Unresolvable Contradictions from a literal Rich Man and Lazarus

[Hobie]

This is a excellent analysis of the problem if it was literal of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from attempts to make the passage literal:

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?
The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but "his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type "interim body" for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are pure fiction and warrant no consideration whatsoever.

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?
Lazarus was carried "into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim "Abraham's Bosom" is a literal, actual name for "heaven" or "paradise" need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom" - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

3. LYING EYES?
The Rich Man is able to see "Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom" aka "place of comfort" aka "the kingdom" - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to "depart". Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed "holding chamber" next door to hell called "paradise" (now that we've seen "Abraham's Bosom" is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that "paradise" is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

5. THE DEAD DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING
(Psalms 6:5 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Psalms 88:12 KJV)

These dead guys are sure able to remember a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to remember anything.

6. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS
(Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV; Proverbs 10:28 KJV)

These dead guys do a great job of demonstrating loving concern and also condescending disdain for people who aren't supposed to be able to have emotions.

7. THE DEAD DON'T PERFORM WORK
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; John 9:4 KJV)

The dead Rich Man mustn't have gotten the memo that Lazarus had finished his shift and clocked out - permanently.

8. THE DEAD DON'T DEVISE ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man was well able to devise a plan to warn his brothers for someone unable to do so.

9. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE WISDOM
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; Proverbs 2:6 KJV)

Dead Abraham was well able give wise testimony about the convicting power of the Word of God for someone unable to do so.

10. THE DEAD DON'T PRAISE GOD
(Isaiah 38:18 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalms 88:11 KJV)

Dead Abraham sure spoke highly of God's Word for someone unable to do so.

11. THE DEAD ARE IN DARKNESS
(Psalms 88:12 KJV; Job 10:21-22 KJV)

These dead guys must all have been wearing night vision goggles to see through all that darkness.

12. THE DEAD ARE IN SILENCE
(Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalm 31:17 KJV)

These dead guys were loud enough to wake the rest of the dead what with all that shouting back and forth at each other across that great gulf.

13. THE DEAD ARE ASLEEP
(Psalms 13:3 KJV; Ephesians 5:14 KJV; John 11:11-14 KJV)

These dead guys are fully awake and aware of their surroundings, especially the thirsty guy whose completely engulfed in flames of torment.

14. THE DEAD ARE RESERVED FOR FUTURE TORMENT
(2 Peter 2:9 KJV; Revelation 20:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's "reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished".

[garee]

This is a excellent analysis of the problem if it was literal of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from attempts to make the passage literal:

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?
The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but "his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type "interim body" for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are pure fiction and warrant no consideration whatsoever.

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?
Lazarus was carried "into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim "Abraham's Bosom" is a literal, actual name for "heaven" or "paradise" need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom" - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

3. LYING EYES?
The Rich Man is able to see "Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom" aka "place of comfort" aka "the kingdom" - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to "depart". Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed "holding chamber" next door to hell called "paradise" (now that we've seen "Abraham's Bosom" is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that "paradise" is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

5. THE DEAD DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING
(Psalms 6:5 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Psalms 88:12 KJV)

These dead guys are sure able to remember a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to remember anything.

6. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS
(Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV; Proverbs 10:28 KJV)

These dead guys do a great job of demonstrating loving concern and also condescending disdain for people who aren't supposed to be able to have emotions.

7. THE DEAD DON'T PERFORM WORK
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; John 9:4 KJV)

The dead Rich Man mustn't have gotten the memo that Lazarus had finished his shift and clocked out - permanently.

8. THE DEAD DON'T DEVISE ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man was well able to devise a plan to warn his brothers for someone unable to do so.

9. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE WISDOM
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; Proverbs 2:6 KJV)

Dead Abraham was well able give wise testimony about the convicting power of the Word of God for someone unable to do so.

10. THE DEAD DON'T PRAISE GOD
(Isaiah 38:18 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalms 88:11 KJV)

Dead Abraham sure spoke highly of God's Word for someone unable to do so.

11. THE DEAD ARE IN DARKNESS
(Psalms 88:12 KJV; Job 10:21-22 KJV)

These dead guys must all have been wearing night vision goggles to see through all that darkness.

12. THE DEAD ARE IN SILENCE
(Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalm 31:17 KJV)

These dead guys were loud enough to wake the rest of the dead what with all that shouting back and forth at each other across that great gulf.

13. THE DEAD ARE ASLEEP
(Psalms 13:3 KJV; Ephesians 5:14 KJV; John 11:11-14 KJV)

These dead guys are fully awake and aware of their surroundings, especially the thirsty guy whose completely engulfed in flames of torment.

14. THE DEAD ARE RESERVED FOR FUTURE TORMENT
(2 Peter 2:9 KJV; Revelation 20:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's "reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished".

The Parable: No Man Can Serve Two Teaching Masters

Amen. Without parables—signified prophecy—Christ our teaching Master spoke not.

"Without a parable spake he not unto them." — Matthew 13:34

Luke 16 gives us a whole series that protects the integrity of Sola Scriptura. The lesson begins with the principle that no servant can submit himself to two competing masters:

"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." — Luke 16:13

I understand that principle spiritually as well: no man can serve two good divine teaching Masters.

There is one Lord and therefore one source of divine truth. Dying mankind can be messengers, apostles, pastors and teachers, but they cannot become a second infallible source of revelation alongside God.

Then Christ immediately directs attention to the Law and the Prophets:

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached." — Luke 16:16

And notice the very next verse:

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." — Luke 16:17

The integrity of God's written testimony is protected. Not one tittle is permitted to fail.

Then, within the same chapter, Christ gives us the rich man and Lazarus. What authority does Abraham direct the man toward?

Not another vision.
Not communication with the dead.
Not a new oral tradition.
Not another teaching master.

He says:

"They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." — Luke 16:29

Hear them.

Moses represents the Law, joined with the Prophets as God's written testimony. Elsewhere Scripture can use Moses and Elias in a similar representative way—Moses associated with the Law and Elias with the prophets.

And Christ finishes the parable with an astonishing statement:

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." — Luke 16:31

There is the protection of Sola Scriptura.

A man rising from the dead would be an incredible sign and wonder. Yet Christ does not tell us to place the sign above the written testimony.

If they will not hear Moses and the Prophets, even a resurrection will not persuade them.

That fits the larger principle:

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." — Isaiah 8:20

And after His resurrection, Jesus again used the same pattern:

"Beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." — Luke 24:27

So the witnesses agree:

Moses and the Prophets.
The Law and the Testimony.
All the Scriptures.

Different expressions, but the same principle: hear what God has written.

No servant can serve two divine teaching masters.

The messenger does not become the Author.
The apostle does not become a second source of revelation.
The sign does not overrule Scripture.
The traditions of dying mankind cannot be added to God's written testimony.

"They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

And if we will not hear God's written Word, Christ warns that even someone rising from the dead will not persuade us.

That is a powerful guardrail for Sola Scriptura.

[Rella]

This is a excellent analysis of the problem if it was literal of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from attempts to make the passage literal:

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?
The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but "his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type "interim body" for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are pure fiction and warrant no consideration whatsoever.

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?
Lazarus was carried "into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim "Abraham's Bosom" is a literal, actual name for "heaven" or "paradise" need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom" - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

3. LYING EYES?
The Rich Man is able to see "Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom" aka "place of comfort" aka "the kingdom" - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to "depart". Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed "holding chamber" next door to hell called "paradise" (now that we've seen "Abraham's Bosom" is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that "paradise" is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

5. THE DEAD DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING
(Psalms 6:5 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Psalms 88:12 KJV)

These dead guys are sure able to remember a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to remember anything.

6. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS
(Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV; Proverbs 10:28 KJV)

These dead guys do a great job of demonstrating loving concern and also condescending disdain for people who aren't supposed to be able to have emotions.

7. THE DEAD DON'T PERFORM WORK
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; John 9:4 KJV)

The dead Rich Man mustn't have gotten the memo that Lazarus had finished his shift and clocked out - permanently.

8. THE DEAD DON'T DEVISE ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man was well able to devise a plan to warn his brothers for someone unable to do so.

9. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE WISDOM
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; Proverbs 2:6 KJV)

Dead Abraham was well able give wise testimony about the convicting power of the Word of God for someone unable to do so.

10. THE DEAD DON'T PRAISE GOD
(Isaiah 38:18 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalms 88:11 KJV)

Dead Abraham sure spoke highly of God's Word for someone unable to do so.

11. THE DEAD ARE IN DARKNESS
(Psalms 88:12 KJV; Job 10:21-22 KJV)

These dead guys must all have been wearing night vision goggles to see through all that darkness.

12. THE DEAD ARE IN SILENCE
(Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalm 31:17 KJV)

These dead guys were loud enough to wake the rest of the dead what with all that shouting back and forth at each other across that great gulf.

13. THE DEAD ARE ASLEEP
(Psalms 13:3 KJV; Ephesians 5:14 KJV; John 11:11-14 KJV)

These dead guys are fully awake and aware of their surroundings, especially the thirsty guy whose completely engulfed in flames of torment.

14. THE DEAD ARE RESERVED FOR FUTURE TORMENT
(2 Peter 2:9 KJV; Revelation 20:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's "reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished".

Morning Hobie,

"What in the text requires us to understand this as a parable?"

[Cally]

It's a long post that probably deserves more attention than I have time to get it, but I have one comment for now.

The descriptions in that parable can also be understood for what happens to the soul metaphorically. The event may well have actually happened regarding the soul, not the physical body, but the only way to articulate what the experience is actually like is through that sort of fleshly symbolism.

[4WD]

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's "reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished".

The presentation of the Rich Man and Lazarus is metaphorically a presentation of the intermediate state between physical death and the final destination that will be assigned on Jesus return. Clearly, those in that state are aware of their status before God.  The final destination has been established in life so in the intermediate state, the Rich Man knew then that he would be destined to spend eternity in hell. What could be worse for the Rich Man than knowing that because of his life on earth, brief as it was in comparison to eternity, he would spend eternity separated from God and all God's blessings to those who had received and believed in Jesus. Flames of torment would be a good metaphorical description.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment

I don't see any particular reason why it must be a parable.

The cosmology we see in the story accords perfectly with that of 1Enoch.  Why shouldn't I think that it's simply building from that text?

By the way, 1Enoch's afterlife doesn't consign everyone to either eternal blessedness or eternal torment.  It has an in-between category where many people simply cease to exist (annihilation).

[Amo]

Jhn 3:14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

1Co 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Pe 2:9  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10  But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11  Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12  But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

It is a hard thing, to utterly perish, and yet feel and or be conscious of punishment throughout eternity. Or to work out how the wicked whom Holy Scripture declares shall utterly perish and be no more, shall at the same time be aware and feel punishment forever. But when Holy Scripture declares that the dead no longer even have thoughts, surely then such is impossible. Is it not?

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6  Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7  Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8  Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9  Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10  Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Will not the thoughts of those who utterly perish, perish along with them?

Psa 146:1  Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. 2  While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3  Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Apparently so.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6  Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7  Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8  Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9  Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10  Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecclesiastes... the whole context of the book is 'here are examples of worldly wisdom, which fails.'  There's very little there that should be taken as 'God said this.'