Christians and Alcohol

[dgdodd]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christians should only drink when it would not be a sin before God to do so.[/quote]
Booty - I don't want to start a debate but I am curious where you find that drinking alcohol is a sin before God?    Maybe I don't completely understand your post.  Are you saying that drinking alcohol is always a sin before God or Christians should not drink alcohol when the situation produces sin?  Does that make sense?

Thanks - Damaris

[Renee]

I think a Christian can have a drink but it needs to be in moderation. Not all Christians, like not all people of the world can handle it so if it is a problem for you then steer clear but if not a problem for you then I see no problem or sin in a drink. It is kinda like the meat thingy in the bible if it would cause a brother to fall then refrain from doing so when that brother is around.

Renee

[Son of a Preacher Man]

Ah, but you see Bill...  as any good student of legalism knows, there was no alcohol in wine in the 1st century.  Drinking is a sin and therefore since Jesus and his disciples drank the wine could not have had any kick to it because that would have made Jesus a sinner.

Anybody else get fed that rubish as a child?  In Sunday school?

Forget the fact that history tells us a bunch of monks invented grape juice.  Forget the fact that all the folks at the wedding feast were already blitzed when Jesus instantly fermented water into wine.  Forget all the sordid tales in the OT about what folks did when they were drunk and all the cautions against drinking.  Forget reality and truth and embrace this foolish fantasy that says there was no alcohol in wine during the 1st Century (or in the least that it had a "lower alcohol content").  To embrace that belief negates the illustration of the old/new wineskins Jesus used.  Is it any wonder we ended up questioning every aspect of our faith simply because these cats taught us lies like this one?  It was enuf to make me go   :crackup:

Okay, stepping off my SoaPbox now! But I want to know-- Did they feed you this rubish, too?

[Bill]

Son, I've heard about the non-alcoholic wine.  What lengths we go to at times to support our beliefs.

Richard, seems to me that moderation is what Christ was trying to show us.  I see Him as the most balanced person there ever was.

Spurly, remember the prescribed amount.  Best not to take the whole week's worth in one setting.

I haven't had a glass of wine in a couple of years, maybe now is the time.  Actually I prefer beer but haven't had one of them since before the last glass of wine.  Maybe I've already used up my life-time prescribed amount. :)

Have a great day everyone.  Take a little wine for the stomach.

[Richard]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Richard, seems to me that moderation is what Christ was trying to show us.  I see Him as the most balanced person there ever was.[/quote]
Agreed.
The Holy Spirit is working on/in me.  There is still much progress to be made. :p

Richard

[janine]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christians and Alcohol
Do they mix?[/quote]

Only if you put them in a blender. :bowling:

[spurly]

What is your opinion on Christians and alcoholic beverage consumption?  Do the two go together?

Kevin

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (dgdodd @ Jan. 04 2003,12:00)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christians should only drink when it would not be a sin before God to do so.[/quote]
Booty - I don't want to start a debate but I am curious where you find that drinking alcohol is a sin before God?    Maybe I don't completely understand your post.  Are you saying that drinking alcohol is always a sin before God or Christians should not drink alcohol when the situation produces sin?  Does that make sense?

Thanks - Damaris[/quote]
Damaris,

Ach and it's my accent is it now?  :alien:  Seperated by a common language once again!!

I am not adverse to a jar of Arthur's finest, (as if I could ever find it here!!), or perhaps a snifter of Brandy. So, no, alcohol or it's use is not specifically a sin in my opinion.

Now if Arthur and I were in our cups and sniffin the larder more more of the same, then sinning I would be!!  Or if I was out with the youth and I decided to "teach" them about Demon Rum by passing the jug, then you have it! Sinning again.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Christians should not drink alcohol when the situation produces sin?[/quote] would be more on the lines of where I am going. I might include when the drinking of the alcohol is the sin in and of itself, like in the cases shown above.

Now have I made it as clear as bottled muck?

By the by, your tag is a Spanish name, ¿y tu?

[TRL]

Okay, I've got to chime in on this.  
This has become a very sensitive subject for me over the past few years.  I live in a college town and see college students get wasted all the time.  I also work with teens who go to drinking parties every Friday night.  This has become our battle ground.
I know the Bible says don't get drunk.
I know it is illegal for teens to drink at all or to even have it in their possession.
I also know of many people who became alcoholics in high school! :0
I don't want to be legalistic about this - I know God thinks it is okay to drink in moderation.
However, for the young people I know, it carries with it many problems.  For one, why do they drink?  It isn't because beer or wine taste good.  It isn't with a meal.  It is simply to fit in with everyone else, to be popular or to escape from some problem.  Those can't be good reasons to drink alcohol.
I think there is a lot of strength in never drinking at all.  That is the choice that my wife and I have made.  :)

[Bill]

Not suprising, Farmboy.  Didn't Paul tell Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach?

Bill

[seekr]

Son of, I also was fed this rubbish. All it takesis a little investigating to find the truth. I was like others, thought everyone one else knew more than I did, so I bought the lie, temporarily.

Another benefit of drinking wine is that they have discovered, white wine kills the e-coli bacteria. That impresses me even further with what Paul told Timothy.

I spent years not drinking and would arrogantly announce it. I now drink a little wine and God is using this in my life to help set me free from my bondage of self-righteousness to being filled with His righteousness. I always have had a problem of others perceptions of me (kind of a human problem, only mine was great and detrimental). And this is about our relationship to God, as some may not be able to drink and others may. It is His lead.

Maurine

[spurly]

Why do some Christians have a spiritual perception of themselves that looks like this:

I don't smoke.
I don't dance.
I don't drink alcohol.
I don't use obscenity.
I don't lift my hands, clap my hands, or worship in unbiblical ways.
I don't buy lottery tickets.

Thus God must be proud of me.  Heck, I might even be his favorite son/daughter.

Kevin

[Bon Voyage]

When I have a cold, I do have a little alcohol.  Sometimes its in Whiskey form, sometimes its in Nyquil form.

[janine]

Yeah, some folks can make their keyboard sit up and beg.  Me, I'm lucky if I can spell at all, much less use the more exotic punctuation.

The prohibitions I see in the OT especially about alcohol all speak of the giving over of control of ones' self to the alcohol as being the problem.

Like, "Let the grieving and mourning ones have the alcohol, you have work to do!", and "What an idiot you would be to focus on the alcohol, it'll bite your butt, in the end!", statements sounding like that.

If the point is to unwind, I can take a little 25 mg pill, some diphenhydramine.  It's way cheaper than booze.  If the object is to have a beer with my pizza or crawfish or crabs, the are several very nice non-alcoholic beers, ales, etc., available, light and dark and everything in between.

I don't have to drink alcohol, period.  If I want the health benefits of a glass of wine - if I'm after the antioxidants - those are in non-alcoholic or de-alcoholized wines.

[Booty]

Kevin,

I did not find my choice there?

Christians should only drink when it would not be a sin before God to do so.

[dgdodd]

Thanks for making it clear Booty.   :D   That is much better.  My name actually comes from Acts 17:34, given to me by my parents.  Although, I was born after they came back from living in El Salvador.  Perhaps, they picked it up there.  

Damaris

[farmboy]

Hi ,
Any comments about the news last night and this morning about a study concerning the benefits of daily, moderate consumption of alcohol beverages?  It showed one or two drinks 3 to 4 days per week reduced heart attacks 32 percent.  And daily use reduced heart attacks 37 percent.  

About a year ago, one study showed one to 4 glasses of wine per week reduced stroke by 75 percent, if I remember right.  

These benefits, if true, are no small effect.  Of course, no one is saying to go out and start drinking.  

Just wondering what you might think.

In His Love,
Max

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (farmboy @ Jan. 09 2003,09:42)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Hi ,
Any comments about the news last night and this morning about a study concerning the benefits of daily, moderate consumption of alcohol beverages?  It showed one or two drinks 3 to 4 days per week reduced heart attacks 32 percent.  And daily use reduced heart attacks 37 percent.  

About a year ago, one study showed one to 4 glasses of wine per week reduced stroke by 75 percent, if I remember right.  

These benefits, if true, are no small effect.  Of course, no one is saying to go out and start drinking.  

Just wondering what you might think.

In His Love,
Max[/quote]
I'm headed to the Quicker Liquor today  :pray:

Kevin

[farmboy]

Hello again,
It seems that my post this morning touched a raw nerve, to some, and maybe a little anger.  Yes, I also was taught to not touch any, not so much by 'thou shalt not' but by general negative comments about drinking.  And yes, there was occasionally one who would say 'NONE'!  Even recently, I heard one say that wine in scripture was either fermented or not, as if to say that the wine Paul told Timothy to use would be non-alcoholic.

But now the question is, can we get  by that spirit of condemnation (alcohol, and the one who uses a little) and maybe be a responsible user.  Would we want to?  I think all of us would agree that the abuse of alcohol is a major problem in our society.    Would responsible use in our family situations remove that 'forbidden fruit' desire in our kids.  I have wondered that, and think that any guess would be only a guess.

Also, I am sure there would be many who wold be hurt to see others use any alcoholic drinks.  How do we deal with them, in love.  In 1 Corinthians 6:12 Paul says everything is not beneficial, even if it is permissible. :frowning:

In His Love,
Max

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (farmboy @ Jan. 09 2003,6:40)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]But now the question is, can we get  by that spirit of condemnation (alcohol, and the one who uses a little) and maybe be a responsible user.  Would we want to?  I think all of us would agree that the abuse of alcohol is a major problem in our society.    Would responsible use in our family situations remove that 'forbidden fruit' desire in our kids.  I have wondered that, and think that any guess would be only a guess.

Also, I am sure there would be many who wold be hurt to see others use any alcoholic drinks.  How do we deal with them, in love.  In 1 Corinthians 6:12 Paul says everything is not beneficial, even if it is permissible. :frowning:

In His Love,
Max[/quote]
To answer your first question, I have seen studies that say that less alcoholics come from families that use alcohol in moderation than families that are teetotaler or abusers - though I can't site those studies right now.

My family was one where alcohol was used in moderation, and neither my brothers or I are abusers.  One brother drinks occasionally, the other brother and I do not.  All personal choices that do not reflect on our faith.

As to how to handle those who would be hurt if they saw another Christian drinking, I say we have to be careful in how we use our Christian liberty.

When I was still living in NC, we had a youth revival.  The worship team we brought in believed in the liberty that they had to have an occasional drink.  After one night of the youth revival, they were at Applebees restaraunt, and one of the couples from our church saw them drinking a beer.  Luckily, they were not the type to make a federal case out of a Christian's use of liberty.  They did not think it was the smartest thing to do, and their comment was, "what if one of the students saw them".  My thought was that it might be a problem, but it might help the student learn moderation.

Just my thoughts,

Kevin

[4kidsandadog]

Good points, Kevin.  Hmm, everything I read in the Bible tells me that people will know we are His because of what we do, not what we don't do! :angel:

Karen

[susieface]

I believe there are many reasons why people drink, whether it be in moderation or not.  Some may be doing it to escape, but as far as teens go, I strictly believe they do it because they feel it is "FUN".  No other reason.  Some may think it helps them fit in, but I believe the majority do it for recreation.  Not one person I knew in high school or college did it for any other reason other than fun.  Of course I went to a christian high school and college, so all were christians and were from christian homes, so a little doing something the parents didn't want them to played into it a little, but it was mostly out of fun.  As far as the non-christian friends, the same went for them.  They did it because they thought it was fun.
 I hate to say it, but all those anti-drug and alcohol ads or programs do not deal with this aspect of it much.  There always has to be some underlying reason.
 When it stopped being fun and got stupid was when everyone quit.  I know very few from those days who still drink.
IMO
Susie

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Booty @ Jan. 04 2003,09:53)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kevin,

I did not find my choice there?

Christians should only drink when it would not be a sin before God to do so.[/quote]
Sorry about not putting your choice on the poll.  However, your explanation is a good one, and it throws it back into each individual's own hands before God.

Kevin

[Booty]

Could be, it is very common in Spanish speaking countries. But then Biblical names do tend to be.

[Son of a Preacher Man]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]For one, why do they drink?  It isn't because beer or wine taste good.  It isn't with a meal.  It is simply to fit in with everyone else, to be popular or to escape from some problem.  Those can't be good reasons to drink alcohol.
I think there is a lot of strength in never drinking at all.  That is the choice that my wife and I have made.  :)[/quote]
TRL:

I admire the decision you and your wife have made.  There is a whole lot of strength in not drinking.  

Forgive me as I share a few thoughts from near-past experience.

Why do young people drink?  Valid question.

I didn't drink until I was 21ish.  For many years I said it was because of my [legalistic] faith.  I also reasoned that beer smelled so bad, it had to taste even worse.  At the time I was a dedicated athlete. An injury ended those pursuits I quickly learned several things about myself.

1. The reason I didn't drink had nothing to do with my false perception that drinking in and of itself is a sin.  My abstinance had more to do with my quest for optimum athletic performance.  I understand what Paul meant when he said "such regulations indeed have the appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their  their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence." (Col 2:23)   My life eventually became a case and point.

2. The first time I tried beer, I liked it instantly. While studying at a buddies house, I found myself alone with nobody was around.   I pilferred a single beer (mostly because he had two refridgerators and the only thing they had was beer--stacks and stacks of beer on every shelf in both), and as I had my first beer I surprisingly discovered I loved the taste, hence ending my personal fantasy that it tasted bad.  It tasted great!  I couldn't believe something could smell bad and still taste good.  Later I learned that rum goes with this, whiskey with that, and Margaritas taste great, etc.  Some hooch used by HS and College kids doesn't even have a taste at all!  Wine was trickier because of all the different kinds, but wine coolers and other malted drinks taste like koolaid.  I'm sure for some the taste is acquired or that it never is acquired, but many people quickly find booze that tastes good to them.

3.  There can be no denying the pull to "fit in" and drink amongst teens and college students binge because... well, it's college and mommy and daddy aren't around.

4.  But this is key: escape.  We have an entire generation now that views the world in a jaded way.  The American Dream is a pipe dream and they know it!  I'm part of that bunch.  Drinking might be about perceived popularity or peer pressure for some, but, truth be told, when I abstained my teammates and classmates RESPECTED me big time!  It wasn't hard to say no and I never felt pressured and I was oh, so popular in both HS and college.  But once my life hit the reality of the world--no more athletics, no more fiance after she was raped by somebody and she couldn't bring herself to see me again--the bottle provided an escape.

Fortunately I didn't wind up AA material.  I was a binge drinker for several years though.  It's been years since I was inoxicated and I thank God everyday that he spared me the addiction.  Many bingers do not escape.  

Some drink for courage (pick-up girls, boys), some drink to forget, some drink out of boredom, and as much as I hate to admit it, I think the urge/compulsion to drink is less about fitting in than we (ministers, servants, etc.) would like to admit.  Sure, that's one reason for some, but the overall problem is much bigger.

Well... all of that was just this one jerks oppinion, for whatever it's worth.

Keep up the good work, my brother.  Each individual will drink for their own reasons... and statistically speaking, most young people will.  I understand your frustration as I deal with the same issues in my work.  Keep the faith.


SoPM

[Richard]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Not suprising, Farmboy.  Didn't Paul tell Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach?

Bill[/quote]
It's that "little" part some of us have trouble with.
I've never been very good at moderation in anything.

Richard

[Barb1957]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Son of a Preacher Man @ Jan. 09 2003,10:12)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Okay, stepping off my SoaPbox now! But I want to know-- Did they feed you this rubish, too?[/quote]
Yeah I guess, to a degree, not that everyone that heard it paid attention to it.  

What beverage is best to wash that rubbish down anyway?
:yummy:  

[seekr]

The issue about anything we do boils down to what is inside of us and where we are in our growth. Jesus said "it's not what goes into a man that makes him 'unclean'...". If our hearts are right with God and we're not smugly declaring our independence and freedom with no regard for others, then everything may be permissable. God may allow a lot in some of us because of where we are and who we have been. It isn't sin if God declares it clean. And didn't He do just that about everything? I have actually fought God over the things He has declared clean in my life, because of my past religiosity, and He has gently shown me that many things were not sin for me, and that this is what it would take to set me free and heal me.

seekr

[janine]

I'd think it was more meaningful to be known by what I do, as the Christ lives in me.... and have the things I avoid being only a side note.

[Barb1957]

Janine, gmta ... I just had the thought, "only if the Christians are well pureed" ...

(not sure how to do the little accented "e" dooey)