What does the Bible teach us about the spiritual mechanics of being born again?

[garee]

Yes, But every mention of water is not metaphorical.  In John's baptism in the water of the Jordan River, water is not used metaphorically.

Hi Thanks for the reply.

I would offer. . .John baptism the priest  passed down the priesthood to the tribe of Judah the priesthood of believer to represent all the nation .


H20 used as  ceremonial law as shadow of the unseen eternal. A sign to the unbelieving world . Born again believers have the perfect no need to wonder wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy .

Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy would make the shadow the true substance.

Lucifer the false prophet  is blind to spiritual understanding of the gospel.

The father of lies a guessing god is not subject to the spiritual understanding of the parable revealed to the believers


The law of integrity---- do not add or subtract from sola scriptura .

Aarons two sons (witness of two) used the metaphor H20 as a personal sign as thier own oral tradition (strange fire) making the written tradition of Christ without effect.

To show it is a shadow of the unseen eternal a sign to the unbelieving world and not thier own dying flesh. The fire consumed the two----- up in smoke--- not a hint of smoke on the ceremonial attire .

The ceremonial attire as a shadow looked ahead to the sufferings of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow the three days and night prophesied demonstration of the Lamb slain during the 6 days the Holy Father did work 
 
1 Peter 1:8-11 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your (born again) faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
 
The one purpose of a parable the signified understanding using the temporal things seen the historical and mix with the unseen eternal Spirit that works in the born again sons of God called Christians. .  hid from those who do not trust prophecy a sign of wonderment to draw them into sola scriptura   


Numbers 3:3-5King James Version These are the names of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he consecrated to minister in the priest's office. And Nadab and Abihu died before the Lord, when they offered strange fire before the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest's office in the sight of Aaron their father. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Ceremonial laws are alone used for ceremonies a religious observance not a religious action .In that way His kingdom does not come by observing dying mankind  .
 
Luke 17:20 DRA And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come? he answered them, and said: The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luke 17:20 ERV Some of the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will God's kingdom come?" Jesus answered, "God's kingdom is coming, but not in a way that you can see it.

Luke 17:20 EASY Then some Pharisees asked Jesus a question. 'When will the kingdom of God begin here?' Jesus replied, 'When God begins to rule here, people will not see it with their eyes

   

[4WD]

Hi Thanks for the reply.

I would offer. . .John baptism the priest  passed down the priesthood to the tribe of Judah the priesthood of believer to represent all the nation .

The cleansing rituals of the old law was a self-cleansing action; it was not administered by another. The baptism of John was a completely new sort of ritual performed by him and by Jesus, in the persons of his disciples, the twelve. It was not any sort of carryover from the old priesthood.

[Rella]

The cleansing rituals of the old law was a self-cleansing action; it was not administered by another. The baptism of John was a completely new sort of ritual performed by him and by Jesus, in the persons of his disciples, the twelve. It was not any sort of carryover from the old priesthood.

4WD

I asked Grok and he replied...

No — John's baptism was not a "completely new" ritual invented out of thin air.

It was a new application of existing Jewish purification practices, but with a radical new meaning tied to repentance for the kingdom — and Jesus' disciples continued it in His name.

John's baptism was not a carryover from the old priesthood.

It was a prophetic adaptation of Jewish ritual washings (mikveh, proselyte baptism),
with a new message: "Repent, the kingdom is near!"

Jesus' disciples continued it — first under John's model, then in Jesus' name (Acts 2:38).

[Jaime]

John's baptism did not convey the gift of the Holy Spirit, but  baptism in Jesus' name DID convey the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-6

1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior regions and came to Ephesus. He found some disciples
2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? "
"No," they told him, "we haven't even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3 "Into what then were you baptized? " he asked them.
"Into John's baptism," they replied.
4 Paul said, "John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe in the one who would come after him, that is, in Jesus."
5 When they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy.

Presumably Paul laid hands on them to convey the Spirit UPON (tongues and prophesy) rather than the indwelling gift they got when baptised in Jesus' name.

[garee]

John's baptism did not convey the gift of the Holy Spirit, but  baptism in Jesus' name DID convey the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Presumably Paul laid hands on them to convey the Spirit UPON (tongues and prophesy) rather than the indwelling gift they got when baptised in Jesus' name.

Can't separate the gift from the baptism .

The baptism of new born again spirit life---- is the gift of eternal life.

[Jaime]

Can't separate the gift from the baptism .

The baptism of new born again spirit life---- is the gift of eternal life.

Paul conveyed the Spirit UPON to them for a purpose. They had the indwelling gift as a result of bapfism in Christ's name. Same as me personally. I have never had the Spirit UPON with tongues and prophecy. I am assurred of my indwelling gift of the Spirit as promised at my baptism in Christ's name. Therefore the gift of prophecy and to tongues IS or usually IS seperate from water baptism in Christ's name, as the verse above indicates.

[4WD]

Paul conveyed the Spirit UPON to them for a purpose. They had the indwelling gift as a result of bapfism in Christ's name. Same as me personally. I have never had the Spirit UPON with tongues and prophecy. I am assurred of my indwelling gift of the Spirit as promised at my baptism in Christ's name. Therefore the gift of prophecy and to tongues IS or usually IS seperate from water baptism in Christ's name, as the verse above indicates.

HEAR!! HEAR!!

I would add that the gift of prophecy, tongues and all signs, wonders and miracles ALWAYS IS separate from water baptism in Christ's name, as the verse above indicates.

[4WD]

4WD

I asked Grok and he replied...

No — John's baptism was not a "completely new" ritual invented out of thin air.

It was a new application of existing Jewish purification practices, but with a radical new meaning tied to repentance for the kingdom — and Jesus' disciples continued it in His name.

John's baptism was not a carryover from the old priesthood.

It was a prophetic adaptation of Jewish ritual washings (mikveh, proselyte baptism),
with a new message: "Repent, the kingdom is near!"

Jesus' disciples continued it — first under John's model, then in Jesus' name (Acts 2:38).

The Jewish ritual washings were self administered and not administered by another.  So yes I believe that John's baptism was a new thing to the Jews.

In a very real sense, the idea of individual repentance was new. You do not find the word or concept of that much at all in the OT.  Repenting and repentance was used more in the sense of national repentance.  See for example Ezekiel 14:6; 18:30.

[garee]

The Jewish ritual washings were self administered and not administered by another.  So yes I believe that John's baptism was a new thing to the Jews.

In a very real sense, the idea of individual repentance was new. You do not find the word or concept of that much at all in the OT.  Repenting and repentance was used more in the sense of national repentance.  See for example Ezekiel 14:6; 18:30.

John's baptism was used and represented as a parable .Which without parables Christ our teaching master spoke not.

The priesthood passed on from the tribe of Levi to the new testament after Jesus the Son of man from the tribe of Judah (the tribe that represents Christianity)  named by the father in Acts named after Christ our Holy Father.'
 

In that baptism parable using water to represent the unseen eternal work of our Holy Father.

Aarons two sons on thier first day of entering the priesthood of dying mankind   Both added to the living word with thier own 15 second of false fame .


The strange fire(adding to the word)  they offered (look we did it. . it proves we are righteous, consumed them both not a hint of smoke on the priestly attire .

Believer have prohecy till he end of time .Its a un-redeemed  generation like that of Aarons two sons that seeks after lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after just as if true prophecy  We have the perfect sealed with 7 seals till the end of time . No need to wonder, wonder, wonder, limbo after if we have the eternal living word

The house of Israel. Remember the word Israel is used in two ways .Satan having no spiritual understanding would make it all one in the same


Not all Israel is born agin Israel some remained as Jacob the second born meaning "the deceiver". His new born again name Israel

The Lord gives us a beautiful parable I beleive teaching us that repentance is a work of Christ who is not served by the dying hands as a will of mankind .

In the parable he uses a Bollock as a metaphor to represent un-redeemed mankind.

Therefore having no interest in the things of the lord. The Lord as Christ  performs his two part surgery spoken of in Philippian 2:13.  God our Holy Father---faithfully working in dying mankind to both the key Again I emphasize both working as one to reveal his will and empowers them to do it to the Holy Father's good pleasure .

Two turning or works of repenting. Two the metaphor used in parables to represent the invisible things of God called faith. At the witness of one no doctrine can be validated . Two the Holy Father not seen working in the son of man Jesus seen . two husbands and wife, tow or three gather under the hearing of his living word he is there . two by two the church  etc.   

Jeremiah 31:18-20King James Version I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock (unredeemed) unaccustomed to the yoke: (1st) turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after(2nd) that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
 
Full circle God forgives---having been forgiven they are reminded to put away childish things .

Another example found in another repenting parable


 Like the parable of the Bullock. God using his living word to turn some and as a labor of love causes them to turn back to him the leader .

Our Holy Father hated the sign and wonders seekers like Nicodemus also
 
Revelation 2:1-6  King James Version2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love (hearing God and obeying). Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;(hear God moved by God)  or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Either Christ does all the work of repenting or he causes nothing .It becomes --"Let there be" and "it was good for nothing"

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

The Jewish ritual washings were self administered and not administered by another.  So yes I believe that John's baptism was a new thing to the Jews.

In a very real sense, the idea of individual repentance was new. You do not find the word or concept of that much at all in the OT.  Repenting and repentance was used more in the sense of national repentance.  See for example Ezekiel 14:6; 18:30.

I'm not sure the idea of individual repentance is in the New Testament, either.

Baptism seems to be about joining a group, not improving oneself, or attaining to salvation on our own.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

The priesthood passed on from the tribe of Levi to the new testament after Jesus the Son of man from the tribe of Judah (the tribe that represents Christianity)  named by the father in Acts named after Christ our Holy Father.'

The Levitical priesthood wasn't passed on to someone else.  It straight up ended.

Jesus became high priest in an entirely different order.  Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek; He did not become part of the Aaronic/Levitical priesthood.

Hebrews 7

[Jaime]

I'm not sure the idea of individual repentance is in the New Testament, either.

Baptism seems to be about joining a group, not improving oneself, or attaining to salvation on our own.

Peter's command in Acts 2:38 to REPENT and be baptised was nothing but a command TO individuals FOR forgiveness of sins and TO receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

As a result:

Acts 2:47 —> praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. Every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.

HOW were they saved? (see Acts 2:38) ny repenting, and being baptised for forgiveness of sin and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Where is your disconnect on this? Why would you say it's not to improve one's self or about salvation, but only of joining a group? Seems rather straight straight forward to me.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Peter's command in Acts 2:38 to REPENT and be baptised was nothing but a command TO individuals FOR forgiveness of sins and TO receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I would quibble with the bolded part.

Peter was addressing the whole congregation of Israel that had assembled for the prescribed feast.  It isn't obvious that this is about individuals.

As a result:

Acts 2:47 —> praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. Every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.

Yes, they joined the group.

HOW were they saved? (see Acts 2:38) by repenting, and being baptised for forgiveness of sin and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, by repenting... Repentance isn't about individuals.  It's the abolition of the individual bringing their mind into conformity with the group.

Yes, by baptism.... baptism for proselytes is an adoption ceremony.  It's all about inclusion in a group.

Yes, by the gift of the Holy Spirit... which gift is the adoption (Romans 8).

Where is your disconnect on this? Why would you say it's not to improve one's self or about salvation, but only of joining a group? Seems rather straight straight forward to me.

No disconnect on my end.  Salvation has always been a group thing.  The elect aren't Tom, Dick, and Harry... the elect is Israel, from the front cover of the Bible to the back.

Salvation is a matter of a person (A) becoming part of a group (A ∈ Israel).

[Jaime]

Yes it Is an individual thing. For those that accept the free gift. They didn't join a group, God adds those who are saved to the church. The act or rite doesn't add them, God does the adding or grafting in of those being saved.  Baptism is where forgiveness of sin is conveyed as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit. Possession of forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit ARE salvation.  Baptism is not a punched ticket, it is dropping a clenched fist of resistance and accepting the free gift of salvation.

[Texas Conservative]

Yes it Is an individual thing. For those that accept the free gift. They didn't join a group, God adds those who are saved to the church. The act or rite doesn't add them, God does the adding or grafting in of those being saved.  Baptism is where forgiveness of sin is conveyed as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit. Possession of forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit ARE salvation.  Baptism is not a punched ticket, it is dropping a clenched fist of resistance and accepting the free gift of salvation.

No. Baptism is the ceremony connected to faith and it is definitely a connection to the group.  It was a formal declaration and belonging to Jesus.  In Israel the bodies of water would have been public.  The standard cofc understanding of baptism is too focused on "the remission of sins" and parses out faith and everything else. 

[Jaime]

It is an individual decision. It's purpose is for individual salvation. A result of being saved is we are added by God to Christ's church.

The original point someone made was that repentance was a national thing in the OT.  It is purely an individual decision in the NT, yet we ARE added by God to his congregation.

I assume a nation could definitely still turn from its wicked ways, but NT salvation is an individual thing.

[Texas Conservative]

It is an individual decision. It's purpose is for individual salvation. A result of being saved is we are added by God to Christ's church.

The original point someone made was that repentance was a national thing in the OT.  It is purely an individual decision in the NT, yet we ARE added by God to his congregation.

I assume a nation could definitely still turn from its wicked ways, but NT salvation is an individual thing.

You divorce baptism from faith.  You also miss there are other purposes accomplished in baptism

[Jaime]

You divorce baptism from faith.  You also miss there are other purposes accomplished in baptism

I haven't divorced baptism from faith. Faith is the pre-requisite 100% of the time, otherwise one just got ceremonially wet. That is or should be a universal truth. Otherwise carnival dunking booths would be salvational, and we ALL know that isn't the case.

Neither do I divorce confessing with one's lips that Jesus is Lord, since scripture should be taken cummulatively, and not cherry picked. That can only be OK when one is trying to dismiss baptism in Christ name as integral in salvation apparently.

[Texas Conservative]

I haven't divorced baptism from faith. Faith is the pre-requisite 100% of the time, otherwise one just got ceremonially wet. That is or should be a universal truth. Otherwise carnival dunking booths would be salvational, and we ALL know that isn't the case.

Neither do I divorce confessing with one's lips that Jesus is Lord, since scripture should be taken cummulatively, and not cherry picked. That can only be OK when one is trying to dismiss baptism in Christ name as integral in salvation apparently.

Faith is separate from baptism, but baptism is not separate from faith.  There are not five separate acts of salvation.  Baptism is a surrender of faith.  It isn't I who divorces baptism and parses it. 

[Jaime]

Faith is separate from baptism, but baptism is not separate from faith.  There are not five separate acts of salvation.  Baptism is a surrender of faith.  It isn't I who divorces baptism and parses it. 

It isn't me either. I have never divorced baptism from faith and do not advocate doing so. Baptism is a faith response. Inextricably linked to faith. There may be people that do what you said, I am not one of them. In my reckoning, baptism has never been parsed from faith in my view. That would be ludicrous. I just previously described it as a surrender of faith. Have I eseen people try to do that? Absolutely and yes they are wrong. 

In case I have been clear, a baptism does not  occur apart from faith. Getting wet does not  constitute a baptism or any other semblance of  a faith response.

Followup question: would true faith inspire a several year wait in one's scriptural faith response as many do? Do they  not try to divorce baptism from faith, the inverse of what you accuse me of and I adamantly AND ADEQUATELY have refuted

[garee]

It isn't me either. I have never divorced baptism from faith and do not advocate doing so. Baptism is a faith response. Inextricably linked to faith. There may be people that do what you said, I am not one of them. In my reckoning, baptism has never been parsed from faith in my virw. That would be ludicrous.

New born again creatures not reconditioned by reincarnation All things "let there be" new.

Christ creative faith "let there be" is always God alone--- good .

Most do not attribute the work of the powerful "Let there be" faith to God .as if it was not necessary to believe exercise the work of faith before things appear

[4WD]

I would quibble with the bolded part.

Peter was addressing the whole congregation of Israel that had assembled for the prescribed feast.  It isn't obvious that this is about individuals.

Act 2:38  And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That seems to me to be addressed to every individual that had assembled there.

[4WD]

Yes, by the gift of the Holy Spirit... which gift is the adoption (Romans 8).
No disconnect on my end.  Salvation has always been a group thing.  The elect aren't Tom, Dick, and Harry... the elect is Israel, from the front cover of the Bible to the back.

Salvation is a matter of a person (A) becoming part of a group (A ∈ Israel).

Becoming a part of the group is an individual thing by individually being forgiven of sins and being given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.  And that in response to the individual's believing.

[4WD]

Yes, by repenting... Repentance isn't about individuals.  It's the abolition of the individual bringing their mind into conformity with the group.

Repentance is absolutely about individuals.  Only the individual can repent.  The group cannot repent for the individual.

[garee]

Repentance is absolutely about individuals.  Only the individual can repent.  The group cannot repent for the individual.

How can a person repent if dead in their trespass and and sin without Hope in this world  without a living God?

Who does the first "let there be" and "it was a good work" of turning ?

God must first turn us so that we in return empowered by him can turn to him .Two turning .the law of two ---#1 According to the faithfulness of Christ ."Let there be" and #2-- the witness of the unseen work  - -and--- "it was God alone" good .

Two the law "Let there be" and working with to its testimony  as one voice.

Isaiah 8 informs us if they do not seek the understnding of our invible Holy Father according to the law of faith--- the invisible working of Christ, then there is no gospel light. 

They must rather seek after the legion of gods disembodied workers  with familiar spirit of the dead that some call patron saints .They reject the "Let there be" faithfulness of our faithful Creator Christ according to sola scriptura which they hate so they can serve the oral tradition of dying mankind as a law of the fathers .(two kinds of fathers )

Isaiah 8:19-20 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law(let there be) and to the testimony:(it was God alone good)  if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
 
The law of faith or the law of hearing the understanding of Christ not seen  two turnings by one powerful "Let there be"

Jeremiah 31:17-19 King James VersionI have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock(unredeemed)  unaccustomed to the yoke: (#1 "Let there be" )turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned,(#2 it was God alone good) )I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

[4WD]

How can a person repent if dead in their trespass and and sin without Hope in this world  without a living God?

Without a Living God, there would be no reason to repent.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Act 2:38  And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That seems to me to be addressed to every individual that had assembled there.

2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words...

[Jaime]

It was a message to all the INDIVIDUALS in Jerusalem and all of Judea. A message he was expecting individuals to respond to. About 3000 individuals DID! How many didn't on that crowded Feat day?

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Repentance is absolutely about individuals.  Only the individual can repent.  The group cannot repent for the individual.

Repent: μετανοέω G3340
From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539)

μετά means 'with'
νοέω means 'mind'

So... to change one's mind to be in agreement with...

[Jaime]

To change one's mind to repent and be like others that have repented is not the group repenting. It is the individual repenting. No arguement disputing that he/she is among many who have repented. It is still an individual phenomenon.

When I accepted Christ, it was not because of the many that had done so before, it was all about MY individual personal need for a savior.  I would think that is the case for every heart that experiences Godly sorrow that leads to repentance.

[4WD]

Repent: μετανοέω G3340
From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539)

μετά means 'with'
νοέω means 'mind'

So... to change one's mind to be in agreement with...

Yes.....to change one's mind.

[DaveW]

Repent: μετανοέω G3340
From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539)

μετά means 'with'
νοέω means 'mind'

So... to change one's mind to be in agreement with...

But that is only PART of the issue.   The first part is teshuva - Root word shuv (H7725) which means to turn around and go back.

Just a change of mind is inadequate.  It must have an accompanying change of action.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

It was a message to all the INDIVIDUALS in Jerusalem and all of Judea. A message he was expecting individuals to respond to. About 3000 individuals DID!

Yes, and they were then added to the group that is predestined for salvation.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

But that is only PART of the issue.   The first part is teshuva - Root word shuv (H7725) which means to turn around and go back.

Just a change of mind is inadequate.  It must have an accompanying change of action.

Are you comparing usage in the Septuagint vs the Hebrew?  Not sure how the Hebrew came into this?  We're in Acts 2.

[garee]

Without a Living God, there would be no reason to repent.

Without our living God needed to turn those dead in their trespass and sin without hope and  no ressurection power coming from  the dying flesh and blood 

The law of faith  "Be turned or moved. . . and they were turned as a result. After Christ turn them the then empowered can move.   

Why ignore the law of repentance. Two turnings . with by Christ's faithful nes turns us to hear him having heard the living word or having been turned .In return we can complete the will of the Holy Father


Jeremiah 31:18I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock (un redeemed) unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Again we have the power of Christ needed to turn us but we would never say it is of those dead in the trespass and sin .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we(dead in tresspass and sin)  have this treasure in earthen vessels,(dying)  that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If that the case---- if dying mankind is looking for self approval "Look at me I did it) Why not just say I read my Bible as evidence of being turned ? .