KING JAMES' BLUNDERS

[Reformer]

The Conspicuous Blunders of
King James

Q. "Buff, regarding a recent column on the KJV and 'church,' I suspect you are also aware that 'baptize/baptism' also isn't a biblical term. It was another one of King James' inventions. 'Baptism' is a transliteration of 'dip' or 'immerse.' I live in Holland and in the Dutch Bibles the word used is to 'dip.' No transliteration here. As to 'church,' we call ourselves the 'community of Christ' in Dutch."—Sandi.

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This is all quite interesting, Sandi. The late W. Carl Ketcherside, a scholar among scholars, whose knowledge was not achieved by underwriting the partisan language of Seminaries and Theological institutions, often said the Greek "ekklesia" should have been translated "community."

It might interest you to know that William Tyndale's translation of the New Testament scriptures was published in 1525, almost 100 years before The King James Version made its appearance. He translated ekklesia "congregation" and baptizo "immerse" and was condemned to death by the Religious Establishment of the Papal as a heretic. Additionally, Hugh J. Schonfield's Authentic New Testament (1955) renders Matthew 16:18, "Upon that rock I will found my community."

If the Greek "baptizo" had been translated accurately by King James' scholars, or if he had permitted them to translate the term correctly, sprinkling in the place of immersion may never have gotten off the ground. And if the Greek ekklesia had been accurately rendered, "Churchitis" might not have surfaced.

Sects and religious parties will, of course, always be with us, as they were 2,000 years ago, but not the spiritual disease I call "Churchitis." When man tampers with divine revelation and takes it upon himself to distort the Holy Spirit's vocabulary, digression is just over the horizon—in fact, it has arrived already, long ago.—Buff.

[Texas Conservative]

The Conspicuous Blunders of
King James

Q. "Buff, regarding a recent column on the KJV and 'church,' I suspect you are also aware that 'baptize/baptism' also isn't a biblical term. It was another one of King James' inventions. 'Baptism' is a transliteration of 'dip' or 'immerse.' I live in Holland and in the Dutch Bibles the word used is to 'dip.' No transliteration here. As to 'church,' we call ourselves the 'community of Christ' in Dutch."—Sandi.

<><><>

This is all quite interesting, Sandi. The late W. Carl Ketcherside, a scholar among scholars, whose knowledge was not achieved by underwriting the partisan language of Seminaries and Theological institutions, often said the Greek "ekklesia" should have been translated "community."

It might interest you to know that William Tyndale's translation of the New Testament scriptures was published in 1525, almost 100 years before The King James Version made its appearance. He translated ekklesia "congregation" and baptizo "immerse" and was condemned to death by the Religious Establishment of the Papal as a heretic. Additionally, Hugh J. Schonfield's Authentic New Testament (1955) renders Matthew 16:18, "Upon that rock I will found my community."

If the Greek "baptizo" had been translated accurately by King James' scholars, or if he had permitted them to translate the term correctly, sprinkling in the place of immersion may never have gotten off the ground. And if the Greek ekklesia had been accurately rendered, "Churchitis" might not have surfaced.

Sects and religious parties will, of course, always be with us, as they were 2,000 years ago, but not the spiritual disease I call "Churchitis." When man tampers with divine revelation and takes it upon himself to distort the Holy Spirit's vocabulary, digression is just over the horizon—in fact, it has arrived already, long ago.—Buff.

"Churchitis" was there 2000 years ago, and before.  It is part of the human condition to distort what the God says.

[Amo]

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Why trifle such about translations such as dip, or immerse. We have the scriptures before us, and the meaning of baptism well explained in the King James and others. Baptism is a public confession of one's sinful nature and desire to die with and be hid in Christ Jesus our Lord, and be spiritually resurrected within this life unto new creatures in Christ Jesus. If people will reject this truth, then what does it matter about being dipped, or immersed? No, but baptism means so much more than just being dipped or immersed.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

...Baptism means so much more than just being dipped or immersed.

Baptism is an adoption ceremony.  It's a shame to the church that this basic tenet of the faith is not well-understood by most of the laity.

[Reformer]

"Churchitis" was there 2000 years ago, and before.  It is part of the human condition to distort what the God says.

Really? Did Moses "have a church in the wilderness?" King James says he did. As well as one under David. Was it a Baptist sect, a Lutheran sect, or one of the others? There's an ample supply of them. Take your pick.

[Reformer]

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Why trifle such about translations such as dip, or immerse. We have the scriptures before us, and the meaning of baptism well explained in the King James and others. Baptism is a public confession of one's sinful nature and desire to die with and be hid in Christ Jesus our Lord, and be spiritually resurrected within this life unto new creatures in Christ Jesus. If people will reject this truth, then what does it matter about being dipped, or immersed? No, but baptism means so much more than just being dipped or immersed.

It is apparent the early believers understood and practiced baptizo as immersion—or complete covering. "And he (Philip) commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized (immersed) him. And when they both came out of the water..." (Acts 8:38-40).

"Going down into the water" and "coming out of the water" entails far more than dipping, sprinkling, or spraying. See also Acts 10:47. It is interesting that when Jesus was immersed—covered over or overwhelmed—"He went up from the water..." - a strong indication He went down into the water, for one cannot come out of the water without first going down into the water. Again, sprinkling, spraying, or dipping are not implied.

Believers are "baptized" with the Holy Spirit. If "baptizo" can be translated dipped, sprinklered, or sprayed, which of these did you receive when you gave your life to the Lord? I could share more and more, but this is enough again to counter King James.

[Hobie]

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Why trifle such about translations such as dip, or immerse. We have the scriptures before us, and the meaning of baptism well explained in the King James and others. Baptism is a public confession of one's sinful nature and desire to die with and be hid in Christ Jesus our Lord, and be spiritually resurrected within this life unto new creatures in Christ Jesus. If people will reject this truth, then what does it matter about being dipped, or immersed? No, but baptism means so much more than just being dipped or immersed.

Snipe hunt comes to mind, as true students of the Bible know that full immersion is baptism, while sprinkling is of pagan origin and not scriptural to say the least.

[Amo]

We all agree, there is nothing in scripture about sprinkling as baptism. There is the public confession of faith by baptism representing the believers death, burial, and resurrection in Christ Jesus our lord. And the baptism of the Holy Spirit of God involving the actual implementation of the sacrifice of the believers will, to that of God's will being performed within. The latter being fulfilled in many different forms and manifestations.

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

[DaveW]

The way I heard it was that King Jimmy was asked by the translators when they came to bapto and baptizo. The practice was sprinkling.  Since he was already in trouble with the Church of England hierarchy, he did not want to make them more upset with him by actually translating them as "dip," "immerse," etc, so he told them just to anglicize the words so no one could tell what they actually meant.

[DaveW]

BTW - King Jimmy was so arrogant that he wanted HIS name in the text.  So everywhere in the NT when the Greek was Iakōbos, Jacob, he had the translators write in "James."

[Rella]

BTW - King Jimmy was so arrogant that he wanted HIS name in the text.  So everywhere in the NT when the Greek was Iakōbos, Jacob, he had the translators write in "James."

I vaguely remember hearing that about Jimmy.

What an egotist.

BTW I got it again

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[Jaime]

Rella  I assume you need to send a note to admin. I have no idea of how the forum was changed with the recent renovation.