On visiting Otter Creek Church of Christ

[memmy]

IMHO, church is less about us worshiping God via a liturgy or "five acts" (a liturgy in its own right!) and more about our teaching and admonishing one another. I believe that when we do that, God derives more worship from that, than he would from five hundred choruses of "How Great Thou Art" or three hundred sermons.

As you said though, God derives more worship from teaching and admonishing each other. We should be doing that, whether it be in a lesson, a song, communion or even praising God dancing. (As David did).

Thanks Lee, I learn alot from you too.

Memmy

[memmy]

I convinced that we place a whole lot of importance and discussion on what happens in an hour on Sunday, and far too little on how we live our lives following Jesus the rest of the time.

IMHO.

Many of us do, but we should strive not to be like this. What I get on Sundays are what starts me out to get me through the week. That, and being on here with my brothers and sisters in Christ. I also believe that no matter what we do, when we are together, it should be for the glory and honor of God, and not our own wants and desires.

I strongly believe in community, even though it doesn't seem to come across that way on here sometimes. 

Memmy

[kanham]

I do wonder whether this is an outgrowth of the growing acceptance of the concept of "worship as a lifestyle" finally reaching its fruition in the form of bringing American 21st-century culture (our entertainment-based multimedia lifestyle) into the worship assembly.

Skip,

I think it is the opposite. It is the hyper reality that comes from thinking we "go

[tidbit]

I am convinced that we (evangelicals) have put the cart before the horse.  The focus of the 'worship service' is the sermon--the preaching of the word.

The focus of the service should be the communion service, a/k/a/ the Lord's Supper.  It is here that Christ joins us.  If we are each joined with Christ, then are we not also joined with each other? 

In the Catholic Mass and the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, the Lord's Supper is the central focus.  I think they had it right.

[memmy]

The focus of the service should be the communion service, a/k/a/ the Lord's Supper.  It is here that Christ joins us.  If we are each joined with Christ, then are we not also joined with each other? 

Tidbit, do you think it would even be better if we shared it as a common meal as they did in the first church?

Memmy

[boringoldguy]

I agree with tidbit.

Even in Churches of Christ,  communion has been displaced from its rightful position of prominence by the preaching,  and we claim to place a high importance on the observance.   Some evangelical-type churches don't even emphasize it as much as we do.

If I were in charge,   I'd replace  the sermon with a homily of no more than 10 minutes.
(Few of us have a longer attention span than that anyway.)

[memmy]

Wow BOG, we get fed so much where we meet on Sundays. I can't imagine going without that.

I guess it depends on who is delivering it maybe.

Our pastor will ask for the Holy Spirit to be the messenger and not him, and the words come from Him as to what he needs to deliver.

We have come away from there full every week, and give credit to God for that, not the preacher. We do tend to thank him for being His servant, and allowing God to work through him though.

Memmy

[Jimbob]

Except that in the Catholic mass, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist do not rival one another, both are of equal importance, neither takes attention from the other.

[DCR]

At Otter Creek, there seemed to be a bigger emphasis placed on the Lord's Supper than what is typically observed in CofCs.  Maybe, that was just the day I went.  But, the person making the Communion comments spoke for several minutes.  The words "The Supper" were projected on the screens during the comments.  His comments were moving and meaningful... and he quoted several scriptures.

Maybe that is a step in the right direction based on some of your comments.

[tidbit]

Except that in the Catholic mass, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist do not rival one another, both are of equal importance, neither takes attention from the other.

That's probably true.

[Bon Voyage]

I know it is unrealistic in a bigger church, but the Lord's supper as part of a common meal would be great for fellowship & unity.

I like small groups for instruction, I sometimes learn better that way.

[boringoldguy]

I'm pretty sure that the Lord's Supper as a meal would end up being about the menu, the quality of the cooking, and who ate how much.

I don't see any reason to think we're much better than the Corinthians.

[kanham]

I convinced that we place a whole lot of importance and discussion on what happens in an hour on Sunday, and far too little on how we live our lives following Jesus the rest of the time.

IMHO.

Phil,

I agree but doesn't how we handle that hour have a great deal of influence on what our attitude/understanding/expectation for church will be?

[tidbit]

I'm pretty sure that the Lord's Supper as a meal would end up being about the menu, the quality of the cooking, and who ate how much.

I don't see any reason to think we're much better than the Corinthians.

Aren't our children much smarter than their children were, and we smarter than they?

[Phil Wilson]

I convinced that we place a whole lot of importance and discussion on what happens in an hour on Sunday, and far too little on how we live our lives following Jesus the rest of the time.

IMHO.

Phil,

I agree but doesn't how we handle that hour have a great deal of influence on what our attitude/understanding/expectation for church will be?

I think it does. But I also think it depends on how we define "church." Is church that meeting time when we're together as community? Sure, but it's not limited to that. Church/the Body of Christ can also be small groups on a Sunday night in someone's home. Or lunch with a brother or sister. Or finding another follower of Christ sitting next to you on a plane. The Body is not limited by walls.

I'm not saying that your definition is limited to that, kanham. I'm just saying that it's very easy to put the focus of church on what happens within certain walls at a certain time, and I feel fairly certain that while important, the importance that we place on it is disproportionate to its important in the life of a follower of Jesus.

And DCR, to answer your previous question, Jason (the communion speaker) did speak longer than normal for someone doing that, but there is a strong focus on the Supper at Otter Creek.

[Jimbob]

Not to get off on a tangent, but I've been to several Catholic masses lately to better understand their practices and beliefs.  One thing I've noticed (and since read about in Catholic writings like the article Why Catholics Don't Sing) is that even though it is Mars to Pluto apart from an evangelical "concert" service, when it comes to the singing, the participation has been nearly non-existent in all but a couple I've attended (and I've varied parishes to get a more diverse picture).

OTOH, I've been impressed with the amount of participation during responsive readings, the creed, and prayers.  All areas where (imho) their practices are Biblical, but trad. CofCers cringe (don't know why?).

[tidbit]

One thing I've noticed (and since read about in Catholic writings like the article Why Catholics Don't Sing) is that even though it is Mars to Pluto apart from an evangelical "concert" service, when it comes to the singing, the participation has been nearly non-existent in all but a couple I've attended (and I've varied parishes to get a more diverse picture).

What was the conclusion--why don't Catholics sing? 

[Jimbob]

I got the title wrong, but here is the article (a book review): http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3554

[Bon Voyage]

Could this be a future progressive CofC song?

Christian, Close Your Eyes
Let That Rhythm Get Into You
Don't Try To Fight It
There Ain't Nothin' That You Can Do
Relax Your Mind
Lay Back And Groove With Thine
You Got To Feel That Heat
And We Can dance The Boogie
Share That Loaf of Bread

I Wanna Worship With You (All Night)
Dance You Into Day (Sun-day)
I Wanna Worship With You (All Night)
We're Gonna Worship The Night Away 

[Jimbob]

Fer cryin' out loud, I hope not.

[DCR]

Some CofCs already sing the Eagles song Peaceful, Easy Feeling, only with some of the words changed.  So, Jerry, you aren't that far off. 

[tidbit]

I got the title wrong, but here is the article (a book review): http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3554

Interesting. 

BTW, what's wrong with the priest saying "Good Morning"?

[Jimbob]

Good question.

[DCR]

BTW, what's wrong with the priest saying "Good Morning"?

According to the article, it makes the congregation uneasy. 

[Lee Freeman]

I'm pretty sure that the Lord's Supper as a meal would end up being about the menu, the quality of the cooking, and who ate how much.

I don't see any reason to think we're much better than the Corinthians.

Is that a reason not to try? The church didn't stop eating communion as a fellowship meal for nearly 200 years, in spite of the Corinthian abuses.

Pax.

[memmy]

Another example of putting God in charge of it all, IMO.

[Volkmar]

I know it is unrealistic in a bigger church, but the Lord's supper as part of a common meal would be great for fellowship & unity.

I like small groups for instruction, I sometimes learn better that way.

I'm pretty sure that the Lord's Supper as a meal would end up being about the menu, the quality of the cooking, and who ate how much.

I don't see any reason to think we're much better than the Corinthians.

Gary,
A "love feast" with LS would work best in a home group or house church.  

BOG,
Those can be problems, but, just the fact that individuals are having to work/coordinate together enhances the "koinonia".  Probably not a good idea to avoid something, especially something of significance, because of "problems".  "Problems" are growth opportunities.

Paul didn't tell the Corinthians to stop having their love feast, rather, he told them to clean up their act.

DCR,
Thanks for the review.


V

[boringoldguy]

Some "problems" are growth opportunities.
Others are a recognition of the intractable shortcomings of human nature.
We interpret Paul's instructions in I Corinthians differently.   I see it as the first step in the eventual decision to separate communion from a regular meal.     
He did tell them to eat at home, after all.

[Lee Freeman]

The shift from a communal meal to a sacramental Eucharist was a gradual process which took approx. 200 years, as the liturgy developed and evolved and the emphasis of communion shifted from one of a communal fellowship meal remembering Christ's death and resurrection, to a sacrificial Eucharist focusing upon the Real Presence at which only an ordained priest or bishop could officiate, and of which only duly catechized and baptized believers could partake.

If Christ initiated communion as a sit-down table meal (at the Passover) and the Corinthians observed it as a sit-down table meal (I interpret Paul's instructions to "eat at home" to mean that if all the fellowship meal meant to them was stuffing their faces, they could do that at home), then should it not be returned to that original sit-down table meal? Saying that eating it as a table meal might encourage the kind of problems Corinth experienced is akin to arguments by some people that communion should only be observed once a month, so that it doesn't become mundane or ordinary.

Pax.

[kanham]

Phil,

If I spend hours and hours focusing time and energy on that hour would it not be natural to think that it must be very very important?

If I spend money on lights, technology, sound system etc. to insure a good AM worship service then should I not expect that to influence peoples perception of church?

I can say that I don't consider that hour the most important thing but if my actions in how I treat that hour say differently, then which will people believe?

I guess what I am saying is I can define church anyway I want but until the way I approach it and treat it changes people will probably not change how they view church.

At some point we will get to how we define success in the church today though I suppose.

[samloveall]

If I spend money on lights, technology, sound system etc. to insure a good AM worship service then should I not expect that to influence peoples perception of church?

See, this thinking is one of the things that worship ministers struggle with.  As a worship leader, I do not spend money on lights, technology, sound systems, etc., to ensure a good AM worship service.  I spend money on lights so that people can see well.  i spend money on technology to find and use different ways to effectively comunicate ideas and truths in ways other than just talking at them.  I spend money on sound systems so that non-professional musicians can sound a little better, so that people can hear better and more clearly and can follow what's going on easily, and so that the audible distractions that are an inevitable part of a large group of people meeting in one room can be overcome to a certain degree.

[memmy]

And it be all to the glory of God.

I think that's wonderful.

Isn't it ironic that many can go to secular concerts, movies, and other things that are not attended solely by brothers and sisters in Christ, and we don't really look for the fault in that, but if it happens to be in a church "building," we try to find what others are doing wrong, and nit pick it apart?

Does anyone else see this as kind of strange? 

Memmy

[kanham]

Memmy,

I find it ironic that one who constantly talks about judging loves to judge others motives when they don't seem to sound like theirs.

I struggle with this in my own church setting. We work to have a good service but when our focus is engrossed in how good the service was why should we surprised that people think that is what it is all about?

That was the context of the discussion I was having with Phil in which the quote was taken.

I love the though police who come in and try to control thoughts of others while saying stop judging others activities.

[kanham]

samloveall,

I hear what you are saying. My point being that no matter how we say it, we spend a lot of time focusing on Sunday AM. I do and our worship leader does. It is the nature of the beast. I still don't see how people will expect different when that is where we focus our attention.

I was not saying it was bad, can be but doesn't have to, but it is something I know we keep in mind.

[memmy]

I'm sorry Darin, I wasn't talking about you personally at all.

I am talking about all who do this, many in my family who would not dare come to a worship service that had something they consider "entertainment" but don't have any problem going out into the world and paying for entertainment.

Sorry if you took this personally. I seriously didn't direct this at you.

I am also concerned about what is going on with you. You sure seem to have gone on the attack for some reason lately.

I am sharing my thoughts, just the same as everyone else here, but I sure don't count myself as perfect at all either.

Maybe I need to just take a break for awhile from here.

Memmy