Not meaning to sound like a bigot...

[Eric]

Not being in the States, this is a difficult one, but was there not some apologies made by the ACU (ACC to older people) President to African-American Christians on behalf of at least the school if not us as a movment?

In Canada the largest growing ethnic group is our aboriginal (native Canadian) peoples.  Yet from my experience you will find very few in our churches.  More will found in pentacostal groups, but even that is not equivalent to the percentages of our nation.

This is definitely an area that we as a movement need to address.
Eric

[janine]

Dr. Jack Evans from Southwestern is about as "T.D. Jakes" as an a cappella church of Christ in the southern U.S. is gonna get.

We did that.  "We" are somewhere near 50-50 black and white.

Of the other congregations cooperating in the big seminar we held, one is our small "plant" church, heavy on the Cajuns and Houmas Indians; one is at least twice the size of our 150+/- membership, and all Black that I know of; another is tiny and almost all white; one in New Orleans is mixed, perhaps, but mostly white and probably twice our size also.

We're a mixed bag.

T.D. Jakes, indeed.  He preaches 'way too much freedom in some areas and 'way too little in others for churches like ours to call him. :p

[janine]

Fate - I liked Dr. Jack but I really enjoyed his wife Patricia's presentation.

The men met for one of the seminar sessions in the auditorium we'd rented, with the proper sound system and impressive draped stage.

The women, in that session, were crowded around tables in the concession/reception area, the glass-fronted lobby, with a rinky-dink sound system we cobbled together & brought from the church building.

Heaven help us if we have mixed genders in the room when a woman opens her mouth behind a microphone.  

Despite the location, the women had a better time, I think.

As for finding someting that fits your demographic and also attracts non-African-heritage people...  I don't know for sure how that would translate for people our age (I'll be 40 next year)...

But as for the "20-somethings", a huge portion of them, I bet, consider their tastes "urban", whether or not they are urban, whatever their race/ethnicity.

Seems like, at least for the people your age & younger, it may not be as hard as you think...

Now, can you stomach all things "urban"?

I would be interested to know if other denominations of our size have similar ethic and racial populations. Does anyone know?  I will try to do some research to find out.  My congregation is very multi-cultural. It is about 60% Caucasian, 30% Afro-American, and 10% Other (Korean, Hispanic, etc.)  Because I live in a largely cosmopolitan area, it is just the general make-up of the community, not necessarily a racial preference one way or the other. It may be that the reason there are fewer Afro-Americans represented in RM congregations in other parts of the country is a simple case of demographics. Hopefully that's it :)
Em

[chrischar]

The Church of the Nazarene is also nearly 90 percent white. So is the Catholic Church. It's not because the church of Christ is "racist and evil."

And that Republican stat? It's basically true. All I know is that it is about 90 percent. That stat holds true in nearly all Christian fellowships. I know Baptists are 86 percent Republican. I can't remember the Methodist stat because it has changed in the last 5 years because several of them now openly supporting the homosexual lifestyle, that made their Democrat percentage go up.

If you want to know my sources, it was a journal for a marketing group to Christians. They had stats on every denomination in the country. I can't remember the name, but will find out.

Chris

[Fate]

nerdneh you said "One Sunday I baptized an African-American lady into Christ and received some threats from the local KKK, which was alive and well at that time."

Whoa. That's scary.

[janine]

Goodness, Julie!

Unless the singing group is in some sort of secular (usually) competition where the performance and appearance count for points... why would movement matter?

Unless you're so excited you're pretty much David-dancing across the stage...  :D  could that be it?... or is it the David-dancing costume?

p.s.: Happy Retreat

*******************************************

Hey, Nicholas!

The only point I was trying to make about Jakes is that he's not "one of us"; he doesn't strike me as someone the average Church-o-Christer would be comfy with as, say, a gospel meeting speaker.  He mightn't honor the tried-and-true important Church-o-Christ highlights needed for a successful Church-o-Christ meeting.  I'm just drawing on my own experience to say that, now, don't think I'm trying to paint everyone with the same brush.

Perhaps the note about Dr. Evans not wanting to be thought of the same ilk as T.D. Jakes comes from that same quarter.  That's how I saw it, anyway.

Always good to "hear" from you two, julie danley & Nicholas  :)  :D  ;)

[spurly]

Possibly one of the reasons that white churches remain so white and black churches remain so black is that a church will perpetuate itself.

The church will not purposely exclude people of other races, but if the congregation is primarily white, they will tend to conduct their services in the way that white people enjoy.  If the body is primarily black, they will conduct their services in the way that black people enjoy.  Thus, people of the same ethnic background are attracted, and others are not.

We've got to start going out of our way to make our churches more inclusive to all people.  Let's look at our church services and say things like: "would people of another race feel comfortable in this setting?  Would people of another economic class want to come back again?"  

And then let's change what needs to be changed so that the message of God (which does not change) can reach the most possible people.

Kevin

[Fate]

In my attempts to develop a more multicultural congregation I have been confronted by some of my AfricanAmerican ministerial collegues with some startling stats about the makeup of the COC. It's almost 96% caucasion, about 3% AfricanAmerican and 1% other. It's also about 92% republican (or something like that, I'm pulling these stats from disjointed-topofmyhead-memories).

One of my collegues in particular has wondered about the deep roots in Eurocentric culture and the seeming lack of any serious outreach to AfricanAmericans. He thinks maybe this is the cause.

Some think it is the perception that if one doesn't conform to the basically conservative republicanesque culture of the majority in the COC that you are not welcome.

I am currently trying to "recruit" :0 (for lack of a better word) some singers of different cultures (read non-AfricanAmerican) to minister in song on our P&W team. But it's been tough. This is my attempt to make multiculturalism a part of our public persona and outreach. So I am trying to address this problem on the reverse side where I minister.

So what do you think... Why is the  COC in the USA so "white" and how can we at least work to bring the percentages on par with the nations population? I'm asking your opinions on this board because I respect your them and think you can answer in the same spirit in which I am asking. :)

[winky]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Not being in the States, this is a difficult one, but was there not some apologies made by the ACU (ACC to older people) President to African-American Christians on behalf of at least the school if not us as a movment?[/quote]

Yes, I believe that was 2-3 years ago. I don't know that ACU felt able to speak for our entire movement, but they did publicly apologize for racial discrimination in ACU's past, such as not admitting African Americans, etc. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has any reactions to that (Fate?) and whether you think it was helpful/effective/a good idea, etc. In the spirit of fairness and disclosure, I'll tell you ahead of time that I work in the public relations area at ACU (although I didn't at the time of the apology. just started recently), so that's a small part of why I'm curious, in addition to the other reason (bigger reason) of hoping that it was helpful in race relations for churches in general.

I'm interested to hear responses, ideas and suggestions in this thread, as I think whether African American or Hispanic or whatever, all our churches would benefit from greater diversity. I hope we have lots of good ideas of how to encourage that!

Winky

[WileyClarkson]

Fate,

If I were where you are, I would be volunteering for that P&W team (even though I'm more loud than anything else!).

I think probably the percentages are pretty close, except for the political side.  Down here, it would almost get you disfellowshipped for saying you were a Republican a few years ago.  Most of the old timers in the small rural churches still identify with the Democratic Party, although as the Democratic party keeps moving more liberal and out of step with the rural population there is a pulling away of more and more of those old timers to an either independent or Republican position.

First, I can really only speak for the rural areas.  At Granbury, there is a small percentage of non-white members.  We need a much larger percentage!!!  I haven't ever sensed a racist attitude at Granbury.  The reason is probably due to the nature of the area the church is located in, which is presently mostly upper middle class and above retired white couples (something I doubt I will ever be included in!).   Before the lake was built, it was a sleepy little rural town that was 99.9% white, as were most of the small rural towns in this part of Texas.  The mix percentages have changed drastically in the Mexican-American population and are slowly changing in the African-American.  One of the two couples that leads our small group is an African-American couple.  We are lucky to have them as our leaders.  When I have the priviledge of being able to attend (I work evenings on a rotating days off schedule), Jeff let's me lead the singing since I don't get to lead singing much anymore (actually he get's really upset when HE has to lead the singing! :D).  He and his wife are the leaders of a summer camp ministry that Granbury sponsers for the abused children under CPS watchfull eyes in our area.

Historically in the RM, I think that the percentages are probably due to the initial leadership being white and the fact that most of the country's exploration and expansion in the early to mid 1800's was by the white population.  The RM had a strong attraction to the conservative, independent, rural people in it's early years and since the concentration of the evangelistic efforts were mainly that direction, that would probably account for a large part of what has occurred over the years.  Also, the racism that was apparent in our fellowship up through the latter 1900's was probably also a major restraining factor.  Foy Wallace Jr, as you may already be aware of, was very much for not mixing the races in the churches.  He exerted an influance here in the Texas that was just unimaginable from the 50's through the late 70's.  His influence is still very much felt among the very sectarian, ultra conservative churches here in Texas, even though he has passed from this life.

Got to go.  Hope these thoughts help.

[janine]

It's ever so much more positive and hopeful sounding than "Pagan", "Heathen", "Potential Crispy Critter", don't you think?

[janine]

I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel, and it's not an oncoming train, praise God!

Just using the youth around me, the kids & young adults matching my children in age, as a gauge, race is an incidental, something you know about your friend that may determine what kind of hair treatment you need for the both of you to wear the same hairstyle to the Youth Rally.

I don't know if "color blindness" is desireable.  Understanding some of what those around you go through in more backward society is a good thing.  However, the facets of decision-making that require attention to race are getting fewer & having more & more reasonable weight as time goes on.  

What would be a name for the way I see it working amongst some of my church's youth, among my own kids?  The way I see race taking its little nosebleed-section seat amongst a crowd of other societal factors, rather than being a big, up-front, hairy boogerman?

"Color astigmatism"?  "Color bloodshot dryness"?

[Booty]

And here I was thinking the Republicans are 98% Catholic!!

[nerdneh]

I survived, but the KKK painted a huge set of initials "KKK" and a big line across the road that led to our summer camp. The locals said it meant no black person could cross that line on pain of death. Our camp was in Livingston Parish, which contained the town of Denham Springs, home of one of the more powerful Klan groups. Those were scary days. Fortunately, or blessedly, they did not follow through on their threats, which were along the line of "running me out of town."

[julie danley]

Fate, I do get what you are asking.  I sometimes wonder myself what it is that we are doing that is not attracting black families to our congregation when we live in a predominantly black county.  We are a mostly white congregation with one black family and several black single adults.  We are a small church...130 at the most.  
I also don't like the political leaning to one direction.  Our church is pretty well mixed but most other churches of Christ that I know are mainly Republican.  I am a Democrat and have been asked how I can be a Christian and a Democrat.  We have a long way to go to be more mixed in many ways.
Fate, if I lived closer I would come and sing with you on your praise team.  I love to sing and sing with our praise team but am told that I am too emotive sometimes and have a hard time being still while I sing.  only by grace, Julie

[janine]

I haven't noticed French humor being particularly subtle...

Oh, that was you being subtle!

(Why, paint me green and call me a shamrock.  A very, very large shamrock.  A "Feed Me, Seymore!" sort of shamrock...)

Goodness, Booty, it happens so seldom, you being subtle, that I missed it at first.  I'm terribly sorry!

(I often used to abbreviate that "Goodness" exclaimation as "G'ness", but someone will think I'm going about evoking or invoking Guiness... so I stopped.)

[janine]

Christendom in general, if you put everyone that names the name of Jesus in a blender (ick :p ), would look pretty "white", in the USA, because we are mostly "white", are we not, still?

I see where you're coming from, though, as a concept.  I think.

So many congregations within reach of me here are all or mostly Black, though, it's not my personal experience that understands you!

Bless you for your outreach, sweetie.  If you were near me I'd audition for your singing group today.

How can we make the church less "white"?  Maybe by living less in our "white" worlds, we white Christians?

By being in the lives of people who are not "white like me"?

I look forward to others' undoubtedly better replies...

[Bon Voyage]

Bring in TD Jakes.

[Bon Voyage]

pre-Christian?

[Booty]

:D  :D  :p  :0    :)  ;)

We also have a problem attracting minorities. We currently have only one white, a noisy Irishman, and we need more!!

It appears he is also a Republican, but somehow I believe that to be a different flavour entirely from your term Republican.

But we do have half of the answer, in five years we will start sending wee brown/black missionaries to the USA.

Hmmm We could trade if it's colour you're looking for?

Seriously, absolutely noone here is counting, but then race is just not an issue here.

(Unless of course you call our Irishman an Anglo-Saxon!!) :D

[Fate]

TRL, Janine, Emily, et al....

Your observations are mostly on target. Of course they are generalizations but seem to be pretty accurate.

Within the AfricanAmerican congregations there are several different veins of thought and preaching. The difference between AfricanAmerican congregations and white congregations seems to be the whites ability to co-exist peacefully within a brotherhood of radically differing viewpoints on what AfricanAmerican congregations would deem "doctrine". AfricanAmerican congregations for the most part don't seem to be able to. In other words the things viewed as distinctives of the COC (i.e. those things which are salvation oriented or make us different from "them") are non-negotiables. Breaking those non-negotiables will bring about prompt, often viscious, responses. It seems among white churches there is a leaning toward "coming to the table to negotiate". Other things we basically laugh off as being congregational quirks (i.e. One Cup, non-Sunday school, etc...). As long as they hold to "The Doctrine" we will fellowship them.

But, then again, that is really an older generation phenomena. This was probably based on the median educational range of the older generation in AfricanAmerican congregations. There is a great dissonance occuring now theologically among AfricanAmerican congregations. So much so that it is becoming a political and theological hotbed of controversy.

Actually my main concern though is not necessarily merging our cultures into some homogenized version of church which is culturally-irrelevent to anybody. I am asking is there some way for us as a movement of God to impact AfricanAmericans for Christ and is it possible to have some truly metropolitan congregations in the cities which have diverse populations.

For example, I am a southern Californian. We have one of the most diverse populations in the world. In Los Angeles there are only one or two white congregations (non that I know of are actually in the city). We have about 20 AfricanAmerican congregations. Maybe 3 Hispanic congregations (non of which are self supporting). We have NO congregations that I would consider really mixed racially (Culver Palms has a few black folks but they are basically a white church with a little pepper for flavor ;) ). Therefore I know it's not just about demographics. If so there would be a couple of very large white congregations in LA,  a couple of very large AfricanAmerican congregations in LA, and at least one huge mixed congregation. But it's not so. :(

I'm just wondering if anyone has some ideas or has seen it done.... :D

[janine]

"I'm just wondering if anyone has some ideas or has seen it done".... Fate

I'm living it right now.  It's by default, almost, since I couldn't promise you that foresighted leadership 40 years ago planned for it... but, 'way back when, the main black and main white congregations (likely the only ones for 50 miles at the time, over roads that made it seem like 100 miles) merged.

There was an attempt at first to hold separate services, mostly so that people would feel less threatened on both sides, I think.  Probably there were diehards who hated merging; I know for sure there were people of good will who embraced it and welcomed it.

So, with a tip of the hat at stereotypes...

We listen to the sermon, and some of us answer back... and it ain't always the black members makin' the noise. :0

We sing mostly from the "Songs of Praise" songbook, which includes everything from Gaither to Bach to Watts to Green to "spirituals".  The most choral-style, "high church" song is sung with a swing and a soul you'd not expect, inventive harmonies created on the spot, with the right songleader and the right members present.  The most stereotypical old free-flowing bluesy piece you can find, in or out of the book, might come out in fine choral style with "right notes" and all, depending on who's leading & who's in the pews.

My husband & I struggle to make sure we're not expecting a cultural change out of converts.  The most recent family we've been working with have many, many problems related to substance abuse, lack of education, living on tiny disability checks, etc.

Changes we're trying to help them make have to do with being ready to go when the ride they've called comes to take them to worship or to an appointment, and with keeping appointments made with agencies that can get them training, employment, etc.  We have relied heavily on interaction & advice from Black members to make sure we're not off base.

One of the elders is Black, two are White.  Oddly enough, it's the Black elder who has been the least impressed with this poor Black family's (admittedly weak) efforts to get up out of their crippling lifestyle.  Other families who live near them were taking it it turn to carry the new family to church.  It was mostly me who was picking up the slack during the week, going to hospital  or shopping, etc.

It was like pulling teeth to get the Black elder & his wife in the mix... and when this new family had a stretch at month's end when they needed some help to get food, they mentioned it to this elder & his reply was reportedly something like "sounds like you've got yourself a problem".   I heard that second-hand, but it does sound like his pattern of speech... and why did he not mention that we keep an emergency food pantry at the church offices for times like that?  It was an odd episode...

Anyway, a lot can be accomplished by people of good will.  The last big gospel meeting/seminar we "threw" featured Dr. Jack Evans; we don't concentrate on White speakers, which might be easy to do, since the oldest & most influential of our elders is White.

I'd also love to see more Black preachers come & "try out" with us when we look for a new minister this Fall.  

Hey, can you suggest places on the 'Net I can post info about that preacher-search when it comes up?  I'll mention it here for sure.

[Fate]

I don't know who said that the church of Christ is "racist and evil." That is not my point at all. I think there must be a solution to our inability to impact AfricanAmericans and other non-white ethnic groups. The church of Christ is for everyone.... isn't it?

My concern is not about numerical parity (oops! sorry about the parody/parity goof :) ) or political sameness. It seems to me that we ought to at least strive to mirror the demographics of our communities. I know that there are those who frequent this board who feel like the Democratic party are the spawn of satan and everyone who doesn't agree with the Republican political agenda are barely Christian, if at all. I really could'nt care less about political landscape as far as political opinions go. My concern with the stats I gave are simply as indicators of our inability to impact other people groups for Christ.

Jesus was able to bring together opposite political positions under His banner. Remember Simon Peter? He was a Zealot, a fanatical party wishing to overthrown the Roman Government. Matthew was a publican. A Jew who represented the Roman Government in the collection of taxes. There are very few political parties which are farther apart than these two (maybe the KKK and the Nation of Islam). Yet when they received the call, "Come follow me...", they both responded.

Why isn't the Jesus we're sharing today just as attractive to AfricanAmericans and other non-white ethnic groups as to whites? Why not to Democrats as well as Republicans?  ;)

[janine]

On another board (one with many interesting charms, but it's no GCM Board!), I submitted what I thought was a humorous "caption" for a picture they supplied.

The picture was a Renaissance (?) painting of the apostle Peter on the roof having his vision about the clean & unclean animals.

My caption was written like a headline, something like this:

Theologians Discover Scriptural Precedent For Ku Klux Klan
"There was a sheet filled with beasts", states Apostle Peter.

I'll go back & check on it - there may have been an innocent delay... but I'll bet the reason it didn't get posted right away was that the mention of the Klan tripped some program that shunted it off for moderator review.

I'm not sure I like bigots going underground & learning to be more subtle.  At least when they had pointy-headed sheets with eyeholes on their clotheslines, you knew where they were.
***********************************
PS/edit: I went back and checked, my caption was in.  They said it was likely a temporary victim of tighter protocols in place because of some drunken posters sitting in some pub somewhere 'one-upping' each other. JC :)

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Oct. 15 2002,5:54)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]On another board (one with many interesting charms, but it's no GCM Board!), I submitted what I thought was a humorous "caption" for a picture they supplied.

The picture was a Renaissance (?) painting of the apostle Peter on the roof having his vision about the clean & unclean animals.

My caption was written like a headline, something like this:

Theologians Discover Scriptural Precedent For Ku Klux Klan
"There was a sheet filled with beasts", states Apostle Peter.

I'll go back & check on it - there may have been an innocent delay... but I'll bet the reason it didn't get posted right away was that the mention of the Klan tripped some program that shunted it off for moderator review.

I'm not sure I like bigots going underground & learning to be more subtle.  At least when they had pointy-headed sheets with eyeholes on their clotheslines, you knew where they were.
***********************************
PS/edit: I went back and checked, my caption was in.  They said it was likely a temporary victim of tighter protocols in place because of some drunken posters sitting in some pub somewhere 'one-upping' each other. JC :)[/quote]
JANINE THERE GOES MY TEA AGAIN!!!!

Shall I guess where?

Oh why can I not learn the subtle humour of the French?

the republican % is someone's dream.
the black % i don't know, but i have been around some active congregations.  two of them wanted to continue their own groups and did not accept offers of consolidation from local white groups.  everyone got along, though.  one place i visited each group visited the other for potluck.

dj

[Skip]

I take it that those statistics are taking the narrow view of the CoC in the USA?

For those stats would fit the congregation (north Alabama) that I attend pretty closely - but that's pretty close to the stats for the community that the congregation is in.

We have teachers and deacons from African American families and individuals in the local church, in about the same proportion as the Asian and Latino segments. Mostly Caucasian, though.

But when we consider the missionary work that we support, we find that they are from all over the place - Peru, the Phillipines, the Ukraine and Russia, Uganda, South Africa, southeastern USA, locally, etc. If we combined all of places to which we minister, there is representation from every continent, and many, if not most, are represented by 'home-grown' ministers, not US-born.

We've found that our mission work outside the US is much more productive (in terms of reaching the lost) than the domestic work. We haven't given up the 'fight' locally, but when we knocked 5000 doors in the local community, there was a very minimal response (ironically, one of the few was an African-American lady). In Peru, with a comparable effort, we saw hundreds attend and dozens respond to the gospel.

But I ramble...

[Fate]

Winky et al.,

On the ACU thing. I thought it was great. I was at SWCC when Dr. Money came. The problem is that there is a deep abiding distrust among many AfricanAmerican preachers for our caucasion counterparts. Not so much among my generation and younger (I'm 40). But among the older generation. They can still  remember the tent meetings with ropes down the middle designating one side for blacks and one for whites. They can still remember not being able to be a part of the neighborhood white congregation. Instead we'll build "you people" your own little church across the tracks.

One of my mentors Bro. G.P. Holt once told us that the uniting of our two fellowships would probably have to be done by the younger preachers. He said the wounds he had were just too deep. He knew it was sinful for us to be divided but he felt the emotional baggage that he brought to the table would prevent any true progress. There are so many horror stories among AfricanAmerican Christians that many have almost taken on urban legend status.

The Foy Wallace Jr. thing is also a big hindrance but it was also his vein of the RM that did the most of the early proseletyzing and mentoring of AfricanAmericans. So there is a bit of a paradox when trying to come to grips with our history in the church.

On the Dr. Evans thing... He's an awesome preacher but I doubt if he would appreciate the TD Jakes comparisons. ;)

My question is not really so much about our history of exclusion as it is about how can we better attract AfricanAmericans who are pre-Christian in the 2000's to our movement. And on a more personal note, how can I develop a multicultural congregation which is culturally relevant to my personal demographic but also attractive to whites, Mexicans, Asian etc... :D

[WileyClarkson]

Fate,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]And on a more personal note, how can I develop a multicultural congregation which is culturally relevant to my personal demographic but also attractive to whites, Mexicans, Asian etc... [/quote]

Tough one, my friend!!!!

I received a letter from a man you may know (or know of) the other day, Floyd E. Rose.  I had just finished reading his little book on women in the church and had sent him a note about my daughter who is in children's ministry.  He wasn't aware of the fact that the caucasion churches had made a step in the direction of hiring females in ministry, except for Katie Hayes.  This may be an indication of part of the problem that we all face in trying to pull Christians of all races together, and also reach out to the non-Christian, regardless of race.  We need to get to know what is going on in the different segments and then get the segments to come together.

Communications is almost everything these days.

I'm curious.  Has the church there tried forming a close alliance with a church that is 99% caucasion yet?  Maybe that would be a place to start eg: shared worship, shared ministers, shared ministry, and shared members.

Back in the mid 70's, when my wife and I were first married, we lived in a rural town in southeast Tarrant County (SE of Ft. Worth).  In that town, there were two CoC's.  One was on the east side of town (the largest church), and one was on the west side of town (the smallest church).  The largest church was very much influenced by FEW, Jr.  They even hosted a gospel meeting featuring FEW,Jr (one of his last--I think).  They were an all caucasion church.   They  loaned members and elders to help the African-American church (the west side).  However, the west-side church never came to any of the east-side churches worship or events.  Several years later, the east side allowed a small Mexican-American church that was forming to use the building for its worship services in the afternoon.  However, that mexican-american congregation, even though they almost all knew English, would not come to the east side worship in the mornings or any events.  There were still alot of hard feelings among all races at that time in that town and the churches, even though efforts were made to help.   We moved to where we live now shortly after that (about 23 years ago). Last I heard, not much had changed.

In my view, there has been a real lack of two-way communications and that has helped further the separation rather than the joining together.  Maybe by forming an alliance like I suggested, those lines of communications will improve and help in your particular area of ministry.  From what you have told us in the past, it sounds like your congregation is way ahead of some of ours down here in the style and enthusiasm of worship!

I must admit, I was really proud of Dr. Money for taking the stand he did.  For those who might not know, Floyd Rose was one of those men who was not allowed to enter ACU (then ACC) because of the color of his skin.  The church he ministers at, the Church of Christ at Pine Hill, is a church with no walls to denominational, cultural, class, race, or gender!  That is what we desperately need more of!!!

[TRL]

The comments I'm about to make are from my experience in the deep south.  These are the differences I've seen in White and Black CoC's.  For unity to take place, we must realize these differences, and work together in light of them.
First, part of the obvious distinction in white churches and black churches is style.  Stereotypically white churches are overly rational.  Black churches are emotional.  White church is quiet.  Black church is louder.  White church music is about singing the right notes.  Black church music is about singing with emotion.  White church listens to the sermon.  Black church talks back to the preacher.  These are just a few of the disctinctions.  Are we asking african-americans to give up their style to worship with us?  My guess is that we do, and they don't want to - and I don't blame them.
Second, another distinction is beliefs and doctrine.  Many white churches have moved to a more grace-centered theology over the last couple of decades.  However, many black churches still teach and preach the CoC theology of white churches from the 1950's.
Third, another difference is leadership style.  Most White churches are led by elders, with the ministers' role being decided my the elders.  Many Black churches are led by their minister in the pastor role.

[charlie]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The comments I'm about to make are from my experience in the deep south.  These are the differences I've seen in White and Black CoC's.  For unity to take place, we must realize these differences, and work together in light of them.
First, part of the obvious distinction in white churches and black churches is style.  Stereotypically white churches are overly rational.  Black churches are emotional.  White church is quiet.  Black church is louder.  White church music is about singing the right notes.  Black church music is about singing with emotion.  White church listens to the sermon.  Black church talks back to the preacher.  These are just a few of the disctinctions.  Are we asking african-americans to give up their style to worship with us?  My guess is that we do, and they don't want to - and I don't blame them.
Second, another distinction is beliefs and doctrine.  Many white churches have moved to a more grace-centered theology over the last couple of decades.  However, many black churches still teach and preach the CoC theology of white churches from the 1950's.
Third, another difference is leadership style.  Most White churches are led by elders, with the ministers' role being decided my the elders.  Many Black churches are led by their minister in the pastor role.[/quote]
I can concur with TRL's observations. I have also noticed these things. Around my neck of the woods (North-Central Florida) I would estimate about a 65-35 mix of white-black CoC members, but then you have 'black' churches with about 85-95% of their members being African-American, and white churches with similar opposite percentages.

[nerdneh]

These are just some of my own experiences in this area. I still do not know how to have a more diverse group here in the States. I have an idea, as many have said, that the history of the South and its cultural experiences have a lot to do with the situation in this part of the country.

When I was in Baton Rouge, LA in the 60's and 70's I worked as closely as I could with the brothers and sisters in the black congregation, even speaking there several times, although I think I seriously messed up their rhythm. I encouraged our folks to reach out to diverse groups and even had a few black members after awhile. One Sunday I baptized an African-American lady into Christ and received some threats from the local KKK, which was alive and well at that time.

Later, in my travels to Haiti, I met a marvelous preacher at the church of Christ in Port au Prince, Wesner Pierre. Wesner said that he had visited in Montgomery, AL in the 60's and when he tried to attend a church there was met on the steps and told, "There's a church for people like you about two miles from here." Wesner was crushed, as he had not experienced that before. He nearly bailed out of the CofC, but decided to stick around. When I was there, the congregation had over 2000 members and were some of the finest Christians I have ever met. I have not heard from him in years, and I trust he and his family are well.

I guess I am trying to say that perhaps each of us can reach out and recognize a brother or a sister without any regard to race. I had the privilege fairly recently of performing a wedding for a local Afro-American preacher, who loves the Lord and is a fine brother. He attended our congregation for a while but felt his talents and training had equipped him to work more effectively with a black congregation, which is exactly what he is now doing.

[Nicholas]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]T.D. Jakes, indeed.  He preaches 'way too much freedom in some areas and 'way too little in others for churches like ours to call him[/quote]

Examples please.  This is not my perception.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]On the Dr. Evans thing... He's an awesome preacher but I doubt if he would appreciate the TD Jakes comparisons[/quote]

Why would this be upsetting?

Nicholas.......saved by grace

Look at it this way: At the right time, while we were still helpless, Christ died for ungodly people. Finding someone who would die for a godly person is rare. Maybe someone would have the courage to die for a good person. Christ died for us while we were still sinners. This demonstrates God's love for us.

[Fate]

Julie,

We would love to have you on our P&W team!!! If you're ever in our neck of the woods (pretty funny colloquialism coming from someone who lives in the concrete jungle!! :p ) come by and holla at us! You can get directions at Metropolitan Church of Christ. We'll let you be as emotive as the Lord leads you to be! :D  Keep on keeping it real. The Lord doesn't only call for your mind, He calls for all of your heart also. Besides how can you worship in truth unless you give God authentic praise?

Janine you were right on with that explanation. ;) Several people hold Jakes to be a false prophet , not just in the COC either. Hank Henegraf "The Bible Answer Man" also says he's a false prophet. I don't agree with some of Jake's theology either, but I believe he has a great gift from God to help people through his preaching.