When was Abraham justified

[Dave...]

When was Abraham literally justified before God.

Reply in a post to explain, if you like.

Thanks

[Dave...]

My thinking in this matter.

Abraham couldn't be justified from the foundations of the world, because there was nothing to justify Him yet.

He was credited with righteousness, but credit is not imputed. It's credited to be imputed. God could justly "pass over" the sins of Old Testament believers because He knew the ultimate payment was coming (Romans 3:25-26).

When Jesus died on the cross, the means of being justified was available, but one still needed to be in Christ, and only after the death, resurrection and ascension.

That's why I chose the fourth option. It was only after Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, Abraham's bosom, that they could have been made whole "in Christ". They, Abrahams bosom, Paradise, ascended with Jesus and were the first to do so and be with the Father in the third heaven.

[4WD]

My thinking in this matter.


Abraham couldn't be justified from the foundations of the world, because there was nothing to justify Him yet.

Abraham was justifed when he believed.

He was credited with righteousness, but credit is not imputed.

To be credited with righteousness is to be justified.  Yes credited with righteousness is imputed with righteousness.

It's credited to be imputed. God could justly "pass over" the sins of Old Testament believers because He knew the ultimate payment was coming (Romans 3:25-26).

What it means that God passed over former sins simply means that He forgave the sins even it the animal sacrifices had to be repeated over and over again.  What yet needed to be accomplished on the cross was the payment of debt for the sins committed, even though they had been forgiven.

When Jesus died on the cross, the means of being justified was available, but one still needed to be in Christ, and only after the death, resurrection and ascension.

When Jesus died on the cross, the debt owed for the sins committed both before and after the cross was paid.

That's why I chose the fourth option. It was only after Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, Abraham's bosom, that they could have been made whole "in Christ". They, Abrahams bosom, Paradise, ascended with Jesus and were the first to do so and be with the Father in the third heaven.

All that die before Christ returns exist in an interim state, referred to in scripture as Paradise for the righteous dead and Hades in the NT or Sheol in the OT which is the place into which the souls of the unrighteous dead enter when they die.

Where are Paradise and Sheol/Hades located? Paradise, as the place where the souls of the righteous dead exist in their intermediate state, is equivalent to or at least adjacent to the heavenly throne room district of the invisible universe created for the angelic race. This conclusion is based on two facts. First, John saw the souls of at least some of the righteous dead under the altar of this heaven (Revelation 6:9). Second, when we die our souls will be in the presence of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23), and Christ himself in his glorified human existence is presently in this heavenly throne room (Acts 7:55; Revelation 3:21; 5:6, 13). When we die, our souls will awaken in conscious bliss in that blessed place.

But where is Sheol/Hades, the place into which the souls of the wicked are ushered at death? We can only speculate about this. But based on the above, I infer that this too is a part of the invisible universe, a distant or nether region far from the presence of God and the glorified Christ, perhaps adjacent to the place called Tartarus occupied by some fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4). It is a place of darkness (Job 17:13), gloom and suffering, without light and without hope. It is the place where lost human beings await the final judgment and their eternal consignment to hell.

Heaven and Hell is the destiny of the righteous and unrighteous respectively once Jesus has returned at the end of the age and all have appeared before the Judgment Seat of Christ Jesus to be rewarded for the things done in the body (Rom 14:10; 2Cor 5:10).

[Dave...]

Abraham was justified when he believed.

One can only be justified in Christ. One can only be in Christ with the indwelling. Promises do not cleanse Temples, only blood does.

To be credited with righteousness is to be justified.  Yes credited with righteousness is imputed with righteousness.

To cover ones sins is not the same as to atone for them. Abraham died having not received the promise.

Hebrews 11:These all (including Abraham)died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

This is the prophet Abraham foreseeing the promised Messiah, the Redeemer, the Lamb of God, and the cross, and all that goes with it.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

Hebrews 11:29-40 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect (justified) apart from us. "(Justified)" added by me.

What it means that God passed over former sins simply means that He forgave the sins even it the animal sacrifices had to be repeated over and over again.  What yet needed to be accomplished on the cross was the payment of debt for the sins committed, even though they had been forgiven.
When Jesus died on the cross, the debt owed for the sins committed both before and after the cross was paid.

Blood cleanses Temples, not promises.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

All that die before Christ returns exist in an interim state, referred to in scripture as Paradise for the righteous dead and Hades in the NT or Sheol in the OT which is the place into which the souls of the unrighteous dead enter when they die.

The righteous have ascended with Jesus when He ascended.

Where are Paradise and Sheol/Hades located? Paradise, as the place where the souls of the righteous dead exist in their intermediate state, is equivalent to or at least adjacent to the heavenly throne room district of the invisible universe created for the angelic race. This conclusion is based on two facts. First, John saw the souls of at least some of the righteous dead under the altar of this heaven (Revelation 6:9). Second, when we die our souls will be in the presence of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23), and Christ himself in his glorified human existence is presently in this heavenly throne room (Acts 7:55; Revelation 3:21; 5:6, 13). When we die, our souls will awaken in conscious bliss in that blessed place.

You're confusing two different contexts. The OT and the NT. Jesus said, "today you will be with me in Paradise" to the thief on the cross. We know from Scripture, that Jesus descended to Hades, that's the testimony of Acts that the Jews thought was Scripture about David, but it was about Jesus. Paradise was moved to the third heaven based on Testimony from Paul, who said that he knew a man Speaking of himself)--2 Corinthians 12:2-4. Therefore we know that Paradise, Abrahams bosom was moved into the third heaven between Jesus descending and Paul making that statement.

in the NT, when we die we're in the presence of God. Not in the OT John 3:13-14.

But where is Sheol/Hades, the place into which the souls of the wicked are ushered at death? We can only speculate about this. But based on the above, I infer that this too is a part of the invisible universe, a distant or nether region far from the presence of God and the glorified Christ, perhaps adjacent to the place called Tartarus occupied by some fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4). It is a place of darkness (Job 17:13), gloom and suffering, without light and without hope. It is the place where lost human beings await the final judgment and their eternal consignment to hell.

Heaven and Hell is the destiny of the righteous and unrighteous respectively once Jesus has returned at the end of the age and all have appeared before the Judgment Seat of Christ Jesus to be rewarded for the things done in the body (Rom 14:10; 2Cor 5:10).

Unbelievers are still kept in Hades until the great white throne judgment.

[4WD]

One can only be justified in Christ.

It seems that you do not know and understand what it means to be justified.  Of course Abraham was justified. And with that, everything you posted following that statement clearly is a screwed up with your confusion.

Also, Sheol/Hades is not the same as hell. Paradise is not the same as heaven.  It would seem that you reject the teaching of the intermediate state we all enter when we die which precedes the final abode of heaven and hell.

[Dave...]

It seems that you do not know and understand what it means to be justified.  Of course Abraham was justified. And with that, everything you posted following that statement clearly is a screwed up with your confusion.

If Abraham was justified, why did God need to pass over his sin? His sin would have been atoned already. He was credited to receive it once it happened, but that's not the same as him being literally imputed with the righteousness of God and sin atoned, thus justified. To be imputed with Christ's righteousness and have our sin atoned, three things needed to happen. 1) It actually had to happen. Promises do not cleanse Temples, blood does. 2) We need to be 'in Christ' to be imputed with His righteousness, sin atoned, and born again. 3) The Holy Spirit must be given as the means of that spiritual immersion, called the baptism of with/by the Holy Spirit, which allows us to have all those saving ingredients.

We know that Abraham was not literally justified until after the cross because the writer of Hebrews makes this clear when he says that Abraham was not perfected (justified) apart from them. These are 1st century Christians. In case you think that perfected means matured, see Hebrews 10:14. 

Hebrews 11:38-39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected (justified) forever those who are being sanctified.

Also, In John 3:1-16, it says that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven (John 3:5). That meaning is qualified by (John 3:6). That nobody ascended yet because Jesus was not yet lifted up/glorified [so they could be born again with the indwelling Holy Spirit]. (John 3:13-14).

Here's the abbreviated version that says the exact same thing.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water (Born again)." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

That's why Nicodemus didn't understand, because he wasn't yet born again (John 16:12-16, 1 Corinthians 2:14). That's' why nobody had yet ascended.

Also, Sheol/Hades is not the same as hell. Paradise is not the same as heaven.  It would seem that you reject the teaching of the intermediate state we all enter when we die which precedes the final abode of heaven and hell.

Most or the early reformed believers identified hell exactly as we see Hades today. They see them as the same. That's why the NKJ translated Hades to hell more than a few times. The NKJV fixed that.

Hades is a holding cell. I'll use someone else's explanation.

QUOTE:

"While Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments. One was a place of torment while the other was a place of blessing, which was referred to as Abraham's Bosom (Lk. 16:22-25). As we mentioned before, Tartarus may be a specific place in Sheol/Hades.

We know that Jesus Christ went "into the lower parts of the earth" (Eph. 4:9), that is to Sheol/Hades, "in the heart of the earth," for three days and nights while his body was in the grave (Mat. 12:40). The Lord Jesus told the repentant thief that he would join Him in Paradise that same day (Lk. 23:42,43). This tells us that Paradise was located in Sheol/Hades at that time. We believe that this was the same place referred to as Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16. However, after Jesus Christ rose from the dead He ascended to the Father, taking the saints who were in Abraham's Bosom to heaven with Him. Thus, He took "captivity captive" (see Eph. 4:8-10).

That Paradise was moved to heaven is confirmed to us by the Apostle Paul who speaks of a man who was "caught up into Paradise" where he "heard unspeakable words" (II Cor. 12:3,4). With Jesus Christ's work complete, the believers who had been confined to Sheol/Hades were now taken to Heaven to wait in God's presence until the time of their resurrection to enter His Kingdom on Earth. Since that time, at death all believers go to Paradise in Heaven to await the time of their resurrection. This is true whether they belong to the Kingdom Church of the future or the Body of Christ Church of the present Dispensation of Grace."

:END QUOTE

https://bereanbiblesociety.org/hell-sheol-hades-paradise-and-the-grave/

This passage is about Jesus. OT used Sheol. NT uses Hades. Same place.

Psalm 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27-28 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." ' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Therefore we know that Paradise was in Hades. What did He do in there? Peached to the spirits, I believe on both sides, one side the unbelievers (1 Peter 3:18-21), and the believers side, Paradise. He takes Paradise with Him to the third heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ (Paul speaking of himself) who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Even the disciples had to wait for the DRA. listen to Jesus' Words just before the cross. It's extremely relevant. He's telling Peter that he cannot be in heaven right now, that only after the cross can be there.

John 13:36-38, *** John 14:1-6 "Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered him, "Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward." Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake." Jesus answered him, "Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times. *** "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know." Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way? "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

[Dave...]

Luke 16:19-31 This is Hades before the cross. Before those true OT believers in Paradise were taken to the third Heaven when Jesus ascended. 

"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

[4WD]

Luke 16:19-31 This is Hades before the cross. Before those true OT believers in Paradise were taken to the third Heaven when Jesus ascended. 

"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Whatever.

[Dave...]

Whatever.

lol    I didn't mean to flood you. Sorry. I just felt compelled to post the relevant Scripture. And it just kept coming.

If you remember anything, remember that those Hebrews were OT believers who knew the Tora, and the OT. They knew the Law. And they were facing persecution as Christians believing on Jesus and the Gospel. They didn't hear from Jesus first hand, but from the Apostles or second hand, they heard and believed. This is relevant because when that happened, they were justified roughly thirty years after the cross. The claim that the heroes of faith were made perfect at roughly the same time, means that the justification happened after the cross for both, first generation Christians and OT believers already passed on.

Why? Because that justification is dependent on the indwelling Holy Spirit after the cross. The Hebrews, who were already declared righteous by faith, being OT believers, were placed into Christ when they believed the Gospel, and justified.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Galatians 4:4-7 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

[4WD]

Why? Because that justification is dependent on the indwelling Holy Spirit after the cross. The Hebrews, who were already declared righteous by faith, being OT believers, were placed into Christ when they believed the Gospel, and justified.

Justification and the indwelling Holy Spirit are two separate works of God. Justification was available to the believer under the Old Covenant.  The indwelling Holy Spirit is strictly a New Covenant work of God.

Gen 15:6  And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

To have believing in God, having faith in God, counted as righteousness is to be declared righteous. To be declared righteous is to be justified.  To be justified is to be declared righteous.

[Rella]

Good morning Dave,

Please see the PM I just sent to you.

Blessings

[Dave...]

Justification and the indwelling Holy Spirit are two separate works of God. Justification was available to the believer under the Old Covenant.  The indwelling Holy Spirit is strictly a New Covenant work of God.

Gen 15:6  And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

To have believing in God, having faith in God, counted as righteousness is to be declared righteous. To be declared righteous is to be justified.  To be justified is to be declared righteous.

One must be in "the Way, the Truth, and the Life", to be born again and justified. The promises are realized through the Promised Seed, Jesus, and nowhere else but Him. That's why OT believers were predestined to believe the Gospel. The ones not living had to wait for the cross. No salvation outside of Christ Jesus. Not even by promise. It's through Jesus that all the promises are realized; Being born again, the life from the indwelling, being justified, all in Jesus. 

Promises do not cleanse Temples, blood does.

Believers are placed into Jesus Christ by the baptism with the Holy Spirit. For some, it was owed to them by Promise, both dead and alive.

Did you ever call Pentecost the birth of the Church? Why?

That's when the first believers were placed into Christ Jesus. Only "in Christ" is there salvation.

This is what began with the promised Seed at Pentecost.....

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Nobody goes to be with the Father until they are placed into Christ. Nobody was placed into Christ until Pentecost. God passed over their sins until they were actually atoned for on the cross (Romans 3:25-26 which would be a lie if their sin was already atoned). Until Jesus actually said "It is finished" on the cross, the righteousness required for justification did not historically exist in the human realm.

How can somebody have the New Covenant reality before the New Covenant was ushered in with the blood of Christ?

Jesus deliberately misquotes Exodus 24:8, adding "My". Of course, what Moses did only covered sin until justification happened and was available. That's the "covered" in Romans 3:25-26. Which could never take away sin (Hebrews 10:4)

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, "This is the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you according to all these words."

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 
Jesus inserts the word "My" into Moses' statement "this is *My* blood of the *new* covenant". Jesus legally tied the idea of covenant, justification, and forgiveness to a specific physical point in time. This is a strict legal requirement that must be realized in time for anyone to be able to be seen as justified before God. Jesus had to be born under the Law (Galatians 4:4). He was historically raised/risen for our justification (Romans 3:25). You cannot separate credit for this imputation as credit for justification. Justification does not run on credit, but the promise of it does and did for those who believed before the cross, both physically dead and alive.

A credit for the imputation, which will result in justification, when placed in the promised Seed, the only way, truth, and Life (Acts 4:10-12) Thus it's a credit for justification that will be realized when the imputation happens, only after the cross.

Please humor me and read Hebrews 9:11-26. I'm not posting it, though I do feel compelled to do so, but I won't for the sake of space. It's extremely relevant
 

[Dave...]

Good morning Dave,

Please see the PM I just sent to you.

Blessings

I did, I just cannot find the place to click on to read it and answer it. 

If I don't answer right away, it's because there is no way to do so that I can figure out. I'll try some more.

[Dave...]

Good morning Dave,

Please see the PM I just sent to you.

Blessings

I think I figured it out, but I don't remember how I did it. Gettin' old   

[4WD]

One must be in "the Way, the Truth, and the Life", to be born again and justified. The promises are realized through the Promised Seed, Jesus, and nowhere else but Him. That's why OT believers were predestined to believe the Gospel. The ones not living had to wait for the cross. No salvation outside of Christ Jesus. Not even by promise. It's through Jesus that all the promises are realized; Being born again, the life from the indwelling, being justified, all in Jesus. 

Promises do not cleanse Temples, blood does.

Believers are placed into Jesus Christ by the baptism with the Holy Spirit. For some, it was owed to them by Promise, both dead and alive.

Did you ever call Pentecost the birth of the Church? Why?

That's when the first believers were placed into Christ Jesus. Only "in Christ" is there salvation.

This is what began with the promised Seed at Pentecost.....

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Nobody goes to be with the Father until they are placed into Christ. Nobody was placed into Christ until Pentecost. God passed over their sins until they were actually atoned for on the cross (Romans 3:25-26 which would be a lie if their sin was already atoned). Until Jesus actually said "It is finished" on the cross, the righteousness required for justification did not historically exist in the human realm.

How can somebody have the New Covenant reality before the New Covenant was ushered in with the blood of Christ?

Jesus deliberately misquotes Exodus 24:8, adding "My". Of course, what Moses did only covered sin until justification happened and was available. That's the "covered" in Romans 3:25-26. Which could never take away sin (Hebrews 10:4)

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, "This is the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you according to all these words."

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 
Jesus inserts the word "My" into Moses' statement "this is *My* blood of the *new* covenant". Jesus legally tied the idea of covenant, justification, and forgiveness to a specific physical point in time. This is a strict legal requirement that must be realized in time for anyone to be able to be seen as justified before God. Jesus had to be born under the Law (Galatians 4:4). He was historically raised/risen for our justification (Romans 3:25). You cannot separate credit for this imputation as credit for justification. Justification does not run on credit, but the promise of it does and did for those who believed before the cross, both physically dead and alive.

A credit for the imputation, which will result in justification, when placed in the promised Seed, the only way, truth, and Life (Acts 4:10-12) Thus it's a credit for justification that will be realized when the imputation happens, only after the cross.

Please humor me and read Hebrews 9:11-26. I'm not posting it, though I do feel compelled to do so, but I won't for the sake of space. It's extremely relevant
 

I don't know where you got all of that, but it certainly doesn't come from Hebrews 9:11-26.  You are interpolating into the scriptures what simply is not there.

God did not lie when he said that Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness. I think perhaps you do not understand what that really means.

[Rella]

Hi Dave, I PMed you a link.

[Hobie]

My thinking in this matter.

Abraham couldn't be justified from the foundations of the world, because there was nothing to justify Him yet.

He was credited with righteousness, but credit is not imputed. It's credited to be imputed. God could justly "pass over" the sins of Old Testament believers because He knew the ultimate payment was coming (Romans 3:25-26).

When Jesus died on the cross, the means of being justified was available, but one still needed to be in Christ, and only after the death, resurrection and ascension.

That's why I chose the fourth option. It was only after Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, Abraham's bosom, that they could have been made whole "in Christ". They, Abrahams bosom, Paradise, ascended with Jesus and were the first to do so and be with the Father in the third heaven.

But Christ declared 'Abraham rejoiced to see my day,and he saw it, and was glad.' So its clear Christ interacted with him and he saw the future and rejoiced and was glad on what he saw.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

When was Abraham literally justified before God.

Reply in a post to explain, if you like.

Thanks

To be justified, in the legal sense, I think you first need to be accused.

When was Abraham accused?  I don't know.  I know there's an accuser.  I know he accused Job before God while Job was yet living.  If one thing is like the other, then it happened during some part of Abraham's life.

[Dave...]

I don't know where you got all of that, but it certainly doesn't come from Hebrews 9:11-26.  You are interpolating into the scriptures what simply is not there.

God did not lie when he said that Abraham's faith was credited to him for righteousness. I think perhaps you do not understand what that really means.

From the same book of Romans. In the OT the word used was "kaphar", translated in the NT as "epikaluptō.". Paul deliberately uses David's poetry.

Romans 4:6-7 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;

Covered, not atoned.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had *passed over (paresis) the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The Cross is what made God "just" (by paying the debt) and the "justifier" (by having the legal right to credit Abraham in the first place).

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away
(Aphaireō) sins.

Compare *paresis* (covered) in Romans 3:25-26, and Aphaireō (meaning cut away)in Hebrews 10:4, to *aphesis* (forgiveness) of sin in Matthew 26:28, and in Hebrews 10:18.

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission (*aphesis*) of sins.

Hebrews 10:18 Now where there is remission (*aphesis*) of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

When did the animal sacrifices stop? Meaning, there is no longer a reason to cover sin? After the cross. Before that sin was covered. Abraham included, using the same language that Paul used with David. 

Hebrews 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to *put away sin ("Athetesis:") by the sacrifice of Himself.

[Dave...]

But Christ declared 'Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad.' So its clear Christ interacted with him and he saw the future and rejoiced and was glad on what he saw

I mentioned John 8:56 somewhere in this thread, or recently in another thread, I don't remember.

Abraham rejoiced because through OT types and knowing that his justification was on credit, he'd seen the day that the debt for sin was actually going to be paid. Genesis 22, 22:14 specifically.

This is why Abraham rejoiced.

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Hebrews 9:24-26 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself (His ascension, glorified, lifted up), now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hebrews 9:11-26 provides even more context.

[Dave...]

To be justified, in the legal sense, I think you first need to be accused.

When was Abraham accused?  I don't know.  I know there's an accuser.  I know he accused Job before God while Job was yet living.  If one thing is like the other, then it happened during some part of Abraham's life.

Under the Law everyone is accused.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

And we receive that redemption when we're placed into Christ, the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Colossians 2:9-14). That's the bigger context. Look up the Greek on "handwriting of requirements".

Think of it like this. Because they had faith, God basically postponed the demands of the Law on them until that debt could be paid. The hand written requirements were satisfied at the cross. There was only debt, and promises before the cross. Justification comes when Jesus's blood is spilt and He dies on the cross. Only then can He enter the true holy of holies on our behalf. 

Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

When we're placed into Christ, we're in the Holy of holies with Him, and the Father.

Hebrews 10:19-22 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

This is what the OT believers we're waiting for. To be placed into Christ after the cross.

Hebrews 11:39-40 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

[4WD]

This is what the OT believers we're waiting for. To be placed into Christ after the cross.

They had no idea whatsoever about being placed in Christ.  They were waiting for their Messiah to come.  The Messiah to them was thought to be a repeat of David, the king of Isarel.

[Dave...]

They had no idea whatsoever about being placed in Christ.  They were waiting for their Messiah to come.  The Messiah to them was thought to be a repeat of David, the king of Israel.

This is what Jesus told the disciples to wait for. Baptism means placing into. It's what John prophesied about before Jesus even came onto the scene. Even water baptism, both before the DRA and after pictures this, and afterword's is still used as a public symbolic testimony even today.

The prophecy of this goes back all through the OT, Ezekiel 36:26-27, Abrahams promised "Seed" of which the promises were made to and through. The "Seed" is the Elect One, the Chosen. And only being "in" that Seed can we be saved. All the types pointed towards this. Passover, Noah's Arc, the Tabernacle with the Priest only being able to enter the holy of holies when purified, or pure. 

Regardless, they had to wait the fulfillment of these promises. The promise of the Father which you have heard, and they were told to wait for it, and knew that salvation came with that spirit baptism when they received it. The Holy Spirit that placed them into/immersed them into/ baptized them into Jesus. The body of Christ.

Acts 1:4–5 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

John 14:17-18 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Look at Hebrews 9-10. Jesus' body is now the veil, the doorway, and the Tabernacle itself. In Him we can enter the Holy of holies.