When was Abraham justified

[Dave...]

Ah...this is one of David's parallelisms.  This one is also linked to 'in whose spirit is no deceit.'  Shall we also apply that to Abraham?  Probably not - David is speaking in generalities rather than talking about Abraham here.

Abraham is included in that generality, that was my point. Abraham is not saved in some other way, a super extra special way, he's saved just like every other OT believer. My point was that sin being covered, is equated by David with sin not being imputed. So the idea that Abraham had no sin (BTW, Scripture records Him sinning), is not Biblical.

"because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

The way you've read things from the NT backwards into the OT has resulted in you accusing Abraham of sin in a way that is kind of uncomfortable and makes me suspect something's gone a bit wrong.

LOL Really?

It also isn't necessary.  Genesis tells us what happened - Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness.

And he died having not received the promises owed to Him because Abraham, listed  as one of the heroes who.....were not yet made prefect, meaning justified.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

I think maybe you're overcomplicating things, and Abraham kind of got dragged into you making a point?

Again, is Abraham saved in some extra special way that the rest of us do not know about? If so, then He has something to boast about, right? He's saved in Christ, just like everyone else. He's even listed among the other heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 as not yet perfected along with the rest until, the cross.

Dave 

[4WD]

Again, is Abraham saved in some extra special way that the rest of us do not know about? If so, then He has something to boast about, right? He's saved in Christ, just like everyone else. He's even listed among the other heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 as not yet perfected along with the rest until, the cross.

Dave 

Abraham was saved just like everyone else, both before and after the cross.  The difference is that the effect of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was retroactively applied to all those saved before the cross.

The OT saints were saved; it is just that the debt, the punishment, for their sins had not been paid.  When they died, they entered paradise just as do the NT [new covenant] saints when we die. We and they after death reside in the intermediate state of paradise until Christ returns at the end of the age and the final destinations of both saved and lost are established.

[Dave...]

Abraham was saved just like everyone else, both before and after the cross.  The difference is that the effect of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was retroactively applied to all those saved before the cross.

The OT saints were saved; it is just that the debt, the punishment, for their sins had not been paid.  When they died, they entered paradise just as do the NT [new covenant] saints when we die. We and they after death reside in the intermediate state of paradise until Christ returns at the end of the age and the final destinations of both saved and lost are established.

But that justification, that salvation, was retroactive only in promise, not in reality, as I have already shown. That's why it was a promise. It had to happen. OT high Priest did not enter the Holy of Holies on credit. Blood needed to be spilt. That's why the curtain tore down the middle in the Temple at the exact same time Jesus died on the cross. That promise is realized in and through the promised "Seed", Jesus. That's why God was approached in Tabernacles and Temples in the OT, and after Christ's death, He came to actually live in believers with the indwelling Holy Spirit. The baptism with the Holy Spirit did not begin until Pentecost. That's what places a believer in Christ. Without being in Christ, we're not justified or born again. There must be a death and resurrection, and then Jesus being glorified.

A question that you need to ask yourself is do you trust in the Bible for truth, or a system created to replace the Bible? Because I've given you a lot of Scripture that contradicts your statements here, and like most Calvinists, you push it aside as if it were nothing, for the sake of the system. Isn't that Scripture that you're continually pushing aside starting to pile up high? I know it is, because I hit that same crossroads myself and refused to allow this error in my understanding of Scripture. That's where few people, including most reformed people are willing to go. What you do at this point is either what a Truth seeker does, that's a Jesus seeker, or what an idolater does, that being building a god in your own image, and pushing that truth (Jesus) aside for a system.

Hebrews 9:15-17 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Your answer is right there in Hebrews 9:15-17 

you may want to also check out Hebrews 9:22-28,10:1, 10:9-21

Hebrews 10:18"Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin." That means if the OT believers sins were already forgiven, there is no longer an offering needed for them. There is no retroactive remission in reality, only in promise.

The "passing over the sins previously committed" of Romans 3:25-26 does not mean that they were already justified, it means that God put a hold on his judgment until atonement could actually be made. God withholds judgement because they were not yet made perfect and justified, legally. There was nothing to justify them yet, so there sin was covered, passed over, until actual atonement could be made.

[4WD]

But that justification, that salvation, was retroactive only in promise, not in reality, as I have already shown.

But you are not understanding the difference between forgiveness of sins, the payment of the debt resulting from those sins, and the final gift of the crown of life, the actual receiving of the inheritance of eternal life.

To have faith imputed for righteousness is justification.  The scripture says, "Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness".

There is nothing in scripture that says or suggests that Abraham was not justified during Abraham's lifetime. Abraham was saved when he was justified. When He died, Abraham [his spirit] went to be with Jesus in paradise. He did not have to wait until the first coming of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross.

Salvation was a reality in Abraham's lifetime!!

The promise of eternal inheritance is realized in all the saved, those under the old covenant and those under the new covenant, only at the second coming.  That is the final culmination of salvation; it is the highlight, the crown, of salvation.

[Dave...]

But you are not understanding the difference between forgiveness of sins, the payment of the debt resulting from those sins, and the final gift of the crown of life, the actual receiving of the inheritance of eternal life.

To have faith imputed for righteousness is justification.  The scripture says, "Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness".

There is nothing in scripture that says or suggests that Abraham was not justified during Abraham's lifetime. Abraham was saved when he was justified. When He died, Abraham [his spirit] went to be with Jesus in paradise. He did not have to wait until the first coming of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross.

Salvation was a reality in Abraham's lifetime!!

The promise of eternal inheritance is realized in all the saved, those under the old covenant and those under the new covenant, only at the second coming.  That is the final culmination of salvation; it is the highlight, the crown, of salvation.

There's a very simple principle that you're missing. That is, only "in Christ" does someone receive the things that justify them, and 'that' only after the cross. Even if OT believers could be placed in Christ before the cross, the saving ingredients are not there for them to be justified. "In Christ" is where a person is born again, imputed with the righteousness of God, and Jesus' atonement applies. Nobody is saved by the promise of the "Seed", they are literally saved through the "Seed", by being placed into Him. It's a spiritual immersion, making the believer one with the Son, and thus, making us one with the Father. This is everywhere in Scripture. It's a simple principle. That Jesus really, really, really is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, literally. This began when the first believers were placed into Christ Jesus at the birth of the Church. We see the first OT believers who were still living receiving this promise all through out the book of Acts. Yes, they were all true OT believers and guess what? Salvation came to the Gentiles, just like it did the Jews, as recorded in Acts. Actual salvation. Why? Because they believed the Gospel and received the Holy Spirit indwelling, the life, and that placed them in Christ where they were born again and justified.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The perfect of Hebrews 11:39-40 is defined here....the perfecting is what the sacrifices failed to do, take away sins, legally. That's justification. They continued offering those sacrifices up until the cross. Why? (**answer**). Because they were not yet made perfect.

Hebrews 10:1-4 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. **For then would they not have ceased to be offered**? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Pay close attention when reading this passage. It tells us when....

John 3:13-17 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, [so] that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, [so] that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but [in order] that the world through Him might be saved.

Many people miss the fact that John 3:16 is time sensitive and points to the DRA of Jesus as the reason it's possible. Not the promise of it, but it actually happening.

John 12:31-33 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

This idea of applying atonement before it happened does not come from Scripture, it comes from tradition, the Catholic church trying to defend it's false doctrines, like the priesthood in the NT, which needs for the NT to be the same as the OT. Unfortunately we still see a lot of that Catholic error in the reformed movement today. I call todays reformers 'Catholic light' for that reason.