Calvinism, It's just not lining up with Scripture.

[Dave...]

I once considered myself a Calvinist. I'm not so sure any more. 

I still maintain that God is sovereign over man, and have no problem with that. My understanding in Scripture is not motivated by humanism.

I no longer support the idea of total depravity. Every proof verse used by Calvinism shows people who can still believe, or could believe unless they were otherwise judicially hardened. In my opinion, the whole system of Tulip falls with that.

But that's just the icing on the cake. So many of the proof texts used by Calvinism to claim God chose people for salvation from His eternal decree, in fact, those passages are speaking of true OT believers. Lydia, Cornelius, etc., all OT true believers. So "appointed to eternal life" etc. was not motivated by God's choice in eternity, but rather mans in time. "All that the Father gives me...."---OT believers, "Sheep..."---OT believers, "For whom He foreknew, He Predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness..."---OT believers.

OT believers were not indwelt, and thus could not yet be born again born, yet they believed (John 7:39). There's no getting around it. I tried. They were due the Promise of the Father, and those who already believed the Gospel received Him at Pentecost. Some still needed to hear the Gospel, then they received Him. While many others where already physically dead, having died not receiving the promises.

The missing element is the distinction in relationship between man and the Holy Spirit from OT to NT. Calvinism assumes it's the same. That's a big mistake and one of the main reasons that it's interpretation of many of these passages is in error. 

I'm finding that Calvinism's interpretation of many of it's proof texts are without context. They are mostly relying on the TULIP system for context, and not the Bible. It's assumed that TULIP is Biblical. It appears to me to be one assumption built on another. A house of cards, if you will.

Anyways, I just thought I would go on record.

Dave 

[Rella]

I once considered myself a Calvinist. I'm not so sure any more. 

I still maintain that God is sovereign over man, and have no problem with that. My understanding in Scripture is not motivated by humanism.

I no longer support the idea of total depravity. Every proof verse used by Calvinism shows people who can still believe, or could believe unless they were otherwise judicially hardened. In my opinion, the whole system of Tulip falls with that.

But that's just the icing on the cake. So many of the proof texts used by Calvinism to claim God chose people for salvation from His eternal decree, in fact, those passages are speaking of true OT believers. Lydia, Cornelius, etc., all OT true believers. So "appointed to eternal life" etc. was not motivated by God's choice in eternity, but rather mans in time. "All that the Father gives me...."---OT believers, "Sheep..."---OT believers, "For whom He foreknew, He Predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness..."---OT believers.

OT believers were not indwelt, and thus could not yet be born again born, yet they believed (John 7:39). There's no getting around it. I tried. They were due the Promise of the Father, and those who already believed the Gospel received Him at Pentecost. Some still needed to hear the Gospel, then they received Him. While many others where already physically dead, having died not receiving the promises.

The missing element is the distinction in relationship between man and the Holy Spirit from OT to NT. Calvinism assumes it's the same. That's a big mistake and one of the main reasons that it's interpretation of many of these passages is in error. 

I'm finding that Calvinism's interpretation of many of it's proof texts are without context. They are mostly relying on the TULIP system for context, and not the Bible. It's assumed that TULIP is Biblical. It appears to me to be one assumption built on another. A house of cards, if you will.

Anyways, I just thought I would go on record.

Dave

 

[garee]

[garee]

The letter of the law (as it is written or what the eyes see ) thou shall not = death.

New creation not rebuilt or reconditioned

Born again believers living in bodies of death are carrying out the letter therefore we have the power of the gospel of Christ  working in us but would never assume its power is of us dead mankind . 

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Total depravity. .  totality dead in ones trespass and sin without Christ in the present world

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

OT believers like Abel the second born the prophet, apostle martyr was indwelt.

Abel the second born was used to represent Christ the spiritual seed that effectively works in believers.

Cain firstborn, The first murder of the father of lies(john 8:44)  was changed from first born to second born . Christ our Holy Father  replaced Abel with another second born Enos passed down again and again until the birth of Jesus the son of man .The first born of many sons of God .

It was then that born again mankind could be heard on high .Must be born again.   
Not a new testament principle

 
Genesis 4: 25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

[Dave...]

Sorry for the slow reply guys. I was having trouble logging in. Apparently, if you update your email address to gmail, the activation message goes directly to the spam folder. I figured it out.  

This may sound far fetched from the traditional discussions, but I don't believe that any OT believer was indwelt, and thus born again until Pentecost. In short, promises don't cleanse temples, blood does. That's one of the reasons why the indwelling had to wait.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

The missing context of Calvinism...these believed, but were not indwelt or born again.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

It's far from the norm of understanding today. That's why nobody takes it seriously. But I've spent a lot of time on this and believe it's right. Understanding the baptism with the Holy Spirit is key, me thinks. I think everyone was in Adam until Pentecost.

Anyways, thanks for the relies and encouragement. I'm hoping to get into this stuff and test it using the Calvinist's here. See what happens. Iron sharpens iron.

Dave

[4WD]

Sorry for the slow reply guys. I was having trouble logging in. Apparently, if you update your email address to gmail, the activation message goes directly to the spam folder. I figured it out.  

This may sound far fetched from the traditional discussions, but I don't believe that any OT believer was indwelt, and thus born again until Pentecost. In short, promises don't cleanse temples, blood does. That's one of the reasons why the indwelling had to wait.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

The missing context of Calvinism...these believed, but were not indwelt or born again.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

It's far from the norm of understanding today. That's why nobody takes it seriously. But I've spent a lot of time on this and believe it's right. Understanding the baptism with the Holy Spirit is key, me thinks. I think everyone was in Adam until Pentecost.

Anyways, thanks for the relies and encouragement. I'm hoping to get into this stuff and test it using the Calvinist's here. See what happens. Iron sharpens iron.

Dave

I would agree with you that regeneration, i.e., being born again, is a New Covenant gift. Under the Old Covenant, forgiveness was given but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not given universally to those who were being saved.

I believe that is demonstrated by the events presented in Acts 19 with the disciples that Paul engaged with in Ephesus who were definitely believers in God but had only been baptized with the baptism of John the Baptist.  That is the distinction between John's baptism and Christian baptism called for by Peter in Acts 2:38.  Both were baptism of repentance, but the baptism that Peter preached, in contrast to the baptism that John the Baptist preached, was baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.  It that baptism, not only are sins forgiven, but additionally the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is given as well.

I would only add here that being given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit.

[Jaime]

I would agree with you that regeneration, i.e., being born again, is a New Covenant gift. Under the Old Covenant, forgiveness was given but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not given universally to those who were being saved.

I believe that is demonstrated by the events presented in Acts 19 with the disciples that Paul engaged with in Ephesus who were definitely believers in God but had only been baptized with the baptism of John the Baptist.  That is the distinction between John's baptism and Christian baptism called for by Peter in Acts 2:38.  Both were baptism of repentance, but the baptism that Peter preached, in contrast to the baptism that John the Baptist preached, was baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.  It that baptism, not only are sins forgiven, but additionally the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is given as well.

I would only add here that being given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit.

That is my understanding as well.

[garee]

Sorry for the slow reply guys. I was having trouble logging in. Apparently, if you update your email address to gmail, the activation message goes directly to the spam folder. I figured it out.  

This may sound far fetched from the traditional discussions, but I don't believe that any OT believer was indwelt, and thus born again until Pentecost. In short, promises don't cleanse temples, blood does. That's one of the reasons why the indwelling had to wait.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

The missing context of Calvinism...these believed, but were not indwelt or born again.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

It's far from the norm of understanding today. That's why nobody takes it seriously. But I've spent a lot of time on this and believe it's right. Understanding the baptism with the Holy Spirit is key, me thinks. I think everyone was in Adam until Pentecost.

Anyways, thanks for the relies and encouragement. I'm hoping to get into this stuff and test it using the Calvinist's here. See what happens. Iron sharpens iron.

Dave

I would offer to make sure we do not violate the two loving laws given by Christ to protect the the integrity of the living abiding word--- from what I call "spiritual plagiarism"--- adding or subtracting from the living word of God--- with oral traditions of dying mankind .

The first loving commandment do not add or subtract the meaning from one word it can change the authority of all in violation of the first loving commandment to have no gods before our invisible Holy Father. The god of this world the Plagiarist

Deuteronomy 4 King James Version 2 Ye shall not add unto the word(singular)  which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it(singular), that ye may keep the commandments(plural)  of the Lord your God which I command you

Another at the end to protect the integrity of the whole . Both working as two witness working as one
 
Its easy to see the number one word for some reason left in the Greek Apostle  which with no other meaning added is sent one sent. Sent  with a list of words sent by our Holy Father as in how beautiful are the feet of Pony express, Uber, Fed X, Amazon, My wives favorite apostle Mr. Glee the errand boy send him off to the supermarket  with ten items. upon returning home mission accomplished the apostles reward two home made peanut butter cookies and a glass of cold milk   

Abel the apostle the beginning law of dying--- mankind  "must be born again" was murdered first martyr, apostles... sent with prophecy .(not sent with oral tradition of dying men) call a succession of dying fathers 

Define the word apostle and show a example as to why non-venerable mankind pew warmers venerate sent ones  above all things written in the law and prophets .

They should of used the true sent messengers not a legion of what some call patron saint gods male and female in the likeness of dying mankind s .

 
Genesis 4: 25-26 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Not began to call at Pentecost the reformation

[Dave...]

I would agree with you that regeneration, i.e., being born again, is a New Covenant gift. Under the Old Covenant, forgiveness was given but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not given universally to those who were being saved.

I believe that is demonstrated by the events presented in Acts 19 with the disciples that Paul engaged with in Ephesus who were definitely believers in God but had only been baptized with the baptism of John the Baptist.  That is the distinction between John's baptism and Christian baptism called for by Peter in Acts 2:38.  Both were baptism of repentance, but the baptism that Peter preached, in contrast to the baptism that John the Baptist preached, was baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.  It that baptism, not only are sins forgiven, but additionally the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is given as well.

I would only add here that being given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit.

Hey 4wd

Just to be clear, you're not claiming water baptism for salvation, are you? Sorry if I misunderstood.

Dave

[Jaime]

I think he is saying water baptism in Jesus'name IS where the Spirit baptism occurs. As with the 3000 in Acts 2, it refers to that as being FOR forgiveness of sin AND the indwelling of the Spirit is conveyed. Are you saying it's not? The Spirit UPON as at Pentecost and in Acts chapter 10 with Cornelius and his family was for very specific enumerated purposes. In water baptism, the H2O is spiritually inert. The work in Baptism in Jesus name is not done by the water, but BY God IN the water.

[Dave...]

I would offer to make sure we do not violate the two loving laws given by Christ to protect the the integrity of the living abiding word--- from what I call "spiritual plagiarism"--- adding or subtracting from the living word of God--- with oral traditions of dying mankind .

The first loving commandment do not add or subtract the meaning from one word it can change the authority of all in violation of the first loving commandment to have no gods before our invisible Holy Father. The god of this world the Plagiarist

Deuteronomy 4 King James Version 2 Ye shall not add unto the word(singular)  which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it(singular), that ye may keep the commandments(plural)  of the Lord your God which I command you

Another at the end to protect the integrity of the whole . Both working as two witness working as one
 
Its easy to see the number one word for some reason left in the Greek Apostle  which with no other meaning added is sent one sent. Sent  with a list of words sent by our Holy Father as in how beautiful are the feet of Pony express, Uber, Fed X, Amazon, My wives favorite apostle Mr. Glee the errand boy send him off to the supermarket  with ten items. upon returning home mission accomplished the apostles reward two home made peanut butter cookies and a glass of cold milk 

Abel the apostle the beginning law of dying--- mankind  "must be born again" was murdered first martyr, apostles... sent with prophecy .(not sent with oral tradition of dying men) call a succession of dying fathers 

Define the word apostle and show a example as to why non-venerable mankind pew warmers venerate sent ones  above all things written in the law and prophets .

They should of used the true sent messengers not a legion of what some call patron saint gods male and female in the likeness of dying mankind s .

 
Genesis 4: 25-26 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Not began to call at Pentecost the reformation

Thankyou for the note of warning. That's exactly why I'm standing against Calvinism publicly. Here's just a glimpse just so you don't think I'm making this up. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is Jesus placing the Holy Spirit in us. That's the indwelling. That began at Pentecost. This was a future promise in Ezekiel. Being indwelt, and being born again. 

EZ 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Just before Pentecost, still in the OT dispensation, and still a future promise.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Acts 1:4-5 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

The Promise of the Father is the Holy spirit indwelling promised all the way back to Ezekiel. The Holy Spirit did not enter into people who were unclean without the blood of Christ to cleanse. There was no atonement sacrifice yet made, there was no righteousness of God established by according to the Law that Jesus incarnate fulfilled, and there was no death and resurrection to identify with to be born again when we are placed into Christ. Everything that we needed to be saved, all the ingredients were first available at Pentecost. And the means to have access to all of it is the indwelling. That's why we needed to wait for Jesus to be lifted up and glorified. Mission accomplished.

The heroes of faith all died having not received the the promises. The types and the spiritual.

Hebrews 11:These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

I'll start some threads and start to build a foundation to approach these passages with. We'll get into all that. I'm looking forward to it.

Dave

[Dave...]

I think he is saying water baptism in Jesus'name IS where the Spirit baptism occurs. As with the 3000 in Acts 2, it refers to that as being FOR forgiveness of sin AND the indwelling of the Spirit is conveyed. Are you saying it's not? The Spirit UPON as at Pentecost and in Acts chapter 10 with Cornelius and his family was for very specific enumerated purposes. In water baptism, the H2O is spiritually inert. The work in Baptism in Jesus name is not done by the water, but BY God IN the water.

Thank Jamie.

4wd

It's a 'placing into' by faith. I can show a number of verses. Gal. 3:2-3 comes to mind. Ephesians 1:13-14. Even today, when we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling as a result of a genuine faith, that is the baptism [placing into] with [the agent of] the Holy Spirit, by Jesus.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

This through the resurrection of Jesus Christ happens when we are placed into Christ. We are both judicially saved and practically saved. When we are placed into Christ we are placed into His death (Gal. 1:20), and raised up with him (Eph 2:6), thus born again. In Christ we receive the imputed righteousness of God, the atonement applies, we are complete in Him and lacking nothing.

Water baptism is a type that points to a spiritual truth. It's a baptism by faith, not water. water baptism is a public testimony by symbolic picture of a spiritual reality that has already taken place.