The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29

[Dave...]

"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

I copied this out of a book that I once owned called "The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined, Defended and documented" about twenty years ago. You'll still find it floating around the internet on some forums. I wanted to confront that interpretation that I once defended.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0875528279?tag=thethreshold-20

To my surprise, I found it on moergism.com. Perhaps they copied my copy, as it still has some of the same mistakes.

Some of the points made in that article I'll be discussing and using for proof of my position. You can read it here if you like.

The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29

This is from the Appendix of the book "The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, Documented" by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas.

https://www.monergism.com/meaning-foreknew-romans-829

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Quote from the book mentioned above.

God has always possessed perfect knowledge of all creatures and of all events. There has never been a time when anything past, present, or future was not fully known to Him.* But it is not His knowledge of future events (of what people would do, etc.) which is referred to in Romans 8:29,30, for Paul clearly states that those whom He foreknew He predestined, He called, He justified, etc. Since all men are not predestined, called, and justified, it follows that all men were not foreknown by God in the sense spoken of in verse 29.

It is for this reason that the Arminians are forced to add some qualifying notion. They read into the passage some idea not contained in the language itself such as those whom He foreknew would believe etc., He predestined, called and justified. But according to the Biblical usage of the words "know," "knew," and "foreknew" there is not the least need to make such an addition, and since it is unnecessary, it is improper. When the Bible speaks of God knowing particular individuals, it often means that He has special regard for them, that they are the objects of His affection and concern. For example in Amos 3:2, God, speaking to Israel says, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." The Lord knows about all the families of the earth, but He knew Israel in a special way.* They were His chosen people whom He had set His heart upon. See Deuteronomy 7:7,8; 10:15. Because Israel was His in a special sense He chastised them, cf. Hebrews 12:5,6.*God, speaking to Jeremiah, said, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you," (Jeremiah 1:5). The meaning here is not that God knew about Jeremiah but that He had a special regard for the prophet before He formed him in his mother's womb. Jesus also used the word "knew" in the sense of personal, intimate awareness. "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers' " (Matt. 7:22,23). Our Lord cannot be understood here as saying, I knew nothing about you, for it is quite evident that He knew all too much about them – their evil character and evil works; hence, His meaning must be, I never knew you intimately nor personally, I never regarded you as the objects of my favor or love. Paul uses the word in the same way in I Corinthians 8:3, "But if one loves God, one is known by him," and also II Timothy 2:19, "the Lord knows those who are His." The Lord knows about all men but He only knows those "who love Him, who are called according to His purpose" (Rom 8:28) – those who are His! ...

I would add that Calvinism is also adding a qualifying notion. That being, Whom He foreknew [from the foundations of the world]. That simply is assumed into the text. If that was what was meant, it would be easy to just say it, as Peter did in 1 Peter 1:20

1 Peter 1:2 He indeed was foreordained [foreknew] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (Also see 1 Peter 1:2)

(ESV) "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you"

The same Greek word for "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 and "foreknew" in Romans 8:29. Also see John 17:24.

John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

So foreknown [from the foundations of the world] "Foundations of the world" is assumed by the Calvinist interpretation. It sounds reasonable, right? There is predestination right after that.

Let me offer some context that Calvinism doesn't use because their understanding of Scripture limits that context. In Romans 8:28-28, Paul is speaking of true OT believers. That's the flow of the whole book in context, and the more immediate context is the same. They were foreknown as believers already, and were given to the Son by the Father, so that He would not lose one of them, thus predestined to be what? Conformed to the the image of His Son. These were already appointed to eternal life as true OT believers, and were thus foreknown by God, but would need to make the transition to the Gospel message as believers. These He also called (with the Gospel), His Sheep will hear His voice. Those He called, He also justified [in Christ, Pentecost and beyond] also see Romans 3:25. And those He justified, He glorified.

It's actually fits perfectly. If you think that sounds wrong, consider that Paul tells us who is foreknown in Romans 11:2.

Romans 11:1-5 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

It's Israel. That's the same point that the five points of Calvinism was making, they just didn't examine that Scripture with the entire context, since most Calvinists believe that there is no transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament. That there is no difference in the way God deals with people from one to the other. That OT believers were saved and already had all the benefits of being in Christ. I disagree with that. Listen to the argument made in that article, it actually supports what I'm saying.

This Gospel that these Jews were hearing was completely different from what they expected and understood. Paul is explaining the Law verses grace. How physical Israel is different from Spiritual Israel. How God chastising the Jews and including the Gentiles was part of His eternal plan. How those Jews who God had chastised could still be a part of that plan of salvation. It's a covenant by faith, not of the Law. Peter makes the same kind of Argument to similar minded Jews of that time who were also ignorant as to what was happening in Acts1-2.

Acts 2:22-23 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know-- Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

To use the same argument as the article, I think its not part of the Text, and therefore not necessary to add [from the foundations of the world] to the meaning of the word foreknew in Romans 8:29. I understand why that idea was assumed into the term 'foreknew' in Romans 8:29 from the Calvinist framework, but I believe that framework lacks the proper context. As the writer points out, God is speaking of a particular people who He foreloved. That's Israel. And they, the true believers, spiritual Israel, were predestined to take the next step in that transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament and come to faith in Jesus Christ, thus placing them in Christ, [after Pentecost] and as a result, being justified in Him and being conformed to His image.

[Dave...]

We always assume that predestination must be from spiritual death to spiritual life, as in unbeliever to believer. It can easily also be used in the smaller context. God predestines lots of things. True OT believers were still in Adam and not yet alive in Christ. They had the Promises as a result of their faith, and died having not received them, thus the predestination. From the spiritual side of things, they were predestined from Adam with (OT) faith to Christ with (NT) faith, since they were already appointed to eternal life from their OT faith. All that the Father gives me I shall not lose one of them, except Judas. Keep in mind, the passage specifically says that they were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. That can be taken as meaning from unbeliever to believer, as it is traditionally understood, but also can be understood in the smaller context as from OT believer to Christ believer.

As was pointed out in the link, Romans 8:29 is clearly speaking of a specific people. I believe these people were Israel. There were promises made to both spiritual and physical Israel. But the spiritual Israel everyone is saved. Perhaps this would distinguish Romans 8:29 from Romans 11:2. We'll see.

Do you see what I mean? God could have foreknown them already because of their OT faith. They still were not conformed, or begun to be conformed to Christlikeness if they had not yet trusted in the Gospel message and became 'in Christ'. That's when they begin to be conformed to Christlikeness by the Spirit indwelling. The process of being perfected (Gal 3:2-3).

Cornelius in Acts 10 was a man known by God before he came to faith in Jesus Christ. You can see God taking that OT faith and as predestined, seeing it through to a NT faith in Jesus Christ. Just like with Lydia. That's what I believe Romans 9 is speaking of. They were already known, by God, but predestined to come to faith in Jesus. All that the Father gives Me, I shall not lose one of them.

God knew them. Yet they were not indwelt (NT), or had the indwelling (the promises) (Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit), nor were they "in Christ" (Romans 8:9-10). Paul said that "we" were the firstfruits of the Spirit (indwelling) (Romans 8:23). Yet God knew them.

[4WD]

So many, perhaps most by far, always begin the discussion of God's foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 by starting with a quote of Romans 8:29.  But that tends to obscure the whole meaning of the passage.  The discussion needs to begin with Romans 8:18 which is a discussion about the future glory of saints and how that all comes about.

It is speaking about what we are hoping for as the future glory. Verse 25 says we hope for what we do not see. It goes on then in verse 28 to speak specifically of that hope by telling us that "all things will work together for good for those who love God"; then it continues in verse 29 to explain exactly how that will come about. Thus God says that all things will work together for good for those who love God for [i.e., because] those whom He foreknew He predestined, etc. Clearly those He foreknew are those who love God.

And here the meaning of foreknew means simply and only that God knew before.  God knew before all creation who would love him.  They, the ones who would love God, are the ones God foreknew, predestined, called, justified and glorified.  All quite straightforward.

[garee]

So many, perhaps most by far, always begin the discussion of God's foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 by starting with a quote of Romans 8:29.  But that tends to obscure the whole meaning of the passage.  The discussion needs to begin with Romans 8:18 which is a discussion about the future glory of saints and how that all comes about.

It is speaking about what we are hoping for as the future glory. Verse 25 says we hope for what we do not see. It goes on then in verse 28 to speak specifically of that hope by telling us that "all things will work together for good for those who love God"; then it continues in verse 29 to explain exactly how that will come about. Thus God says that all things will work together for good for those who love God for [i.e., because] those whom He foreknew He predestined, etc. Clearly those He foreknew are those who love God.

And here the meaning of foreknew means simply and only that God knew before.  God knew before all creation who would love him.  They, the ones who would love God, are the ones God foreknew, predestined, called, justified and glorified.  All quite straightforward.

Yes, Christ the one anointing teaching master (not a man) Christ our Holy Father  is typified as the lamb slain during the foundation the 6 day the Holy Father did work.(Revelation 13:8)

Nothing new under the Sun. Our Holy Father, faithfully working out his unseen "Let there be" Holy will. 

God predestines all things. "Let there be" Calling it--- all things of Christ working together--- according to our Holy Father's faithful powerful will----and "it was God alone good". The Alpha and Omega.


Even the propmised demonstration of the slaying of the lamb---was fulfilled  thousands of years later. The three day and night parable. With two witnesses, By the mouth of one no law can be made. Both saying the same (belly of the whale) or (heart of earth) two different metaphors points to the same unseen substance (Lamb slain from foundation) 


Prophesied in Genesis 3:15 with Isaiah 53 .  The Father as Christ bruising the heel of the son of man Jesus crushing the head of the serpent. 

Three days and nights three different kinds of demonstrations (garden Gethsemane the beginning of the suffering referred to as "heart of the earth" or bely of the whale .the companion parable   Then the hill of skull the bloody demonstration to the world. and the last demonstration of faith hidden in the tomb ---together they  make up the whole three days and nights demonstration of the lamb slain from the foundation .

 Walk or understand the unseen things of Christ's "Let there be" . . . faithfulness signs follow never lead.   

Prophecy --'"the bruising of the heel" the garden demonstration for those who do beleive.

The bloody signs to the world for those to wonder after  in hope leading a person to the one source of Christ's faithfulness (sola scriptura) All three (three demotes the end of a matter in parables) all three  demonstrations pointing to the same foundation Lamb slain 

Satan the iffy god .three times "If you are the son of man, Jesus??? The lying spirit has no spiritual understanding-- not subject to the interpretation of the lovely parables which without Christ spoke not 

God predestines .let there be all things. A....Z

[4WD]

God predestines all things.

That is false.  God does not predestine all things. If fact God predestines very little of what happens in this world.

God does not predestine evil. God does not, generally, predestine anything we do.  He does not, generally, predestine anything that animals do. He does not, generally, predestine any of the events that happen in this world.

He knows everything that happens, past, present and future, but He does not predestine hardly anything at all.  He is very selective about what He predestines.

[Dave...]

So many, perhaps most by far, always begin the discussion of God's foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 by starting with a quote of Romans 8:29.  But that tends to obscure the whole meaning of the passage.  The discussion needs to begin with Romans 8:18 which is a discussion about the future glory of saints and how that all comes about.

It is speaking about what we are hoping for as the future glory. Verse 25 says we hope for what we do not see. It goes on then in verse 28 to speak specifically of that hope by telling us that "all things will work together for good for those who love God"; then it continues in verse 29 to explain exactly how that will come about. Thus God says that all things will work together for good for those who love God for [i.e., because] those whom He foreknew He predestined, etc. Clearly those He foreknew are those who love God.

And here the meaning of foreknew means simply and only that God knew before.  God knew before all creation who would love him.  They, the ones who would love God, are the ones God foreknew, predestined, called, justified and glorified.  All quite straightforward.

Hey 4wd

But it says "Whom He foreknew", not what.

John 14:6-7 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

He *knew them*, from the moment they believed ("from now on" , not from the foundations of the world, like He knew Jesus) before Pentecost, before they were indwelt with the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) Before the Promise of the Father was given (Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4) - Pentecost), before they were in Christ and born again (Ephesians 1:13-14, 1 Peter 1:3). OT believers were not even yet justified, except by promise (Romans 3:25). But He knew them.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew , He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called (John 10:27-28); whom He called, these He also justified (Romans 3:25); and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


That He might be the firstborn among many brethren . Which means, Jesus had to die and be raised, and ascend first before anyone could be born again.

Col.1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church (birthed at Pentecost), who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

John 3:13-15 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

He knew Jesus from the foundations of the world. Jesus is elect. We become elect when we are placed into Him.

1 Peter 3:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

He knows us when we believe. OT believers were already were appointed to eternal life, but would only begin to be conformed to Christlikeness beginning at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit [indwelling] was given. Thus they were predestined to this (Romans 8:29)

[4WD]

Hey 4wd

But it says "Whom He foreknew", not what.

You think having foreknown those who loved him is a what?  That is really weird.

[garee]

You think having foreknown those who loved him is a what?  That is really weird.

I would offer. As it is written the authority of God's word called sola scriptura .

Christ the "keeper of the books" (two written on both sides with no room for the oral traditons of dying mankind.

Our invisible God as Father foreknew his "Let there be" creation.(Law of faith the unseen things of Christ)

Exodus 32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.


I would think. .His creation did not foreknew Him before they made a loving decision to follow .

It would seem Christ as Emanuel works with us in help making a decision to keep following his living word as it is written (sola scriptura)  The believer defense

From the foundation the 6 days the Holy Father did work, he is the lamb slain Demonstrated thousands of year later fulfilling the "Let there be" prophecy. The three day and night promised demonstration called belly of whale or heart of earth . . the sufferings of Christ beforehand and the glory of the cross that followed

The loving law of two.  At the witness of one no judgment can be made . Two the unseen Holy Father working "Let there be" in and with the dying mankind Jesus ,

Two the one witness God not seen has spoke---- witnessed by the things seen dying creation.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.(6 days)

Revelation 3:5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Two books . One book all who would be given breath of temporal life - - the other those who have a new born again spirit. Both books in agreement with each other. Those blotted out like they were never born the first time .Mankind must be born again from above

You could say like the old and new one testament the two tables of the Holy Father's Faithfull "let there be" and  "it was His good labor of His Love".


 

 

[4WD]

garee,

Why do you continue to quote me and then say nothing whatsoever having to do with what I posted?

[Dave...]

You think having foreknown those who loved him is a what?  That is really weird.

Whom He foreknew. Bible version.

Whom He foreknew [would believe]. 4wd version. [added by 4wd]

See the quote in the OP.

[4WD]

The Greek hoti that begins verse 29 and translated as "for" has the meaning of a causal because and refers back to what has just been said in verse 28.

And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God  [for those who are called according to his purpose] because those whom he foreknew......

[Dave...]

You think having foreknown those who loved him is a what?  That is really weird.

You answered yourself for me. Thankyou.

[Dave...]

The Greek hoti that begins verse 29 and translated as "for" has the meaning of a causal because and refers back to what has just been said in verse 28.

And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God  [for those who are called according to his purpose] because those whom he foreknew......

Whom Hew foreknew. Think about it. People, He foreknew. Not people He foreknew would...It's not rocket surgery. 

1 Peter 1:20  He [Jesus] indeed was foreordained (foreknown, same word) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

That's from the foundations of the world. In other words, from an eternal decree. It's easy to say if that's what one means. Do you know "whom God knew" that's not qualified with 'from the foundations of the world'?

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew (OT believers, the sheep), He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Pentecost, indwelling, baptism with the Holy Spirit), that He [Jesus] might be the firstborn among many brethren [who will be born again].

[garee]

Whom Hew foreknew. Think about it. People, He foreknew. Not people He foreknew would...It's not rocket surgery. 

1 Peter 1:20  He [Jesus] indeed was foreordained (foreknown, same word) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

That's from the foundations of the world. In other words, from an eternal decree. It's easy to say if that's what one means. Do you know "whom God knew" that's not qualified with 'from the foundations of the world'?

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew (OT believers, the sheep), He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Pentecost, indwelling, baptism with the Holy Spirit), that He [Jesus] might be the firstborn among many brethren [who will be born again].

It would seem you are placing the cart before the horse. The and "it was good" before the work of faith "let there be "

The foundation provided the degree "Let there be "

Yes not rocket surgery but is parable surgery rightly dividing the parables mixing the things seen the temporal historical with the unseen eternal things of "let there be" faith 

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Roman 3:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, (dying flesh of mankind. Jesus the son of man ) from your vain conversation received by (oral)tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood (used to represent the unseen Holy Spirit of Christ), as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained (not applied "let there be" ) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest (demonstrated as a shadow) in these last times for you,
 
No mixing of the two, the temporal historical ---with the unseen faithful eternal, then no gospel rest Hebrew 4:1-2   The mystery of faith stays hidden in the parable

Hebrews 4 King James Version Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

[4WD]

Whom Hew foreknew. Think about it. People, He foreknew. Not people He foreknew would...It's not rocket surgery. 

No, it is not rocket surgery, whatever rocket surgery might be.

[4WD]

1 Peter 1:20  He [Jesus] indeed was foreordained (foreknown, same word) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Oh my oh my oh my.

One more place where the KJV has it all screwed up.

1 Peter 1:20

(ASV)  who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

(ESV)  He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

(NASB)  For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Foreknown from the Greek word προγινώσκω [proginōskō] meaning to know before hand.

(KJV)  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Foreordained from the Greek word προδιατάσσω [prodiatassō] meaning to prearrange, preordain.  The problem is that is not the Greek word found in 1 Peter 2:20. The KJV has mistranslated from the Greek.

Know and ordain are two different words in Greek and in English.  So also foreknow and foreordain are two separate and entirely different words with entirely different meanings.  God foreknows absolutely everything but has ordained or foreordain very little.  God knows and foreknows every sin that you have committed or will ever commit.  He has foreordained not a single one of those sins.

I didn't know you were a Determinist. I certainly hope that is not the case.

[garee]

Oh my oh my oh my.

One more place where the KJV has it all screwed up.

1 Peter 1:20

(ASV)  who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

(ESV)  He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

(NASB)  For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Foreknown from the Greek word προγινώσκω [proginōskō] meaning to know before hand.

(KJV)  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Foreordained from the Greek word προδιατάσσω [prodiatassō] meaning to prearrange, preordain.  The problem is that is not the Greek word found in 1 Peter 2:20. The KJV has mistranslated from the Greek.

Know and ordain are two different words in Greek and in English.  So also foreknow and foreordain are two separate and entirely different words with entirely different meanings.  God foreknows absolutely everything but has ordained or foreordain very little.  God knows and foreknows every sin that you have committed or will ever commit.  He has foreordained not a single one of those sins.

I didn't know you were a Determinist. I certainly hope that is not the case.

I think the "let there be God" is a determinist or at least I would hope when he determined to "let there be light" there was not darkness.

Foreordained  little?

How much of "let there be"? becomes and "it was a little foreordained as good ?

Foreordain  sin ?

"let there be sin and it was foreordained ??