On visiting Otter Creek Church of Christ

[kanham]

You are right. I am tired. I need to step away.

[melissaroyster]

Hello!  I just need to make a slight correction to the visitor that went to Otter Creek- I was also a visitor at OC last Sunday, the "rap" song you were  referring to was not a rap.  It was an older African American minister delievering one of his sermons and the maker of this video added music to the background and powerpointed fragments of his sermon along with pictures.  You know, it really doesn't matter if it was a rap song or not to me, I just know rumors get started so easily when people make statements based on their own interpretations of things.  Hopefully, you and I will be able to meet!  We will be visiting again Sunday. And by the way, thank you for being so willing to share all the positive experiences you had instead of just the ones you weren't so sure about. 

Hope to meet you on the journey.

MBR

[DCR]

melissa,

Thanks for the correction regarding the video at the beginning of the service.  I suppose it was the beat and style of rhythm in the background and how that sounded with the voice that sounded like "rap" to me.  I have heard of "Christian rap"... I just figured that's what it was.  I apologize for the inaccuracy.

Maybe we'll cross paths at some point.

By the way, welcome to the board. 

[Skip]

IMO, either that ol' "worship hour" better set itself apart from the rest of the hours of the week -- and in a big way -- or there's been a big wasted expenditure of time, effort, money, and opportunity.
That said, if the performances and gadgetry start getting between the audience and the God they are supposedly there to worship, something is way wrong.

[Phil Wilson]

So I'm taking it that you don't subscribe to the all of life is worship ideology, Skip?

[Skip]

So I'm taking it that you don't subscribe to the all of life is worship ideology, Skip?

No, I don't subscribe to the 'all of life is worship' ideology.
I've tried to track down the origin of that idea, and the closest I've been able to come is that the idea came into vogue when evangelicals noticed the NIV translation of Romans 12:1.

[Phil Wilson]

How would you define "Worship"?

[memmy]

So Skip, you believe that we have several different "compartments", if you will, for God.

Like one we put on when we go to a certain "building" a couple of times a week, and one we live apart from God the rest of the time?  

Do you consider Worship to be where we are giving glory to God?

Memmy

[Skip]

How would you define "Worship"?

I'd agree with the Merriam-Webster definition:
---
Main Entry: [1] wor·ship
Pronunciation: 'w&r-sh&p
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
1 chiefly British : a person of importance -- used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

[Cliftyman]

No, I don't subscribe to the 'all of life is worship' ideology.
I've tried to track down the origin of that idea, and the closest I've been able to come is that the idea came into vogue when evangelicals noticed the NIV translation of Romans 12:1.

Its in the NASB too Skip...

[Cliftyman]

I have to point out too that in Websters definition...

3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual

this has a word in the bible... its "threskia" and you will find it in James chapter 1.

The bible considers religion and worship two different things.

[memmy]

1 Corinthians 10:31 states "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it ALL for the glory of God."

I guess I assumed that the glory of God would be given as being worship to Him.

I have a hard time separating the two lives. 

Memmy 

[Skip]

No, I don't subscribe to the 'all of life is worship' ideology.
I've tried to track down the origin of that idea, and the closest I've been able to come is that the idea came into vogue when evangelicals noticed the NIV translation of Romans 12:1.

Its in the NASB too Skip...

The NASB never caught on with the evangelicals.
[edit]
As I recall, they came out about the same time; 1970s timeframe.

[Skip]

I have to point out too that in Websters definition...

3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual

this has a word in the bible... its "threskia" and you will find it in James chapter 1.

The bible considers religion and worship two different things.

That's not the question.
The question is whether the Bible suddenly began teaching a "worship lifestyle" circa 1975.

[Cliftyman]

Well thats my belief and I wasn't even alive in 1975.  I came to that belief through personal study (I grew up in the CoC and you know I never learned it there, and I still fellowship with a RM body).

Worship is an English word that is applied to many different principles in the bible... they include, praise, service, ministration for hire and in the service of God and religion.

Many of these principles are things that have no tie to a formal "worship service".

I'm trying to figure out why you want "worship" to only be something you do at given times, in given places?

Hebrew 91Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary........

Just start at the above passage and keep on reading... you'll soon find out the old way has been done away with.

[Skip]

Well thats my belief and I wasn't even alive in 1975.  I came to that belief through personal study (I grew up in the CoC and you know I never learned it there, and I still fellowship with a RM body).

Worship is an English word that is applied to many different principles in the bible... they include, praise, service, ministration for hire and in the service of God and religion.

Many of these principles are things that have no tie to a formal "worship service".

I'm trying to figure out why you want "worship" to only be something you do at given times, in given places?

Hebrew 91Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary........

Just start at the above passage and keep on reading... you'll soon find out the old way has been done away with.

First of all, the "worship lifestyle" concept is historyless.
The "discovery" of new (historyless) Christian concepts have a track record -- and not a good one.
[sorry about the poor grammar of the previous sentence]

Second, you're entering the discussion with erroneous preconceived notions.
Did I say anything about assembly being a requirement or prerequisite for worship?
{...crickets chirping...}

[memmy]

So anyways Memmy, how ya been? 

[Cliftyman]

Second, you're entering the discussion with erroneous preconceived notions.
Did I say anything about assembly being a requirement or prerequisite for worship?[/quote

Well not directly, I'm just trying to figure out if our service and daily lifestyle can't be worship, what can?

Is it a state of mind, a state of action, something we can do in one place and not in another?

I just don't understand what the restrictions could be.

[Jimbob]

So I'm taking it that you don't subscribe to the all of life is worship ideology, Skip?

No, I don't subscribe to the 'all of life is worship' ideology.
I've tried to track down the origin of that idea, and the closest I've been able to come is that the idea came into vogue when evangelicals noticed the NIV translation of Romans 12:1.

Nah, the first I heard was from teachers using the KJV, RSV, and NASB...they wouldn't touch the NIV.

[WileyClarkson]

This has been some really interesting reading. 

Bear with me a minute or two as I try the basis for what I am going to say.  Personally, I struggle all week in trying to live my life in some form or fashion that Jesus will be pleased with.  IMO, I rarily do that, not from the lack of trying, just that I am human and need support that often isn't there in my life because of job and where we live.  I get alot of support here whether anyone realizes it or not.  I work in nuclear security.  It can be a rough tough job dealing with people from all walks and all beliefs.    I have seen many forms of the lowest forms of humanity in this industry over 22 years in nuclear security.   However, I am fortunate to work with several Christians from different denominations so it isn't all bad!  We see things in our training and real life on the plant site that literally drags the soul down.  Because of my job, most weeks for five to six days a week I see my wife awake about 30 minutes in a day, if I cut my sleep to less than 5 hours a day (pretty much the norm for me these days).  The remaining 19 hours a day are spent by myself, or on the job, or some where inbetween, with some time both at work and at home to get on here and post and try to derive a little spiritual support and growth from the experience.  In the other times, I am trying to do what I can from a remote location (I live 35 miles from our church building with the closest church member living 15 miles from us)  for our church by doing the web site, and a few other things.  I look forward to the assembly each week in whatever form it takes, because it is there that WE can be with OTHERS who think similar (not exact) to US, WE worship God in that setting, WE sing praise to God and edify each OTHER , WE commune together with God, and  WE study/teach/learn/discuss God's words from the Bible that WE use to set the guidelines for OUR lives.   Most of all, it is the one event each week that  WE (my wife and I) attend TOGETHER for a few precious hours where WE sing together, WE hold hands while praying together, WE eat the LS together, WE listen together to a lesson presented by a very capable teacher,  WE teach children together or WE attend an adult Bible class together, and WE fellowship together with our brothers and sisters in Christ whom WE only get to see once a week. 

Now, in all of the above, if a person spends alot of time and effort trying to put together something that brings the WE in that big room or area into a tighter togetherness (via lighting, special songs, special lesson, special way of celebrating the Lord's Supper, visual media, etc) with a singleness of thought directed at I AM , isn't that important?  Otter Creek has something that brings people to that singleness of thought and purpose for a short period of time.  The WE  becomes focused on  I AM and at the same time, the
WE is edified by the teaching, singing, etc.  In this decade, the WE are visual/audible learners who are becoming more visual at an alarming rate and that has to be considered as the WE gather in the assembly to jointly worship/praise/celebrate/remember OUR Lord.   

Paul, guided by the Holy Spirit, said "don't forsake assemblying with the saints."  He didn't say do this, this, and this, and don't do that, that, or that.    IMO,  whatever it takes to keep the WE focused on I AM is important.  The assembly worshipin Scriptrue is flexible and not patternisti.  So, IMO, there is nothing set in stone except the WE,  I AM ,  and the Lord's Supper, and even that has some flexibility.

[WileyClarkson]

Mellisa,

It was an older African American minister delievering one of his sermons and the maker of this video added music to the background and powerpointed fragments of his sermon along with pictures. 

I am curious about the above.  Last year at Stream, we watched a video similar to what you are describing.  The African-American minister did his sermon (almosted sounded like RAP) by saying nothing but names for God, jesus, the Holy Spirit that he found in Scripture.  It was an awesom sermon.  I'm curious if maybe that was what was shown there.  I have been trying to get a copy of the video along with a transcript of the sermon.

[memmy]

First of all Wiley, thanks so much for sharing that!

Worship is considered by some to only be a time when we gather together on a certain day or a set time we gather together. I truly believe that we, of course can't focus on Him solely at every waking minute. This world has just gotten in the way of that too much in this day and age.

My belief is that worship means to express praise and devotion to God, which can be done in just in about every avenue of our life.

When we are on our long drive to work, (as I drive about 20 minutes each way), we can worship Him, by singing, praising God,  praying and thanksgiving. It is something of a lifestyle we can form a habit to do things such as this. We are asked to "Pray without ceasing". I believe this is geared towards this way of thinking. Anytime we "Come near to God, and He comes near to you". James 4:8.

As, we have a tough situation, we pray, and trust Him. We have a wonderful exciting situation, we pray and praise Him in thanksgiving. We see someone who needs Him desparately, we pray that God touch that person with someone to cross their path, could be even us, but someone to touch their heart with God's love to be shown to them that they need God to get through these things and to know that He will guide them through it, and to pray that it will be Him in us that they see, and not us.

I see any time we express our hearts to God as a form of worshipping Him. That being all of our trust is in Him at the time we are in any circumstance we come to.

When Mary Magdelene and Mary came across Jesus after they had found the tomb empty, they stopped right there and "fell at His feet and worshipped Him."

Where we meet on Sundays for corporate woship, (worshipping as a group), we don't have anything fancy for our "set up". We meet in a YMCA gym. We have hard folding chairs to sit in, we have tall ceilings with bright lights that can distract from the "mood" of the things we are doing. In the summer there is a loud fan at the back door sucking the hot air out, because we don't have air conditioning. In the winter we have an extremely loud blowing furnace blaring in the back of the gym. People have to set up everything at about 7:00 a.m. and are there tearing it down at 12:30-1:00 in the afternoon. Most of the time everyone pitches in to help with tear down. We have a storage trailer outside that everthing gets loaded onto until the next week.

That being said, there is a place in scriptures that says that we no longer need to meet in a temple or a certain place to be worshipping Him. That we can worship right where we are, anywhere. Yes, there is also in Hebrews where we are told not to forsake meeting together too. My point is still that we should all strive to make our lives a "living sacrifice" to God in all we do, not just at a certain time, in a certain place. Jesus dwells in our hearts, and the more we know that the Holy Spirit is the gift He gave us when He left this earth, stays with us, no matter where we go in a day, the more we will truly devote our time and energies, even if we are cleaing someone elses toilets, to do so to the best of our abilties, to serving God and giving our best to Him, because we are a representative of His, the better off we all will become.

Otter Creek has been blessed tremendously in how they can bless others with their corporate worship. The only problem I could see is if they didn't give all the credit to God in their blessings. I don't see that as described from those who have visited there.

Does anyone out there understand what I am trying to get across?  

Memmy

Memmy

[peck]

Memmy,
You are coming in loud and clear..Good ol common sense with a faith that I wish to achieve...

DCR,
My wife and I try to make Madison on Sundays,occassionally...but at times we live too far to make it on time...So,4th ave and Otter are our stopping places..

Awesome is all I can say about Otter Creek..We have attended 2 services since their move but missed the one you were present..

The last one we attended was when Bro Sanders took charge..Women were used as a witness to the glory of God..One gave us a drama of Jesus at the well...2 provided us with the results of the great program of helping addicts recover..Their witness was awesome...

The large screens bring so much reality to the message being displayed..I can still see that knife they used to circumcise...YYYiiikke..I would never have been a Jew convert..

The friendlinish of Otter was outstanding....

I understand how each one of us can desire a different worship style..I'm 71 and been in the CoC 71 years..I know us and have no problem worshiping with any branch of the COC..

But tears come to my eyes when I see my brethren worshiping from the heart and displaying acts of love ...hugging one another...being joyful in their spirit..Singing 1st class with the harmony in the hearts as God has given them talent...I like ol men just trying to lead but thank God....We in the CoC can now hear the human voice at it's best with professional worship leaders..

I just can't say enough about Otter..The inspiration that comes from Otter holds in my heart so that my daily walk is better..No more righteousness comes from Otter than the Anti's(which I was from)...but the worship style is important to the community..Worship style does not take away our righteousness nor adds to it...but for me personally,I'm loving the change...

You sound like a great guy...I met Phil the other day in the sound room...a lot younger than I thought...

Just my own opinions everyone..We all speak our minds here..It doesn't bother me to get rebuttals..I'm no theologian..

God bless you all,Peck 

[memmy]

I thank God so much for you Peck!

Being that you are a "Fatherly age" to me, I value your opinion very much.

You give me much encouragement to know that there are some still that can grow as you have, and even if they don't like the changes, we can accept each other as Brothers and Sisters in Him!

God Bless you. 

Memmy 

[Volkmar]

The shift from a communal meal to a sacramental Eucharist was a gradual process which took approx. 200 years, as the liturgy developed and evolved and the emphasis of communion shifted from one of a communal fellowship meal remembering Christ's death and resurrection, to a sacrificial Eucharist focusing upon the Real Presence at which only an ordained priest or bishop could officiate, and of which only duly catechized and baptized believers could partake.

If Christ initiated communion as a sit-down table meal (at the Passover) and the Corinthians observed it as a sit-down table meal (I interpret Paul's instructions to "eat at home" to mean that if all the fellowship meal meant to them was stuffing their faces, they could do that at home), then should it not be returned to that original sit-down table meal? Saying that eating it as a table meal might encourage the kind of problems Corinth experienced is akin to arguments by some people that communion should only be observed once a month, so that it doesn't become mundane or ordinary.

Pax.

Lee,

Thanks for your input...saved my keyboard some pounding.

V

[ConnieLard]

DELETED

[Lee Freeman]

The concept of a believer's life as worship is there, no matter what translation you use:

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (KJV)

I appeal to you therefore,brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. (NRSV)

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. (NKJV)

Think of God's mercy, my brothers, and worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings, by offering your living bodies as a holy sacrifice, truly pleasing to God. (JB)

That last quotation is from the Jerusalem Bible, a Roman Catholic translation from the 1960s. Hardly evangelical. And the Roman Catholic New American Bible's commentary on Romans 12:1 reads:

The Mosaic code included elaborate directions on sacrifices and other cultic observances. The gospel, however, invites believers to present their bodies as a living sacrifice.

This seems to jive well with Jesus' teaching to the Samaritan woman that:

the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. . . . But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him.

No longer do people have to go to Mount Gerazim or the Temple and perform certain worship rituals-God will now be worshiped "in spirit and in truth." But wait! We must go to church and perform certain worship rituals? Does that make sense? Not to me it doesn't.

Nowhere in the New Testament can I find a verse commanding us to assemble together to worship. I see a lot of reasons for assembling, but curiously, that one is missing.

I suspect that people began to notice this concept only recently because for 1900 years we had all been taught the idea that "worship" is only what takes place for an hour on Sundays. But as people grew in grace and spiritual maturity, we began to notice concepts in scripture we had been blind to before. That's why two or more people can often read the same passage and come to totally different interpretations of it.


Pax.

[memmy]

That was a great post Lee!

That's the place in scripture that I was talking about:

the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. . . . But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him.

Thanks for posting that.

Memmy

[melissaroyster]

Hey Wiley,
Just got in from Nashville, just got your question.  I wish I could quote to you exactly what the minister said, but I definately remember "HE'S MY JESUS" after every thing he said.  It just did not sound like a "rap" to me-I would almost describe it as more black pentecostal than anything.  It was great.  Maybe if you got on to Otter Creek's website you could download last sunday's sermon.  It was the very first thing.  I think it came from a series of videos called "Connecting" or something to that effect.  I will try to find out for you.  Have a great day!  Melissa

[melissaroyster]

Wiley,
I have had no luck in finding this video/transcript for you!  The word "ignighter" is coming to mind instead of connecting video.  Who knows, I could be totally wrong!  Somebody help!  I have OCD, I cannot sleep until we find this transcript!   

Melissa Royster

[melissaroyster]

OKAY, HALF WAY THERE.  GO TO simplyyouthministry.com    problem is... you have to purchase the videos.  But I have seen another one of these also at Otter Creek...it is called Lonely PeopleI believe.  The video is set to the song This is for all the lonely people... Since I am so young... ,I am not sure who sings the song.  Is it Crosby, Stills and Nash?  Anyway, great resource for any church and well worth the money.  The OCD has subsided, and I can now go eat supper with my family.

Melissa ::smile::Royster

[marc]

Lonely People was sung by America, I believe.

[melissaroyster]

My husband is the one who just told me it was CSand N!  Then as soon as I posted it, he said it was America!  We stand corrected!   Glad to know you are up to par on your tunes ::playingguitar::Melissa

[marc]

ex-dj. 

[twd]

ex-dj. 

Me, too.  Scary.