.


Romans 2:11-18

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

[Texas Conservative]

TC, Jesus raised the bar in the New Covenant. The spirit of the Law makes for a BROADER SITUATION, not a narrower one. It is infinitely easier to not murder tha it is to not have hate in my heart. Same thing with adultery and listnin your heart.

Jesus raised the bar to the Jews in the sermon on the mount.  To get them to realize they could not keep it.  Jesus fulfilled the law on the cross. 

When you are in Christ, you are no longer bound by the law, but by grace.

[Jaime]

Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fill it full with the spirit not just the letter. Christians are held to the Spirit of the Law as God intended it, not as the the Pharisees perverted or emptied it with the traditions of men as Jesus declared in Mark chapter 7. Jesus said the two greatest commandments are love God and love your neighbor, precisely summed up by the 10 commandments, not the Mosaic Law. We are still not to murder or covet, we are to honor or parents etc etc. we are NOT freed from those, and we are graciously empowered by the Holy Spirit in the New CovenantThe primary meaning of the word pleroo translated fulfill is as follows in Mathew 5:17 as it relates to the context of Mathew 5:

Strong's G4137

πληρόω
Transliteration: plēroō
Pronunciation: play-ro'-o
Part of Speech: verb
Root Word (Etymology): From πλήρης (G4134)
TDNT Reference: 6:286,867
Outline of Biblical Usage:
to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied
to render full, i.e. to complete
to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
to consummate: a number
to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

[Jaime]

Paul had some curious statements about the Law in Romans Chaoter 7 (vs 12) and Romans chapter 3 (vs :31) for a guy who was supposedly against the Law of God. The Law that the Pharisees perverted or effecfively emptied of God's original intent (called abolished) with their traditions of men, AKA the Oral Torah.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Tithing, ok.

Biblically, tithing is not usually done in money.  Tithes are levied on farmers against their crops.  The farmers DO have the option to redeem their drops by paying money instead of giving their fruits, but that is not usually done.  Tithes were never levied on laborer's wages.

If you're "tithing" on your wages, you're not following the Bible.  You're being defrauded.

[Jaime]

I don't believe tithing on a wage or salary is unreasonable since most of us don't grow crops for our livlihoods. Giving as we are prospered likewise can and should apply to a wage or salary. Either way giving as I am prospered is way harder than giving a 10 percent share. In other words, like with a lot of things Jesus RAISED the bar, he didn't abolish the bar. Similar to not being angry is infinitely harder than not murdering. I can anstain from mirder all day everyday
Without much effort.

[Rella]

Tithing, ok.

Biblically, tithing is not usually done in money.  Tithes are levied on farmers against their crops.  The farmers DO have the option to redeem their drops by paying money instead of giving their fruits, but that is not usually done.  Tithes were never levied on laborer's wages.

If you're "tithing" on your wages, you're not following the Bible.  You're being defrauded.

How so?

[Rella]

I don't believe tithing on a wage or salary is unreasonable since most of us don't grow crops for our livlihoods. Giving as we are prospered likewise can and should apply to a wage or salary. Either way giving as I am prospered is way harder than giving a 10 percent share. In other words, like with a lot of things Jesus RAISED the bar, he didn't abolish the bar. Similar to not being angry is infinitely harder than not murdering. I can anstain from mirder all day everyday
Without much effort.

Interesting.

But Someone making $15.00 an hour before taxes and then another 10%
is going to be a lot harder to offer then someone making hundreds of dollars an hour.

And.. Jesus praised the woman who gave the 2 mites and did not tell her not to do so... So there is that too.

[Jaime]

Yes, the woman with the two mites gave a "tithe" if you will, or an offering of 100%. She raises the bar in her case like Jesus did with his proper interpretation of the Law in the Sermon on the Mount in Mathew Chapter 5, "you have heard it said ..............., but I say to you."

[Cally]

(1) tithing should absolutely not be preached but (2) there is other law that dictates that we pay those who work in ministry, namely "you will not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain."

How an Old Testament law involving FOOD that is mostly eventually consumed by the same people who gave it turned into a doctrine for giving money to the church just shows how shallow church culture has made people's thinking. It's ludicrous. And if someone says that it's about giving to the high priests, yes indeed, the actual giving aspect was dependent on the priesthood, and ever since Jesus rose to his seat in heaven, he is the only high priest now, NOT your pastor, and to say otherwise is absolutely blasphemy.

[Jaime]

To me it was a reasonable amount of crops produced. Not too excessive but enough for the giver to have "sacrificed" something. In my opinion a tithe or 10% is not anything but a rough guideine of what God may expect as a sacrificial gift whether corn, wheat, sheep or cash. In my opinion Paul RAISED that bar substantially by the admonition to give as we are prospered. A MUCH higher bar than a 10% requirement.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

How so?

It's because that isn't how tithes work in the Bible.

The Bible levies tithes on your crops if you're a farmer.  These are collected once a year.  Those tithes go into the storehouse to be kept and distributed in the event there is a famine in the land.

They had laborers in Old Testament times.  They didn't tithe on their wages.

If someone is telling you that you OWE a tenth of your labor-income to God based on Old Testament tithing, then they're defrauding you.  The Bible says no such thing.

That doesn't mean that a church can't ask for money, or even require it as a condition of membership.  But they shouldn't pretend that the Bible demands it this way.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

(1) tithing should absolutely not be preached but (2) there is other law that dictates that we pay those who work in ministry, namely "you will not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain."

How an Old Testament law involving FOOD that is mostly eventually consumed by the same people who gave it turned into a doctrine for giving money to the church just shows how shallow church culture has made people's thinking. It's ludicrous. And if someone says that it's about giving to the high priests, yes indeed, the actual giving aspect was dependent on the priesthood, and ever since Jesus rose to his seat in heaven, he is the only high priest now, NOT your pastor, and to say otherwise is absolutely blasphemy.

This is perfect.  I agree with this completely.

[Jaime]

I don't think anyone thinks tithing is a requirement, but it definitely could be argued as 10% is a reasonable pattern. To me personally, the New Testamant admonition by Paul to give as we have been prospered is much more challenging. It exposes our heart even though we are given that freedom. It's the very same to me as don't just not murder, don't harbor anger in your heart. It is infinitely easy for me to not murder, but curtailing anger in my heart is MUCH more difficult. I can easily not commit the physical act of  adultery, but getting control of my thoughts is way more difficult. A tithe requirement is one thing, but a sacrificial offering as I have been prospered is difficult to guage. I believe we should give sacrificially and that is probably different for everyone. For me I need to push the comfort level because I tend to depend on circumstances or my own abilities and not always trusting God's provision. The  ee Covenant is not simply removing letter of thenLaw rules, it IS pushing us to rely on our hearts which was thenoriginal i tent of God's commands as Jesus properly interpretted or filled full the Law in Mathew 5 opposite of the traditions of men demanded by the Pharisees in their perverted application of God's commandments.

[Cally]

This is perfect.  I agree with this completely.

Thanks!

I don't think anyone thinks tithing is a requirement, but it definitely could be argued as 10% is a reasonable pattern.

The last couple of churches I went to were pro-tithing (if the head pastor is anything to go by), like it's a law to be followed just as much today as ever.

The real reason it's a problem is because it is outright blasphemy. It amounts to an argument about who the current and final high priest is, who is Jesus. No human being has the right to collect tithe ever since Jesus rose to heaven.

And when people conflate it with the topic of giving, I say, why not preach indulgences while you're at it, then? The doctrine that's used is extremely important.

[Jaime]

There is no justification for a tithe requirement, though giving as we are prospered has always left me feeling I didn't do enough as compared to my blessings. I know it's not a quid pro quo situation, but God always blesses me when I stretch the amount of my giving at church, and charitable activities etc. God doesn't need my money, but the process of giving shapes and molds us in our dependence on God. It probably depends on how we as individuals view "tithing" - as a maximum goal or a minimum floor amount, or somewhere in between. I do not look at "giving as we are prospered" as providing me a break from sacrificial giving. I definitely do not agree with a church requiring a tithe. Some churches use the term tithing as synonymous with giving and not equivalent to a percentage, kinda like Sunday being called the Sabbath in some circles.

[Hobie]

Tithing is old covenant.  We are not under the OT Law as Christians.

However, Jesus said as written in Matthew 6 ""Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

I give money to my local congregation.  Which doesn't have a building (ha ha Buff), and I also give to two different missionaries overseas.

Yes, dont help anyone that does anything beyond your block and check out those missionaries to make sure they arent giving it to Gaza and Hamas. What part of Christ message did you miss...

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 26:13
Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Mark 1:14
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

And how shall it be done if we withhold the means to do it...