Womb with a View

[kmv]

Janine, you can always come over to the dark side ...um, I mean the Disciples of Christ.

We'd let you lead the singing...well, as long as you didn't get us too emotional.  ;)


Kari.

It does to us!

Personally, I would much prefer the silent role, but the DoC is dragging me into greater leadership, public and private.  My shy self hates the public aspect, but I'm certainly becoming more 'on fire for the truth' as I mature.  



Kari.

[Nevertheless]

For me, I am on hold, treading water, waiting on the Lord's leading, however you want to put it.  I'm also trying desperately to give God my frustration so that it doesn't turn to bitterness, and looking for the lessons God has for me in this.  It's not easy!

Hubby and I are in an interesting position.  His personality and spiritual gift of service do not suit him for leadership positions, but because he is a godly man, and a willing worker, he is often put in those positions.  My personality and spiritual gift of teaching suit me for leadership positions, but because of my gender, I am only asked to lead/teach children.

At first glance one would think that we would have difficulties with submission/leadership within our marraige, but we do not.  We support each other and look to Christ as the head of our family, so there is no power struggle.  But we continue to have trouble with our extended family, the church.

Hubby can deal with leadership expectations by refusing offers.  Others don't understand, but he is much more satisfied and joyful in his service than when he was trying to do jobs that God had not designed him to do.

I, however, continue to be frustrated.  But I have confidence in my Lord.  He will not give me a greater burden than I can bear, and He will use this time of frustration for good.  Sometimes I just wish He'd hurry up about it!!!!    :blush:

Never

[Nevertheless]

My main problem with the whole "women's roles" issue in my church is that it all seems so hypocritical to me.  We have plenty of women in my church who do the work of deacons, and do it well, with the full approval of all the congregation and leadership.  But they are not called deacons or deaconesses.  In fact, most of them would be horrified at the idea.  

Most of our adult classes are of the discussion type, with women participating as fully as men, except that the women are not asked to "lead prayer". (Though if we are all taking turns praying aloud the women are expected to participate as well.)

Women sing in groups and as solos in front of the congregation, but never "lead" the singing, though they might participate as part of a "worship team" standing behind the "leader".  Women who sing solos sometimes give a short speech of introduction or explain the meaning of the song they are going to sing - like a mini devotional. (Just don't call it that!)

It seems to me that if a woman is not allowed to be a deacon, she shouldn't be doing the work of a deacon.

And if a woman shouldn't "lead prayer" then she should never be allowed to pray aloud.

And if a woman shouldn't teach a man then she should never be allowed to speak in his presence lest he learn something!



There. I feel much better now that I've vented.

:blush:

Never

[socrmom]

For now, I am treading water. Publicly anyway.  In our small group, leadership is open to anyone who has the desire to lead discussion.  Some in our group don't know that this is supposed to be an issue, and therefore participate fully and are growing.  So much is personally gained when one does all the study and preperation, and prayer, to lead the group in conversation.  

At church, the issue has just recently begun to be addressed.  I am very frustrated at times, yet, I feel called to this place for now.  As in many areas of my life, I ask for God's help to move my eyes off of myself (and my focus off of whatever the issue at hand is) and onto Him and his purposes.  

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It seems to me that if a woman is not allowed to be a deacon, she shouldn't be doing the work of a deacon.

And if a woman shouldn't "lead prayer" then she should never be allowed to pray aloud.

And if a woman shouldn't teach a man then she should never be allowed to speak in his presence lest he learn something!

[/quote]
This is so true, yet in our place I think that some of these absolutes are held in word only.  We do not have deacons, only ministry leaders, several of which are women.  The formality of the rules is in definate breakdown, although some are not ready to re-write the rules quite yet.

[Son of a Preacher Man]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (kmv @ Jan. 22 2003,9:08)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]at first it was scary not having a 'right' answer...[/quote]
Imagine how scary it is for your "skeptic".  Ouch.
:0

[Son of a Preacher Man]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Jan. 23 2003,09:48)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I just couldn't bear yet another class devoted to such unimportant tripe.  People like my Michael (whose position against a dress code being within the elders' authority to enforce I fully agree with) are knocking their heads against a stone wall IMO.

Yes, it teaches the people who cannot afford to dress up that they are not worthy to serve in public.  Even though people would gladly give them a tie... Someone has taken to keeping ties in the foyer for stray tieless plate passers to don... It still says "you are not worthy until you meet this level of dress."

Perhaps worse than that, it says "You are worthy if you meet this level of dress."  [/quote]
This just sounds so ungodly to me.  How in the name of all that is good and decent did people develop such a warped perspective?  This is a different subject though, isn't it?  Janine--kick this one to a new thread so I can get on my SoaP-box.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Still, I get tired of fighting that battle when there are enemies creeping about who never get challenged.
[/quote]

It's people like you that encourage me to keep fighting.  Don't be discouraged.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]They need something else.[/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]then everyone needs something else.[/quote]

You bet they do!  It sounds like this "discussion" class is in the auditorium, which is totally self-defeating.  If somebody is up in front of the "class" it's dialogue, not discussion.  Not everybody will talk and the speaker will interject in between every response.  Right now I'm teaching one that way, yes it's more effective than lecture, but the only reason I'm doing it that way is because it's Revelation.  I have to do a bit more than guide because I have to share my research.  Yada, yada, yada.  Different formats for different topics, I think.

So... do some backstrokes and forget about treading water for a while. :D  Push for small group(s) as an alternative class.  Don't most "churches" have multiple classes on Wed. nite?  If you need some facts to support this as the best form of adult learning, I can talk to the preacher man and the son can send them to you.

SoaPMan

[nerdneh]

Janine,
Perhaps it is easier to get excited about dress codes in order to be able to ignore the ineptitude of a church not sharing Jesus with all those hungering and thirsting for a single cup of cold spritual water. It's a twist on the old routine of the guy who comes home having had a horrible day at work and kicking the dog instead of dealing honestly with his problems.

You have blessed me over and over with your insights, spirit and incredible talents.

[socrmom]

Janine, what well said thoughts.  My family does not attend church on Wed. eves.  There is just nothing at that time that nourishes us.  Yes, maybe I ought to go to nourish someone else, but as I already spend most Sundays teaching and loving on the kids, I've decided to spend Wednesdays teaching and loving my own at home.  

Yet, on a Tues. nights, a Beth Moore series is underway, led by our wonderful and incredible elders wives.  I am so excited about this study. Yeah!!!

[Booty]

Why would we want people to attend services, classes, studies etc that they do not like and are not blessed by?

[janine]

Does a congregation falling out of the pews into the aisles, holding their aching ribs, as they bellow out gales of laughter, count as emotionalism?

[PEGGY JOYCE]

Janine, what I've seen of you, honey, you are filled with the Holy Spirit.  You use those talents!!  If your congregation is not using you in a teaching, leading way, they are really losing out on a blessing in their congregation.
I love your attitude and your knowledge of the Bible.
pjindy



[!--EDIT|janine|Jan. 22 2003,11:16--]

[janine]

Nevertheless ( :thumbup: EvertheLass!) replied to a segment of an old post by Arkstfan:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I am no fan of private schools. It is a constant struggle with our teen group to deal with the private school kids. Our local private schools do a great job of creating a condescending holier than you attitude. The chapel and Bible class requirements hurt our classes as the private school kids spit out the expected canned answers.[/quote]
Ark, I know you wrote this two months ago, but I just read it and I'd like to respond.

Can I help you to see things from the other perspective?  I was/am one of those private schooled kids.  From third grade through high school I had daily Bible classes and weekly chapels.  I have also been "blessed" with the ability to learn and remember easily.  Is it any wonder that I was bored and frustrated with classes at church?

It is no different today.  It is so hard to faithfully attend classes when you know your knowledge of the "lesson" is greater than the teacher's.  Add to that a spiritual gift of teaching in a female who relates best to adults.  (I was that way as a kid too.)

So what is the answer?  Do we decide that it's better to keep all of our kids scripturally ignorant so that our church classes are easier to manage?  Maybe we need to change our class curriculum to where "canned answers" won't work.  We really need, somehow, to instill a love for God's word in all of our people, so that we all are anxious to learn.

Never[/quote]

Her focus caused me to wonder about yet another facet of church life:

I wonder, do we need to wait around for "the church" (that includes us women) to finish wrestling with all the implications of past cultural effects, bad exegesis, bad hermeneutics, bad hair days, whatever, re: "Woman's Role In The Church"?

While the issues are being (supposedly) dealt with, are you treading water?  What do you do with your talents and your time if there is not full scope for their use in your current church family?

Hadn't we better use it before we lose it?

To quote both the last of the ancient elves, and the newly awakened modern ones in Colorado, in Gael Baudino's novel Shroud of Shadow...

When they contemplated an eternity on this Earth, burdened and blessed with magnificent gifts and powers and talents...

And when they knew said gifts were desperately needed, but that oftentimes they were not welcome to exercise them...

"How do we -- get by?"[/b]



[!--EDIT|janine|Jan. 22 2003,11:17--]

[Son of a Preacher Man]

To the very frustrated among us...

In the very least, everybody should push for group discussion classes.  Lecture classes represent all that is soul-less and wrong! :cry:

Yep, that's the ticket! 90% of the time this can be done without leaving your present church.  Make sure they get a true "facilitator" instead of a "teacher".  Group discussion makes the participants the teachers and the leader is just the guide to keep discussion on track.  As a group leader, I've learned more than I ever did as a teacher and it is because of what my wondeful sisters have to say.

Then...

well, you can decide what happens next.  But you didn't hear this from me. :wave: Let's just say it has been my experience that this first step opens the door to a wealth of... dare I say, CHANGE.

Ooops... I did it again. :blush:

[ranger]

I have been struggling with this issue for some time.  Often, I feel like the only one who is dissatisfied with patriarchy in our church.  Our church does have much more opportunity for women than most c of c's.  I co-teach an adult class with my husband.  But, if a child is ill at home, I would not even consider teaching solo. I stay home with the sick child.  I haven't been told that I can't or shouldn't, but...  I don't want to risk offending someone.  Bottom line.  It's fear.  Yuck.

One observation that has surprized me - it seems to me as if the older men are more open to an egalitarian model than the younger men and younger women as well.  What is up with that? It's baffling!  

Something written by D'Esta Love struck home:  "What is the church of Christ to do with a woman like me?"  Indeed.

[kmv]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In the very least, everybody should push for group discussion classes.  Lecture classes represent all that is soul-less and wrong!  

Yep, that's the ticket! 90% of the time this can be done without leaving your present church.  Make sure they get a true "facilitator" instead of a "teacher".  Group discussion makes the participants the teachers and the leader is just the guide to keep discussion on track.  As a group leader, I've learned more than I ever did as a teacher and it is because of what my wondeful sisters have to say.
[/quote]

When my SS class couldn't get anyone to commit to teaching the class for a year, we decided to go teacherless.  We picked the class skeptic to be the 'leader' and do the paperwork, we decide what we want to learn for a couple of months at a time, then take turns researching and presenting a 'lesson' and then discuss.  It has been such a blessing.  The skeptic is great as a moderator, because he isn't married to any particular doctrine.  We've all learned more from our turns researching than we ever did from listening to someone drone for half an hour, and we've really come to know each other by the discussion.  

I came from the CofC, and at first it was scary not having a 'right' answer-who would have thought you could learn God's word without someone there to tell you if you'd got it right?  But now it's a joy to go to class.  I highly recommend it.

[nerdneh]

If a male person may intrude a bit here, I ran across a remark in one of Craig Keener's books on this topic that made me think again. My memory tells me that he said; "It is a risky business to contradict another Christian's call to ministry." Or, something close to that....

Yet, we do it all the time...thus squandering many of the resources God has placed in congregations for us to be blessed by...

:frowning:

[janine]

Thank God, even such a Bible class as I sort of avoided last night is "discussion" style and not "lecture".  Oh, how deadly that would have been lectured at me...

We always show up late on Wednesdays, because we all stay home and wait for Mike to get cleaned up and fed after work.  This usually means that we miss some singing, announcements, and a short invitation/devo, but we get there for Bible classes.  Mike feels that we need to be there, because of course Bible classes are good for you... and anyway, if we're not there pretty much every time the doors are open, we might be perceived as "unfaithful" and thus injure our witness to our own.

When I walked in, and saw who was leading the adult class, I never even went into the auditorium.  I stood around indecisively for a few seconds, then wandered toward the nursery, where I could hear the lesson on-speaker, but where I could also have a deep, exciting and loving discussion with the sister who was in there with her grandchild.

So I did.

We talked about times when we had stepped out in faith that God was in control, for the sake of another's best interests or of following our husbands' leads.
We talked of the blessing of past times when we had been able to "nest", to settle into a seemingly perfect home, neighborhood, church family, and of the pain of giving those positions up... and of the blessings of moving on, blind in the dark but leaping anyway into our Father's arms.

We talked of confession of sin and redemption and the before-and-after difference in ourselves and others when a true love of Jesus enters the picture.  My adult daughter wandered in & joined us at some point.  Seems she could not endure the adult class either...

We "had church" in the nursery, while the adult (?) Bible class wrangled with ideas about what church leaderships can bind upon the congregation re: dress codes, etc. The class leader (a man who has grown wonderfully over the years, for sure, and has been an associate minister elsewhere) used James' admonition about not despising the poor man in vile raiment, coupled with his own recollections of his worldly days and how he would dress up to go bar-hopping, to come up with how it is good and right that the handful of men who stand up & perform some public service/function must dress according to how the elders decide such should dress.  Or else the men should just not ever serve in that way.

I just couldn't bear yet another class devoted to such unimportant tripe.  People like my Michael (whose position against a dress code being within the elders' authority to enforce I fully agree with) are knocking their heads against a stone wall IMO.

Yes, it teaches the people who cannot afford to dress up that they are not worthy to serve in public.  Even though people would gladly give them a tie... Someone has taken to keeping ties in the foyer for stray tieless plate passers to don... It still says "you are not worthy until you meet this level of dress."

Perhaps worse than that, it says "You are worthy if you meet this level of dress."  Never mind what odd doctrines the guys may hold to; never mind that at least one regular dresser-upper-Communion-plate-passer-outer doesn't believe that baptism is a necessary part of submitting to salvation.  He wears a tie, so he's in.

Still, I get tired of fighting that battle when there are enemies creeping about who never get challenged.

There are people like me (well, I'm tough, so maybe I don't count) and my nursery friend (who feels misunderstood and as comfortable as a vampire in the Vatican "in church") who need something else.  There were a handful of people who stayed out in the foyer all through that class rather than being in there.   They need something else.

It's not that I don't like wrangling!  All sorts of debate, formal or informal or composed of grunts over the breakfast table, I like!  When it's the only format, though, and when it appears that not everyone involved has the same... vocabulary?  Bible knowledge?  understanding of the basics of what makes one a Christian?... then everyone needs something else.

It would be so much easier to feel all self-righteous and put-upon and abused, if the people I disagree with were jerks, or if they did not have loving servants' hearts.  They do, God bless 'em.

So for now, I'll just have to keep on putting up with them, as I hope they can continue to do with me.

[Booty]

Janine,

The good Lord chose you some time back to teach and to preach to a certain Irishman. You've been doing a wonderful job of it lass, bless you for it. Now if someone has a problem, well they need to talk to the Lord.

Now everyone here knows my feelings on this opression of women in the church of Christ, if you don't, you will. But allow me to shre something, a phenomenum that occured here.

As part of our Sunday worship service, we have incorporated a "Study" in addition to the more conventional Sermon. It functions in the following manner. Everyone is to read the chapter to be discussed prior. We work our way sequentially through the Gospels, one chapter a week. A man, (For now), then simply invites ANYONE to share a particular verse in the chapter studied that has drawn their attention. They read the verse or passage and make comments on it, inviting the comments of others. At times two different people will share the same passage, but present different viewpoints on it. Perhaps one seeing the treachery of the Pharisees and another seeing the long suffering patience of Jesus.

It gives us a blessed opportunity to see the word through the eyes of our brothers and sisters, LEARNING from EACH of them. Now one or two visitors have migrated this back to their home congregations. It has not made it to the Sunday services yet, but it did crop up in a few Bible study evenings, including two spontaneous ones.

Note that last sentence, two spontaneous ones. Spontaneous Bible studies are an interesting concept, like certain churches springing up in Anzoategui Venezueal, they are just outside the normal loop, (Ach and it is Shades of St Paddy to be sure!). Being outside the normal loop, certain paradigms are simply avoided.

Oh now I know any brit will tell you rebellion and insurrection is an Irish pasttime. But you know we Irish might simply tell you, it is freedom from oppression.

ACh and I will be getting back to our own wee rebellion here now, God bless you lasses. Oh and if you ever really want to be free, it starts within your own self.

[patriciaredstone]

We don't go on Wednesday night either. It's just too depressing compared to family time at home.

You know how the preacher is always saying that not going to church or bible class is a vote not to even have church or bible class?

I think that logic, strange as it seems, could be put to good use for a congregational survey. Instead of asking us to fill out all of the silly questionaires about "what do you like? what do you not like? how do you think this could be improved?" they just tell you that -- for one week only -- to only show up for events, services and classes if you really like and are blessed by. This should be compulsory for the children, teens, adults and leaders. Someone takes attendance, and a report is made. Voila! The truth is out!

[nerdneh]

Because, dear hermano, attendance has become an end rather than a means.