On visiting Otter Creek Church of Christ

[Jimbob]

Proponents of "style" changes would say it's an acknowledgement that content, not style is what the Scriptures are specific about.  You know, the whole form follows function, be culturally relevant without changing the message sort of thing.

[Skip]

Wiley,

I think what you describe can be said of many (most?) large mainstream CofCs nowadays.  In many cases, a spectrum of views and comfort zones exists even within the same congregation.  For church leaders, it becomes a balancing act between appealing to the conservatives versus the progressives in the congregation.

I find it amuzing that the CoC, whose primary objective is to restore the first century church, feels the need for evolving worship styles.  It's an admission that maybe we never got back to the first century, and we don't intend to go back to the first century any time soon.

Tidbit, tidbit, tidbit.
Don't you know that its about unity, not about restoration...?

[Skip]

Proponents of "style" changes would say it's an acknowledgement that content, not style is what the Scriptures are specific about.  You know, the whole form follows function, be culturally relevant without changing the message sort of thing.

Given the widely divergent cultures of the NT, it would seem to be a glaring omission that the NT fails to bother with the concept of cultural relevance.
Either a glaring omission... or a non-issue.
I suppose there will always be those around trying to "fix" the Gospel; to give the Gospel wide appeal. America does have an abundance of efforts to "fix" the church...

It makes one wonder how the notoriously inflexible Catholic Church managed to spread the Gospel across many divergent cultures.
Maybe the Gospel is already cross-cultural?
Could God really have been that smart...?

[normfromga]

A lot of us Boomers rebelled against our parents' values, and now our kids are rebelling against ours.  It is quite natural.

That may be the case for some, but for me, I would have much rather been able to have felt as if I didn't need to "move" my family at all.

I would have loved to have not been made out to be as someone rocking the boat, and it would have made it much easier if I didn't feel God said there is more, and you are missing out.

I never set out to be rebellious in my moving away from the traditional "norm", and I seriously doubt those truly seeking God who have left where they were "comfy" but with a feeling there is more to this whole thing called life. Most who are truly seeking God more, are doing so for Him, not as a rebellion .

I guess I should just speak for myself, but those are my thoughts.

Memmy

I apologize for using the term "rebelled

[Jimbob]

I confess, I did have to read it twice to get the right intonation.  Then it made perfect sense. 

[Phil Wilson]

Yeah, although bolding might have helped on the first read through... ;-)

[normfromga]

Yeah, although bolding might have helped on the first read through... ;-)

But that would be like connecting the dots in a stereogram...

[Phil Wilson]

Well, of course. ("Stereogram"?)

[peck]

 I wonder which of the 1st century christian churches is perfect enough to be our standard...

Is there any record of the way corporate worship was carried out precisely in the scriptures...

God bless,Peck

[WileyClarkson]

Peck,

I suspect you already know the answer to that question 

I have always found it interesting that some think we can re-establish the original way the 1st Century church worshiped in the corporate assembly because that concept did not truely catch hold for a long time.  In the 70 years give or take from Pentecost, the church went through various evolving stages:
     1) from a small, family based house church concept to a larger, multiple family/friends house based concept,
     2)from an everyday style of meeting together to a once a week style of meeting together,
     3) from a no appointed elder over any of the house churches for a while after Pentecost with women being acknowledged as "benefactors" and deacons in the house churches, to a centralized eldership over the numerous house churches to an appointed "head bishop" over the eldership at the start of the second century, 
     4) no clear indication in scripture of the exact form, format, etc, of the assembly,with women prophecying, praying, teaching, and serving as "benefactors" and deacons  in the 1st 30years to women being silent in the presence of men the assembly and moved to a much lower status than in the first half of the 1st Century church by the end of the 1st Century
     5)  by about 130 AD, change the Lord's Supper from a full meal to a separate event referred to as the Eucharist and then having a full meal without the LS after the conclussion of the assembly.
     6)  Until the destruction of the Temple, many Jewish Christians were still holding to the Jewish feasts and celebrations, and making sacrifices in the Temple.

Out of all those changes, what is the true 1st Century church concept that we keep trying to get back to.  BTW, most of what I have learned about "church in the 1st Century" has come from my study og gender!

I will have to agree with Skip on the Baby boomer group being major a part of this.  However, in our congregation the largest group wanting change is about equally split between the oldest part of the baby boomers and the younger part of the Senior Citizens group.   It then filters in various degrees downward in the age groups.  The generation X (or whatever it is called) seems to have a more extreme split between the two sides, with very few in the middle ground between the two extremes, depending on their background, original church when being raised, schooling, parents, etc.  Plus, even the ultra conservative have their wants as far as contemporary worship goes.  The issues seem to be mixing some.

[DCR]

Here's something I've noticed that is indicative of the trends going on in our fellowship... at least in areas that are densely populated with CofCs (i.e. Nashville):

Church A - conservative, traditional congregation; adversed to change and still pleading the traditional cause of stomping out what are believe to be false doctrines and unauthorized practices in the church.

Church B - moderate, mainstream;  assemblies are fairly traditional over all but not necessarily rigid and without some changes.  Visiting congregants from Church A still feel comfortable in the assembly, over all.  But, there is a noticeably different emphasis in teaching and attitudes of the members at Church B.

Church C - progressive, cutting-edge; assemblies include some things not done in traditional CofCs.  Visitors from Church A are not comfortable with certain things done in assembly.  However, many visitors from Church B are accepting of things in the assembly that Church A folks are not.

So, what we have is this... Church A does not fellowship Church C because Church C is too liberal.  However, most members of Church A are willing to fellowship Church B.  Many members of Church B, however, are willing to fellowship with open arms those in Church C.

So, Church A fellowships Church B.  Church B fellowships Church C.  But, Church A does not fellowship with Church C.

Names have been changed to protect the innocent. 

That's just something I've noticed.

[marc]

I wonder which of the 1st century christian churches is perfect enough to be our standard...

Is there any record of the way corporate worship was carried out precisely in the scriptures...

God bless,Peck

I think that church reenactors are in many ways similar to Civil War reenactors.  They take meticulous care to recreate all the details that are convenient to recreate, the most obsessed of them tend to not have much respect for those who do not meet the standards that they themselves have set, and they sometimes forget that what was appropriate in one century may not be appropriate in another.

Oh, and they don't use real bullets or cannonballs, but they still make a lot of noise!   

[Arkstfan]

DCR, what you see is easier in a metro area because of mobility. If I'm at an "A" I can move to a B or a C. If I'm at a B I can move more or less "progressive". If I am at C I probably already agree with what they are doing. Chances are decent a congregation I like is close by maybe closer than what I currently drive.

Now in rural areas you will find "A" congregations easily. You can find some "B" congregations but a "C" would be rare.  The reason is that a "B" congregation is a compromise in most cases and being a "B" would mean the leadership has balanced the different wants/needs.

Now a "C" in those areas is a tough deal. I know of one and they did lose some members as they shifted and those they lost are making long drives to "suitable" congregations. Many congregations in rural areas simply won't make that big transition because it creates such a hardship.

[WileyClarkson]

DCR and ark,

Living in one of those rural areas, I agree.  I think DCR is right on the money for the urban churches.  I think Ark is right on the money for the rural churches.  I have been rural for 28  (drive 35 miles to be a part of it).  We are a part of an almost urban church situation now.  We have lived through that a-b-c thing locally in the form of a-b because there is no c.  In the a-b, it actually becomes a "a-ab-b".  In Granbury, we would be the considered a "C" style church by all the other congregations but we actually fall into a "B+" if we realy want to get carried away    The most radical to the conservative side will not fellowship with us but will fellowship with churches in the middle.  Unfortunately, the middle won't fellowship with us either.  However, we keep picking up members from both churches trying to escape the hard line positions that the other churches take.  However, we will fellowship with all the churches when they will allow it.

Interesting formual to describe the CoC churches in a given area.

[DCR]

I wonder which of the 1st century christian churches is perfect enough to be our standard...

Is there any record of the way corporate worship was carried out precisely in the scriptures...

God bless,Peck

I think that church reenactors are in many ways similar to Civil War reenactors.  They take meticulous care to recreate all the details that are convenient to recreate, the most obsessed of them tend to not have much respect for those who do not meet the standards that they themselves have set, and they sometimes forget that what was appropriate in one century may not be appropriate in another.

Hmm... that is an interesting concept and good point.

"church reenactors"

[Phil Wilson]

I wonder which of the 1st century christian churches is perfect enough to be our standard...

Is there any record of the way corporate worship was carried out precisely in the scriptures...

God bless,Peck

I think that church reenactors are in many ways similar to Civil War reenactors.  They take meticulous care to recreate all the details that are convenient to recreate, the most obsessed of them tend to not have much respect for those who do not meet the standards that they themselves have set, and they sometimes forget that what was appropriate in one century may not be appropriate in another.

Oh, and they don't use real bullets or cannonballs, but they still make a lot of noise! 

Brilliant. A perfect analogy

[DCR]

To carry the analogy even further... there are Civil War reenactors... and, then there are modern-day real soldiers who have all the latest technology and procedures.

Does God want us to be 1st Century reenactors?  Or, does He want us to be the 21st Century real thing?

[normfromga]

Now a "C" in those areas is a tough deal. I know of one and they did lose some members as they shifted and those they lost are making long drives to "suitable" congregations. Many congregations in rural areas simply won't make that big transition because it creates such a hardship.

But surely the shifty congregation made up the loss by gaining, and retaining, more converts?

Isn't that the main reason for the shift?

[Phil Wilson]

Now a "C" in those areas is a tough deal. I know of one and they did lose some members as they shifted and those they lost are making long drives to "suitable" congregations. Many congregations in rural areas simply won't make that big transition because it creates such a hardship.

But surely the shifty congregation made up the loss by gaining, and retaining, more converts?

Isn't that the main reason for the shift?

I think it might be for some, norm, but I think many just have a serious disconnect between the theology they see practiced by Church A and what Scripture says. I do, but maybe that's just me.

[Arkstfan]

That congregation teetered on the brink of collapse for a bit and then started growing.

Most of the growth has come from people with no church background or virtually none. You know... THE LOST.

[normfromga]

To carry the analogy even further... there are Civil War reenactors... and, then there are modern-day real soldiers who have all the latest technology and procedures.

Does God want us to be 1st Century reenactors?  Or, does He want us to be the 21st Century real thing?

I think that He wants us to be 21st Century soldiers using the authentic weapons of the First Century church.  (Eph 6:10-17)

[Skip]

To carry the analogy even further... there are Civil War reenactors... and, then there are modern-day real soldiers who have all the latest technology and procedures.

Does God want us to be 1st Century reenactors?  Or, does He want us to be the 21st Century real thing?

I think that He wants us to be 21st Century soldiers using the authentic weapons of the First Century church.  (Eph 6:10-17)

It's probably way past time to replace that old cross with a nuclear weapon... 

[Arkstfan]

Wiley my guess is that you'll move further into the C category. Once you've been disfellowshipped and liberated by that not bothering you it gets easier to do what you believe is right rather than worrying about what other think of you.

The church I grew up in had been very active in area events. We did Bible Bowls and such with churches in the county. There were five congregations within 20 miles of our building that we interacted with.

Today the closest congregation that will do anything with them is 75 miles away in a college town (public university). The benefit though is by associating with that congregation the kids now have a fledgling support network in place when they go off to college. Last time I had a chance to visit with the preacher he told me that has been a huge blessing and they are seeing fewer kids fall away from church when they go to college, so blessings can come from the unexpected.

[tidbit]

Here's something I've noticed that is indicative of the trends going on in our fellowship... at least in areas that are densely populated with CofCs (i.e. Nashville):

Church A - conservative, traditional congregation; adversed to change and still pleading the traditional cause of stomping out what are believe to be false doctrines and unauthorized practices in the church.

Church B - moderate, mainstream;  assemblies are fairly traditional over all but not necessarily rigid and without some changes.  Visiting congregants from Church A still feel comfortable in the assembly, over all.  But, there is a noticeably different emphasis in teaching and attitudes of the members at Church B.

Church C - progressive, cutting-edge; assemblies include some things not done in traditional CofCs.  Visitors from Church A are not comfortable with certain things done in assembly.  However, many visitors from Church B are accepting of things in the assembly that Church A folks are not.

Of course, everybody knows the 'B' congregations are the ones that are right, right?

[peck]

You guys are great...Religion makes sense just by observing your minds...No need to agree..Just a need to have mutual respect and tolerance among us...That is unity in itself...There is peace here..

Phil,
My wife cares little about message boards and religious battles..So,she has no idea that we are even talking about Otter Creek...but today,as we were eating..She just said out of the blue..Otter Creek is a good church..We were not even talking about religion..I thought to myself,that is a great compliment to your congregation...

God bless,Peck

[peck]

DCR,
Come to think of it..Maybe the church has been in a civil war since it's beginning...A lot of us use the bible as a gun to kill the spirit of another believer...

Carter House and Carnton plantation in Franklin is an excellent insight to see how a civil war can be horrible...Seeing the blood of the soldiers still on the floors and the bullet holes still in the buildings...

It's time to stop using the bible as a gun and lift up our true standard....with love replacing the bullets we fire at other believers...

You are an excellent mentor..even for old people..hehe..

God bless,Peck

PS..Wylie...good post with a lot of meat in it..

[memmy]

Wow good thoughts all!

Marc that was a cool analogy of the civil war, then:

DCR

To carry the analogy even further... there are Civil War reenactors... and, then there are modern-day real soldiers who have all the latest technology and procedures.

Does God want us to be 1st Century reenactors?  Or, does He want us to be the 21st Century real thing?

I believe we are born in the war, and as the war intensifies, we need to:
1)armor ourselves continually (in prayer, with the Word, in praise and thanksgiving).
2) ready our troups for the battle in whatever way the battle can be won!  

All of the equipment comes from God anyways, why not use it all for His glory and honor?

Memmy

[Lee Freeman]

As Pogo said in WWII "We has seen the enemey and they is us!" Christians with our constant doctrinal battles, reformations, counter-reformations, splits and heresies, are often our own worst enemies. How's a divided army supposed to conquer the world for its General (Christ)?

Pax.

[normfromga]

Our problem is that after we circle the wagons, we tend to shoot towards the center... 

[kalen]

So, Church A fellowships Church B.  Church B fellowships Church C.  But, Church A does not fellowship with Church C.

Here's the kicker: being Church C with a Church A family unit....

[Phil Wilson]

If people are in the Nashville area and don't have previous plans for this Sunday night, I'd invite any of you to come to Otter Creek at 6 PM for our Easter Celebration service. A great time of worship has been put together by the team and the band and chorus sounded great at the rehearsal last night.

If any of you from this board make it then or in the morning, come up to the tech booth and introduce yourself to me. I'd love to meet any of you.

Peace.

[normfromga]

You should have posted you invite at the Opryland Hotel for the Lads to Leader's deligates.

It would undoubtedly be an educational and edifying experience for many.

[spurly]

If I spend money on lights, technology, sound system etc. to insure a good AM worship service then should I not expect that to influence peoples perception of church?

See, this thinking is one of the things that worship ministers struggle with.  As a worship leader, I do not spend money on lights, technology, sound systems, etc., to ensure a good AM worship service.  I spend money on lights so that people can see well.  i spend money on technology to find and use different ways to effectively comunicate ideas and truths in ways other than just talking at them.  I spend money on sound systems so that non-professional musicians can sound a little better, so that people can hear better and more clearly and can follow what's going on easily, and so that the audible distractions that are an inevitable part of a large group of people meeting in one room can be overcome to a certain degree.

Sam - great thoughts.  Keep up the good work.

[glg]

Worship is not entertainment.

When we worship God, we are not the audience. We are not even spectators. We are supposed to be participants. God is the audience! Our worship is directed heavenward, and that is why we don't applaud each other.

Picture this scene: "That was a wonderful prayer, brother Tom, Dick, or Harry ... and sister Bertha, Sally, or Suzie looked so godly while taking the fruit of the vine; ... let's give them a big hand." (Thunderous applause.) Nobody is thinking about Jesus.

We come together as the body of Christ to worship, honor, venerate, serve, and reverence the God of heaven through Jesus. We don't gather with tooting, banging, strumming, and bell-ringing to amuse one another.

Our worship is toward God. "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Matt. 4:10). "The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23-24).


excerpt from:
"The Bell Choir " By John Brown

[twd]

I've heard this idea of God being the audience all my life, but I question it.  Does God sit on the heavenly throne watching and listening as we perform, and then applaud or boo at the end depending on how well we've done?