Thought Provoking Quote

Didn't Edward Fudge come from  the anti-class group with Gene Shelburne, Dallas Burdette, and Norman Gipson?

[seekr]

This is a really good quote and it is true that at this point, the church repels people as opposed to bringing them in, with all the fighting over the rules. I have spoken to many who are disgusted with "Christians" they see and the hypocrisy displayed. It is only our love being shown that will draw them in, not how much of a handle we THINK we have on truth.

seekr

[OldDad]

Arkstfan,

Good word, I always appreciate your thoughts.  Also, I'm sure it must be tough for a "State" fan to have to speak of the football traditions of Nebraska and Oklahoma to make a point!  :D

Not to mince words, but isn't a demand for conformity a "power play"?  As one who has had "control issues" in the past, I know enforcing conformity can be a test of loyalty, making sure that "those who are with us are more than those who are with them..."

OD

[Arkstfan]

Maybe it is best said that they work hand in hand. The power grubbers take advantage of the herd mentality. While herd mentality requires power to enforce the standard.

[janine]

Most recent similar situation I was involved in did not come to a good end.  Didn't come to any end, really.

Blew up a small-but-lively-and-growing church, leaving only Mrs. Main Power-Behind-the-Scenes, a very warped lady... and perhaps one other poisonously divisive, dangerously ignorant man, who finds it easy to stir up evil using said woman's "power".  When you tack on the family members of these two people, plus one or two strays, there you have your entire congregation.

As many left as stayed, because the men who claim to run the business of the church in that place would not hold the warped lady and the poisonous man to any accountability for problems they continuously caused and wouldn't repent of.  (The woman is wife or sister-in-law or aunt to pretty much the whole congregation as it exists now; the man is brother or brother-in-law or uncle to just about everyone.)

Other than prayer, of course, the only other things I can think of to do involve staying with the group having the problem, which I wasn't able to do.  Also, the only other things I can think of involve getting the people around the power-mad one to see the trouble and address it, which didn't work for me recently... but I still think it's a valid method, since only a total megalomaniac would see everyone around him disagreeing with him, & not see that something might be wrong.

[nerdneh]

Not sure dj, could it be Richard's Theology of Leadership or the standard business text on this by Robert Bramlett (Branson???), entitled something like Dealing with Difficult People?

Janine, wow, sounds like the infamous church at Dysfunction Junction. More of the old "comparing ourselves by ourselves which is not wise" as Paul writes in 2nd Corinthians. When we lose the ability to see ourselves mirrored in the Word, as James suggests we need to do, we lose the ability to let the Lord work on us.

[OldDad]

Received this today in Edward Fudge's gracEmail.  Rang my bell...

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Too often, lust for power disguises itself as zeal for orthodoxy and good people are destroyed in the name of "truth." Such conduct repels potential believers who observe it and, I am convinced, grieves both our Savior and the Father who sent him into the world.
[/quote]

OD

[Rocketman]

No Edward came from the non-institutional group and from the same hometown as me.  The majority of these folks believe Edward has gone off the deep-end.  

I'd highly recommend Edwards auto-biography titled Beyond the Sacred Page  In this he describes his spiritual journey to where he is today.  I found it fascinating but we have the same roots both as former NI and the same geographic roots too.

[Arkstfan]

I agree with the quote to a degree.

I don't think power is the sole root of the drive to orthodoxy nor the single correct pattern of worship.

The core though is that people despise what is different and non-conforming. Thinking is not highly regarded either people demand "pat" answers.

When you confront people with a concept of Christ accepting a style of worship that is different than their own the natural inclination is to believe that the other claims superiority because there can be only one true path.

When you tell people that these beliefs are essential and all these other things are matters of opinion, liberty, and preference they are unwilling to accept that because they hold the opinions and preferences to be truths.

What football team to root for is a matter of preference, now move to Lincoln, Nebraska and tell people you prefer the Oklahoma Sooners. How to best operate the welfare system or the public schools is a matter of opinion yet you can find people prepared to argue with full vigor not that they disagree with your opinion but that you are wrong and must have something wrong with you to not see what is clearly the truth. It is a matter of liberty to argue that the government is approaching the issue of terrorism in the wrong manner but people will try to silence you as anti-American for your disagreement.

Now this natural inclination may be used by those seeking power but the root problem is the demand for conformity.

[janine]

We can turn some pretty silly things into a Shibboleth/Sibboleth.

A lot of it boils down to the acceptance/exclusion issues surrounding the urge for conformity, that's true.

However, when it comes to the actual mechanics of how that's all played out in "real life", it translates to "power, power, who's got the power?"  Who's got the "manna", the "chutspah", the "mojo", the "machismo", who's got "it"?  And how much are we willing to do to conform or push others to?

[janine]

Yup.

[nerdneh]

My experience with power persons, control freaks, etc. is that they are convinced their vision of Christianity is the only one. No matter how narrow their view is, they have this sense that if folks would just follow them, all would be well. They may indeed have security issues, several power brokers I have known have definite problems with their self-image.

By and large, every power user I have known is nearly blind to this condition in his or her own life. One recent encounter I have had, with one of the most charming and yet destructive users of power I have known, has left me about absolutely frustrated on how to communicate this with him. Over twenty some persons, perhaps more, left the church directly because of his controlling ways, yet he protests to this day that he is only trying to serve the Lord and sees no reason to change.

Any ideas?

[david johnson]

friends:

i'm really scanning my memory cells for something i read a few years back about power-maybe some of you can help.

here are the jumbled ideas-
some people grab power by 'holding court', dominating conversation to guide everything to their 'spin' and look authoritative.
some intimidate or bully their way in.
others have power by virtue of position.
a few are naturally powerful.
many have only the power they convince others to give to them.

does any of that sound familiar?
do you know congrgational leaders in each category?

is this from the book 'winning by intimidation'?
looking forward to answers, all i have are questions.

dj

[mike]

I have suffered at lot at the hands of those who must be in control. I am ashamed to say that I learned a lot of control techniques in my early years, in order to cope with life.

God forgive me for the damage I probably caused others without ever even recognizing it. And . . . praise God that he showed me these tendencies in myself so that I could repent and let him change me!

In his book, The Control Freak (Tyndale, 2000), Les Parrott said:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The soul of control is fueled by anxiety and nurtured by feelings of extreme vulnerability and a fragile self-confidence.[/quote]

From my perspective, the only thing that will change a control freak is receiving and comprehending grace.

Mike
:D